439 réponses à ce sujet

[JackofStaves]

Destroy. The goal all along was to stop the Reapers. Not assimilate, make friends with, control, or coexist with.

Sometimes it really is just as simple as, "Them or us".

[Jane Shepard]

My first choice is Synthesis. Because I didn't want to kill EDI and the Geth. And it was the way to make peace between organics and synthetics.

Control is my second choice (with the same character), because with Shepard as a leader the Reapers also begun to help all survivors and protect them. EDI and the Geth are also alive. Shepard lives, despite the fact she is not a human anymore.

Destroy and Refuse are not for my Shepard. She can't kill if her enemy doesn't attack her and others, or if he doesn't defend himself. Also she can't turn back and loose everything. And after all the Catalyst was right about many things.

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

Giving Shepard the chance to destroy the Reapers, and according to its given beliefs that organics would be doomed without the Reapers does not seem very much like a protection of life to me.

We don't know what his programming is. Why would he change what he's been doing? The whole idea behind the system is the elimination of all the specimens before new relevant data can be collected. The calculation is going to yield the same results if he's using the same data and method.

Leviathan confirms his purpose.  To preserve organic life at all costs.  Until Shepard that required a harvest.  The Crucible and Shep finding him made that method no longer viable to serve that purpose.  Star Brat now sees that there are several methods to achieve his purpose.

So his purpose has not changed.  He wants to preserve life at all costs.  If that means he and the Reapers die now that he sees there are other solutions then so be it.  He sacrificed his creators to serve his purpose and he has no problem sacrificing himself and the Reapers to do the same.

So I think you are confusing his purpose with the method he chooses to achieve that purpose.  The purpose remains the same.  The method he is now willing to refine and change because Shep and the Crucible changes the variables and provides him with new data to consider.  Until a cycle actually reached the point Shep did there was no reason for him to re-consider his methods.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 05:30 .

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Giving Shepard the chance to destroy the Reapers, and according to its given beliefs that organics would be doomed without the Reapers does not seem very much like a protection of life to me.

We don't know what his programming is. Why would he change what he's been doing? The whole idea behind the system is the elimination of all the specimens before new relevant data can be collected. The calculation is going to yield the same results if he's using the same data and method.

Leviathan confirms his purpose.  To preserve organic life at all costs.  Until Shepard that required a harvest.  The Crucible and Shep finding him made that method no longer viable to serve that purpose.  Star Brat now sees that there are several methods to achieve his purpose.

So his purpose has not changed.  He wants to preserve life at all costs.  If that means he and the Reapers die now that he sees there are other solutions then so be it.  He sacrificed his creators to serve his purpose and he has no problem sacrificing himself and the Reapers to do the same.

So I think you are confusing his purpose with the method he chooses to achieve that purpose.  The purpose remains the same.  The method he is now willing to refine and change because Shep and the Crucible changes the variables and provides him with new data to consider.  Until a cycle actually reached the point Shep did there was no reason for him to re-consider his methods.

Purpose not programming. And even then, that depends on the honesty of the Leviathan. And based on the chat Shepard has with the Leviathan, Shepard is freed because he is seen as useful. Everything useful is seen as a tool. A tool does not necessarily need the truth.

Allowing Shepard to destroy the Reapers and (according to its calculations) therefore doom all organic life is not protecting it. I'm not confusing anything. The Starchild's consistent routine is not indicative of shackling. Instead it's a result of destroying all the specimens before any meaningful data can be collected. No new data, means no reason to change the routine.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 05:39 .

[remydat]

Zayd

I guess let's look at the 4 options from Star Brats perspective.

1. Refuse - Now that the Crucible has been built and Shep has proven the resilence of organics this is the least preferred option. However, even if Shep chooses this, the harvest continues and Star Brat's purpose is still achieved ie preserve organic life.

2. Destroy/Control - I group these together because I am not sure Star Brat has a real preference between the two. His purpose is to preserve organic life. Destroy can be interpreted as his purpose being fulfilled because after billions of years organics have provided data they no longer require his protection. They are now strong enough to protect themselves. Control fulfills his purpose as organic life is preserved but Shep just oversees relations presumably without having to harvest. He is happy to accept this is possible because Shep and the organics of this cycle have proven themselves.  

3. Synthesis - This is his preferred solution as it fulfills his purpose in the best way ie he thinks it creates a connection and understanding between the groups which will resolve the conflict. While this is his preferred option as the above all of these methods achieve the same purpose and so he is not gung ho about which method. He has a preference but basically let's Shep decide. If he preferred this option so much to fight for it, he would have lied to Shep but he doesn't. He explains the options and explains what he thinks happens in each.

So the purpsoe is the same. The methods are different. Prior to this cycle he had no data from his perspective to believe anything except the harvest was a viable method. Leviathan says that the Catalyst is searching for something because his purpose is unfulfilled and that the harvest will continue until he finds what he is looking for. The thing is Shep and the Crucible is what he is looking for. After billions of years of being the only viable solution to fulfill his purpose, Shep's actions and the building of the Crucible provide data that maybe there are other choices. Maybe the harvest doesn't have to happen. Maybe he doesn't have to play god for eternity. This cycle proved that organics finally had the ability to defeat his solution after billions of years of getting their a** handed to them. That is the variable that changed. The organics finally could stand up to his solution and so they had now earned the right to choose their own destiny.  If you can't defeat his solution why would he concern himself with your data?  The proof to him of the value of your data is the ability to defeat his solution.  That is the experiment Leviathan says the Catalyst turned the Galaxy into. 

Mind you I don't agree with him because as an organic my perspective is different.  I don't like other people playing god with my life.  But he is stuck with the same purpose for billions of years which is why as powerful as he and the reapers are they are also limited.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 06:01 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

And they choose to kill him, ensuring that no matter what happens in the future it's all on us.

No gods no masters.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

And they choose to kill him, ensuring that no matter what happens in the future it's all on us.

No gods no masters.

Well that's the point.  The Catalyst turned the Galaxy into an experiment as Leviathan says and that experiment was simple.  Beat my solution and you earn the right to decide your future because you have proven that you don't need me to protect you anymore.

I have a right to make the decision that is consistent with my morals and you have the right to do the same.  You likely make your decision because you are more concerned with ending the Reaper threat once and for all.  Fair enough. 

To me, you have not ensured that what happens in the future is all on US unless you don't consider synthetics part of US.  If you did you wouldn't have killed them and removed them from that future.  To me I interpret the future being all on US to require both organics and synthetics to be alive to forge that future together.  But again, you are free to make you on call.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 06:10 .

[Maurader Sackboy]

ThinkSharp wrote...
*I never worried that the Catalyst was lying about this. ...

The Catalyst had already admitted to making "mistakes" -- things happening that weren't anticipated (e.g., Shepard reaching him).  For all the horror the Reapers had brought to the universe (multi-verse?), I said:  destroy.

Synthesis:  "Gee, I get to play God?!"  (doubt it)
Control:   TIM was right all along?!  (doubt it)

Modifié par Maurader Sackboy, 11 avril 2013 - 06:10 .

[remydat]

Maurader Sackboy wrote...

ThinkSharp wrote...
*I never worried that the Catalyst was lying about this. ...

The Catalyst had already admitted to making "mistakes" -- things happening that weren't anticipated (e.g., Shepard reaching him).  For all the horror the Reapers had brought to the universe (multi-verse?), I said:  destroy.

Synthesis:  "Gee, I get to play God?!"  (doubt it)
Control:   TIM was right all along?!  (doubt it)

You are playing God no matter what.  You and you alone decide the fate of the universe.  You either play god with everyone equally ie with synthesis or control or you play god with synthetic lives as well as with anyone who actually may want to live peacefully with synthetics if they knew such an option existed.  So not only do you play god with the Geth and EDI, you play god with Joker who may not agree with your decision or Koris and all the Quarians who now see what life is like when they stop trying to kill the Geth and actually wouldn't mind a world where they live in peace.  Not to mention not only do you deny Joker his love, you condemn him to remain in a body that he risks breaking a bone if you shake his hand too hard.  There are millions of people sick, injured or terminally ill who you are deciding whether they should remain that way or not.

So don't kid yourself you are playing god no matter what.  You as god have just decided whose lives you value more and whether you want to make a decision that affects everyone the same or whether you want to make a decision that affects just the group of people you don't necessarily mind exterminating or continue to allow to live in pain and suffering with their broken, sick or terminally ill bodies.  I am not saying this to say you shouldn't still choose Destroy but trying to play the you are playing god card with the other choices is silly.  The decision boils down to what kind of god do you want to be not well Destroy is not playing god but synthetis is.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 06:23 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

And they choose to kill him, ensuring that no matter what happens in the future it's all on us.

No gods no masters.

Well that's the point.  The Catalyst turned the Galaxy into an experiment as Leviathan says and that experiment was simple.  Beat my solution and you earn the right to decide your future because you have proven that you don't need me to protect you anymore.

I have a right to make the decision that is consistent with my morals and you have the right to do the same.  You likely make your decision because you are more concerned with ending the Reaper threat once and for all.  Fair enough. 

To me, you have not ensured that what happens in the future is all on US unless you don't consider synthetics part of US.  If you did you wouldn't have killed them and removed them from that future.  To me I interpret the future being all on US to require both organics and synthetics to be alive to forge that future together.  But again, you are free to make you on call.

Oh no, the robros are part of "us" that's why their sacrifice is such a bummer.

The robros will be remembered as heroes who sacrificed themselves to save us all.

Any future robros will be thoroughly educated about their forebears sacrifices.

I'm head canoning things as working out just fine.

Which is the same amount of head canoning people put into their own endings of choice.

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

Zayd

I guess let's look at the 4 options from Star Brats perspective.

1. Refuse - Now that the Crucible has been built and Shep has proven the resilence of organics this is the least preferred option. However, even if Shep chooses this, the harvest continues and Star Brat's purpose is still achieved ie preserve organic life.

2. Destroy/Control - I group these together because I am not sure Star Brat has a real preference between the two. His purpose is to preserve organic life. Destroy can be interpreted as his purpose being fulfilled because after billions of years organics have provided data they no longer require his protection. They are now strong enough to protect themselves. Control fulfills his purpose as organic life is preserved but Shep just oversees relations presumably without having to harvest. He is happy to accept this is possible because Shep and the organics of this cycle have proven themselves.  

3. Synthesis - This is his preferred solution as it fulfills his purpose in the best way ie he thinks it creates a connection and understanding between the groups which will resolve the conflict. While this is his preferred option as the above all of these methods achieve the same purpose and so he is not gung ho about which method. He has a preference but basically let's Shep decide. If he preferred this option so much to fight for it, he would have lied to Shep but he doesn't. He explains the options and explains what he thinks happens in each.

So the purpsoe is the same. The methods are different. Prior to this cycle he had no data from his perspective to believe anything except the harvest was a viable method. Leviathan says that the Catalyst is searching for something because his purpose is unfulfilled and that the harvest will continue until he finds what he is looking for. The thing is Shep and the Crucible is what he is looking for. After billions of years of being the only viable solution to fulfill his purpose, Shep's actions and the building of the Crucible provide data that maybe there are other choices. Maybe the harvest doesn't have to happen. Maybe he doesn't have to play god for eternity. This cycle proved that organics finally had the ability to defeat his solution after billions of years of getting their a** handed to them. That is the variable that changed. The organics finally could stand up to his solution and so they had now earned the right to choose their own destiny.  If you can't defeat his solution why would he concern himself with your data?  The proof to him of the value of your data is the ability to defeat his solution.  That is the experiment Leviathan says the Catalyst turned the Galaxy into. 

Mind you I don't agree with him because as an organic my perspective is different.  I don't like other people playing god with my life.  But he is stuck with the same purpose for billions of years which is why as powerful as he and the reapers are they are also limited.

1) Shepard isn't the only organic in the galaxy. If Synthesis is truly superior, someone else can be brought up to activate it.

2) Ridiculous. The Crucible is a one use thing, and we don't understand the principles behind it. It needs a Catalyst to work, and that's destroyed. We'd still be capable of creating scary synthetics far more easily than wiping them all out again,

If Organics were considered strong enough to protect themselves, then the Reapers could leave. When Shepard says we'd rather be left alone, the Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop synthetics would destroy all organic life." This implies that destroying all Reapers has a time delayed "destroy all organics" clause attached.

As for Control, all that does is replace one all-powerful synthetic with another.

3) The choices do not at all give the same results. If protecting life is part of the Starchild's programming, he certainly isn't shackled to it if he can allow Shepard to (according to his beliefs) destroy that life. Also, this cycle failed to defeat his solution. Shepard was passing out. The Crucible hadn't activated. The Reapers had already won.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 08:32 .

[Arbiter156]

my choice was destroy; I came here to do a job, whilst the death of Edi/Geth is regrettable control/synthesis are far worse fates.

then I watched the other endings on youtube and found that it didn't really matter since all that changed was the colour of the explosions.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Oh no, the robros are part of "us" that's why their sacrifice is such a bummer.

The robros will be remembered as heroes who sacrificed themselves to save us all.

Any future robros will be thoroughly educated about their forebears sacrifices.

I'm head canoning things as working out just fine.

Which is the same amount of head canoning people put into their own endings of choice.

I have no clue whether things work out fine.  I simply prefer synthetics being given the same opportunity as organics to live and decide their own future.  You are free to make you won choice as I said.

And of course it is head canon for both of us so not sure the point in mentioning it.

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

1) Shepard isn't the only organic in the galaxy. If Synthesis is truly superior, someone else can be brought up to activate it.

2) Ridiculous. The Crucible is a one use thing, and we don't understand the principles behind it. It needs a Catalyst to work, and that's destroyed. We'd still be capable of creating scary synthetics far more easily than wiping them all out again,

If Organics were considered strong enough to protect themselves, then the Reapers could leave. When Shepard says we'd rather be left alone, the Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop synthetics would destroy all organic life." This implies that destroying all Reapers has a time delayed "destroy all organics" clause attached.

As for Control, all that does is replace one all-powerful synthetic with another.

3) The choices do not at all give the same results. If protecting life is part of the Starchild's programming, he certainly isn't shackled to it if he can allow Shepard to (according to his beliefs) destroy that life. Also, this cycle failed to defeat his solution. Shepard was passing out. The Crucible hadn't activated. The Reapers had already won.

1.  But no one said it is superior.  The Catalyst prefers it but is not fanatical about it.  It merely tells you it's preference but lets you decide because you have earned the right.

2.  Whether it is one use is irrelevant.  We have proven to the Catalyst we are more resilient than he ever thought.  He thought the plans for the Crucible were eradicated.  The fact it was not the fact that despite the harvest, all those previous cycles were able to pass their knowledge down millions or billions of years later so that this cycle could build it is proof for him the variables have changed.  He said so.  You basically just want to ignore what he said.

3.  No one said they gave the same results.  They in their own way fulfill the same purpose.  The programming was to preserve life at all costs.  That means if you have to kill to preserve life you do.  It killed Leviathan and it accepts it's own death in the destroy option.  Humans have been preserving life by killing forever.  That is how we justify wars and such.  You kill some people to save others.  And this cycle defeated his solution the minute Shep set foot on the Citadel.  Again, the Catalyst says Shep's presence proved his solution was no longer viable.  The Catalyst decides when his solution is defeated not you.  It decided Shep's presence was enough to prove his solution was no longer the only viable solution. 

You are free to have your own opinions but you can't pretend you opinions are shared by the Catalyst when it clearly tells you what it's opinions are.  The solution was defeated because the Crucible should have been eradicated millions of years ago and Shep should not be standing there talking to him.  That is what the Catalyst says.  It was his experiment and he has decided that Shep represents the culmination of that experiment.

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

1) Shepard isn't the only organic in the galaxy. If Synthesis is truly superior, someone else can be brought up to activate it.

2) Ridiculous. The Crucible is a one use thing, and we don't understand the principles behind it. It needs a Catalyst to work, and that's destroyed. We'd still be capable of creating scary synthetics far more easily than wiping them all out again,

If Organics were considered strong enough to protect themselves, then the Reapers could leave. When Shepard says we'd rather be left alone, the Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop synthetics would destroy all organic life." This implies that destroying all Reapers has a time delayed "destroy all organics" clause attached.

As for Control, all that does is replace one all-powerful synthetic with another.

3) The choices do not at all give the same results. If protecting life is part of the Starchild's programming, he certainly isn't shackled to it if he can allow Shepard to (according to his beliefs) destroy that life. Also, this cycle failed to defeat his solution. Shepard was passing out. The Crucible hadn't activated. The Reapers had already won.

1.  But no one said it is superior.  The Catalyst prefers it but is not fanatical about it.  It merely tells you it's preference but lets you decide because you have earned the right.

2.  Whether it is one use is irrelevant.  We have proven to the Catalyst we are more resilient than he ever thought.  He thought the plans for the Crucible were eradicated.  The fact it was not the fact that despite the harvest, all those previous cycles were able to pass their knowledge down millions or billions of years later so that this cycle could build it is proof for him the variables have changed.  He said so.  You basically just want to ignore what he said.

3.  No one said they gave the same results.  They in their own way fulfill the same purpose.  The programming was to preserve life at all costs.  That means if you have to kill to preserve life you do.  It killed Leviathan and it accepts it's own death in the destroy option.  Humans have been preserving life by killing forever.  That is how we justify wars and such.  You kill some people to save others.  And this cycle defeated his solution the minute Shep set foot on the Citadel.  Again, the Catalyst says Shep's presence proved his solution was no longer viable.  The Catalyst decides when his solution is defeated not you.  It decided Shep's presence was enough to prove his solution was no longer the only viable solution. 

You are free to have your own opinions but you can't pretend you opinions are shared by the Catalyst when it clearly tells you what it's opinions are.  The solution was defeated because the Crucible should have been eradicated millions of years ago and Shep should not be standing there talking to him.  That is what the Catalyst says.  It was his experiment and he has decided that Shep represents the culmination of that experiment.

2. He says quite clearly, that we will be destroyed without the Reapers. Clearly it is you that just wants to ignore what he said. You are free to have your own opinions but you can't pretend your opinions are shared by the Starchild when it clearly tells you what it's opinions are.

3. They don't. According to the Starchild, Destroy ---> destruction of organics eventually.
Control simply leads in one synthetic with the power to eliminate organic life with another synthetic powerful enough to eliminate organic life. You cannot preserve organic life by allowing it to be completely wiped out.

The solution was not defeated, because the Crucible could not be activated. Shepard had failed, and the Reapers had won. Shepard should not be standing there, because the Reapers had already won. Bringing him up makes no sense, and is no achievement on Shepard's part. The Starchild says nothing about any experiment.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 10:14 .

[Little Princess Peach]

Argolas wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

I picked Destroy because I wanted shepard to live It's that simple for me, I don't care about who else lives or dies

And from a roleplaying perspective? Shepard is told that all 3 choices lead to death, there is no reason to think otherwise before the decision is actually made.

either way I saw the Reapers go bye bye so meh, still made my choice based on the facts that shepard lives if not then oh well

[Little Princess Peach]

PirateMouse wrote...

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

I picked Destroy because I wanted shepard to live It's that simple for me, I don't care about who else lives or dies

Incredibly selfish but ... refreshingly honest? I guess?

well for one it's a video game, EDI and the gethanators (Geth) don't really matter to me, I found them both annoying as hell.

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

2. He says quite clearly, that we will be destroyed without the Reapers. Clearly it is you that just wants to ignore what he said. You are free to have your own opinions but you can't pretend your opinions are shared by the Starchild when it clearly tells you what it's opinions are.

3. They don't. According to the Starchild, Destroy ---> destruction of organics eventually.
Control simply leads in one synthetic with the power to eliminate organic life with another synthetic powerful enough to eliminate organic life. You cannot preserve organic life by allowing it to be completely wiped out.

The solution was not defeated, because the Crucible could not be activated. Shepard had failed, and the Reapers had won. Shepard should not be standing there, because the Reapers had already won. Bringing him up makes no sense, and is no achievement on Shepard's part. The Starchild says nothing about any experiment.

You are not following the conversation in order.

1.  Without us to stop to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.
2.  You have hope.  The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it.  But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.  We find a new solution.  You have changed the variables.  The Crucible changed me created new variables.  It is now in YOUR POWER to destroy us.
3.  Peace won't last.  You children will create synthetics and the chaos will return.


Statement 1 occurs first and is the Catalyst explaining it's previous opinion ie synthetics would destory all organics.

Statement 2 is several statements made after and the point is the catalyst says the solution was defeated.  Shep's presence is proof of it.  That is what he says.  That is his opinion.  All of this is said after statement 1 and in saying it after statement 1, it is explaining that statement 2 renders statement 1 invalid.  Statement 1 was the Catalyst's truth pre this cycle.  And pre Shep's presence which he admits invalidates his previous solution.  He then flat out says you now have the power to destroy us.

Statement 3 is the Catalyst saying that if you do Peace won't last.  However, all he says is the chaos will come back ie the conflict.  Well duh, you can never get rid of conflict.  However, unlike statment 1.  He never says this chaos will result in synthetics destorying organics.  Why because he just said from statement 2 that Shep's presence changed everything.  At no point after statement 2 does he ever claim synthetics will destroy organics.  They prove they no longer need his protection because Shep is standing there with him.  So he is content to let Shep decide how to proceed.

The part about the experiment is from Leviathan.  He said the cycles will not end and the Catalyst will not stop until it finds what it is looking for.  It's purpose is still unfulfilled.  When you combine that with the Catalyst's own statements, the experiment can be interpreted as the cycles.  He established an imperfect solution and watched that imperfect solution win each and every time.  He was waiting on data that would suggest it was not the best solution.  He never found it because no one could defeat it.  Then in our Cycle, Shep and the Crucible defeat it.  The experiment has been concluded.  He now has new data to suggest his imperfect solution is no longer valid and that synthetics will not destroy organics.  The answer he was looking for has arrived in the form of Shepard.  He is no longer required to defend organics for eternity.  Chaos may still occur but he no longer believes that it will inevitably result in synthetics destroyng organics. 

You are free to disagree with him but the game to me makes it pretty clear that he no longer believes the Reapers are a necessity.  You are taking statement 1 which was said as a recap of the previous cycles and ignoring that statements 2 and 3 establish we are dealing with a new scenario.   One in which chaos or conflict is possible post destroy but one in which the Catalyst no longer thinks it will lead to organic extinction.  The reward for Shep in fulfilling the experiment is he gets to decide.

Modifié par remydat, 11 avril 2013 - 11:05 .

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

2. He says quite clearly, that we will be destroyed without the Reapers. Clearly it is you that just wants to ignore what he said. You are free to have your own opinions but you can't pretend your opinions are shared by the Starchild when it clearly tells you what it's opinions are.

3. They don't. According to the Starchild, Destroy ---> destruction of organics eventually.
Control simply leads in one synthetic with the power to eliminate organic life with another synthetic powerful enough to eliminate organic life. You cannot preserve organic life by allowing it to be completely wiped out.

The solution was not defeated, because the Crucible could not be activated. Shepard had failed, and the Reapers had won. Shepard should not be standing there, because the Reapers had already won. Bringing him up makes no sense, and is no achievement on Shepard's part. The Starchild says nothing about any experiment.

You are not following the conversation in order.

1.  Without us to stop to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics.
2.  You have hope.  The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it.  But it also proves my solution won't work anymore.  We find a new solution.  You have changed the variables.  The Crucible changed me created new variables.  It is now in YOUR POWER to destroy us.
3.  Peace won't last.  You children will create synthetics and the chaos will return.


Statement 1 occurs first and is the Catalyst explaining it's previous opinion ie synthetics would destory all organics.

Statement 2 is several statements made after and the point is the catalyst says the solution was defeated.  Shep's presence is proof of it.  That is what he says.  That is his opinion.  All of this is said after statement 1 and in saying it after statement 1, it is explaining that statement 2 renders statement 1 invalid.  Statement 1 was the Catalyst's truth pre this cycle.  And pre Shep's presence which he admits invalidates his previous solution.  He then flat out says you now have the power to destroy us.

Statement 3 is the Catalyst saying that if you do Peace won't last.  However, all he says is the chaos will come back ie the conflict.  Well duh, you can never get rid of conflict.  However, unlike statment 1.  He never says this chaos will result in synthetics destorying organics.  Why because he just said from statement 2 that Shep's presence changed everything.  At no point after statement 2 does he ever claim synthetics will destroy organics.  They proven they no longer need his protection because Shep is standing there with him.  So he is content to let Shep decide how to proceed.

The part about the experiment is from Leviathan.  He said the cycles will not end and the Catalyst will not stop until it finds what it is looking for.  It's purpose is still unfulfilled.  When you combine that with the Catalyst's own statements, the experiment can be interpreted as the cycles.  He established an imperfect solution and watched that imperfect solution win each and every time.  He was waiting on data that would suggest it was not the best solution.  He never found it because no one could defeat it.  Then in our Cycle, Shep and the Crucible defeat it.  The experiment has been concluded.  He now has new data to suggest his imperfect solution is no longer valid and that synthetics will not destroy organics.  The answer he was looking for has arrived in the form of Shepard.  He is no longer required to defend organics for eternity.  Chaos may still occur but he no longer believes that it will inevitably result in synthetics destroyng organics. 

You are free to disagree with him but the game to me makes it pretty clear that he no longer believes the Reapers are a necessity.  You are taking statement 1 which was said as a recap of the previous cycles and ignoring that statements 2 and 3 establish we are dealing with a new scenario.   One in which chaos or conflict is possible post destroy but one in which the Catalyst no longer thinks it will lead to organic extinction.  The reward for Shep in fulfilling the experiment is he gets to decide.

Statement 1 occurs in response to Shepard saying we'd rather be left alone. The Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics." This is the current standing. If it wasn't we could just be left alone.

As for statement 2, it is only in our power because the Starchild lets us. We didn't change the variables. The Starchild did. It brought us upstairs. And once we've used the crucible, we don't have the power to use it again. It is a very temporary state, and one that is given to us by the Starchild.

If we have used the Crucible, and there aren't any Reapers to stop us, according to the Starchild we will be destroyed.

This isn't an experiment. The Starchild isn't doing it to collect data. This is its solution, not research.

You are free to disagree with him but he makes it pretty clear that he believes the Reapers are a necessity for as long as organics and synthetics exist. If he didn't, we wouldn't have to pick a new solution as we would already be okay.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 11:15 .

[SirLugash]

Before EC: Control.
Reason: I wasn't sure whether to pick Destroy or Control but went with Control as I Like the Geth and EDI.
Synthesis is a no-go to me as I can't possibly imagine to force my will on every living being in the galaxy.

After EC: Destroy.
Reason: It was cleared that not Shepard himself is going to be the Catalyst but an AI created of Shepards thoughts and memories which I can't really trust, therefore Destroy the only valid option for me.

[KotorEffect3]

Destroy is my personal canon ending because it is the one that ends the cycle and the reaper threat for good. It is the best choice for the galaxy in the long run.

[Hurbster]

Destroy. Out of the three choices red is my favorite colour.

[remydat]

KingZayd wrote...

Statement 1 occurs in response to Shepard saying we'd rather be left alone. The Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics." This is the current standing. If it wasn't we could just be left alone.

As for statement 2, it is only in our power because the Starchild lets us. We didn't change the variables. The Starchild did. It brought us upstairs. And once we've used the crucible, we don't have the power to use it again. It is a very temporary state, and one that is given to us by the Starchild.

If we have used the Crucible, and there aren't any Reapers to stop us, according to the Starchild we will be destroyed.

This isn't an experiment. The Starchild isn't doing it to collect data. This is its solution, not research.

You are free to disagree with him but he makes it pretty clear that he believes the Reapers are a necessity for as long as organics and synthetics exist. If he didn't, we wouldn't have to pick a new solution as we would already be okay.

In the Leviathan DLC, there is a an option to ask WHY CYCLES.  This option only appears after you ask one of the other questions and if you don't pick it once it appears and ask another question, you lose the option to pick it again.  As a result a lot of people miss it when they play the DLC.  In any event, here is what it says at 9:23 of the below when Shepard asks what the point of the harvests are paraphrase but you can listen yourself.



The intelligence has one purpose.  The preservation of life.  That purpose has not been fulfilled.  It created the mass relays to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency.  The galaxy itself became an EXPERIMENT. Evolution its tools.  Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

The above statement makes it clear that the experiment is the cycles.  The Reapers are an imperfect solution.  The Catalyst knows its purpose is unfulfilled and it continues the cycles until it finds what it is looking for.  The Leviathan are it's creators.  They are the only entity still left from a time before the cycles to have intimate knowledge of the Catalyst as well as the experiment it has been conducting because it has been watching from the shadows this entire time.  So it's opinion on what it's creation is doing and why is clear.

Once you accept the above, the conversation at the end is as follows.  Statement 1 is the Catalyst explaining that synthetics will destroy organics.  That is what it always believed.  That is why it created the harvest but that is an imperfect solution.  It created the cycles to preserve life but to also find a better solution.

Statement 2 is acknowledging it has found what it was looking for.  He never flat out says it but from all the above, I interpret that he was looking for evidence that there was a better solution.  That evidence comes in the form of Shep and the Crucible which Leviathan also hints at as it calls Shep an anomaly.  The minute he says Shep and the Crucible changed the variables and a new solution is required he is implicitly admitting the old solution and his old idea that synthetics will destroy organics is no longer 100% true.

The reward for completing the experiment is Shep gets to decide how the experiment ends.  The Catalyst has fulfilled his purpose and while he has a preferred ending, he no longer is driven to play god.  He has turned that over to Shep.  And once again, after statement 2, he never claims synthetics will destory organics.  Never.  He simply says chaos will occur.  However, by completing the experiment, organics have proven in his mind that they are resourceful enough to deal with the chaos without him being the baby sitter. That resourcefulness was proven by Shep and by the fact that the Crucible has been passed down over millions of years added to and refined when he thought the idea had been eradicated.  So again, in his opinion, they have proven themselves.

Tthe harvest ends because the Catalyst finds what he is looking for ie evidence these silly organics can take care of themselves.  They have been through hell of the harvest and survived.  They survived not simply on their own merits but because all those previous cycles it thought unworthy had tricked him and passed down the plans for the Crucible for millions of years.  The victory in this cycle is their victory too.  The harvest was designed to make organics start all over again from stratch but th organics found a way to beat it by passing down their knowledge of the Crucible to future cycles despite the Catalyst think such plans had been eradicated.

So yes that is my interpretation of what the Catalyst believes.  It is satisfied organics can take care of themselves and let's them decide their own destiny.  The destiny they choose for themselves is irrelevant now because whatever destiny they choose, it believes they are resourceful enough now to survive it.  That was the experiment.  It believed that eventually synthetics would surpass organics and destroy them.  It created the experiment to prevent it from happening but also as a test.  If they could withstand the Reapers ie what is as far as we know the biggest synthetic threat ever and figure out a way to survive, it would mean they could hold their own against any synthetic threat.

I am not saying I believe it's logic just explaining what I think its logic is.  This was organics Rite of Passage like Grunt in ME2 with the Reapers as the Thresher Maw.  You don't have to kill it, you just have to prove you can survive long enough to get to the Catalyst.

[indyracing]

 Honestly the ending I picked in my one playthrough was the one on the left.

I don't even know which one that was, but it looked like the closest one to my character, so it was the shortest walk.

I was so stunned by the absurdity of the Star Child (this is pre-EC, which I have not played and have no plans to), that I simply didn't care what my choice was, as everything about the last 20 minutes of the game seemed so bafflingly stupid and I just wanted it over.

Nothing from the appearance of the Star Child onward made any logical sense with the story of ME (1+2+ 95% of 3), so none of the choices seemed remotely plausible given the story I had played to that point, so I simply didn't care what I chose, and I refuse to remember which one I ended up picking (other than it being the one on the left).