199 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Silfren wrote...

There was a scene in the book where Wynne was shown to have possession of a very powerful and dangerous and apparently inherently evil staff.  From memory I don't recall too much detail, except that she had hidden this staff somewhere, presumably in case she had a serious need for it, and when she found it, it had a nasty, immediate effect on her mental state.  I seem to recall it's either stated or heavily implied as something she came into possession of while in Tevinter.  It's not clear whether the staff directly affected her, or the spirit within her.  It might have enhanced her abilities, I can't recall.

I read about this on the wiki. Apparently it's said to be a gift from the Warden, and the description matches a staff found during the Return to Ostagar DLC.

Yup, think that's the one.

As for Wynne's spirit special powers... Evangelinne found out about them first hand ! 

[Goneaviking]

Silfren wrote...

I never really understood why people can't figure out why having a room, a bed, good food, etc. don't make up for lack of freedom.

Of course having a room, a bed, good food, etc can't make up for a lack of freedom. That's because freedom is only a primary concern for people who have a room, a bed, good food, etc.

Everyone else is too busy trying to survive to take umbridge to the injustice that they can't just pack their bags and set off to see the world.

People talk of the injustice of the Mages plight. I agree, but it's nothing compared to the abuse that elves have to endure in their alienages or the subsistence living of the dalish.

Where are the endless threads about their plight? I guess the struggle for equal employment opportunities and representation by the law isn't so romantic.

[Silfren]

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Mr.Sink123 wrote...

I never really understood why so many mages where mad about the circles.
I mean they have a room, a bed, good food, ressources for their research and much much more.
They only lack freedom, but i dont really think anyone is free in Thedas.

I never really understood why people can't figure out why having a room, a bed, good food, etc. don't make up for lack of freedom.

Have YOU ever been in a situation where you had a room, a bed, good food, but couldn't actually leave your house without permission and without being under armed guard, and found that getting that permission was hard to come by, being utterly reliant on the mood of your guard?  Oh, and don't forget the utter lack of privacy.  You may have a personal room, but you are under constant guard to the extent that you don't have anything approaching true privacy at all. 

Try that for a while. Seriously, try living so that you literally cannot leave your house, EVER, without securing permission, and even then NEVER without an armed escort.  Get back with me on how much you think those "perks" of a private room and food make up for it.

In the real world, 99% of people are not truly free in a literal sense, being tied at the very least to jobs, if nothing else, and certainly most privileges in life are directly tied to how much money a person can afford to use for things other than bare necessities.  But that does NOT mean that most of us who live in Westernized countries wouldn't seriously chafe at the idea of being locked in a building, never allowed to leave its premises and being under literally constant scrutiny.

And don't come back with "but there's REASONS FOR THAT" because the reasons are irrelevant to the fact that the average person is NOT going to appreciate having their freedom of movement and privacy taken away, the reasons for that loss of freedom be damned.

I've been in the army, so i know exactly how it is.
And i hated it, but its still better then the life most of Thedas "Free" people have.
They are starving to death, but they have the freedom to do what? 
They are sold into slavery, but at least they are free, wait....

You just fail to see the situation in Thedas, its not our modern world society, you cant compare the situation of the mages to our very own, you have to compare it to the situation of the people of Thedas.

.....Most people of Thedas are starving and being sold into slavery?

Slavery's a problem, and I'm sure that some people have trouble getting enough food.  But nowhere have I seen ANY indication that slavery is such a looming reality that the common folk live in perpetual fear of it.  Nor have I seen that ALL the common folk of Thedas face chronic starvation.

[Maria Caliban]

Osena109 wrote...

Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages  would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?

I'm sure this would never backfire spectacularly.

[Silfren]

Sutamina wrote...

There was a scene in the book where Wynne was shown to have possession of a very powerful and dangerous and apparently inherently evil staff.

not evil but yes scary

From memory I don't recall too much detail, except that she had hidden this staff somewhere,

sewers

presumably in case she had a serious need for it, and when she found it, it had a nasty, immediate effect on her mental state.

no

Well, yes, it did, and I think the text on that makes it rather clear.  That staff definitely did something to Wynne's mind, and Evangeline instinctively pegged the staff as wrong somehow when she first encountered it.  But I do remember that Wynne freaked right the hell out when it was destroyed, only to calm down rather abruptly afterward.  Consider also that Wynne, the biggest pro-templar mage we know, who is consistently quick to defend the Chantry's position and the need for templars, who is also known to reject anything she perceives as morally wrong, went out of her way to hide the staff lest the Templars learn she had it.  I think that also indicates no small degree of influence over her mind.

Beyond that thanks for reminding me of the details on the rest, but was it necessary to quote me bit by bit like this when you could've kept the whole thing a lot simpler by leaving my paragraph intact and responding to it all in one go?  There wasn't any need to take my fairly short paragraph and stretch it out into such a long post.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 avril 2013 - 05:36 .

[Fredward]

Goneaviking wrote...
Of course having a room, a bed, good food, etc can't make up for a lack of freedom. That's because freedom is only a primary concern for people who have a room, a bed, good food, etc.

Everyone else is too busy trying to survive to take umbridge to the injustice that they can't just pack their bags and set off to see the world.

People talk of the injustice of the Mages plight. I agree, but it's nothing compared to the abuse that elves have to endure in their alienages or the subsistence living of the dalish.

Where are the endless threads about their plight? I guess the struggle for equal employment opportunities and representation by the law isn't so romantic.

You do realize that you can't justify or dampen one injustice with another one, yes? You are basically going "Well, yes the school shootings in America are bad BUT the genocides in Africa are SO MUCH WORSE lets just ignore the shootings and focus on that shall we?"

It's definitely one of the more nonsensical arguments I've seen from non-mage supporters. This is ignoring the fact that the organization that is responsible for suppresing the mages is also responsible for the situation the elves find themselves in but w/e.

[Palidane]

"Mages have it great and shouldn't complain!" is a stupid argument, and I'm pro-circle. Let's cop to it, the Templars are depriving mages of their freedom and rights for the good of everybody else. You can debate whether that is worth it, or how things should be, or whatever, but let's not pretend the Templars are doing the mages a favor.

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

"Mages have it great and shouldn't complain!" is a stupid argument, and I'm pro-circle. Let's cop to it, the Templars are depriving mages of their freedom and rights for the good of everybody else. You can debate whether that is worth it, or how things should be, or whatever, but let's not pretend the Templars are doing the mages a favor.

At least you're honest about it.  Thank you.

[Sutamina]

Palidane wrote...
"Mages have it great and shouldn't complain!" is a stupid argument,

Good thing too, I do not know why you feel it necessary to say that thou.

and I'm pro-circle.

AH good for you.

Let's cop to it,

Lets not.

the Templars are depriving mages of their freedom and rights for the good of everybody else.

Depending on your point of view and who you are that might be true.

You can debate whether that is worth it, or how things should be, or whatever,

I pretty sure a great many have debated that.

but let's not pretend the Templars are doing the mages a favor.

Depends on which templars and which mages in which case your comment could be a falacy

Modifié par Sutamina, 12 avril 2013 - 05:54 .

[Silfren]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Of course having a room, a bed, good food, etc can't make up for a lack of freedom. That's because freedom is only a primary concern for people who have a room, a bed, good food, etc.

Everyone else is too busy trying to survive to take umbridge to the injustice that they can't just pack their bags and set off to see the world.

People talk of the injustice of the Mages plight. I agree, but it's nothing compared to the abuse that elves have to endure in their alienages or the subsistence living of the dalish.

Where are the endless threads about their plight? I guess the struggle for equal employment opportunities and representation by the law isn't so romantic.

You do realize that you can't justify or dampen one injustice with another one, yes? You are basically going "Well, yes the school shootings in America are bad BUT the genocides in Africa are SO MUCH WORSE lets just ignore the shootings and focus on that shall we?"

It's definitely one of the more nonsensical arguments I've seen from non-mage supporters. This is ignoring the fact that the organization that is responsible for suppresing the mages is also responsible for the situation the elves find themselves in but w/e.

Eh, I see the same kind of argument applied to RL situations all the time.  When someone's complaining about something, the easiest/quickest way to shut them down is to totally dismiss their problems by pointing to someone else's, despite the fact that person Y's suffering does not invalidate, and certainly it doesn't mitigate--the suffering of Person X.  It's also a damned effective political tactic for ignoring one problem by drawing attention to another. 

The bottom line is that it's largely an emotional argument and, I'm not gonna pull any punches, the people making it just don't stop to think it through and realize how bloody stupid it is or how it makes them look.

[Fredward]

Silfren wrote...

Eh, I see the same kind of argument applied to RL situations all the time.  When someone's complaining about something, the easiest/quickest way to shut them down is to totally dismiss their problems by pointing to someone else's, despite the fact that person Y's suffering does not invalidate, and certainly it doesn't mitigate--the suffering of Person X.  It's also a damned effective political tactic for ignoring one problem by drawing attention to another. 

The bottom line is that it's largely an emotional argument and, I'm not gonna pull any punches, the people making it just don't stop to think it through and realize how bloody stupid it is or how it makes them look.

IKR? What really gets me if how often it works. Almost every time I see someone use this in a argument the other person goes "I- but I just- well I didn't- it's just that..." or they say something along the lines of "We're not talking about them now, they're not important" and then there's this collective intake of breath from any spectators and your argument is totally undermined. 'Specially if you're arguing something about morality. It really is a lovely fallacious little trap.

Anyway I can still get "circle-supporters" because mages do have the potential to turn into monsters and I'd even support a (heavily modified and restricted) Circle system. Cuz as I see it the templars aren't even the problem here, it's the Chantry. The Chantry has most, if not all, of their templars strung out on lyrium. Have ya'll ever seen a addict justify their morally deviant behavior as long as it facilitates their next hit? I don't doubt that many templars are templars because they really do believe their work is just (Lambert's faction for instance) but that doesn't justify the Chantry literally enslaving their private army with a drug that ultimately has a massively detrimental effect on the individual. It's one of the reasons I just don't get people who support the Chantry because they really think that its some benevolent organization. As I see it the templars are an obstacle, if they choose to be. The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble.

[Sutamina]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Anyway I can still get "circle-supporters" because mages do have the potential to turn into monsters and I'd even support a (heavily modified and restricted) Circle system.

okdoky

Cuz as I see it the templars aren't even the problem here, it's the Chantry. The Chantry has most, if not all, of their templars strung out on lyrium.

Templars have the abilities to dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting,
and they develop a considerable immunity to magic, primarily through
ingesting lyrium.

Have ya'll ever seen a addict justify their morally deviant behavior as long as it facilitates their next hit?

yes

I don't doubt that many templars are templars because they really do believe their work is just (Lambert's faction for instance) but that doesn't justify the Chantry literally enslaving their private army with a drug that ultimately has a massively detrimental effect on the individual.

I did not know that the templars were ever slaves or that there was any justification

It's one of the reasons I just don't get people who support the Chantry because they really think that its some benevolent organization.

okdoky

As I see it the templars are an obstacle, if they choose to be.

um...Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but
they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these
magic users for very good reasons. It is the templars' place to watch
their charges for signs of weakness or corruption and, should they find
it, to act without hesitation for the good of all. The considerable power the Order holds over mages occasionally leads to
charges of tyranny and abuse, since the balance between protection and
oppression of the mages is precarious. Nevertheless, according to the
Chantry, this is the price that must be paid for the security the
templars offer.

The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble.

ok it seems you have an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

[Noctis Augustus]

Sutamina wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Anyway I can still get "circle-supporters" because mages do have the potential to turn into monsters and I'd even support a (heavily modified and restricted) Circle system.

okdoky

Cuz as I see it the templars aren't even the problem here, it's the Chantry. The Chantry has most, if not all, of their templars strung out on lyrium.

Templars have the abilities to dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting,
and they develop a considerable immunity to magic, primarily through
ingesting lyrium.

Have ya'll ever seen a addict justify their morally deviant behavior as long as it facilitates their next hit?

yes

I don't doubt that many templars are templars because they really do believe their work is just (Lambert's faction for instance) but that doesn't justify the Chantry literally enslaving their private army with a drug that ultimately has a massively detrimental effect on the individual.

I did not know that the templars were ever slaves or that there was any justification

It's one of the reasons I just don't get people who support the Chantry because they really think that its some benevolent organization.

okdoky

As I see it the templars are an obstacle, if they choose to be.

um...Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but
they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these
magic users for very good reasons. It is the templars' place to watch
their charges for signs of weakness or corruption and, should they find
it, to act without hesitation for the good of all. The considerable power the Order holds over mages occasionally leads to
charges of tyranny and abuse, since the balance between protection and
oppression of the mages is precarious. Nevertheless, according to the
Chantry, this is the price that must be paid for the security the
templars offer.

The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble.

ok it seems you have an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

Please, take your Chantry propaganda elsewhere. Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression, if what you say is true and has any weight Tevinter would be run down by abominations and demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.

That can be said right back at you.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 12 avril 2013 - 02:43 .

[Sutamina]

ibbikiookami wrote...
Please, take your Chantry propaganda elsewhere.

Nah here is a good spot. And sadly no propaganda was given.

Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression,

it does ? for the elfs? for the people who are not mages ? Fenris, Sten, Kirkwall lore

if what you say is true and has any weight Tevinter would be run down by abominations and demons by now.Same can be said about the Dalish elves.

oh sweeping generalization to try and be right if only that works.

That can be said right back at you.

Um... ok... what...

[KainD]

Qunari don't have a point in anything they do, they are just animals, and dangerous ones at that, most of them should probably be either caged or killed, as they don't even take part in any natural food chains as other animals do, so annihilating them won't cause any significant impact on nature.
^ Talking about followers of the Qun there, not the race.

As for this Tevinter/Mage/Templar conflict here again - all people that support the circle system that denies mages their freedom are no different from Tevinter, and they do not have the right to call Tevinter evil/wrong system, because they advocate exactly the same.

Sutamina wrote...
Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression,

it does ? for the elfs? for the people who are not mages ? Fenris, Sten, Kirkwall lore

Elves have the same rights as humans in Tevinter. People who are not mages are not automatically slaves in Tevinter.

[The Elder King]

KainD wrote...


As for this Tevinter/Mage/Templar conflict here again - all people that support the circle system that denies mages their freedom are no different from Tevinter, and they do not have the right to call Tevinter evil/wrong system, because they advocate exactly the same.

I think that all societies in current Thedas are full of injustice, for different reasons (and before someone start to talk about the need to control mages, Andrastian societies would be wrong and unjust even without the Circle system, as Tevinter would be if there were a double nobility composed by mages and non-mages) and in a need of a vast reform.
I understand if someone prefers Tevinter, the Chantry-Andrastian nations, or the Qun, based on their opinions and views, but in a way or another, those societies aren't objectively good.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 avril 2013 - 05:06 .

[MisterJB]

KainD wrote...
As for this Tevinter/Mage/Templar conflict here again - all people that support the circle system that denies mages
their freedom are no different from Tevinter, and they do not have the right to call Tevinter evil/wrong system, because they advocate exactly the same.

No. We advocate that the people capable of killing others with their minds to have restrictions placed upon them to reflect the increased danger they pose. Tevinters advocate that those who can't throw fireballs should shut up and do what they're told before they get a fireball to the face.
It's the difference between resonable precautions and survival of the fittest. I won't claim it's a morally flawless system but it's vastly different from Tevinter.

KainD wrote...
Elves have the same rights as humans in Tevinter. People who are not mages are not automatically slaves in Tevinter.

Elves also have the sam rigths as humans in Andrastean lands which doesn't mean it aways translates into equality because the cultural outlook is very much pro-human. Given the fact that Tevinter is the nation that originally crushed Arlathan; literally; I can only imagine that while a powerful elven mage might become a magister, that the pro-human outlook remains the same with even human slaves living better lives than elven slave. I mean, the elven shopkeeper in Denerim is a former tevinter slave and h thinks the alienage is "everything worth fighting for". Things must truly be awful in Tevinter.

While non-mages are not automatically slaves, everything points to being near impossible for them to improve their quality of life since mages control the entirety of the infrastructure.
It even says so in a leaked page from "World of Thedas." If you don't believe me, squint your eyes a bit and read for yourself.

Modifié par MisterJB, 12 avril 2013 - 05:31 .

[Palidane]

hhh89 wrote...

KainD wrote...


As for this Tevinter/Mage/Templar conflict here again - all people that support the circle system that denies mages their freedom are no different from Tevinter, and they do not have the right to call Tevinter evil/wrong system, because they advocate exactly the same.

I think that all societies in current Thedas are full of injustice, for different reasons (and before someone start to talk about the need to control mages, Andrastian societies would be wrong and unjust even without the Circle system, as Tevinter would be if there were a double nobility composed by mages and non-mages) and in a need of a vast reform.
I understand if someone prefers Tevinter, the Chantry-Andrastian nations, or the Qun, based on their opinions and views, but in a way or another, those societies aren't objectively good.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean they are all equal. Tevinter is the worst place to live on the entire continent, the Qunari are either the best or the second worst depending how much you value freedom. Sure, the peasants in Andrastian nations aren't necessarily living the good life, but they're not going to be sacrificed on an altar to make fireworks for a magisters party.

[The Elder King]

Palidane wrote...





Agreed, but that doesn't mean they are all equal. Tevinter is the worst place to live on the entire continent, the Qunari are either the best or the second worst depending how much you value freedom. Sure, the peasants in Andrastian nations aren't necessarily living the good life, but they're not going to be sacrificed on an altar to make fireworks for a magisters party.

Never said they're equal; my point is that they all (more or less) suck.
And about the peasants in Andrastian place, in Orlais nobility has almost the same power as magisters have on common folks: sure, they're not sacrificed with moronic magic rituals, but common folks could be raped as they wish by the chevaliers, and if a friend of yours killed the said chevalier for saving you, you'll be hanged up.
I'll continue later, since I have to go now.

Modifié par hhh89, 12 avril 2013 - 06:07 .

[KainD]

MisterJB wrote...

No. We advocate that the people capable of killing others with their minds to have restrictions placed upon them to reflect the increased danger they pose. Tevinters advocate that those who can't throw fireballs should shut up and do what they're told before they get a fireball to the face.
It's the difference between resonable precautions and survival of the fittest. I won't claim it's a morally flawless system but it's vastly different from Tevinter.

I see no difference what so ever. Both equally selfish and unreasonalbe. 

In other words - both are about survival of the fitest that dictate their rules to others. 

Modifié par KainD, 12 avril 2013 - 06:53 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Sutamina wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
Please, take your Chantry propaganda elsewhere.

Nah here is a good spot. And sadly no propaganda was given.

... *facepalm*

Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression,

it does ? for the elfs? for the people who are not mages ? Fenris, Sten, Kirkwall lore

The elves have the same rights as humans unlike andrastian societies, they can even become magisters if powerful and cunning enough. What about the people who are mages in andrastian societies? Tevinter has slaves and the andrastian societies have slave-mages.

if what you say is true and has any weight Tevinter would be run down by abominations and demons by now.Same can be said about the Dalish elves.

oh sweeping generalization to try and be right if only that works.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say.

That can be said right back at you.

Um... ok... what...

Sutamina wrote...

The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble.

ok it seems you have an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

That can be said right back at you.

[KainD]

Palidane wrote...

Agreed, but that doesn't mean they are all equal. Tevinter is the worst place to live on the entire continent, the Qunari are either the best or the second worst depending how much you value freedom. Sure, the peasants in Andrastian nations aren't necessarily living the good life, but they're not going to be sacrificed on an altar to make fireworks for a magisters party.

How about I DO value it and Qunari is worst than Tevinter? 

[Noctis Augustus]

MisterJB wrote...

While non-mages are not automatically slaves, everything points to being near impossible for them to improve their quality of life since mages control the entirety of the infrastructure.
It even says so in a leaked page from "World of Thedas." If you don't believe me, squint your eyes a bit and read for yourself.

*looks at your signature* ... Hypocrite.

[Fredward]

Sutamina wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Anyway I can still get "circle-supporters" because mages do have the potential to turn into monsters and I'd even support a (heavily modified and restricted) Circle system.

okdoky

Cuz as I see it the templars aren't even the problem here, it's the Chantry. The Chantry has most, if not all, of their templars strung out on lyrium.

Templars have the abilities to dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting,
and they develop a considerable immunity to magic, primarily through
ingesting lyrium.

Have ya'll ever seen a addict justify their morally deviant behavior as long as it facilitates their next hit?

yes

I don't doubt that many templars are templars because they really do believe their work is just (Lambert's faction for instance) but that doesn't justify the Chantry literally enslaving their private army with a drug that ultimately has a massively detrimental effect on the individual.

I did not know that the templars were ever slaves or that there was any justification

It's one of the reasons I just don't get people who support the Chantry because they really think that its some benevolent organization.

okdoky

As I see it the templars are an obstacle, if they choose to be.

um...Templars are sworn to protect the world from the dangers of magic, but
they also protect mages from the outside world, a world that fears these
magic users for very good reasons. It is the templars' place to watch
their charges for signs of weakness or corruption and, should they find
it, to act without hesitation for the good of all. The considerable power the Order holds over mages occasionally leads to
charges of tyranny and abuse, since the balance between protection and
oppression of the mages is precarious. Nevertheless, according to the
Chantry, this is the price that must be paid for the security the
templars offer.

The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble.

ok it seems you have an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

I really have no idea what you're saying but... okdoky.

[Sutamina]

ibbikiookami wrote...
... *facepalm*

Thats cream pie you put your face into.
Also you provide no evidence that im doing any propaganda for the chantry,
What I am doing is saying Foopydoopydoo shows no indication of understand what the chantry does and evidence to back it up. But I am sure it FEELS TRUE for Foopydoopydoo.
I have seen no evidence that the chantry is enslaving templars. Nobody in books games or lore indicate that the templars indicate that they consider themselves to be slaves.

The elves have the same rights as humans unlike andrastian societies,

No they do not

they can even become magisters if powerful and cunning enough.

yes

What about the people who are mages in andrastian societies?

Mages are suppose to be treated as individuals with the potential of causing considerable harm.

Tevinter has slaves

yes

and the andrastian societies have slave-mages.

Sweeping generalization is bad.
under good conditions mages are not slaves in andrastian societies
thou mages who are under the conditions of kirkwall may certianly see themselves as such and understandably so.

Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression,

for the mages sure everyone else however...

ibbikiookami wrote... Tevinter would be run down by abominations and
demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.

assumption unsupported by evidence

Foopydoopydoo wrote... "The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble. "

What is the foundation for this statement? To me in reading what the chantry does in books, lore and games I can only conclude that Foopydoopydoo has an erroneous understanding of the chantry.