199 réponses à ce sujet

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
According to the codex, every Andrastean country sells its citizens as slaves to Tevinter. They just pretend not to. Not to mention that according to that same Codex, Orlesian elven servants are really more like slaves. They're just treated better than a typical slave to maintain the fiction that slavery is illegal.

The codex does not suggest the governing bodies of Andrastean countries actually sell its citizens into slavery. Only that slavers operate all around Thedas which they do but, likely, illegally.
As for Orlais, we also have Leliana claiming that there is no slavery there; even if she comes to acknowledge there is a certain racism inherent to the system; we have Isabela who was willing to dump the "cargo" (elves) overboard when faced with an orlesian ship exactly because they hang slavers and we have the wiki entry into slavery claiming that laws against nobles keeping elves as slaves such as Fiona's owner did are becoming more strictly upheld since Celene ascended to the throne which is likely given her elven lover.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That's not Orlais, though. I
think Orlesian nobles are born, not made. And frankly, even Loghain
probably gets some crap for his social climb. Eamon certainly doesn't
like the thought of Anora ruling.

Probrably altough Anora is also beloved and respected for her intelligence. It's not an 100% egalitarian society but it's far better than Tevinter or, and I admit, Orlais.
Do you remember than elven shopkeeper? He was a former slave and he actually says that the Alienage is "everything worth fighting for".
I mean, Holy Crap! How awful is Tevinter?

Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

[Osena109]

 I just want to thank you all this has this has been a civil discussion and lets keep it that way but i do belive all of Thedas would be better and safer place if mages would locked away tight and the key misplaced

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
It can't? Ignorance isn't exactly a compliment.That's because mages are locked up in towers, how can magic have practical day-to-day uses outside of them? No they built the imperial highway with Dwarven help and slaves not exactly just magic besides it was more than a 1000 years ago... What does it matter how they built what? Wouldn't be surprised if Val Royaeux was built on the foundations of a Tevinter settlement, again what does it matter? Who knows? They probably have... besides we have already seen magical devices created by Tevinter before like the dog statue beneath the Circle of Magi in DAO.

If you claim that Tevinter is the greatest human civilization in Thedas, then you are opening yourself up for someone to contest this.
While ignorace is not a compliment, I wouldn't say that knowledge of the Fade, for instance, is more important than the magical glowlights used by Val-Royeaux to illuminate its streets (Asunder) which also proves that magic can be used in day to day life while the mages remains secure in the Circle.
The dog statue which amplifies spells. It was used to blast a wall. Non-mages have catapults.

Yes Andraste rebelled and managed to go as far as she did because the Imperium was weakened by the blight... and now Orlais plans to do the same and exploit the weakeness caused by the blight in Ferelden. So... you're comparing someone who united the city states of a part of Thedas to someone who united almost all of Thedas?

If we count the Tevinter Imperium as a sole entity regardless of who was Archon, then it's only fair we do the same for Orlais which once encompassed more territory than it does in the Dragon Age such as the Free Marches and Ferelden.
It is also worth noting that Drakon united those city states in his lifetime alone.

Lol... There were no non-mages before humans arrived in Thedas according to history and when you gain the Arcane warrior specialization. And I can tell you the Dalish keepers are not authoritarian, they're more like guides.

Maybe there were, maybe there weren't.
The Keeper exert the totality of power within the Clan with no legal way for any elf to override any of the Keeper's decisions regardless of motive. That makes the Keeper an authoritarian even if, in general, they are more benevolent than the Magisters.

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
It can't? Ignorance isn't exactly a compliment.That's because mages are locked up in towers, how can magic have practical day-to-day uses outside of them? No they built the imperial highway with Dwarven help and slaves not exactly just magic besides it was more than a 1000 years ago... What does it matter how they built what? Wouldn't be surprised if Val Royaeux was built on the foundations of a Tevinter settlement, again what does it matter? Who knows? They probably have... besides we have already seen magical devices created by Tevinter before like the dog statue beneath the Circle of Magi in DAO.

If you claim that Tevinter is the greatest human civilization in Thedas, then you are opening yourself up for someone to contest this.
While ignorace is not a compliment, I wouldn't say that knowledge of the Fade, for instance, is more important than the magical glowlights used by Val-Royeaux to illuminate its streets (Asunder) which also proves that magic can be used in day to day life while the mages remains secure in the Circle.
The dog statue which amplifies spells. It was used to blast a wall. Non-mages have catapults.

Yes Andraste rebelled and managed to go as far as she did because the Imperium was weakened by the blight... and now Orlais plans to do the same and exploit the weakeness caused by the blight in Ferelden. So... you're comparing someone who united the city states of a part of Thedas to someone who united almost all of Thedas?

If we count the Tevinter Imperium as a sole entity regardless of who was Archon, then it's only fair we do the same for Orlais which once encompassed more territory than it does in the Dragon Age such as the Free Marches and Ferelden.
It is also worth noting that Drakon united those city states in his lifetime alone.

Lol... There were no non-mages before humans arrived in Thedas according to history and when you gain the Arcane warrior specialization. And I can tell you the Dalish keepers are not authoritarian, they're more like guides.

Maybe there were, maybe there weren't.
The Keeper exert the totality of power within the Clan with no legal way for any elf to override any of the Keeper's decisions regardless of motive. That makes the Keeper an authoritarian even if, in general, they are more benevolent than the Magisters.

It's knowledge, I consider knowledge very important... it also counters supersticion, and Andrastian societies are ruled by it. And you think Tevinter doesn't use that sort of magic?
It was an example.

We don't have records of which Archon conquered what. So what do you expect me to say? Although it is said that the first Archon formed an empire, empires are not small...

No, they're not: "A Keeper is a leader of Dalish
elves, both in the spiritual sense, as well as the literal. They are
not thought of as rulers, however. The families within a clan listen to
their Keeper because the Keeper is wise, and it is tradition."  The families have a say in the "ruling". More benevolent than the Magisters and any ruler in Thedas.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 10 avril 2013 - 11:35 .

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 10 avril 2013 - 11:01 .

[volaticus]

ibbikiookami wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

what's funny is that I've always felt that either

A the maker doesn't exist and that the tale was just made to keep mages in their place (or that andraste herself is the maker).
B the maker is more evil than the 7 dragons (probably dumat) or one of the dragons
C Flemeth is the maker since she acts as if she knows much more than she leads you to believe (At the same time she could also be a dragon so anyway)
D All of these are poppycock

Anyway those are the feelings I get.

Modifié par volaticus, 10 avril 2013 - 11:25 .

[BouncyFrag]

volaticus wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

what's funny is that I've always felt that either

A the maker doesn't exist and that the tale was just made to keep mages in their place (or that andraste herself is the maker).
B the maker is more evil than the 7 dragons (probably dumat) or one of the dragons
C Flemeth is the maker since she acts as if she knows much more than she leads you to believe (At the same time she could also be a dragon so anyway)
D All of these are poppycock

Anyway those are the feelings I get.

E. The truth shall set you free!
:innocent:

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Osena109 wrote...

 I just want to thank you all this has this has been a civil discussion and lets keep it that way but i do belive all of Thedas would be better and safer place if mages would locked away tight and the key misplaced

If you mean literally not using them at all, you're not properly prioritizing. The Tevinters, Qunari, and darkspawn all have mages, and mages are apparently necessary for the Joining, which is necessary to end the Blight. Not to mention that until the Circles were unleashed, Thedas was apparently losing to the qunari due less to the qunari mages, and more to qunari cannons. So mages are needed to handle all those threats, possibly more. The Tevinters and Qunari won't agree not to use mages, and even if the darkspawn didn't have them, mages are apparently necessary to win against them in any meaningful way. Securing the mages is a good idea, completely sealing them away is not.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 avril 2013 - 11:55 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, of course the Qunari have a point.

Two of them, in fact. Those ox men and their horns...

[Mr.Sink123]

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

[Fast Jimmy]

Freedom isn't free.

Freedom costs a buck-o-fiiiiiiiiiiiiive...

[Goneaviking]

mosesarose wrote...

Morriagan, Anders, and Wynne weren't possessed by demons and turned into blood mages, and they're the popular ones. Only the weak minded turn to a demon for help. Look at Flemeth that woman is so crafty she probably took control over the demon that tried to possess her (though we don't know if she was actually possess or a demon herself).

Wynne and Anders were both possessed by spirits. Anders and the spirit corrupted and destroyed each other, killed a bunch of people directly and set about a chain of events that will ultimately result in the deaths of thousands.

Wynne was happy to accept the status quo, the acceptance of her situation and the way the mages may well be why she didn't go mad and enter a kill frenzy a la Anders/Justice/Vengeance in all three chapters of DA2.

Morrigan benefited from the tutelage of one of the oldest and most experienced mages in Thedas, a being who defies definition and may well prove immortal. Most mages aren't that fortunate.

It's not the weak who bargain with demons, just the foolish. The weak have their minds taken from them instead of bartering them away.

The strength of Dragon Age is that all factions, save the Dark Spawn, make valid and compelling arguments for their actions and beliefs.

[Hazegurl]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

Sometimes I wonder where are the posters who are outraged by the unjust treatment, murder, and overall corruption of the alienages. I guess you only deserve freedom and a good life if you are a mage.:innocent:

[Goneaviking]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

It's amazing how eager people are to ignore all the positive Chantry figures we see in DA:O and just concentrate on the negatives which are more reflective of the society as a whole than just the religious community.

How many people do we see in Thedas doing charity work who aren't involved with the Chantry in some way?

[Vit246]

Osena109 wrote...

 I just want to thank you all this has this has been a civil discussion and lets keep it that way but i do belive all of Thedas would be better and safer place if mages would locked away tight and the key misplaced

That and worse was already happening for 900 years in Thedas. And then they had enough of it and nothing else to lose.

Mr.Sink123

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

A gilded cage is still a cage. And its not like the Circle is the ONLY place for mages to have a room, bed, good food and books.

You make lack of freedom sound like no big deal. That lack of freedom means you cannot pick when to go through the Harrowing, which you don't even know what it is, and they never taught you anything about demons. If they summon you and you refuse to go, they either lobotmize you, execute you, or send you to an even worse prison where the Veil is very very thin.

Also, if you're even just suspected of knowing forbidden magic, you are summarily executed or lobotomized. No trial. 

So many mages practically have no control over their lives. Thats why they're mad. Basic food and shelter is not worth living under the control of the Chantry and their Templar soldiers.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

I suspect there are millions of people in our world who would kill their mothers to be admitted into a prison palace where you're fed, clothed, educated.
Yes, the Chantry is great. Extablishing a stable society ruled by law, sheltering the poor, evacuating villages after its Bann fled the Darkspawn, containing mages in an humane manner, forcing Andrastean nations to take in elven refugees rather than just wipe them out.
Hey, I can even link you to a post from David Gaider himself who says that the Chantry is mostly benefitial in nature and that it sees the Circle system as an unfortunate necessity.
That's Word of God right there.

[Vit246]

double post.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[MisterJB]

ibbikiookami wrote...
The families have a say in the "ruling".

Dragon Age 2. The clan says "Let's move". The Keeper says "No".
Result, the clan doesn't move and important people like the chief crafter see no alternative but abandon the clan. That's an authoritarian system.

[Goneaviking]

Vit246 wrote...
You make lack of freedom sound like no big deal. 

Because freedom means so much to people with no food to give to their children. Throughout most of history, and today in many places, people struggle to find enough resources to get enough to feed their children and somewhere safe to raise them.

Freedom doesn't rate in the top three needs, and the people who've fought for it have always been the people living in relative comfort.

Somehow I don't think an elf starving in an alienage feels a lot of sympathy for mages locked in their towers.

Please don't take that to mean I'm not on the Mages' side in the argument, but every time someone invokes words like "Freedom" as though they were some magical argument or some inherent right of all men and elves I remember the people who invoked "Democracy" to justify invading Iraq.

There are plenty of arguments to support the mages perspective without practicing jingoism.

[Mr.Sink123]

Vit246 wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

 I just want to thank you all this has this has been a civil discussion and lets keep it that way but i do belive all of Thedas would be better and safer place if mages would locked away tight and the key misplaced

That and worse was already happening for 900 years in Thedas. And then they had enough of it and nothing else to lose.

Mr.Sink123

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

A gilded cage is still a cage. And its not like the Circle is the ONLY place for mages to have a room, bed, good food and books.

You make lack of freedom sound like no big deal. That lack of freedom means you cannot pick when to go through the Harrowing, which you don't even know what it is, and they never taught you anything about demons. If they summon you and you refuse to go, they either lobotmize you, execute you, or send you to an even worse prison where the Veil is very very thin.

Also, if you're even just suspected of knowing forbidden magic, you are summarily executed or lobotomized. No trial. 

So many mages practically have no control over their lives. Thats why they're mad. Basic food and shelter is not worth living under the control of the Chantry and their Templar soldiers.

You just missed the point, where i said, that no one in Thedas is free, only  a few rich people can decide what they do with their life and even they dont have much room.

Modifié par Mr.Sink123, 11 avril 2013 - 01:29 .

[Silfren]

Fortlowe wrote...

I think Uldred had a point. Maybe Mages are meant to be inhabited by spirits. Maybe instead of training them to avoid it, they should be taught to avoid the **** spirits, get hitched to a nice spirit, and remain in control. Magic comes from the Fade yes? Spirits shape the Fade. Shape magic. Maybe this is what that old verse 'magic is meant to serve man...' is all about?

Keep in mind we don't have a clue what the deal is with either Flemeth or Andraste.  Theories on them being OGBs are purely fan speculation, without any real definitive support just yet. 

On the quoted bit, I think there may be some merit to the idea of mages being trained to seek out benevolent Fade spirits.  By all appearances, the Rivaini mage-seers already do this, and we can see from Wynne that possession is not inherently or inevitably an invitation to madness and destruction.  For me, it's just more evidence that the Chantry's policy of suppression of magical research does much more harm than good.

[WardenWade]

Hazegurl wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Lol... It's almost as bad for the Elves as it is for the mages in Andrastian societies... so it's pretty bad.

Who likes to be a slave?

Did you know that the Circle of Orlais was extablished in Drakon's former palace? So, basically, the mages were living where an emperor used to.
Actual slaves and the free elves of the Alienage live much worse lives.

Sometimes I wonder where are the posters who are outraged by the unjust treatment, murder, and overall corruption of the alienages. I guess you only deserve freedom and a good life if you are a mage.:innocent:

We are here   It's a hard old world for many people in Thedas, I think, mages and non-mages and humans and non-humans alike.  Few are free, either literally or figuratively.

Modifié par WardenWade, 11 avril 2013 - 01:40 .

[Knight of Dane]

Filament wrote...

I would think Anders is a primary example of why seeking a "benevolent" spirit is the path to ruin. Merrill comments on this herself, though all the years with Anders not completely losing control might have given her second thoughts.

Seems to me that Wynne got lucky her "faith" spirit did not contort into zealotry or what-have-you.

Well it showed in Asunder that even Wynnes Spirit can... enchance... her abilities.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 11 avril 2013 - 01:40 .