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EA wins Worst Company in America award again...


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#451
TheRealJayDee

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J. Reezy wrote...

Anubis_TPF wrote...

EA has terrible customer service - day one DLC, server issues, Origin's very existence, forcing their developers to change what makes them special, high prices whenever they feel like they can get away with it, etc.

As long as Steam's very existence also rubs you the wrong way it's cool.


I can say for myself: sure does. I own no game with Steam requirement and exactly one game that forces me to use Origin. Well played, EA, for using ME3 to include me in your Origin user statistics! No other game would have managed to make me deviate from my principle...

#452
Beocat

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TheRealJayDee wrote...
I can say for myself: sure does. I own no game with Steam requirement and exactly one game that forces me to use Origin. Well played, EA, for using ME3 to include me in your Origin user statistics! No other game would have managed to make me deviate from my principle...


Actually, these BSN accounts are also "Origin" accounts (as they merged them a year or two ago)...you could log into Origin using your email and password from here.  Therefore, even though I've never used or even had Origin, I'm still part of those idiotic statistics too.  It's all EA fattening up the numbers to try to look better than it really is.  Acutely frustrating when the COO starts rambling off statistics of "satisfied Origin users" and I know that his numbers are lie in themselves.

#453
Cyonan

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Beocat wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...
I can say for myself: sure does. I own no game with Steam requirement and exactly one game that forces me to use Origin. Well played, EA, for using ME3 to include me in your Origin user statistics! No other game would have managed to make me deviate from my principle...


Actually, these BSN accounts are also "Origin" accounts (as they merged them a year or two ago)...you could log into Origin using your email and password from here.  Therefore, even though I've never used or even had Origin, I'm still part of those idiotic statistics too.  It's all EA fattening up the numbers to try to look better than it really is.  Acutely frustrating when the COO starts rambling off statistics of "satisfied Origin users" and I know that his numbers are lie in themselves.


Yeah I'm technically 2 of those 45 million users, since I have another BSN account with all my non ME3 games on it.

#454
Allan Schumacher

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I have two Steam accounts given the issues I ran into with Half-Life 2's authentication.

#455
Cyonan

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I have two Steam accounts given the issues I ran into with Half-Life 2's authentication.


A fair point. Stats often include the same people multiple times for all things.

I myself own 2 Steam accounts and officially I have 2 World of Warcraft accounts as well.

#456
Maverick827

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I really don't understand why people are against digital distribution software in principal. It's one thing to have had a bad experience with Steam or Origin (or both) in the past, but to have "never" used either yet know that you hate them completely baffles me. What is it about these things that they've never used that bothers them? How are they so sure if they've never used them before?

Taking things one step further, I understand even less the sense of entitlement these people have when it comes to having Steam or Origin "forced" on them. Why do they think that technology should stand still (or even in some cases, regress) because they don't want to use a particular piece of software?

Digital distribution software makes patching and upgrades far easier for developers. For games in particular, having an inter-studio DDS like Steam is unimaginably helpful. Why should developers have to create a different patching client for every single game they create just so these people can have a standalone executable? It gets even murkier when you take into account DLC, but I'll ignore that because I assume these people are of the "DLC shouldn't even exist" crowd.

They're essentially expecting Amazon to build some brick and mortar stores in their home town because, although they really want to buy products from them, they just don't like UPS or FedEx because a friend of theirs told them about a story he read once about how a package got lost this one time and the owner had to sit on hold for, like, twenty minutes to get a refund.

Modifié par Maverick827, 12 avril 2013 - 12:22 .


#457
spacehamsterZH

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Maverick827 wrote...

I really don't understand why people are against digital distribution software in principal.  


I dunno, I guess some people just still prefer owning a physical copy of their game? I don't understand why you don't understand that?

I'm just sayin', by the way. I actually never buy my PC games on disc myself because Steam is so much more convenient, and I hate fiddling with discs.

Digital distribution software makes patching and upgrades far easier for developers.


I don't know if I'd necessarily call that a good thing, though. If it wasn't so easy to patch games after the fact, maybe we wouldn't get so many games that are buggy as all hell at release. I know people who basically refuse to buy any new games at this point and always wait half a year, assuming by then all the necessary patches will be out and the game will actually be finished. Imagine if everyone did this - every game would bomb at release and the industry'd be dead in half a year.

As for games requiring Steam or Origin to run, I can kind of see where you're coming from (can we please have a moratorium on overuse of the word "entitlement", though? Seriously.) - the point could just as well be made that it's unfair or intrusive for a game to require a particular operating system to run. Or .NET Framework. Or any of the other software that you need to run your average game these days. 

#458
Allan Schumacher

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I'm sure that the 45 million that Moore used is to illustrate the level of market penetration and it is indeed going to be an idealized one.

The important thing with something like this is that it's a vehicle for product delivery. I first started to use Steam because I needed to for Counterstrike. My current account was created when Half-Life 2 came out, in 2004.

Looking through my email history, my first game I purchased through Steam was Orange Box, 3 years later. I received gifted copies of UT2k4 and Left 4 Dead in late 2008. Then I bought Fallout 3 in early 2009, Empire Total War, COD 4, Borderlands, THQ Complete, and Civ 4 throughout 2009.

Then in 2010 it's dozens of purchases as I basically realized "I actually prefer this service" and now it's my primary way of acquiring games.

I think the gift aspect really helped with some level of exposure, and it also seemed to help out two friends (one I gifted KOTOR to, and the other I gifted Mirror's Edge to). Both became fairly prolific Steam purchasers.


So yeah, not every person that has to install it will necessarily use it as a store front, but some will. By the sounds of it for SimCity, there was a lot of digital purchases (more than 50%) of the game in the first 1.1 million copies sold. A good chunk (most?) would have gone through Origin.

#459
Angrywolves

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EA Montreal......oops. Runs away.

#460
Allan Schumacher

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Layoffs at EA Montreal are not relevant to a discussion over a Consumerist contest regarding customer satisfaction (as the defenders of this contest are quick to remind critics).

If I see other posts of this nature bans will be issued as I'm not interested in dealing with passive aggressive snark towards EA in what has otherwise been a fairly well reasoned thread.

#461
TheJediSaint

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I at least, find myself using Steam a lot more than using Origin. The only games that I have on my Origin Account are ME3 and SWTOR. And in SWTOR's case, I don't have to run Origin in order to play it. (I run it from Steam)

I don't think my preference for Steam as anything to do with the platform itself, but with the fact I get the vast majority of my games from Steam. EA just hasn't published very many Origin exclusive games that I've been interested in.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 12 avril 2013 - 01:39 .


#462
Allan Schumacher

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Steam is still my preferred platform as well, in large part because it's where most of my games are as well.

#463
Gatt9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think it does, the whole pretense for "Day one DLC wasn't cut content" relies on the validation cycle of the platform owners. Without that delay, with a release structure such as that for the PC, this becomes a much more clear picture. Day 1 DLC would still be present, because it's a revenue initiative to stealth the price of the game up another $10, but it would lack the excuse of "These people would be idle for 3 months", and so be very obvious what the intent is.

For people who are aware of how the Industry has operated over the years, it's obvious that's what is happening even with the excuse. The old way of creating games was that pre-production would start on the next title ~6-9 months prior to release, and when the team was winding down, those people would be moved over to ramp up production on the next title. We can see this outlined in the Torment Kickstarter where Fargo talks at length about how they could do two at once.


DLC in general is a form of risk mitigation in leveraging an existing title for additional revenues with lesser overall costs compared to a full game. We could transition our teams over onto a new project, but that comes at the opportunity cost of providing content for the current game through post release content for it. I don't think it comes at a huge surprise, but DLC is created in large part to help make money.

What Fargo did with his team was take his current staffers, and rather than get funding to work on DLC, he got funding to work on a different game. Both solutions are viable, and both are done to ensure staff isn't sitting idle.

As for the "cut content" perspective, doing what you suggest would simply mean that instead of From Ashes existing and being released at Day One, some other project would have been worked on instead. If DLC (as in the incremental updates) didn't exist at all, post release content would either need to be packaged as an expansion pack.


I think a better example would probably be Tales of the Sword Coast for Baldur's Gate. Instead of sitting idle, they started their work on Tales of the Sword Coast expansion. In it, they were able to bring back in a lot of cut content since those ideas were already in place, and they were delivered as an expansion pack. Alternatively, had a DLC model existed back then, it may have been possible to split the Tales of Sword Coast expansion pack into smaller deliverables, which would have meant that some of the content would have been delivered sooner (perhaps even day one, perhaps not).


I understand what you're saying,  and I'm not saying you're a liar,  but I'm having a difficult time with your assertion on From Ashes.

The reason I'm having a difficult time with it is because Prothy has a fair amount of dialogue,  a fair portion of which is active banter between NPC's,  which indicates that the character made it through pre-production intact,  and through voice recordings,  so it was in a advanced stage of development.  While I don't know what happened,  I find it difficult to believe that EA brought back most/all of the cast to do more voice recordings late in development just to implement banter.  This is highly indicative of content that was in an advanced stage of development at the very least in parallel with the main game.  As such,  it would be strange to me that the decision was made to cut content that already had one of it's largest expenses paid for.  It strongly telegraphs to me that Prothy was cut for the specific intention of selling him alongside the main product for an extra $10,  *especially* since he's the only non-recurring character that could sell Day 1 DLC,  as he's instrumental to the lore.

I am asserting that it would be better to move those people to a different project.  The industry is horribly,  horribly,  stagnant right now.  The majority of games are just endless sequels of something that sold well,  and most of them are gravitating towards pure shooter mechanics,  with the bulk of the remainder gravitating towards action-adventure.

Regardless,  you can see my problem here.  EA asserts that this was something they came up with in the validation period,  but I'm sitting here looking at content that clearly has a high level of interaction with things that were supposedly completed,  locked down,  and voice recording that would have required the entire cast to return.  From my perspective,  what I see says "Cut Content to sell as DLC".

Keep in mind,  this isn't my first experience with EA's DLC policies.  I spent $80 on the Dead Space 2 Collectors Edition for the PC,  to get home and find out that half of the doors in my Collectors Edition game were permanently locked because I hadn't bought a pre-launch DLC that wasn't available on the PC.  So I have a really hard time believing EA wouldn't find another way to hold content hostage.

Again,  I'm not calling you a liar.  I'm just wondering if the executives who make decisions aren't deciding something is "Cut content" and "Could be a DLC" based on their ability to sell it as a DLC on day 1.  Because I can easily see them reaching a point where they can't complete everything on schedule,  deciding something needs cut,  and then instead of cutting the character least important to the story,  cutting the character most likely to sell as Day 1 DLC.  At that point,  we're no longer talking about "Cut content that wouldn't see the light of day" as the Industry generally asserts,  we're talking about content that was specifically cut for it's ability to sell as DLC.

Modifié par Gatt9, 12 avril 2013 - 01:50 .


#464
Maverick827

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

I dunno, I guess some people just still prefer owning a physical copy of their game? I don't understand why you don't understand that?

First of all, physical copies of games are starting to require either Steam or Origin anyway (Skyrim, Mass Effect 3).  Secondly, you can easily make a "physical" copy of a game yourself by throwing it onto a flash drive or external hard drive.  I put physical in quotes because it really isn't any more physical on either of those than it is on a disk.

I don't know if I'd necessarily call that a good thing, though. If it wasn't so easy to patch games after the fact, maybe we wouldn't get so many games that are buggy as all hell at release.

No, not really.  Software has and will always have bugs.  It only might seem like games are more buggy lately because the more complex they get, the more bugs they are susceptible to.

As for games requiring Steam or Origin to run, I can kind of see where you're coming from (can we please have a moratorium on overuse of the word "entitlement", though? Seriously.) - the point could just as well be made that it's unfair or intrusive for a game to require a particular operating system to run. Or .NET Framework. Or any of the other software that you need to run your average game these days. 

Intrusive?  Perhaps that point could be made, but it shouldn't be made maliciously, as some people are wont to do, because it's commonly unfeasible to develop games for anything but Windows/consoles and is really out of the hands of BioWare, EA, or anyone else.  Unfair?  I disagree.  It is not unfair for a developer to make a game for a specific operating system when you happen to be using another.  It's unfortunate for you, but it's not unfair.  Unfair, to avoid your moratorium on "entitlement," implies a sense of deservedness.  No one "deserves" to play any game any way they like to.


Gatt9 wrote...

The reason I'm having a difficult time with it is because Prothy has a fair amount of dialogue,  a fair portion of which is active banter between NPC's,  which indicates that the character made it through pre-production intact,  and through voice recordings,  so it was in a advanced stage of development.  While I don't know what happened,  I find it difficult to believe that EA brought back most/all of the cast to do more voice recordings late in development just to implement banter.  This is highly indicative of content that was in an advanced stage of development at the very least in parallel with the main game.  As such,  it would be strange to me that the decision was made to cut content that already had one of it's largest expenses paid for.  It strongly telegraphs to me that Prothy was cut for the specific intention of selling him alongside the main product for an extra $10,  *especially* since he's the only non-recurring character that could sell Day 1 DLC,  as he's instrumental to the lore.

What I read was that Javik's textures, meshes, and sound files (or at least a lot of them) were on the disc, but the actual mission to get him was not completed by the time the game went gold (as one would expect DLC to not be).  If you download ME3Explorer and open up the Default.sfar file in the Mass Effect 3/BioGame/DLC/DLC_HEN_PR folder you'll see quite a few movies and PCC (game data) files that aren't included in the CookedPCConsole folder (e.g. the main game files).  I haven't looked at any of the PCC files specifically, but they should, at the very least, contain the logic used to run the mission, if not textures and other art assets as well.

Modifié par Maverick827, 12 avril 2013 - 02:34 .


#465
hoorayforicecream

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I'd just put forth KOTOR 2 as a counterexample to Gatt9's accusations. There was a huge amount of unfinished content left on the disc, and it never saw the light of day because there was no green light for an expansion pack or DLC. If Obsidian had actually completed that additional content and released it as DLC, fans like Gatt9 would have accused them of cutting that content on purpose to sell as DLC later. As the case was, nobody ever saw the content in a finished, professional quality state, and it was only up to the player community to cobble it together in a somewhat workable form on their own.

#466
TheJediSaint

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Steam is still my preferred platform as well, in large part because it's where most of my games are as well.


Which I think is the biggest handicap that Origin has.   Most PC gamers own far more games on Steam than they do on Origin, assuming they get their games mostly through digital distribution.

As a result, most PC gamers will have Steam open more often than Origin, and therefore, will be more likely to browse Steam's store page.  Which, consequently, means they're more likly to spend their money on non-EA published games.  (Excepting older EA titles like DAO, of course.)

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 12 avril 2013 - 02:51 .


#467
Megaton_Hope

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Th'other thing is, all else being equal, Origin is Steam with less functionality, a smaller selection of games, a clunkier interface, and greater difficulty in proposing new sales to me without getting in the way of starting a game.

#468
TheJediSaint

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Megaton_Hope wrote...

Th'other thing is, all else being equal, Origin is Steam with less functionality, a smaller selection of games, a clunkier interface, and greater difficulty in proposing new sales to me without getting in the way of starting a game.


I think it really just comes down to game selection and the fact that Steam is more estalbished.   If a gamer has most of their games on a single distribution platform, they're going to use it more often because it's convientent.

#469
Maverick827

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Megaton_Hope wrote...

Th'other thing is, all else being equal, Origin is Steam with less functionality, a smaller selection of games, a clunkier interface, and greater difficulty in proposing new sales to me without getting in the way of starting a game.

How is Origin's interface clunkier?  I've found the exact opposite to be true.

#470
In Exile

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Gatt9 wrote...
The reason I'm having a difficult time with it is because Prothy has a fair amount of dialogue,  a fair portion of which is active banter between NPC's,  which indicates that the character made it through pre-production intact,  and through voice recordings,  so it was in a advanced stage of development.  While I don't know what happened,  I find it difficult to believe that EA brought back most/all of the cast to do more voice recordings late in development just to implement banter.  


I don't think that's what Allan is suggest (and it isn't what Bioware has said before, re: DLC). There is a specific DLC budget from the start, designed to recoup the cost of its production with some range of profit. The argument, however, is that this is not cut-content. Why?

Because the budget for it is separate, and it may not have been greenlight. The extra developers would not have been hired. So content would have to be removed. It might not be all Javiik, because the devs would likely decide that they want a prothean in-game. But because of the reduced content, other cuts have to be made - so for example you might lose the Eden Prime mission (you find Javiik on Mars) and you also lose one or two of the Tuchanka/Rannoch side-quests (because of the reduced manpower).

The end result is content that would have been implemented, at different stages of development, is removed. 

Again,  I'm not calling you a liar.  I'm just wondering if the executives who make decisions aren't deciding something is "Cut content" and "Could be a DLC" based on their ability to sell it as a DLC on day 1.  Because I can easily see them reaching a point where they can't complete everything on schedule,  deciding something needs cut,  and then instead of cutting the character least important to the story,  cutting the character most likely to sell as Day 1 DLC.  At that point,  we're no longer talking about "Cut content that wouldn't see the light of day" as the Industry generally asserts,  we're talking about content that was specifically cut for it's ability to sell as DLC.


Bioware's been on-record that DLC is a separately budgeted for part of the game. So content is "DLC" marked from the start. 

#471
Allan Schumacher

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

I'd just put forth KOTOR 2 as a counterexample to Gatt9's accusations. There was a huge amount of unfinished content left on the disc, and it never saw the light of day because there was no green light for an expansion pack or DLC. If Obsidian had actually completed that additional content and released it as DLC, fans like Gatt9 would have accused them of cutting that content on purpose to sell as DLC later. As the case was, nobody ever saw the content in a finished, professional quality state, and it was only up to the player community to cobble it together in a somewhat workable form on their own.


As I'm currently playing through this (with the mod, which I have not played before), it is something I thought up as well.

Mostly, in my limited experience, unless we're pressed up against disc space restrictions, it's just not worth the effort to bother actively removing the content.

#472
Allan Schumacher

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Maverick827 wrote...

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Th'other thing is, all else being equal, Origin is Steam with less functionality, a smaller selection of games, a clunkier interface, and greater difficulty in proposing new sales to me without getting in the way of starting a game.

How is Origin's interface clunkier?  I've found the exact opposite to be true.


Different people will find different things appealing or not.  I'm sure his reasons are fine for him, even if you find the opposite to be the case.  I find both the interfaces to be mostly similar.  The only thing I had to do really was change the overlay key combo in Origin.

#473
slimgrin

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I'd say Origin has a better UI than Steam. But then an outdated encyclopedia has a better interface than Steam.

#474
Ninja Stan

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Kleli wrote...

As you probably understand I do understand that EA is a company that needs to make money just as pretty much every other company out there do. Including the company that I am working for. But in these big soulless companies there are people that actually are proud of what they do and want to make a great product for their customers. What I hope for is for that passion to shine through even though the company as a whole needs to make as much money as possible. But that's what I, in many cases, am missing from EA. All I see is the urge to make more money.

That's because you're on the outside looking in. When you get on the inside, you see a lot of talented, passionate people who love their jobs and love making games. It's easy to talk about EA the big, faceless corporate monolith, but as I mentioned before, companies are run by and staffed by actual human being with apirations, bills, families, and a desire to do something awesome and productive. Heck, one of the best parts of the job for me was reading all the forum comments from fans. It's one reason I stayed on as a Moderator here even after I left the company!

But I guess that maybe I am a bit naïve on this point. The company I am working for has this central idea that a happy customer wants to come back and if you do a good enough job that customer might even recommend you to their friends. This is communicated as more important than high profit margins within my company. But I guess that is a rare trait within big companies.

It might be. But it's not as easy when it comes to companies marketing entertainment, because enjoyment is kinda nebulous and uncontrollable. Some gamers get so passionate about their games that they see every flaw as a personal attack, and every wonderful gaming experience as a personal gift from the devs. Games are either THE BEST THING EVAR or THE WORST THING EVAR on the internet; there is very little in between. The most challenging part about discussing videogames on the internet is in trying to get everyone on the same page and agreeing to certain definitions, parameters of discussion, and tone for the conversation. Gaming, kind of like religion, is an intensely personal experience and you can't help but speak subjectively about it. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but it would be better if we could discuss our differences with civility and mutual respect.

Anyway, I appreciate having a civilized and mature discussion with you. It's always great to have constructive discussions with people that have different views than oneself. =]

Agreed!

#475
Ninja Stan

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Xewaka wrote...

I bought ME3 retail, about a two weeks after release, based on schadenfreude and morbid curiosity: I had to experience in my own skin the terribad endings everyone were railing on about.

That's great! I don't think I've ever heard a better reason for buying a game! :D