199 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
The Elven society is a good example of what would happen if mages were free. I don't know why people take anti-magic organizations seriously really. Most of their ideas are based on a few incidents and fear.

The greatest civilizations (Tevinter Imperium and Elvhenan) were ruled by mages so...

So, the simple fact that a civilization becomes powerful, does not mean that, objectivelly, it's a civilization people will wish to repeat. I'm sure Tevinter is wonderful...for the Magisters. Meanwhile, anyone who is not a mage will have little to no chances of improving his quality of life through the system.

Besides, it's entirely debatable whether Tevinter is a greater civilization than Orlais. What did Tevinter, at the peak of its power, have that Orlais doesn't beyond a bigger territory?

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 avril 2013 - 06:04 .

[apascone]

Would it not be better to cut off the hands of everyone who carries a sword because then then to kill others. About 99% of the people who carries a sword we end up having to fight and kill. Would it be better for everyone carrying swords to not be able to carry swords?

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
The Elven society is a good example of what would happen if mages were free. I don't know why people take anti-magic organizations seriously really. Most of their ideas are based on a few incidents and fear.

The greatest civilizations (Tevinter Imperium and Elvhenan) were ruled by mages so...

So, the simple fact that a civilization becomes powerful, does not mean that, objectivelly, it's a civilization people will wish to repeat. I'm sure Tevinter is wonderful...for the Magisters. Meanwhile, anyone who is not a mage will have little to no chances of improving his quality of life through the system.

Besides, it's entirely debatable whether Tevinter is a greater civilization than Orlais. What did Tevinter, at the peak of its power, have that Orlais doesn't beyond a bigger territory?

And I'm sure Orlais is wonderful... for the elite (empress, nobles and chevaliers). Except for the slaves, everything else is the same. In Andrastian society everyone that is a mage will have 0 chances of improving his/her quality of life through the system so...

Besides their expansive territory that covered almost all of Thedas? The base of current human society and culture is based on ancient Tevinter. They united most of the continent's warring tribes into one civilization. They were the ones who built the imperial highway for travel and trade and other breath taking accomplishments of engineering.  Magic feats included? They were the first who obtained (not sure if history is reliable on this) Blood Magic which had many uses on their research. Magic today is based on ancient Tevinters magic, they were the ones who objectively studied magic and the world making them the first thing that most resembles scientists... Orlais? Do they even care about that? Their knowledge is deep and they still continue to advance it... unlike Orlais. Not to mention they don't have any known dogmas, like considering elves to be inferior to humans. And the most important feat? They were the only civilization who managed to enter the Fade with their physical bodies... yes with terrible consequences I know.

You missed my point. I gave two examples of two civilizations who were ruled by mages, if you don't like Tevinter then you have Elvhenan which didn't have the things you probably consider negative with Tevinter like Blood Magic and slaves.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 10 avril 2013 - 06:54 .

[RedArmyShogun]

OP is correct. Do not listen to the Lies of Ibbi the tainted, the Deciver, the Liar. Glory is found only in the Qun.

[Noctis Augustus]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

OP is correct. Do not listen to the Lies of Ibbi the tainted, the Deciver, the Liar. Glory is found only in the Qun.

Lol Red...

[RedArmyShogun]

ibbikiookami wrote...

RedArmyShogun wrote...

OP is correct. Do not listen to the Lies of Ibbi the tainted, the Deciver, the Liar. Glory is found only in the Qun.

Lol Red...

Silly Mage Bas, you laugh at me however, you are but Maraas imekari.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

[KainD]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Now we're getting into the freedom vs. public safety debate that people still don't have a satisfactory answer for.

The answer is - people on these forums have been raised having different morals. 
People that believe that freedom is more important than public safety and people that believe that public safety is more important than freedom. Both valid opinion. 
This debates are the same as the ones about apples and oranges. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

RedArmyShogun wrote...


Silly Mage Bas, you laugh at me however, you are but Maraas imekari.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

Teth a maraas imekari. Basra vashedan ataash varin kata, anaan esaam talan bas saarebas. Ashkost say anaan taam Tevinter, asit talan kadan.

Meravas, maraas shokra, panahadan.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 10 avril 2013 - 08:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Fortlowe wrote...

My point being that most mages we have encounter are or very nearly are possessed by spirits. Velanna being the exception, not the rule.

On Morrigan, if Merrill needed to become an abomination just to fix a bloody mirror, well I'm thinking Morrigan is gonna need some help to birth and raise a god.

The Howe mages aren't, on a good day none of the Circle mages are, the collective mages don't seem to be. Lanaya isn't, Zathrian... is complicated, but not really possessed per se. Nor is what he is portrayed as a good thing. As for the rest of the Keepers, given the way possession usually works, they probably couldn't exist if most Keepers were possessed.

With regards to Merrill, The impression I got was that she was trying to avoid it, not seeking it out. If she kept Hawke around, it's merely because she knew that it might happen. Thus, this is no longer proof that Morrigan was possessed, if it was even before.

As for Anders, he proves the opposite of what you were arguing originally. He took a benevolent spirit into himself and both he and it became corrupted. Thus proving that it's always potentially dangerous to let a spirit inside you.

As for Flemeth and Andraste, they don't prove anything because we have no idea what they are.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 avril 2013 - 08:22 .

[sandalisthemaker]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

RedArmyShogun wrote...

OP is correct. Do not listen to the Lies of Ibbi the tainted, the Deciver, the Liar. Glory is found only in the Qun.

Lol Red...

Silly Mage Bas, you laugh at me however, you are but Maraas imekari.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

Begone fanatics! 
May Andraste have mercy on you lot!

[Beerfish]

Osena109 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

op does have a nice point here. I enjoy seeing pro mage crowds also be pro Qunari supporters. It just don't jive.

Am not Pro Qunari am more Templer then any thing 

I was not referring to you.  I was referring to many other people on these forums that want freeeeedooommm! for the mages but also like the Qunari.

[JerZey CJ]

Osena109 wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Morriagan, Anders, and Wynne weren't possessed by demons and turned into blood mages, and they're the popular ones. Only the weak minded turn to a demon for help. Look at Flemeth that woman is so crafty she probably took control over the demon that tried to possess her (though we don't know if she was actually possess or a demon herself).

Wynne was kinda possessed  Anders was possessed morriagan well she was morriagan

Wynne's was a "spirit" not a demon and it appeared to be benevolent
Anders/Justice was a good spirit up until Anders became a willing host to the Justice spirit which ANDERS corrupted.
Morrigan...well yeah she's Morrigan. She would would probably scoff at a demon and tell it to waste its time elsewhere.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Morriagan, Anders, and Wynne weren't possessed by demons and turned into blood mages, and they're the popular ones. Only the weak minded turn to a demon for help. Look at Flemeth that woman is so crafty she probably took control over the demon that tried to possess her (though we don't know if she was actually possess or a demon herself).

Wynne was kinda possessed  Anders was possessed morriagan well she was morriagan

Wynne's was a "spirit" not a demon and it appeared to be benevolent
Anders/Justice was a good spirit up until Anders became a willing host to the Justice spirit which ANDERS corrupted.
Morrigan...well yeah she's Morrigan. She would would probably scoff at a demon and tell it to waste its time elsewhere.

I think I remember her doing that my first time through the Fade at Redcliffe.

[ScarMK]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

mosesarose wrote...

Morriagan, Anders, and Wynne weren't possessed by demons and turned into blood mages, and they're the popular ones. Only the weak minded turn to a demon for help. Look at Flemeth that woman is so crafty she probably took control over the demon that tried to possess her (though we don't know if she was actually possess or a demon herself).

Wynne was kinda possessed  Anders was possessed morriagan well she was morriagan

Wynne's was a "spirit" not a demon and it appeared to be benevolent
Anders/Justice was a good spirit up until Anders became a willing host to the Justice spirit which ANDERS corrupted.
Morrigan...well yeah she's Morrigan. She would would probably scoff at a demon and tell it to waste its time elsewhere.

I think I remember her doing that my first time through the Fade at Redcliffe.

Morrigan conversing with a demon is just a polite version of "F*** off.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
The Elven society is a good example of what would happen if mages were free. I don't know why people take anti-magic organizations seriously really. Most of their ideas are based on a few incidents and fear.

The greatest civilizations (Tevinter Imperium and Elvhenan) were ruled by mages so...

So, the simple fact that a civilization becomes powerful, does not mean that, objectivelly, it's a civilization people will wish to repeat. I'm sure Tevinter is wonderful...for the Magisters. Meanwhile, anyone who is not a mage will have little to no chances of improving his quality of life through the system.

Besides, it's entirely debatable whether Tevinter is a greater civilization than Orlais. What did Tevinter, at the peak of its power, have that Orlais doesn't beyond a bigger territory?

Giant golems and almost all of orzammar as their allies? The successful repullsion of multiple great marches? Almost every archetectural structure bases and the entire imperial highway? Writting? Reading? Basic fundamental rule of law into societies?

Pretty much the tevinter imperium is rome and greece combined into one, so thedas owes them quite a bit actually.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 10 avril 2013 - 09:10 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

ScarMK wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

JerZeyCJ2 wrote...

Wynne's was a "spirit" not a demon and it appeared to be benevolent
Anders/Justice was a good spirit up until Anders became a willing host to the Justice spirit which ANDERS corrupted.
Morrigan...well yeah she's Morrigan. She would would probably scoff at a demon and tell it to waste its time elsewhere.

I think I remember her doing that my first time through the Fade at Redcliffe.

Morrigan conversing with a demon is just a polite version of "F*** off.

I don't remember her being polite...

[BouncyFrag]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

RedArmyShogun wrote...

OP is correct. Do not listen to the Lies of Ibbi the tainted, the Deciver, the Liar. Glory is found only in the Qun.

Lol Red...

Silly Mage Bas, you laugh at me however, you are but Maraas imekari.

Shok ebasit hissra. Meraad astaarit, meraad itwasit, aban aqun. Maraas shokra. Anaan esaam Qun.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
And I'm sure Orlais is wonderful... for the elite (empress, nobles and chevaliers). Except for the slaves, everything else is the same. In Andrastian society everyone that is a mage will have 0 chances of improving his/her quality of life through the system so...

I won't claim that Orlais has no faults and I will not defend feudalism and the nobilty but the fact that there is no slavery is already a plus for Orlais and other Andrastian countries. The lack of objective birth-based distinctions such as magic lays the foundations for a more, for lack of a better word, equal society.
Also, a peasant like Loghain could become part of the nobility through suficient work and intelligence. When was the last time a non-mage was Archon in Tevinter? 

Mages can become Enchanters. The First Enchanter is even present at the court of the Divine or Empress, for instance. A most prestigious position.

Besides their expansive territory that covered almost all of Thedas? The base of current human society and culture is based on ancient Tevinter. They united most of the continent's warring tribes into one civilization. They were the ones who built the imperial highway for travel and trade and other breath taking accomplishments of engineering.  Magic feats included? They were the first who obtained (not sure if history is reliable on this) Blood Magic which had many uses on their research. Magic today is based on ancient Tevinters magic, they were the ones who objectively studied magic and the world making them the first thing that most resembles scientists... Orlais? Do they even care about that? Their knowledge is deep and they still continue to advance it... unlike Orlais. Not to mention they don't have any known dogmas, like considering elves to be inferior to humans. And the most important feat? They were the only civilization who managed to enter the Fade with their physical bodies... yes with terrible consequences I know.

It is true that Tevinter conducted some of the most extensive studies of magic but if it has no practical influence in day to day life, it can't be considered to be an advantage over Orlais. Tevinters built the Imperial Highway with magic but non-mages can and have also built the infrastructures of their societies. Val-Royeaux, for instance, was not built on some Tevinter ruins. Do the tevinters have magical-based technology the rest of Thedas lacks?

The fact that their culture came to influence the rest of Thedas is inevitably true altough, one could argue as to the extent of this. After Andraste's rebellion, Southern Thedas devolved again into warring tribes and cities until they were unified again, this time by a non-mage, Emperor Drakon I.

You missed my point. I gave two examples of two civilizations who were ruled by mages, if you don't like Tevinter then you have Elvhenan which didn't have the things you probably consider negative with Tevinter like Blood Magic and slaves.

All that we know of Arlathan comes from half forgotten legends. If it was anything like the Dalish clans are today, then it was an authoritarian magocracy as well.

[InfinitePaths]

The qunari are just full of BS.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
And I'm sure Orlais is wonderful... for the elite (empress, nobles and chevaliers). Except for the slaves, everything else is the same. In Andrastian society everyone that is a mage will have 0 chances of improving his/her quality of life through the system so...

I won't claim that Orlais has no faults and I will not defend feudalism and the nobilty but the fact that there is no slavery is already a plus for Orlais and other Andrastian countries. The lack of objective birth-based distinctions such as magic lays the foundations for a more, for lack of a better word, equal society.

According to the codex, every Andrastean country sells its citizens as slaves to Tevinter. They just pretend not to. Not to mention that according to that same Codex, Orlesian elven servants are really more like slaves. They're just treated better than a typical slave to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal.

Also, a peasant like Loghain could become part of the nobility through suficient work and intelligence. When was the last time a non-mage was Archon in Tevinter? 

That's not Orlais, though. I think Orlesian nobles are born, not made. And frankly, even Loghain probably gets some crap for his social climb. Eamon certainly doesn't like the thought of Anora ruling.

[MisterJB]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
According to the codex, every Andrastean country sells its citizens as slaves to Tevinter. They just pretend not to. Not to mention that according to that same Codex, Orlesian elven servants are really more like slaves. They're just treated better than a typical slave to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal.

The codex does not suggest the governing bodies of Andrastean countries actually sell its citizens into slavery. Only that slavers operate all around Thedas which they do but, likely, illegally.
As for Orlais, we also have Leliana claiming that there is no slavery there; even if she comes to acknowledge there is a certain racism inherent to the system; we have Isabela who was willing to dump the "cargo" (elves) overboard when faced with an orlesian ship exactly because they hang slavers and we have the wiki entry into slavery claiming that laws against nobles keeping elves as slaves such as Fiona's owner did are becoming more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne which is likely given her elven lover.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That's not Orlais, though. I
think Orlesian nobles are born, not made. And frankly, even Loghain
probably gets some crap for his social climb. Eamon certainly doesn't
like the thought of Anora ruling.

Probrably altough Anora is also beloved and respected for her intelligence. It's not an 100% egalitarian society but it's far better than Tevinter or, and I admit, Orlais.
Do you remember than elven shopkeeper? He was a former slave and he actually says that the Alienage is "everything worth fighting for".
I mean, Holy Crap! How awful is Tevinter?

Modifié par MisterJB, 10 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
And I'm sure Orlais is wonderful... for the elite (empress, nobles and chevaliers). Except for the slaves, everything else is the same. In Andrastian society everyone that is a mage will have 0 chances of improving his/her quality of life through the system so...

I won't claim that Orlais has no faults and I will not defend feudalism and the nobilty but the fact that there is no slavery is already a plus for Orlais and other Andrastian countries. The lack of objective birth-based distinctions such as magic lays the foundations for a more, for lack of a better word, equal society.
Also, a peasant like Loghain could become part of the nobility through suficient work and intelligence. When was the last time a non-mage was Archon in Tevinter? 

Mages can become Enchanters. The First Enchanter is even present at the court of the Divine or Empress, for instance. A most prestigious position.

Besides their expansive territory that covered almost all of Thedas? The base of current human society and culture is based on ancient Tevinter. They united most of the continent's warring tribes into one civilization. They were the ones who built the imperial highway for travel and trade and other breath taking accomplishments of engineering.  Magic feats included? They were the first who obtained (not sure if history is reliable on this) Blood Magic which had many uses on their research. Magic today is based on ancient Tevinters magic, they were the ones who objectively studied magic and the world making them the first thing that most resembles scientists... Orlais? Do they even care about that? Their knowledge is deep and they still continue to advance it... unlike Orlais. Not to mention they don't have any known dogmas, like considering elves to be inferior to humans. And the most important feat? They were the only civilization who managed to enter the Fade with their physical bodies... yes with terrible consequences I know.

It is true that Tevinter conducted some of the most extensive studies of magic but if it has no practical influence in day to day life, it can't be considered to be an advantage over Orlais. Tevinters built the Imperial Highway with magic but non-mages can and have also built the infrastructures of their societies. Val-Royeaux, for instance, was not built on some Tevinter ruins. Do the tevinters have magical-based technology the rest of Thedas lacks?

The fact that their culture came to influence the rest of Thedas is inevitably true altough, one could argue as to the extent of this. After Andraste's rebellion, Southern Thedas devolved again into warring tribes and cities until they were unified again, this time by a non-mage, Emperor Drakon I.

You missed my point. I gave two examples of two civilizations who were ruled by mages, if you don't like Tevinter then you have Elvhenan which didn't have the things you probably consider negative with Tevinter like Blood Magic and slaves.

All that we know of Arlathan comes from half forgotten legends. If it was anything like the Dalish clans are today, then it was an authoritarian magocracy as well.

It can't? Ignorance isn't exactly a compliment.That's because mages are locked up in towers, how can magic have practical day-to-day uses outside of them? No they built the imperial highway with Dwarven help and slaves not exactly just magic besides it was more than a 1000 years ago... What does it matter how they built what? Wouldn't be surprised if Val Royaeux was built on the foundations of a Tevinter settlement, again what does it matter? Who knows? They probably have... besides we have already seen magical devices created by Tevinter before like the dog statue beneath the Circle of Magi in DAO.

Yes Andraste rebelled and managed to go as far as she did because the Imperium was weakened by the blight... and now Orlais plans to do the same and exploit the weakeness caused by the blight in Ferelden. So... you're comparing someone who united the city states of a part of Thedas to someone who united almost all of Thedas?

Lol... There were no non-mages before humans arrived in Thedas according to history and when you gain the Arcane warrior specialization. And I can tell you the Dalish keepers are not authoritarian, they're more like guides.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 10 avril 2013 - 10:15 .