My point being that most mages we have encounter are or very nearly are possessed by spirits. Velanna being the exception, not the rule.
On Morrigan, if Merrill needed to become an abomination just to fix a bloody mirror, well I'm thinking Morrigan is gonna need some help to birth and raise a god.
I think the Qunari have a point
Débuté par
Osena109
, avril 10 2013 05:11
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#27
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:57
grumpymooselion
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Merril is not an abomination. She is a blood mage. These are two different things. She needed more knowledge to fix the mirror, than she had. The mirror was one of many, they were made and you didn't need to be a blood mage or abomination to make them as far as we know. Merril just didn't have the knowledgeof their working, how they were made or how to fix them fully so to sought more knowledge. She sought it in the wrong places, but oh well, that's neither here nor there. The people we know of, that could have helped her, are long dead.
Modifié par Janan Pacha, 10 avril 2013 - 06:00 .
#28
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 06:04
Fortlowe
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I just finished a playthrough two days ago. She was going up that mountain to get herself possessed even if she didn't explicitly say so. She already had all the knowledge she could get. She needed power.
#29
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 06:13
grumpymooselion
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She needed more knowledge, knowledge that the Demon didn't know and those who did were long dead.
The effects of possession are well explained throughout DA:O and DA2. Becoming possessed wouldn't have helped her, and more than that she knew about the particular effects and outcome of possession. It's true she brought you along in case she got possessed, as a precaution, but knowing what she knew she wouldn't aim to become possessed. It wouldn't have helped her toward her goal in the least, all the power in the world wouldn't matter if she were possessed, her goal wouldn't have been completed.
In the end the Mirror didn't require a demon or blood magic, it just required tools and knowledge she didn't have. Even the Imperium couldn't figure out the mirrors, outside of using them for communication. The age of the mirrors, and the types of magics used to make them work were out of reach, long lost, even in that time, let alone by Merril's time. She sought knowledge from a creature that might still have it, since the mortal world had it no longer. She was wrong, it didn't have what she wanted, all this is true - but she wasn't an abomination at all point, as blood magic and becoming an abomination are wholly separate things. Her intent may have been more knowledge or more power, but in the end it wouldn't have been - considering everything she know about possession - to become an abomination. That wouldn't have helped her. Her goal would never have been achieved.
The effects of possession are well explained throughout DA:O and DA2. Becoming possessed wouldn't have helped her, and more than that she knew about the particular effects and outcome of possession. It's true she brought you along in case she got possessed, as a precaution, but knowing what she knew she wouldn't aim to become possessed. It wouldn't have helped her toward her goal in the least, all the power in the world wouldn't matter if she were possessed, her goal wouldn't have been completed.
In the end the Mirror didn't require a demon or blood magic, it just required tools and knowledge she didn't have. Even the Imperium couldn't figure out the mirrors, outside of using them for communication. The age of the mirrors, and the types of magics used to make them work were out of reach, long lost, even in that time, let alone by Merril's time. She sought knowledge from a creature that might still have it, since the mortal world had it no longer. She was wrong, it didn't have what she wanted, all this is true - but she wasn't an abomination at all point, as blood magic and becoming an abomination are wholly separate things. Her intent may have been more knowledge or more power, but in the end it wouldn't have been - considering everything she know about possession - to become an abomination. That wouldn't have helped her. Her goal would never have been achieved.
#30
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Posté 10 avril 2013 - 06:17
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@Fortlowe That is an interesting interpretation. I thought she brought Hawke as a safeguard because what she was going to do carried a risk of possession, but it could be that what she was going to do was possession, and she had succumbed to the pride of thinking she could control it (like many other mages' rationalization for becoming an abomination, no doubt). If that's true then perhaps Marethari knew Merrill better than some of us here would like to acknowledge.
#31
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 06:22
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Only the weak minded who succumb to demons should be shackled.
#32
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 06:23
Hazegurl
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Fortlowe wrote...
I just finished a playthrough two days ago. She was going up that mountain to get herself possessed even if she didn't explicitly say so. She already had all the knowledge she could get. She needed power.
Right, I don't know why some think Merril is somehow above possession when she was obviously obsessed with that mirror.
#33
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 12:27
Monica21
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Since it's pretty clear in-game that Wynne and Anders are abominations and that Merrill was going to be one (willingly or not) without your intervention, I don't think blood magic or possession has anything to do with a mage's willpower.
In-game lore tells us that any mage risks possession at any time and that they are most vulnerable when sleeping or otherwise unconscious. I wouldn't agree that the Qunari are right by shackling mages, and I also think the Kirkwall Circle went too far in their treatment of mages, but I certainly think that the Chantry has a point by having a Circle. There are still freedoms within the Circle that mages should be allowed, like knowing who their families are and being able to create their own families, but just because someone passed a Harrowing doesn't mean they can't be possessed.
In-game lore tells us that any mage risks possession at any time and that they are most vulnerable when sleeping or otherwise unconscious. I wouldn't agree that the Qunari are right by shackling mages, and I also think the Kirkwall Circle went too far in their treatment of mages, but I certainly think that the Chantry has a point by having a Circle. There are still freedoms within the Circle that mages should be allowed, like knowing who their families are and being able to create their own families, but just because someone passed a Harrowing doesn't mean they can't be possessed.
#34
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 12:43
TEWR
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Undoubtedly, they do have a point. Many, in fact. They've killed people with them.
....
Sorry, I had to. The Stenishok would've made a similar quip. But yes, they do have valid points. Their treatment of mages, however, is not one of them. I can understand why they do it and see it as a warped form of caring for the Mage (and society as well) but their treatment isn't really valid.
Never mind how their treatment of Mages only really works because of the Qun itself.
Actually, all evidence suggests that she wasn't going to become an Abomination. Eluvians do not link to the Fade -- per Morrigan. And Marethari speculated this with no evidence to back it up, since she refused to study the mirrors at all -- and Audacity, the demon in the Demonic Buddha statue, was sundered from the Fade with a severely diminished level of power.
And Merrill said she was not going there to free the demon/summon him from his prison.
....
Sorry, I had to. The Stenishok would've made a similar quip. But yes, they do have valid points. Their treatment of mages, however, is not one of them. I can understand why they do it and see it as a warped form of caring for the Mage (and society as well) but their treatment isn't really valid.
Never mind how their treatment of Mages only really works because of the Qun itself.
that Merrill was going to be one (willingly or not) without your intervention,
Actually, all evidence suggests that she wasn't going to become an Abomination. Eluvians do not link to the Fade -- per Morrigan. And Marethari speculated this with no evidence to back it up, since she refused to study the mirrors at all -- and Audacity, the demon in the Demonic Buddha statue, was sundered from the Fade with a severely diminished level of power.
And Merrill said she was not going there to free the demon/summon him from his prison.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 avril 2013 - 12:46 .
#35
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 01:07
Naitaka
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Osena109 wrote...
9TailsFox wrote...
Osena109 wrote...
Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?
Imagine you are mage:wizard: now answer you question.
But i am not a mage I am a Soldier
You have the potential to stab someone innocent, I think we should pre-emptively shackle and collar you before you do.
#36
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 01:08
The Elder King
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Fortlowe wrote...
I just finished a playthrough two days ago. In my opinion She was going up that mountain to get herself possessed even if she didn't explicitly say so. She already had all the knowledge she could get. She needed power.
Fixed for you, since it's only an interpretation. Not that I care that much about the subject, but there's nothing in the game that proves for certain that this was her intention.
#37
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 01:11
Welsh Inferno
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The Qunari would have a point if the entire world was like Kirkwall. But it isn't.
#38
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Posté 10 avril 2013 - 01:32
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Most white people I meet are total douchebags, doesn't mean we're all like that xD
#39
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 01:49
vortex216
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I guess collared like a dog is better then locked up like a criminal.
#40
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 03:01
Noctis Augustus
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Osena109 wrote...
Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?
Wouldn't it be best to enslave every non magically gifted human and kossith and use them as fuel for our magic? That way there wouldn't be any opressed mages.
#41
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 04:12
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ibbikiookami wrote...
Osena109 wrote...
Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?
Wouldn't it be best to enslave every non magically gifted human and kossith and use them as fuel for our magic? That way there wouldn't be any opressed mages.
Fatality
#42
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:00
Beerfish
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op does have a nice point here. I enjoy seeing pro mage crowds also be pro Qunari supporters. It just don't jive.
#43
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:11
Osena109
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Beerfish wrote...
op does have a nice point here. I enjoy seeing pro mage crowds also be pro Qunari supporters. It just don't jive.
Am not Pro Qunari am more Templer then any thing
#44
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:26
Mykel54
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The qunari are pragmatic in that they don´t care to enslave a few in order to assure the safety of the rest. So yeah they have a point, but i think the chantry does a much better job at protecting the majority while allowing a decent (or even good) life for the mages in the circles.
#45
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:33
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Filament wrote...
Justice is a demon of Vengeance who only thinks he is still a spirit of Justice. Anders' mind corrupted him.
Where did you get this? Or is it made up?
#46
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:36
Cainhurst Crow
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Jowan wasn't evil, in fact he's seems like one of the more upstanding people in the dragon age series, and he isn't possessed by any monsters or unspeakable horrors.
I think the qunari just take things far too far with their entire "know your place" stuff, I mean, sweing the mouths shut? Does that really actually stop them from becoming blood mages? We've even had a qunari maleficarum before, driven to become that way because of exactly how the qunari treat the seerabas.
What we have here is a bunch of people with power, who end up doing desperate things when they are put into very rough situations, like never being allowed to see your families, own possessions, and have to spend your entire life inside a damn tower.
You already see normal people giving in to desperation, that's why bandits and criminals exist. They are no different from blood mages and rouge mages, when you get down to it, with the only real different being that one uses magic and the others stab and cut you to death.
I think the qunari just take things far too far with their entire "know your place" stuff, I mean, sweing the mouths shut? Does that really actually stop them from becoming blood mages? We've even had a qunari maleficarum before, driven to become that way because of exactly how the qunari treat the seerabas.
What we have here is a bunch of people with power, who end up doing desperate things when they are put into very rough situations, like never being allowed to see your families, own possessions, and have to spend your entire life inside a damn tower.
You already see normal people giving in to desperation, that's why bandits and criminals exist. They are no different from blood mages and rouge mages, when you get down to it, with the only real different being that one uses magic and the others stab and cut you to death.
#47
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:38
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TinuHawke wrote...
Filament wrote...
Justice is a demon of Vengeance who only thinks he is still a spirit of Justice. Anders' mind corrupted him.
Where did you get this? Or is it made up?
Anders is constantly saying it.
#48
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:41
BouncyFrag
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Having the Arishok as a companion in Act 3 would have been great since, aside for a very few exceptions, the mages do prove his point and the banter would have been glorious.
#49
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Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:43
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Anders' codex entries and the description of his specialization, Vengeance, and all of the conversations where he talks about Justice, and prerelease statements where they explicitly called the new Justice a demon of Vengeance.TinuHawke wrote...
Filament wrote...
Justice is a demon of Vengeance who only thinks he is still a spirit of Justice. Anders' mind corrupted him.
Where did you get this? Or is it made up?
Modifié par Filament, 10 avril 2013 - 05:44 .
#50
Posté 10 avril 2013 - 05:49
Noctis Augustus
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Darth Brotarian wrote...
Jowan wasn't evil, in fact he's seems like one of the more upstanding people in the dragon age series, and he isn't possessed by any monsters or unspeakable horrors.
I think the qunari just take things far too far with their entire "know your place" stuff, I mean, sweing the mouths shut? Does that really actually stop them from becoming blood mages? We've even had a qunari maleficarum before, driven to become that way because of exactly how the qunari treat the seerabas.
What we have here is a bunch of people with power, who end up doing desperate things when they are put into very rough situations, like never being allowed to see your families, own possessions, and have to spend your entire life inside a damn tower.
You already see normal people giving in to desperation, that's why bandits and criminals exist. They are no different from blood mages and rouge mages, when you get down to it, with the only real different being that one uses magic and the others stab and cut you to death.
The Elven society is a good example of what would happen if mages were free. I don't know why people take anti-magic organizations seriously really. Most of their ideas are based on a few incidents and fear.
The greatest civilizations (Tevinter Imperium and Elvhenan) were ruled by mages so...
