439 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

indyracing wrote...

 Honestly the ending I picked in my one playthrough was the one on the left.

I don't even know which one that was, but it looked like the closest one to my character, so it was the shortest walk.

I was so stunned by the absurdity of the Star Child (this is pre-EC, which I have not played and have no plans to), that I simply didn't care what my choice was, as everything about the last 20 minutes of the game seemed so bafflingly stupid and I just wanted it over.

Nothing from the appearance of the Star Child onward made any logical sense with the story of ME (1+2+ 95% of 3), so none of the choices seemed remotely plausible given the story I had played to that point, so I simply didn't care what I chose, and I refuse to remember which one I ended up picking (other than it being the one on the left).

But you cared enough to come on a message board and tell us you didn't care about the endings.

Sorry couldn't resist, lol.

[PirateMouse]

remydat wrote...

You are playing God no matter what.  You and you alone decide the fate of the universe.  You either play god with everyone equally ie with synthesis or control or you play god with synthetic lives as well as with anyone who actually may want to live peacefully with synthetics if they knew such an option existed.  So not only do you play god with the Geth and EDI, you play god with Joker who may not agree with your decision or Koris and all the Quarians who now see what life is like when they stop trying to kill the Geth and actually wouldn't mind a world where they live in peace.  Not to mention not only do you deny Joker his love, you condemn him to remain in a body that he risks breaking a bone if you shake his hand too hard.  There are millions of people sick, injured or terminally ill who you are deciding whether they should remain that way or not.

So don't kid yourself you are playing god no matter what.  You as god have just decided whose lives you value more and whether you want to make a decision that affects everyone the same or whether you want to make a decision that affects just the group of people you don't necessarily mind exterminating or continue to allow to live in pain and suffering with their broken, sick or terminally ill bodies.  I am not saying this to say you shouldn't still choose Destroy but trying to play the you are playing god card with the other choices is silly.  The decision boils down to what kind of god do you want to be not well Destroy is not playing god but synthetis is.

Thank you.

This ... so much this.  You couldn't have put my feelings more eloquently.

I'm so sick of seeing people who picked Destroy play the "god" card when, just as you pointed out, they're not only playing god themselves ... they're playing very cruel gods indeed.

And you know what? Even Refusal is playing god unless you specifically chose it because you believed Starbrat was lying about all three options (an admittedly reasonable stance).  You've opted to be an uncaring god, a god who refuses to act ... but you are playing god nonetheless because the moment you have the power of a "god" in your grasp ... no matter how you wield it or even if you choose to throw it back, your act is the act of one with a god's power and a god's responsibility.  You have played god whether you like it or not.

To steal the classic comic line, "with great power comes great responsibility" ... and that's true even if you didn't choose or want that power.

Personally, I would rather not be a genocidal, friend-murdering god given the choice ... but hey, maybe that's just me.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 12 avril 2013 - 02:28 .

[The Twilight God]

Destroy is the only viable option for me.

I see the other two endings as indoctrinated.

Synthesis being the transformation of an individualist society into a singular social consciousness. I.e. a diffused reaper. The Kid's comments about synthesis correlate with what Saren, Sovereign and Harbinger described. Also, it validates the Reapers' past actions and rewards them for all the carnage they have unleashed.

Control seems no different than any other organic to reaper transformation. All reapers were once organic civilizations. They all opposed the Reapers, fought them and most likely hated them. And yet, upon upload they are willing servants to a predefined agenda. I don't see why this time it would be any different.

And something both have in common is that you are being asked to kill yourself on the word of a Reaper. If it is lying you're dead and give up any chance of stopping them.

[PirateMouse]

The Twilight God wrote...

Destroy is the only viable option for me.

I see the other two endings as indoctrinated.

So when you were indoctrinated and tricked by the Starbrat into destroying the Crucible (come on, you really believed shooting it would activate it?), and the rest of it was just your indoctrinated hallucination of victory ... how did that go for you?

[indyracing]

remydat wrote...

indyracing wrote...

 Honestly the ending I picked in my one playthrough was the one on the left.

I don't even know which one that was, but it looked like the closest one to my character, so it was the shortest walk.

I was so stunned by the absurdity of the Star Child (this is pre-EC, which I have not played and have no plans to), that I simply didn't care what my choice was, as everything about the last 20 minutes of the game seemed so bafflingly stupid and I just wanted it over.

Nothing from the appearance of the Star Child onward made any logical sense with the story of ME (1+2+ 95% of 3), so none of the choices seemed remotely plausible given the story I had played to that point, so I simply didn't care what I chose, and I refuse to remember which one I ended up picking (other than it being the one on the left).

But you cared enough to come on a message board and tell us you didn't care about the endings.

Sorry couldn't resist, lol.

It's probably  not healthy for me, but I'm still upset at the loss of Bioware (that's how I see it).  Because Bioware used to be a company that I'd simply just buy what they made no question.  But DA2, TOR and ME3 have totally destroyed that for me (the ME3 DLCs are the first product from Bioware since Baldur's Gate 1 came out that I haven't purchased - along with whatever they've sold for TOR since release).

It simply bothers me that, at least IMO, Bioware has fallen so far from where they were in terms of making great games, and so, yeah, I come back here sometimes, and a part of me hopes that someone at Bioware reads what I write and agrees with my general thinking that Bioware stories and games simply aren't as good as they used to be, and they start making great ones again.

[remydat]

The Twilight God wrote...

Destroy is the only viable option for me.

I see the other two endings as indoctrinated.

Synthesis being the transformation of an individualist society into a singular social consciousness. I.e. a diffused reaper. The Kid's comments about synthesis correlate with what Saren, Sovereign and Harbinger described. Also, it validates the Reapers' past actions and rewards them for all the carnage they have unleashed.

Control seems no different than any other organic to reaper transformation. All reapers were once organic civilizations. They all opposed the Reapers, fought them and most likely hated them. And yet, upon upload they are willing servants to a predefined agenda. I don't see why this time it would be any different.

And something both have in common is that you are being asked to kill yourself on the word of a Reaper. If it is lying you're dead and give up any chance of stopping them.

If you think it is lying then why wouldn't it lie and claim synthetis was destroy?  Why would it be stupid enough to tell you synthesis or control results in your death?  You have no way of knowing any of those things.

Also Destroy is also similar to the Reapers.  You decide to solve the conflict the Reaper claims is inevitable by harvesting ALL synthetic life.  Only difference is at least the Reapers have the decency to preserve said life in Reaper form however grosteque that is.  You simply decide to eradicate from all existence.

[remydat]

indyracing wrote...

It's probably  not healthy for me, but I'm still upset at the loss of Bioware (that's how I see it).  Because Bioware used to be a company that I'd simply just buy what they made no question.  But DA2, TOR and ME3 have totally destroyed that for me (the ME3 DLCs are the first product from Bioware since Baldur's Gate 1 came out that I haven't purchased - along with whatever they've sold for TOR since release).

It simply bothers me that, at least IMO, Bioware has fallen so far from where they were in terms of making great games, and so, yeah, I come back here sometimes, and a part of me hopes that someone at Bioware reads what I write and agrees with my general thinking that Bioware stories and games simply aren't as good as they used to be, and they start making great ones again.

Eh, it's a game dude.  It's their blood sweat and tears that made it and they can end it how they want.  It's their profession.  Your hobby.

It made a ton of money and metacritic has it as a 93 overall rating.  I get you don't like it but I think Bioware is fine.

[The Twilight God]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Destroy is the only viable option for me.

I see the other two endings as indoctrinated.

So when you were indoctrinated and tricked by the Starbrat into destroying the Crucible (come on, you really believed shooting it would activate it?), and the rest of it was just your indoctrinated hallucination of victory ... how did that go for you?

No. Shooting the "tubes", which is a part of a citadel device (not the Crucible), frees it to activate automatically as it would have without the Reaper contraption blocking it. However, given the limitations of a video game you don't really have the option to investigate further as a player. Regardless, shooting the tubes does not call for suicide and no way to continue on and try to stop the Reapers if the Kid is lying.

[PirateMouse]

The Twilight God wrote...

No. Shooting the "tubes", which is a part of a citadel device (not the Crucible), frees it to activate automatically as it would have without the Reaper contraption blocking it. However, given the limitations of a video game you don't really have the option to investigate further as a player. Regardless, shooting the tubes does not call for suicide and no way to continue on and try to stop the Reapers if the Kid is lying.

And where are you getting your information, including the part where you believe shooting them won't have the effect of destroying the Crucible, from?

Yeah.

Modifié par PirateMouse, 12 avril 2013 - 02:49 .

[KingZayd]

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

No. Shooting the "tubes", which is a part of a citadel device (not the Crucible), frees it to activate automatically as it would have without the Reaper contraption blocking it. However, given the limitations of a video game you don't really have the option to investigate further as a player. Regardless, shooting the tubes does not call for suicide and no way to continue on and try to stop the Reapers if the Kid is lying.

And where are you getting your information, including the part where you believe shooting them won't have the effect of destroying the Crucible, from?

Yeah.

From Anderson

[The Twilight God]

remydat wrote...

If you think it is lying then why wouldn't it lie and claim synthetis was destroy?  Why would it be stupid enough to tell you synthesis or control results in your death?  You have no way of knowing any of those things.

Also Destroy is also similar to the Reapers.  You decide to solve the conflict the Reaper claims is inevitable by harvesting ALL synthetic life.  Only difference is at least the Reapers have the decency to preserve said life in Reaper form however grosteque that is.  You simply decide to eradicate from all existence.

Would you believe your enemy telling you to commit suicide would make the enemy (i.e. the antagonist, evil entity, etc.) seem trustworthy. The idea is to get players to not just all pick destroy. Further it seems the idea is to get the player to agree with the Reapers and do their work for them.

To your other point, there is no evidence of total synthetic genocide in Destroy. See my signature. You can choose to believe the Geth are all destroyed if you like, but don't act like any such thing is ever shown to have occurred in the game. Slightly implied by the antagonist (given a pre-EC mindset) to sour Destroy? Yes. Stated as such by said antagonist? No.

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

No. Shooting the "tubes", which is a part of a citadel device (not the Crucible), frees it to activate automatically as it would have without the Reaper contraption blocking it. However, given the limitations of a video game you don't really have the option to investigate further as a player. Regardless, shooting the tubes does not call for suicide and no way to continue on and try to stop the Reapers if the Kid is lying.

And where are you getting your information[?].

The game itself.
 
I did a write up on it. I'm not in the mood to get into details when it's already been posted. If you follow the link in my sig, at the bottom of that post are links to other posts. The Destroy one should have the details. 

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Statement 1 occurs in response to Shepard saying we'd rather be left alone. The Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics." This is the current standing. If it wasn't we could just be left alone.

As for statement 2, it is only in our power because the Starchild lets us. We didn't change the variables. The Starchild did. It brought us upstairs. And once we've used the crucible, we don't have the power to use it again. It is a very temporary state, and one that is given to us by the Starchild.

If we have used the Crucible, and there aren't any Reapers to stop us, according to the Starchild we will be destroyed.

This isn't an experiment. The Starchild isn't doing it to collect data. This is its solution, not research.

You are free to disagree with him but he makes it pretty clear that he believes the Reapers are a necessity for as long as organics and synthetics exist. If he didn't, we wouldn't have to pick a new solution as we would already be okay.

In the Leviathan DLC, there is a an option to ask WHY CYCLES.  This option only appears after you ask one of the other questions and if you don't pick it once it appears and ask another question, you lose the option to pick it again.  As a result a lot of people miss it when they play the DLC.  In any event, here is what it says at 9:23 of the below when Shepard asks what the point of the harvests are paraphrase but you can listen yourself.



The intelligence has one purpose.  The preservation of life.  That purpose has not been fulfilled.  It created the mass relays to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency.  The galaxy itself became an EXPERIMENT. Evolution its tools.  Until the intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

The above statement makes it clear that the experiment is the cycles.  The Reapers are an imperfect solution.  The Catalyst knows its purpose is unfulfilled and it continues the cycles until it finds what it is looking for.  The Leviathan are it's creators.  They are the only entity still left from a time before the cycles to have intimate knowledge of the Catalyst as well as the experiment it has been conducting because it has been watching from the shadows this entire time.  So it's opinion on what it's creation is doing and why is clear.

Once you accept the above, the conversation at the end is as follows.  Statement 1 is the Catalyst explaining that synthetics will destroy organics.  That is what it always believed.  That is why it created the harvest but that is an imperfect solution.  It created the cycles to preserve life but to also find a better solution.

Statement 2 is acknowledging it has found what it was looking for.  He never flat out says it but from all the above, I interpret that he was looking for evidence that there was a better solution.  That evidence comes in the form of Shep and the Crucible which Leviathan also hints at as it calls Shep an anomaly.  The minute he says Shep and the Crucible changed the variables and a new solution is required he is implicitly admitting the old solution and his old idea that synthetics will destroy organics is no longer 100% true.

The reward for completing the experiment is Shep gets to decide how the experiment ends.  The Catalyst has fulfilled his purpose and while he has a preferred ending, he no longer is driven to play god.  He has turned that over to Shep.  And once again, after statement 2, he never claims synthetics will destory organics.  Never.  He simply says chaos will occur.  However, by completing the experiment, organics have proven in his mind that they are resourceful enough to deal with the chaos without him being the baby sitter. That resourcefulness was proven by Shep and by the fact that the Crucible has been passed down over millions of years added to and refined when he thought the idea had been eradicated.  So again, in his opinion, they have proven themselves.

Tthe harvest ends because the Catalyst finds what he is looking for ie evidence these silly organics can take care of themselves.  They have been through hell of the harvest and survived.  They survived not simply on their own merits but because all those previous cycles it thought unworthy had tricked him and passed down the plans for the Crucible for millions of years.  The victory in this cycle is their victory too.  The harvest was designed to make organics start all over again from stratch but th organics found a way to beat it by passing down their knowledge of the Crucible to future cycles despite the Catalyst think such plans had been eradicated.

So yes that is my interpretation of what the Catalyst believes.  It is satisfied organics can take care of themselves and let's them decide their own destiny.  The destiny they choose for themselves is irrelevant now because whatever destiny they choose, it believes they are resourceful enough now to survive it.  That was the experiment.  It believed that eventually synthetics would surpass organics and destroy them.  It created the experiment to prevent it from happening but also as a test.  If they could withstand the Reapers ie what is as far as we know the biggest synthetic threat ever and figure out a way to survive, it would mean they could hold their own against any synthetic threat.

I am not saying I believe it's logic just explaining what I think its logic is.  This was organics Rite of Passage like Grunt in ME2 with the Reapers as the Thresher Maw.  You don't have to kill it, you just have to prove you can survive long enough to get to the Catalyst.

And where do the Leviathan get their info on the purpose of the cycle from? It's not as if they were able to have a chat with the Starchild is it? It's merely speculation. The cycles are the solution, not an experiment.

Statement 1 occurs in response to Shepard saying we'd rather be left alone. The Starchild says "No. You can't. Without us to stop it, synthetics would destroy all organics." This is the current standing. If it wasn't we could just be left alone.

As for statement 2, it is only in our power because the Starchild lets us. We didn't change the variables. The Starchild did. It brought us upstairs. And once we've used the crucible, we don't have the power to use it again. It is a very temporary state, and one that is given to us by the Starchild.

If we have used the Crucible, and there aren't any Reapers to stop us, according to the Starchild we will be destroyed.

This isn't an experiment. The Starchild isn't doing it to collect data. This is its solution, not research.

If it had been deemed that we were strong enough to protect ourselves, then why do we need another solution? Because we haven't.

[AlanC9]

The Twilight God wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
No. Shooting the "tubes", which is a part of a citadel device (not the Crucible), frees it to activate automatically as it would have without the Reaper contraption blocking it. However, given the limitations of a video game you don't really have the option to investigate further as a player. Regardless, shooting the tubes does not call for suicide and no way to continue on and try to stop the Reapers if the Kid is lying.

And where are you getting your information[?].

The game itself.
 
I did a write up on it. I'm not in the mood to get into details when it's already been posted. If you follow the link in my sig, at the bottom of that post are links to other posts. The Destroy one should have the details. 

PirateMouse, consider carefully whether you want to engage further with these theories. TTG's essentially trying to force an interpretation he likes onto the game. They're amusing theories, but not to be taken seriously.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 avril 2013 - 03:11 .

[Eterna]

I pick Synthesis to infuriate people on the BSN.

[PirateMouse]

The Twilight God wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

And where are you getting your information[?].

The game itself.
 
I did a write up on it. I'm not in the mood to get into details when it's already been posted. If you follow the link in my sig, at the bottom of that post are links to other posts. The Destroy one should have the details. 

"The game itself" does not prove that you're not being tricked into destroying the Crucible.  It only shows that you believe that to be the case, which by your own logic is highly suspect.

So what's it like being indoctrinated, hey?

[PirateMouse]

AlanC9 wrote...

PirateMouse, consider carefully whether you want to engage further with these theories. TTG's essentially trying to force an interpretation he likes onto the game. They're amusing theories, but not to be taken seriously.

I enjoy this actually.  It's positively delicious seeing them squirm around like worms on hooks as they try to wriggle out of their own logic.  The fact is, once you doubt Shepard's perceptions and assume Starbrat is deceiving you (both reasonable things to do, incidentally), all three non-Refusal choices are equally likely to be indoctrination.

Destroy fans just assume their choice is somehow different in this regard, despite the fact it makes absolutely no sense one would activate something by shooting it and they're ultimately just going along with what Starbrat told them to do just like every other non-Refuser (apart from those who modded the game).

[Phatose]

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

[PirateMouse]

Phatose wrote...

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

Reverse-psychology indoctrination?

Yeah, I'll buy that.  Good catch.

[AlanC9]

Yep.

I enjoy this sort of thing too, from time to time. Flip back a few months in the Deception Theory thread and you'll find me there.

IIRC Refuse = Indoctrination was the IT position, though there was a faction saying that Refuse would eventually be proven to be the way you win.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

Actually, if you bring indoctrination into it, you can't destroy the Crucible as this is happening in your head. None of the options would actually destroy the Reapers. All that would matter would be the intent to destroy them. Start to see them as potential allies/tools (synthesis/control) and that's where you'd go wrong.

[PirateMouse]

KingZayd wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

Actually, if you bring indoctrination into it, you can't destroy the Crucible as this is happening in your head. None of the options would actually destroy the Reapers. All that would matter would be the intent to destroy them. Start to see them as potential allies/tools (synthesis/control) and that's where you'd go wrong.

Maybe that's just what they want you to think.

[Phatose]

They're allies in Destroy as well.

Nobody had a damned clue what the crucible actually did, or how to operate it. Reaper AI shows up out of nowhere, tells you "Here's the button to make it kill us". Acting on that information shows you already trust the Reapers, and you're already gone.

[KingZayd]

PirateMouse wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

Actually, if you bring indoctrination into it, you can't destroy the Crucible as this is happening in your head. None of the options would actually destroy the Reapers. All that would matter would be the intent to destroy them. Start to see them as potential allies/tools (synthesis/control) and that's where you'd go wrong.

Maybe that's just what they want you to think.

There is no "they". The scenario's created by Shepard's infected brain.

[KingZayd]

Phatose wrote...

They're allies in Destroy as well.

Nobody had a damned clue what the crucible actually did, or how to operate it. Reaper AI shows up out of nowhere, tells you "Here's the button to make it kill us". Acting on that information shows you already trust the Reapers, and you're already gone.

No he doesn't.

[Eckswhyzed]

KingZayd wrote...

Phatose wrote...

Actually, even refusal has good reason to be suspect if you think you might be indoctrinated. After all, it's possible in that situation that ANY action you take would have any result. If the crucible were only capable of destroying the reapers, presenting the choice becomes a way of taking advantage of your indoctrination. You take no action, when any one could've saved you. The Reapers have effectively stopped you.

The whole time thinking it's your idea, because as we've seen, indoctrination tends to distort what you already believe, not force new beliefs on you.

So, yeah. You're kind of screwed.

Actually, if you bring indoctrination into it, you can't destroy the Crucible as this is happening in your head. None of the options would actually destroy the Reapers. All that would matter would be the intent to destroy them. Start to see them as potential allies/tools (synthesis/control) and that's where you'd go wrong.

Nope, indoctrination makes you think that what you're doing is right when you're actually furthering the Reapers' goals.

Yeah, that's right. Go ahead and shoot that tube. You don't need the Reapers or anything to do with them around.

Besides, it would make sense for the Crucible to have a self-destruct mechanism to prevent capture by the Reapers....





I smell a good troll thread idea here....