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[Silfren]

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

I never really understood why people can't figure out why having a room, a bed, good food, etc. don't make up for lack of freedom.

Have YOU ever been in a situation where you had a room, a bed, good food, but couldn't actually leave your house without permission and without being under armed guard, and found that getting that permission was hard to come by, being utterly reliant on the mood of your guard?  Oh, and don't forget the utter lack of privacy.  You may have a personal room, but you are under constant guard to the extent that you don't have anything approaching true privacy at all. 

Try that for a while. Seriously, try living so that you literally cannot leave your house, EVER, without securing permission, and even then NEVER without an armed escort.  Get back with me on how much you think those "perks" of a private room and food make up for it.

In the real world, 99% of people are not truly free in a literal sense, being tied at the very least to jobs, if nothing else, and certainly most privileges in life are directly tied to how much money a person can afford to use for things other than bare necessities.  But that does NOT mean that most of us who live in Westernized countries wouldn't seriously chafe at the idea of being locked in a building, never allowed to leave its premises and being under literally constant scrutiny.

And don't come back with "but there's REASONS FOR THAT" because the reasons are irrelevant to the fact that the average person is NOT going to appreciate having their freedom of movement and privacy taken away, the reasons for that loss of freedom be damned.

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

I would think Anders is a primary example of why seeking a "benevolent" spirit is the path to ruin. Merrill comments on this herself, though all the years with Anders not completely losing control might have given her second thoughts.

Seems to me that Wynne got lucky her "faith" spirit did not contort into zealotry or what-have-you.

Anders shows that it is POSSIBLE.  The counter-example of Wynne is de facto proof that it is not inevitable. 

ETA:  And she is but one example.  We are told that Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed.  We are also very tellingly NOT told that Rivaini is a dead and smoking ruin, which stands a pretty compelling evidence that becoming possessed of a spirit does not automatically lead to death and destruction.

Modifié par Silfren, 11 avril 2013 - 01:50 .

[Vit246]

Goneaviking wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
You make lack of freedom sound like no big deal. 

Because freedom means so much to people with no food to give to their children. Throughout most of history, and today in many places, people struggle to find enough resources to get enough to feed their children and somewhere safe to raise them.

Freedom doesn't rate in the top three needs, and the people who've fought for it have always been the people living in relative comfort.

Somehow I don't think an elf starving in an alienage feels a lot of sympathy for mages locked in their towers.

Please don't take that to mean I'm not on the Mages' side in the argument, but every time someone invokes words like "Freedom" as though they were some magical argument or some inherent right of all men and elves I remember the people who invoked "Democracy" to justify invading Iraq.

There are plenty of arguments to support the mages perspective without practicing jingoism.

Lets try to keep the discussion confined to the context of the DA universe.
I'm not talking about FREEDOM. And I didn't say freedom was worth starvation, and I guess it depends on the mages who consider the Circle system to either be worth going hungry it or not. If the system works out for them, great. But for a large number of mages, not so much after all. They would consider getting food and shelter outside the system to be harder but worth it. And for them its not so hard.
And again, the people living in relative comfort also live in relative risk at the mercy of their armed jailers who are trained to fear and hate magic and granted nearly unlimited authority over their lives.

Modifié par Vit246, 11 avril 2013 - 02:05 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

I suspect there are millions of people in our world who would kill their mothers to be admitted into a prison palace where you're fed, clothed, educated.
Yes, the Chantry is great. Extablishing a stable society ruled by law, sheltering the poor, evacuating villages after its Bann fled the Darkspawn, containing mages in an humane manner, forcing Andrastean nations to take in elven refugees rather than just wipe them out.
Hey, I can even link you to a post from David Gaider himself who says that the Chantry is mostly benefitial in nature and that it sees the Circle system as an unfortunate necessity.
That's Word of God right there.

You keep saying this, keep saying that food, shelter, clothing and education is worth so much more than freedom that people would kill their own kin for it.  Do you have any actual proof of  this happening in great numbers?  You SUSPECT.  But have you ever actually KNOWN people who would happily prefer literal and total lockdown and constant supervision if it means food and shelter, to the extent they'd kill their closest relatives to get it?

There's freedom, and then there's freedom.  As I mentioned in a previous post, it is true that most of us are only as free as our pocketbooks allow.  HOWEVER, even in financial terms, most of us have the very basic freedom to come and go as we please on a daily basis.  Those of us who have not forfeited our freedom by breaking a law that lands us in jail, even the poorest among us who are wage slaves, as it were, we nevertheless do NOT have to ask permission to go outside, we don't have to go outside with armed escorts, and, at least generally most of us don't have to sneak around to have romantic relations with whomever we please.

I truly don't get what is so difficult about this.  You make it sound as if very basic freedoms--the sort that even YOU take for granted--are superficial trifles.  I, for one, DO know people who live under restrictive conditions, who do have access to food and shelter and even certain perks of entertainment, who nevertheless find it VERY chafing to have to live under the rules they do.  There's reasons for the rules, and the people who live in this situation are there because they have little other alternative (I'm not speaking of imprisoned criminals, mind you), but that doesn't change the fact that they very much dislike the restrictions on their personal freedoms. 

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ETA:  And she is but one example.  We are told that Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed.  We are also very tellingly NOT told that Rivaini is a dead and smoking ruin, which stands a pretty compelling evidence that becoming possessed of a spirit does not automatically lead to death and destruction.

No... just most of the time. ie every other case of possession we've actually seen except for Wynne.

It's hardly fair to compare demonic possession with spirit possession.  I thought that was clear in my post, but apparently I should have taken better care to express that.

[Vit246]

Filament wrote...

I would think Anders is a primary example of why seeking a "benevolent" spirit is the path to ruin. Merrill comments on this herself, though all the years with Anders not completely losing control might have given her second thoughts.

Seems to me that Wynne got lucky her "faith" spirit did not contort into zealotry or what-have-you.

The problem was not the benevolent spirit. The problem was Anders and his emotional baggage from years of bad experience from the Circle system. THAT twisted the spirit, not the other way around. Wynne was not lucky. She just didn't really have the emotional baggage to twist her Faith spirit. Benevolent Spirits don't twist the possessed. The possessed do that.

[Nightdragon8]

the way i think about it is this... the fade is pretty much a pool of spirrts good or bad, depending on the environment the veil can be thick or thin. Like the case with the dwarves they where pretty much in-cased in lyrium which can block the veil thus they lost there atunemint to the fade. while everyone else was exposed to it.

 IMO i would think of it as a super bright light that can go though anything. thus the "golden city" may as well be the light-bulb powering the fade.

now if a mage "tears the veil" it allows demons and other spirts though it with relative ease. and considering 'demons' seem to the ones that want to get to the human world the most they are the ones who would forcefully move into a weaken will of a mage.  Remember the mage tower in DA:O they where toruchering mages to submit to a demon.

So the real issue is that the willingness - the thickness of the veil in the area + the power of the demon = enter a person.

now we can break down the willingness into sub categories and figures with the following, will - fear of death = willingness.

With kirkwall it was pretty much the worse case senario.... the veil was prosperously thined and the fear of a unjust death sentence. Anders was the who blew up the chantry yet the knight commander said "because it was magic we have to kill ALL mages..."

Plus the fact the knight commander was possesed by an lyrium idol (another hint that even a Templar can be possessed and they are sposed to be the most anti-magic thing around)

so really it doesn't help.... also the fact that the Qun, kills anyone who hears a mage speak because of the chance that it could have transmitted a demon into another NON-mage is high in there opionion. my guess is that all Qun mages use bloodmagic i bet

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 11 avril 2013 - 02:06 .

[Mr.Sink123]

Silfren wrote...

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

I never really understood why people can't figure out why having a room, a bed, good food, etc. don't make up for lack of freedom.

Have YOU ever been in a situation where you had a room, a bed, good food, but couldn't actually leave your house without permission and without being under armed guard, and found that getting that permission was hard to come by, being utterly reliant on the mood of your guard?  Oh, and don't forget the utter lack of privacy.  You may have a personal room, but you are under constant guard to the extent that you don't have anything approaching true privacy at all. 

Try that for a while. Seriously, try living so that you literally cannot leave your house, EVER, without securing permission, and even then NEVER without an armed escort.  Get back with me on how much you think those "perks" of a private room and food make up for it.

In the real world, 99% of people are not truly free in a literal sense, being tied at the very least to jobs, if nothing else, and certainly most privileges in life are directly tied to how much money a person can afford to use for things other than bare necessities.  But that does NOT mean that most of us who live in Westernized countries wouldn't seriously chafe at the idea of being locked in a building, never allowed to leave its premises and being under literally constant scrutiny.

And don't come back with "but there's REASONS FOR THAT" because the reasons are irrelevant to the fact that the average person is NOT going to appreciate having their freedom of movement and privacy taken away, the reasons for that loss of freedom be damned.

I've been in the army, so i know exactly how it is.
And i hated it, but its still better then the life most of Thedas "Free" people have.
They are starving to death, but they have the freedom to do what? 
They are sold into slavery, but at least they are free, wait....

You just fail to see the situation in Thedas, its not our modern world society, you cant compare the situation of the mages to our very own, you have to compare it to the situation of the people of Thedas.

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Being opressed, having their freedom taken and having their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them isn't necessarily "forgiven" by giving them a prison-palace.
Indeed, isn't the Chantry great? Racism, prejudice, opression all in the name of a deity and someone who fought slavery... hypocrites.

I suspect there are millions of people in our world who would kill their mothers to be admitted into a prison palace where you're fed, clothed, educated.
Yes, the Chantry is great. Extablishing a stable society ruled by law, sheltering the poor, evacuating villages after its Bann fled the Darkspawn, containing mages in an humane manner, forcing Andrastean nations to take in elven refugees rather than just wipe them out.
Hey, I can even link you to a post from David Gaider himself who says that the Chantry is mostly benefitial in nature and that it sees the Circle system as an unfortunate necessity.
That's Word of God right there.

Sure, people who are ridiculously poor. Most mages come from, shall we call it "middle class" of Thedas and some are from noble families. They can't have a family, they can't rule, they're opressed and worst they have, like I said before, their lives and mind on the hands of zealots who hate them! They are slaves. No different from Tevinter slaves. The difference is Tevinter doesn't judge their slaves based on their race or if they are magically gifted.
Tevinter is what? Ruled by anarchy? Sheltering the Andrastian poor and evacuating Andrastian villages. Humane? They are treated, no, they are slaves for Dumat's sake! After conquering their promised land that their prophet gave to them, taking their freedom to worship their gods and mantaining their culture and offering them a place which not even the dirtiest of humans would live.
And you think the same but I don't. That's called a point of view.
That's the word of a human that if he wants to keep their franchise alive he needs to consider the opinions of others not just himself.

MisterJB wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
The families have a say in the "ruling".

Dragon Age 2. The clan says "Let's move". The Keeper says "No".
Result,
the clan doesn't move and important people like the chief crafter see
no alternative but abandon the clan. That's an authoritarian system.

They could very well leave her there by herself, it's the respect they have for her that didn't make them do that.
What? Here's an example of authoritarianism:

Dalish Family: We're leaving.
Keeper: No, you're not. Hunters apprehend them.

They could have left if they wished.

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

I never really understood why people can't figure out why having a room, a bed, good food, etc. don't make up for lack of freedom.

Have YOU ever been in a situation where you had a room, a bed, good food, but couldn't actually leave your house without permission and without being under armed guard, and found that getting that permission was hard to come by, being utterly reliant on the mood of your guard?  Oh, and don't forget the utter lack of privacy.  You may have a personal room, but you are under constant guard to the extent that you don't have anything approaching true privacy at all. 

Try that for a while. Seriously, try living so that you literally cannot leave your house, EVER, without securing permission, and even then NEVER without an armed escort.  Get back with me on how much you think those "perks" of a private room and food make up for it.

In the real world, 99% of people are not truly free in a literal sense, being tied at the very least to jobs, if nothing else, and certainly most privileges in life are directly tied to how much money a person can afford to use for things other than bare necessities.  But that does NOT mean that most of us who live in Westernized countries wouldn't seriously chafe at the idea of being locked in a building, never allowed to leave its premises and being under literally constant scrutiny.

And don't come back with "but there's REASONS FOR THAT" because the reasons are irrelevant to the fact that the average person is NOT going to appreciate having their freedom of movement and privacy taken away, the reasons for that loss of freedom be damned.

Yes... But people seem to discard that argument for some reason. I would literally fight to the death to get out of that situation. Privacy is a basic need, at least for me.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 11 avril 2013 - 02:14 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Silfren wrote...

Filament wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ETA:  And she is but one example.  We are told that Rivaini seers willingly allow themselves to be possessed.  We are also very tellingly NOT told that Rivaini is a dead and smoking ruin, which stands a pretty compelling evidence that becoming possessed of a spirit does not automatically lead to death and destruction.

No... just most of the time. ie every other case of possession we've actually seen except for Wynne.

It's hardly fair to compare demonic possession with spirit possession.  I thought that was clear in my post, but apparently I should have taken better care to express that.

Spirits (demons included) are different from each other, they feed on different parts of the psyche. Even Desire demons have different "interests", some focus on lust while others focus on power. We've already seen examples of this.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...

As someone who never plays human nobles and empathizes most with the (city) elves, I find it amazing that you missed all their insights about the corruption and unequal distribution of power in Andrastian society (the attitude that "only some people are important," to paraphrase Sten), and focus only on their view of mages.

It may be because the qunari are hypocrates, who believe in a fundamentally unequal society with an unequal distribution of power justified on, basically, a caste system. You aren't even worth the notice of the Arishok if you don't fully accept and submit to your role and the power dynamic of the Qun. 

And that's not even touching on what implications there may be between (i) Vidithari and those born to the Qun; and (ii) the qunari proper and human and elven qunari. 

The Arishok's disgust with the corruption in Kirkwall, the denied justice and opportunities, the utter incompetence of those in power since it's given to and/or protected by those born into their positions rather than those who earn it? Eh.

The Arishok is a hypocrate, who uses the "demands of the Qun" as a justification to raise Kirkwall in part for his failure to find the Tome of Koslun. He exploits the elves as much as the humans do, only he uses them as a political weapon to provoke a military confrontation with the city guard. 

You'll notice that the Arishok goes, oh, wait, tome of Koslun, LOLZ BAI! the second that it comes up in front of him. He demands Isabella, but given his previous behaviour, it's likely as much injured pride as justice. 

Which is what makes the Arishok such a brilliant character: his view (at first) sounds noble, and he seems to be in a quite terrible situation, isolated in a racism and corrupt city, until you see that beneath his veneer his not so different - in terms of his flaws - than anyone else in Kirkwall. 

[SinerAthin]

Most of the enemy Mages we meet are idiots though...

Then again, most of our enemies are.

[Navasha]

Well, any society that pre-judges a person solely based on the "potential" to do harm and enslaves, prosecutes, imprisons, or kills them for that potential without any actual event that caused harm to another is not a civilized society.

Even the circles themselves actually go too far by forcing people to be imprisoned based solely on their nature.

The Qunari despise free thought, so its understandable why they would have such a system. Advocating such a system for other sentient species that actually value individuality is akin to being accepting of slavery.

So NO... its not a good idea.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Meh whatever I could care less for the Mage plight at this point

[andy6915]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Filament wrote...

I would think Anders is a primary example of why seeking a "benevolent" spirit is the path to ruin. Merrill comments on this herself, though all the years with Anders not completely losing control might have given her second thoughts.

Seems to me that Wynne got lucky her "faith" spirit did not contort into zealotry or what-have-you.

Well it showed in Asunder that even Wynnes Spirit can... enchance... her abilities.

Explain.

[Renmiri1]

Faerunner wrote...

As someone who never plays human nobles and empathizes most with the (city) elves, I find it amazing that you missed all their insights about the corruption and unequal distribution of power in Andrastian society (the attitude that "only some people are important," to paraphrase Sten), and focus only on their view of mages.

The Arishok's disgust with the corruption in Kirkwall, the denied justice and opportunities, the utter incompetence of those in power since it's given to and/or protected by those born into their positions rather than those who earn it? Eh. (Mostly royals and nobles, though this can include human knights, soldiers, guards and clerics who still uphold the status quo by keeping those uppity elves and peasants in their place.) However, their view that mages are walking husks waiting to be filled by demons and so should be made prisoners in their own bodies? Oh, you're all over that.

Truly, you have a rounded view of the world of Thedas.

Agreed 100%

Mages are the only efficient healers and the only efficient way to communicate (In Asunder special mage stones work like cellphones).

Even the Qunary realized they need mages. Prior to getting their butt kicked by the Exalted March - with human mages in their frontlines - the Qunari killed their own mages. Sarebas were "invented" to be able to have war with the other Thedas humanoids. Qunari would be dead without them.

Qun indocrination might be powerful enough to get some mages to submit to being mutilated and kept on a leash. There is no equivalent fanatism for Andraste's followers. (Thouugh mages do submit to a lot of BS in Circles, they draw the line at leashes and mouths sewn shut)

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 avril 2013 - 10:21 .

[Silfren]

andy69156915 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Filament wrote...

I would think Anders is a primary example of why seeking a "benevolent" spirit is the path to ruin. Merrill comments on this herself, though all the years with Anders not completely losing control might have given her second thoughts.

Seems to me that Wynne got lucky her "faith" spirit did not contort into zealotry or what-have-you.

Well it showed in Asunder that even Wynnes Spirit can... enchance... her abilities.

Explain.

Spoilers below.


There was a scene in the book where Wynne was shown to have possession of a very powerful and dangerous and apparently inherently evil staff.  From memory I don't recall too much detail, except that she had hidden this staff somewhere, presumably in case she had a serious need for it, and when she found it, it had a nasty, immediate effect on her mental state.  I seem to recall it's either stated or heavily implied as something she came into possession of while in Tevinter.  It's not clear whether the staff directly affected her, or the spirit within her.  It might have enhanced her abilities, I can't recall.

There was another scene where Wynne gets a powerup boost when she lets the spirit take the wheel, so to speak, but this happened while they were in the Fade.

[Sutamina]

There was a scene in the book where Wynne was shown to have possession of a very powerful and dangerous and apparently inherently evil staff.

not evil but yes scary

From memory I don't recall too much detail, except that she had hidden this staff somewhere,

sewers

presumably in case she had a serious need for it, and when she found it, it had a nasty, immediate effect on her mental state.

no

  I seem to recall it's either stated or heavily implied as something she came into possession of while in Tevinter. 

hero of feralden gave it to her.

It's not clear whether the staff directly affected her, or the spirit within her.  It might have enhanced her abilities, I can't recall.

it did  not.

There was another scene where Wynne gets a powerup boost when she lets the spirit take the wheel, so to speak, but this happened while they were in the Fade.

yes its true

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Silfren wrote...

There was a scene in the book where Wynne was shown to have possession of a very powerful and dangerous and apparently inherently evil staff.  From memory I don't recall too much detail, except that she had hidden this staff somewhere, presumably in case she had a serious need for it, and when she found it, it had a nasty, immediate effect on her mental state.  I seem to recall it's either stated or heavily implied as something she came into possession of while in Tevinter.  It's not clear whether the staff directly affected her, or the spirit within her.  It might have enhanced her abilities, I can't recall.

I read about this on the wiki. Apparently it's said to be a gift from the Warden, and the description matches a staff found during the Return to Ostagar DLC.

[BlueMagitek]

Actually their horns seemed a bit blunted. :/