199 réponses à ce sujet

[Osena109]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages  would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?

I'm sure this would never backfire spectacularly.

No i Don't think it will the way this mage war is brewing it looks like the seekers will be force to restore order so the mage's will have to be put down well that is the way i see it any how

Modifié par Osena109, 12 avril 2013 - 09:29 .

[Noctis Augustus]

[quote]Sutamina wrote...

[quote]ibbikiookami wrote...
... *facepalm*
[/quote]
Also you provide no evidence that im doing any propaganda for the chantry,
What I am doing is saying Foopydoopydoo shows no indication of understand what the chantry does and evidence to back it up. But I am sure it FEELS TRUE for Foopydoopydoo.
I have seen no evidence that the chantry is enslaving templars. Nobody in books games or lore indicate that the templars indicate that they consider themselves to be slaves.
[/quote]

You're pratically just repeating what the templars say.
Ah yes there is no proof for that, it's just a conclusion people come to after what Alistair says in DAO. He says that lyrium is not needed to learn the templar abilities and that the Chantry offers them lyrium, to which they become addicted, to control them... which eventually fails as they rebelled anyway after DAII.

[quote]
[quote]The elves have the same rights as humans unlike andrastian societies, [/quote]
No they do not

[quote]they can even become magisters if powerful and cunning enough.[/quote]
yes

[/quote]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Besides we've already seen examples in DAII that can confirm what I said.

[quote]
[quote]What about the people who are mages in andrastian societies?[/quote]
Mages are suppose to be treated as individuals with the potential of causing considerable harm.

[/quote]

Non-mages have the potential of causing considerable harm as well. Besides would you like to be locked up because you have the potential of causing harm? Societies should not work like that.

[quote]
[quote]and the andrastian societies have slave-mages.[/quote]
Sweeping generalization is bad.
under good conditions mages are not slaves in andrastian societies
thou mages who are under the conditions of kirkwall may certianly see themselves as such and understandably so.
[/quote]

Explain yourself.

[quote]
[quote]Tevinter does fine without the templar's opression,[/quote]
for the mages sure everyone else however...

[/quote]

Stop breaking my sentences.

[quote]
[quote]ibbikiookami wrote... Tevinter would be run down by abominations and
demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.[/quote]
assumption unsupported by evidence [/quote]
[/quote]

... Are you serious?

[quote]
[quote]Foopydoopydoo wrote... "The enemy here is the Chantry, and the only way this war ends satisfactorily IMO is if it's reduced to flaming rubble. "[/quote]
What is the foundation for this statement? To me in reading what the chantry does in books, lore and games I can only conclude that Foopydoopydoo has an erroneous understanding of the chantry.


[/quote]

To me in reading what the Chantry does in lore and in games I can only conclude that you have an erroneous understanding of the Chantry.

[Silfren]

Sutamina wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
Anyway I can still get "circle-supporters" because mages do have the potential to turn into monsters and I'd even support a (heavily modified and restricted) Circle system.

okdoky

Cuz as I see it the templars aren't even the problem here, it's the Chantry. The Chantry has most, if not all, of their templars strung out on lyrium.

Templars have the abilities to dispel magic and inhibit spellcasting,
and they develop a considerable immunity to magic, primarily through
ingesting lyrium.

This is well known.  That doesn't change the fact that lyrium is highly and permanently addictive and its side effects are catastrophic.

I did not know that the templars were ever slaves or that there was any justification.

You'd have to be willfully blind not to see the problem here.  The Chantry deliberately gets the soldiers of its private army addicted to a drug so dangerous in RL it'd be classified as a Schedule 1 substance, if it didn't have a whole new category created to account for the fact it's worse than anything we have in the real world. 

It's a given that only with lyrium do templars gain their anti-magic abilities--Alistair's comment is a fluke, lore from the games and books AND David Gaider's mouth confirm that his statement is contrary to the intended canon--but that doesn't mean that lyrium isn't dangerous or that it doesn't suck for the templars or that the Chantry doesn't use lyrium's detrimental effects to exploit its own people. 

An argument could of course be made that Templars going into the system damn well know what they're getting into, because the danger of lyrium is well-known, but I still think it's an ****hole move to get them addicted, because it is literally inevitable that lyrium will eventually destroy a Templar's mind.  The only prevention for this is either to quit taking lyrium very early on, or to, well, die before its effects become severe.

It's one of the reasons I just don't get people who support the Chantry because they really think that its some benevolent organization.

okdoky

It's not benevolent.  Sure, it's got a history of doing SOME good things, but it's also got a history of doing some seriously bad things.  Feeding the occasional poor person--and if the Chantry follows the pattern of real world religio-political institutions, feeding the poor IS occasional and incidental, rather than being a primary objective--doesn't mitigate or excuse Exalted Marches enacted JUST because the White Chantry was insulted by the Imperial one, or reneging on the gift of the Dales to the elves that was given to them by the Chantry's own prophet.  The Chantry is NOT a disinterested, a-political entity, it is very political, and it protects its political interests, at the point of a sword if necessary, so sorry, but I don't really care how many people it feeds or shelters. 

ok it seems you have an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

No, they understand the Chantry just fine.  It, like many RL institutions, hides behind the little good it does in order to excuse or hide the mountain of bad it creates.

[Silfren]

Sutamina wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
... *facepalm*

Thats cream pie you put your face into.
Also you provide no evidence that im doing any propaganda for the chantry,
What I am doing is saying Foopydoopydoo shows no indication of understand what the chantry does and evidence to back it up. But I am sure it FEELS TRUE for Foopydoopydoo.
I have seen no evidence that the chantry is enslaving templars. Nobody in books games or lore indicate that the templars indicate that they consider themselves to be slaves.

Oh, please; this statement is just bloody stupid.  The Chantry controls the lyrium trade.  Once addicted to lyrium, Templars are quite literally at the Chantry's mercy.  The individual templar doesn't have to consider themselves a slave for this to be true. 

ibbikiookami wrote... Tevinter would be run down by abominations and
demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.

assumption unsupported by evidence

Oh, but it IS supported.  Tevinter is well established as a functioning society.  Everything we know about magic and the Fade proves this beyond doubt.  And DO NOT try to counter this by throwing out that Tevinter isn't a nice place to live, because that is irrelevant to the point of Tevinter's ability to function as a stable society.

We know that anywhere that magic is practiced in abundance, the Fade is paper-thin.  This is going to be the case at any of the Circles.  But in Tevinter, where magic is practiced all over the entire city, without restriction, obviously it's that much thinner and more widespread.  Yet Tevinter stands and functions just fine, and we don't hear a word about abominations or demons pouring out of the Imperium to terrorize the surrounding areas.  This means either that Tevinter has extremely effective means of countering the dangers of a practically non-existent Veil, or else danger is largely overstated to begin with, or both.

Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, and you can bet that we'd be hearing news from the other nations about having to deal with Tevinter's problems bleeding into the rest of the world.  It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.

What is the foundation for this statement? To me in reading what the chantry does in books, lore and games I can only conclude that Foopydoopydoo has an erroneous understanding of the chantry.

The only way for you to conclude that is if you blithely ignore the fact that the Chantry has done as much, if not more, bad, than good.  No one denies that the Chantry takes in orphans or feeds the poor.  We deny that this happens in abundance as the Chantry's primary purpose for existing, and that it does a damn thing to mitigate all the evil it has perpetrated.

Modifié par Silfren, 12 avril 2013 - 11:02 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Osena109 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

Most of the mages we encounter let the demons take over and become blood mages  would it not be best to just to have them shackled and collared like saarebas?

I'm sure this would never backfire spectacularly.

No i Don't think it will the way this mage war is brewing it looks like the seekers will be force to restore order so the mage's will have to be put down well that is the way i see it any how

The war was caused by Chantry personnel who see it that way, who were deliberately given excuses to act from Anders and Adrian. If the Seekers want whatever order they establish to last, they'll have to put down or otherwise incapacitate everyone mentioned in that last sentence, make some concessions to the Circles, and probably scare the crap out of the less reasonable mages. Merely doing what you suggest is a path right back to square one.

In Ferelden, the Mage's Collective provides an alternative answer; they are not policed by the Chantry, but by and large they stay legal apart from the crime of actually being apostates. The problem is that the equivalent organization in Kirkwall, from my understanding, got broken up by Meredith. And who even knows if there's one elsewhere, or if it's an acceptable alternative?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 avril 2013 - 11:26 .

[Lazy Jer]

Well we could easily solve the problem of demonic possession forever via the following method.  Next time there's a blight, let the Darkspawn kill everyone.  No more people, no more possession.  There's a reason we don't do that, though.  It'd be wrong.

[Sutamina]

ibbikiookami wrote...
 the Chantry offers them lyrium, to control them... which eventually fails as they rebelled anyway after DAII.

perhaps a more apt thing to say is that the chantry tries to use lyrium to maintain influence over the templars so they do not abuse thier position. The chantry never really had control over the templars as much as one would like to think they did.

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

no im trying to express a nuanced argument

Besides we've already seen examples in DAII that can confirm what I said.

Elf mages yes as magisters, elves that are not mages do not have the same rights

Non-mages have the potential of causing considerable harm as well.

so your saying non-mages have the same potential as mages of turing into an abomination and slaughtering a whole villiage? and your saying non-mages have the same potential as mages to mind control others with blood magic?

Besides would you like to be locked up because you have the potential of causing harm? Societies should not work like that.

so your against individuals like serial killers (whether mage or not mage) being locked up? and yes societies do work like that becuase its common sense. Im not saying all mages are the equiviant of serial killers its just an analogue and part of a  nuanced arguement.

"under good conditions mages are not slaves in andrastian societies "
"Explain yourself."

hopefully the main goal that the protagonist of DA3 can achieve

ibbikiookami wrote... Tevinter would be run down by abominations and
demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.
assumption unsupported by evidence
... Are you serious?

absolutely friggen yes. What you said here as far as i can tell is Reductio ad absurdum. Becuase not all mages in Tevinter become abominations. I do not know how Tevinter handles abominations in the country side you might be fine with it or not I do not know.

To me in reading what the Chantry does in lore and in games I can only conclude that you have an erroneous understanding of the Chantry.

Contradiction not an arguement. I am not of the view that the chantry is 100% horrible or 100% good. Careful examination of the details is required. ibbikiookami and Foopydoopydoo both seem to be of the view that the Chantry is 100% horrible without careful attention to details. That to me is unwise and as such erronous to take any action like burning the chantry down.

Modifié par Sutamina, 12 avril 2013 - 11:12 .

[Silfren]

Sutamina wrote...
no im trying to express a nuanced argument

You suck at it, especially because of your insistence on addressing half-sentences, which is NOT the way to argue a point.  Picking apart sentences in four-word-phrase chunks at a time isn't nuance, it's an irritating way of derailing what people are actually saying.  You're literally trying to make two or three DIFFERENT points out of every single sentence you respond to, which doesn't serve to actually do anything useful.

[Silfren]

Sutamina wrote...
so your against individuals like serial killers (whether mage or not mage) being locked up? and yes societies do work like that becuase its common sense. Im not saying all mages are the equiviant of serial killers its just an analogue and part of a  nuanced arguement.

It is NOT analogous.  We don't lock up serial killers until AFTER they have committed crimes.  No civilized society with a just legal system pre-emptively locks up anyone.  Mages of Thedas are locked up because of what they MIGHT do, not to punish them for what they have done. 

Contradiction not an arguement. I am not of the view that the chantry is 100% horrible or 100% good. Careful examination of the details is required. ibbikiookami and Foopydoopydoo both seem to be of the view that the Chantry is 100% horrible without careful attention to details. That to me is unwise and as such erronous to take any action like burning the chantry down.

An organization does not have to be 100% evil to nevertheless cause more harm than good and to overall be a detriment to society. 

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

tbf most of the mages we meet are at the extremes of whatever situation we are in, there is alot more mages who are innocent and just go about there day to day lives.

[Noctis Augustus]

[quote]Sutamina wrote...
[quote]Besides we've already seen examples in DAII that can confirm what I said.[/quote]
Elf mages yes as magisters, elves that are not mages do not have the same rights

[/quote]

Have the same rights as a mage. I mean as citizens they are not considered a lesser race like the Chantry views them. Non-mage elfs have the same rights as non-mage humans. Mage elfs have the same rights as a human mage.

[quote]
[quote]Non-mages have the potential of causing considerable harm as well. [/quote]
so your saying non-mages have the same potential as mages of turing into an abomination and slaughtering a whole villiage?

[/quote]

There's something called bandits, murderers, religions with the intent of converting all races in the world... who can do just the same.

[quote]
[quote]Besides would you like to be locked up because you have the potential of causing harm? Societies should not work like that.[/quote]
so your against individuals like serial killers (whether mage or not mage) being locked up? and yes societies do work like that becuase its common sense. Im not saying all mages are the equiviant of serial killers its just an analogue and part of a  nuanced arguement.

[/quote]

A serial killer has already caused harm, an average mage has not.

[quote]
[quote]
"under good conditions mages are not slaves in andrastian societies "
"Explain yourself."
[/quote]
hopefully the main goal that the protagonist of DA3 can achieve

[/quote]

Freedom for the mages? That's the only way for mages not to be slaves.

Might I remind you the definition of slave:

- A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

[quote]
[quote]ibbikiookami wrote... Tevinter would be run down by abominations and
demons by now. Same can be said about the Dalish elves.
assumption unsupported by evidence
... Are you serious?
[/quote]
absolutely friggen yes. What you said here as far as i can tell is Reductio ad absurdum. Becuase not all mages in Tevinter become abominations. I do not know how Tevinter handles abominations in the country side you might be fine with it or not I do not know.
[/quote]

For someone who knows about logic you sure are bad at using it.

[quote]
[quote]To me in reading what the Chantry does in lore and in games I can only conclude that you have an erroneous understanding of the Chantry.[/quote]
Contradiction not an arguement. I am not of the view that the chantry is 100% horrible or 100% good. Careful examination of the details is required. ibbikiookami and Foopydoopydoo both seem to be of the view that the Chantry is 100% horrible without careful attention to details. That to me is unwise and as such erronous to take any action like burning the chantry down.
[/quote]

I never said that. But to me the negative actions and beliefs of the chantry outweigh the positives. And yes I would burn the Chantry to the ground because of that, no I'm not against the concept of religion.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 12:00 .

[Sutamina]

[quote]Silfren wrote.... Oh, but it IS supported.  [/quote]

No its not, ibbikiookami presented a reductio ad absurdum arguement of Tevinter being completly gone which im saying is not supported becuase Tevinter still exsist. the counter arguement completely flawed.

[quote]
Tevinter is well established as a functioning society.  Everything we know about magic and the Fade proves this beyond doubt.  And DO NOT try to counter this by throwing out that Tevinter isn't a nice place to live, because that is irrelevant to the point of Tevinter's ability to function as a stable society. [/quote]
okdoky not argueing anything about Tevinter

[quote]We know that anywhere that magic is practiced in abundance, the Fade is paper-thin.  This is going to be the case at any of the Circles.  But in Tevinter, where magic is practiced all over the entire city, without restriction, obviously it's that much thinner and more widespread.  Yet Tevinter stands and functions just fine, [/quote]
Sure if your a magistar.

[quote]and we don't hear a word about abominations or demons pouring out of the Imperium to terrorize the surrounding areas.  [/quote]
of course not becuase Tevinter has not yet been examined in detail yet.

[quote]This means either that Tevinter has extremely effective means of countering the dangers of a practically non-existent Veil, or else danger is largely overstated to begin with, or both.[/quote]
To me it would be a mistake to make such an assumption without details.

[quote]Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, [/quote]

Opinion and Assumption does not equal fact. so your saying it would be 100% in ruin instead of just parts of it. hard to know without details.

[quote] and you can bet that we'd be hearing news from the other nations about having to deal with Tevinter's problems bleeding into the rest of the world.  [/quote]
We have from Kirkwall, Feralden, and who knows how many other places that we have yet to explore.

[quote]It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.[/quote]
Yes you do hear such thing from the white chantry
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2

[quote]The only way for you to conclude that is if you blithely ignore the fact that the Chantry has done as much, if not more, bad, than good.[/quote]
How do you know this ? I do not know Im not saying that you are right or that you wrong im wondering how you know.

[quote]No one denies that the Chantry takes in orphans or feeds the poor.[/quote]
okdoky

[quote] We [/quote]
We ? Is Silfren multiple individuals at one computer or claiming to speak for many.

[quote]  deny that this happens in abundance as the Chantry's primary purpose for existing, and that it does a damn thing to mitigate all the evil it has perpetrated [/quote]
Perhaps one should learn that the chantry is filled with people  who can do both good and bad.

[Lady Mortho]

Preach!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Sutamina wrote...
[quote]We know that anywhere that magic is practiced in abundance, the Fade is paper-thin.  This is going to be the case at any of the Circles.  But in Tevinter, where magic is practiced all over the entire city, without restriction, obviously it's that much thinner and more widespread.  Yet Tevinter stands and functions just fine, [/quote]
Sure if your a magistar. [/quote]

Well, yeah. The people in power usually enjoy most of the benefits. The system in Kirkwall worked for the Templars, most of the time.

[quote]
[quote]and we don't hear a word about abominations or demons pouring out of the Imperium to terrorize the surrounding areas.  [/quote]
of course not becuase Tevinter has not yet been examined in detail yet. [/quote]

We're not talking about Tevinter itself, though it was a problem that might have come up in the comics or in Feynriel's letter if it existed. No, we're talking about Tevinter demon problems spilling into the surrounding lands, which you would expect to see if the Tevinter system was as much a failure as you think.

Which it shouldn't be. More on that below.

[quote]
[quote]This means either that Tevinter has extremely effective means of countering the dangers of a practically non-existent Veil, or else danger is largely overstated to begin with, or both.[/quote]
To me it would be a mistake to make such an assumption without details. [/quote]

Here's the details Gaider has for us: the Black Chantry does basically the same thing with its mages the White Chantry does, except that the really priviledged ones get to be either magisters or attached to magisters. For the most part, the systems are identical.

[quote]
[quote]Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, [/quote]

Opinion and Assumption does not equal fact. so your saying it would be 100% in ruin instead of just parts of it. hard to know without details. [/quote]

I actually have to back Sutamina on this one. The Black Chantry knows how to deal with the dangers of magic. They have a system, and only the most competent mages (thus the least likely to do something stupid) get to flout it.

[quote]
[quote] and you can bet that we'd be hearing news from the other nations about having to deal with Tevinter's problems bleeding into the rest of the world.  [/quote]
We have from Kirkwall, Feralden, and who knows how many other places that we have yet to explore.[/quote]

I don't think Silfren meant the slave trade.

[quote]
[quote]It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.[/quote]
Yes you do hear such thing from the white chantry
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2

[/quote]

That doesn't answer her point. Her point was that if Tevinter and Rivain had an abomination per day per city, the White Chantry would point this out to them (and everyone else who would listen) as a helpful hint that their system didn't work. What you posted has nothing to do with that.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 avril 2013 - 12:27 .

[Sutamina]

Silfren wrote... It is NOT analogous. 

yes it is analogous
with consideration that there is no real world equivalent of mages turning into abomination and killing people
in Thedas Abominations provide a history of killing lots of people
Serial Killers provide a history of killing lots of people
thats the analogy

We don't lock up serial killers until AFTER they have committed crimes.  No civilized society with a just legal system pre-emptively locks up anyone. Mages of Thedas are locked up because of what they MIGHT do, not to punish them for what they have done. 

I agree

An organization does not have to be 100% evil to nevertheless cause more harm than good and to overall be a detriment to society.

Great point. Can you prove that?

[sandalisthemaker]

The Qunari only have 2 points... and they are both on top of their heads.

[Sutamina]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That doesn't answer her point. Her point was that if Tevinter and Rivain had an abomination per day per city, the White Chantry would point this out to them as a helpful hint that their system didn't work. What you posted has nothing to do with that.

Perhaps the white chantry has pointed this out but since Tevinter and Rivain were not the focus of DAO and DA2 by writers we do not know.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Sutamina wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
That doesn't answer her point. Her point was that if Tevinter and Rivain had an abomination per day per city, the White Chantry would point this out to them as a helpful hint that their system didn't work. What you posted has nothing to do with that.

Perhaps the white chantry has pointed this out but since Tevinter and Rivain were not the focus of DAO and DA2 by writers we do not know.

It would have come up in the Codex. We get just enough on Tevinter and Rivain that if abominations were a major problem, we'd presumably hear about it.

[Silfren]

double post, oops.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 avril 2013 - 12:37 .

[Silfren]

[quote]Sutamina wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote.... Oh, but it IS supported.  [/quote]No
its not, ibbikiookami presented a reductio ad absurdum arguement of
Tevinter being completly gone which im saying is not supported becuase
Tevinter still exsist. the counter arguement completely flawed.[/quote]

No, they didn't.  They did NOT say that Tevinter is gone.  You need to go back and read their statement again.  If you're going to try to act all logically superior here, it behooves you to make sense of other people's actual arguments. 


[quote]
Tevinter is well established as a functioning society.  Everything we know about magic and the Fade proves this beyond doubt.  And DO NOT try to counter this by throwing out that Tevinter isn't a nice place to live, because that is irrelevant to the point of Tevinter's ability to function as a stable society. [/quote]
okdoky not argueing anything about Tevinter
[quote]We know that anywhere that magic is practiced in abundance, the Fade is paper-thin.  This is going to be the case at any of the Circles.  But in Tevinter, where magic is practiced all over the entire city, without restriction, obviously it's that much thinner and more widespread.  Yet Tevinter stands and functions just fine, [/quote]
Sure if your a magistar.[/quote]

...I told you not to try to make that argument, because it's irrelevant.  Tevinter is stable and functioning, period.  Whether you're a Magister or not has no bearing on this fact.  
[quote]and we don't hear a word about abominations or demons pouring out of the Imperium to terrorize the surrounding areas.  [/quote]
of course not becuase Tevinter has not yet been examined in detail yet.[/quote]

Can you not read or do you ignore people's arguments on purpose?  Tevinter has been sufficiently examined that we KNOW it is not overrun by demons or abominations.  We would hear about it through the Chantry, or from
news trickling in from elsewhere if Tevinter were destroyed by magical disasters.  Also, Wynne and Shale and Feynriel have all been there, and through their eyes we WOULD have heard something if Tevinter were incapacitated due to unregulated magic.

[quote]
[quote]This means either that Tevinter has extremely effective means of countering the dangers of a practically non-existent Veil, or else danger is largely overstated to begin with, or both.[/quote]
To me it would be a mistake to make such an assumption without details.[/quote]

It's not a baseless assumption.  You don't know the first damned thing about logic.

[quote]
[quote]Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, [/quote] Opinion and Assumption
does not equal fact. so your saying it would be 100% in ruin instead of
just parts of it. hard to know without details.[/quote]

Neither mere opinion nor assumption.  It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw from the information presented to us by the books and the games.

[quote]
We have from Kirkwall, Feralden, and who knows how many other places that we have yet to explore.[/quote]
 
Your arguments are easily the most stupid and illogical bullsh*t I've yet read on these forums.  We would KNOW if Tevinter were destroyed by magic.  It would be world-wide news in all of Thedas.  Doesn't matter if we've only been in Kirkwall or  Ferelden--we've "been" in Orlais, too, by the way.  Any of those places would have gotten the news about Tevinter. The Chantry would most assuredly use it in its anti-magic crusade.  So would the average person. 
[quote]
[quote]It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.[/quote]Yes you do hear such thing from the white chantry
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2[/quote]

You've got to be f*cking kidding me.  The White Chantry having a religious stanza about maleficars isn't even remotely close to what I'm talking about.  If Tevinter was destroyed by magic or rendered dysfunctional by it, the Chantry would use this.  I'm not talking about a centuries old song verse in the Chant, I'm talking about current events. 
[quote]
[quote]The only way for you to conclude that is if you blithely ignore the fact that the Chantry has done as much, if not more, bad, than good.[/quote]
How do you know this ? I do not know Im not saying that you are right or that you wrong im wondering how you know.[/quote]

How do I know? Seriously?  How about the Exalted Marches against the Dales?  Forcing elves within its cities to live as second-class citizens who have to abandon their own religion and culture.  Banning any and all magical research, even when it could lead to lasting benefit for all people's?  How about preaching so much anti-mage hatred that many mages literally hate themselves to the point of embracing suicide?  Or how the Chantry endorsed and supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden....or hell, the way it endorses imperial expansion in general, otherwise known as conquering and subjugating other nations?  To reiterate the other comments, how about the way it deliberately uses lyrium to addict and control its own private army?  How it has historically endorsed the tradition of psychically castrating mages? 

[quote]
[quote]  deny that this happens in abundance as the Chantry's primary purpose for existing, and that it does a damn thing to mitigate all the evil it has perpetrated [/quote]
Perhaps one should learn that the chantry is filled with people  who can do both good and bad.
[/quote]

Perhaps one should have some reading comprehension, as I already acknowledged that the Chantry can do both bad and good.  But perhaps also one should learn not to be a condescending jerk who tries to talk about logic when one doesn't know a godd*mn thing about it.

Modifié par Silfren, 13 avril 2013 - 01:03 .

[Noctis Augustus]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Sutamina wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote.... Oh, but it IS supported.  [/quote]No
its not, ibbikiookami presented a reductio ad absurdum arguement of
Tevinter being completly gone which im saying is not supported becuase
Tevinter still exsist. the counter arguement completely flawed.

[/quote]

No, they didn't.  They
did NOT say that Tevinter is gone.  You need to go back and read their
statement again.  If you're going to try to act all logically superior
here, it behooves you to make sense of other people's actual arguments.

[quote]

[quote]

Tevinter is well established as a functioning
society.  Everything we know about magic and the Fade proves this beyond
doubt.  And DO NOT try to counter this by throwing out that Tevinter
isn't a nice place to live, because that is irrelevant to the point of
Tevinter's ability to function as a stable society.

[/quote]

okdoky not argueing anything about Tevinter

[quote]

We
know that anywhere that magic is practiced in abundance, the Fade is
paper-thin.  This is going to be the case at any of the Circles.  But in
Tevinter, where magic is practiced all over the entire city, without
restriction, obviously it's that much thinner and more widespread.  Yet
Tevinter stands and functions just fine,

[/quote]

Sure if your a magistar.

[/quote]


...I told you not to try to make that argument, because it's irrelevant.  Tevinter is stable and functioning, period.  Whether you're a Magister or not has no bearing on this fact.

[quote]
[quote]and we don't hear a word about abominations or demons pouring out of the Imperium to terrorize the surrounding areas.  [/quote]
of course not becuase Tevinter has not yet been examined in detail yet.
[/quote]

Can you not read or do you ignore people's arguments on purpose?  Tevinter
has been sufficiently examined that we KNOW it is not overrun by demons
or abominations.  We would hear about it through the Chantry, or from
news trickling in from elsewhere if Tevinter were destroyed by magical
disasters.  Also, Wynne and Shale and Feynriel have all been there, and
through their eyes we WOULD have heard something if Tevinter were incapacitated due to unregulated magic.

[quote]
[quote]This
means either that Tevinter has extremely effective means of countering
the dangers of a practically non-existent Veil, or else danger is
largely overstated to begin with, or both.[/quote]
To me it would be a mistake to make such an assumption without details.[/quote]

It's not a baseless assumption.  You don't know the first damned thing about logic.

[quote]
[quote]Trust
me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were
as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then
Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, [/quote] Opinion and Assumption
does not equal fact. so your saying it would be 100% in ruin instead of
just parts of it. hard to know without details.[/quote]

Neither mere opinion nor assumption.  It is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to draw from the information presented to us by the books and the games.

[quote]
We have from Kirkwall, Feralden, and who knows how many other places that we have yet to explore.[/quote]
 
Your
arguments are easily the most stupid and illogical bullsh*t I've yet
read on these forums.  We would KNOW if Tevinter were destroyed by
magic.  It would be world-wide news in all of
Thedas.  Doesn't matter if we've only been in Kirkwall or
Ferelden--we've "been" in Orlais, too, by the way.  Any of those places
would have gotten the news about Tevinter. The Chantry would most
assuredly use it in its anti-magic crusade.  So would the average
person. 
[quote]
[quote]It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.[/quote]Yes you do hear such thing from the white chantry
Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2[/quote]

You've got to be f*cking kidding me.  The White Chantry having a religious stanza about maleficars isn't even remotely close to what I'm talking about.  If Tevinter was destroyed by magic or rendered dysfunctional by it, the Chantry would use this.  I'm not talking about a centuries old song verse in the Chant, I'm talking about current events. 
[quote]
[quote]The only way for you to conclude that is if you blithely ignore the fact that the Chantry has done as much, if not more, bad, than good.[/quote]
How do you know this ? I do not know Im not saying that you are right or that you wrong im wondering how you know.[/quote]

How do I know? Seriously?  How about the Exalted Marches against the Dales?  Forcing elves within its cities to live as second-class citizens who have to abandon their own religion and culture.  Banning any and all magical research, even when it could lead to lasting benefit for all people's?  How about preaching so much anti-mage hatred that many mages literally hate themselves to the point of embracing suicide?  Or how the Chantry endorsed and supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden....or hell, the way it endorses imperial expansion in general, otherwise known as conquering and subjugating other nations?  To reiterate the other comments, how about the way it deliberately uses lyrium to addict and control its own private army?  How it has historically endorsed the tradition of psychically castrating mages? 

[quote]
[quote]  deny that this happens in abundance as the Chantry's primary purpose for existing, and that it does a damn thing to mitigate all the evil it has perpetrated [/quote]
Perhaps one should learn that the chantry is filled with people  who can do both good and bad.
[/quote]

Perhaps one should have some reading comprehension, as I already acknowledged that the Chantry can do both bad and good.  But perhaps also one should learn not to be a condescending jerk who tries to talk about logic when one doesn't know a godd*mn thing about it.

[/quote]

Please... ignore her. This is getting us nowhere. I've seen and argumented with so many pro-chantry and pro--templar who are evidently biased. At least I'm honest when I say I like and support Tevinter because of opinion.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 12:54 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Enough of your lies Ibbi. The Qun is the one true path. You mages are but a lie causing as much slavery as the Chantry. All will be equal under the Qun...according to there station.

[sandalisthemaker]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

The Qun is the one true path. You mages are but a lie causing as much slavery as the Chantry. All will be equal under the Qun...according to there station.

LMAO!!!

[Silfren]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin,

Opinion and Assumption does not equal fact. so your saying it would be 100% in ruin instead of just parts of it. hard to know without details.

I actually have to back Sutamina on this one. The Black Chantry knows how to deal with the dangers of magic. They have a system, and only the most competent mages (thus the least likely to do something stupid) get to flout it.

There's nothing to back them up on, because what you say here was precisely my own point: My original quote was Trust me, this is an indisputable fact:  If the alleged dangers of magic were as valid as the Chantry and its apologists would have us believe, then Tevinter WOULD be a smoking ruin, and you can bet that we'd be hearing news from the other nations about having to deal with Tevinter's problems bleeding into the rest of the world.  It's also a given that the White Chantry would be bloody eager to use this information in its campaign against magic.  Yet it doesn't, and we hear of no such thing.  Same goes for Rivain's possessed seers.

My entire point was that Tevinter obviously knows how to deal with magic, because we know that magic is practiced openly throughout the city, not just within the walls of a Circle.  Since we also know that this means the Veil would be so thin as to be practically non-existent, it has to also mean Tevinter has vastly effective methods for controlling potential problems.  Don't forget, Feynriel tells us that magic is practiced openly in the streets.  I realize that Tevinter's culture favors the strong over the weak, but I don't think that translates into magic being used by a small minority of mages, so I figure that when Feynriel tells us that magic is practiced openly in the streets of Tevinter, it's practiced by a LOT of people.  Yet it is by all appearances whole and functional, despite what the White Chantry insists are the cataclysmic dangers.  I think it is as much due to magic's danger being exaggerated as Tevinter's superior methods of containing it.  You certainly don't see the White Chantry considering the possibility that they could learn by Tevinter's example of extensive magical research.  All you hear is "doom, doom, doom, our way is the only one that works!" 

Modifié par Silfren, 13 avril 2013 - 12:59 .

[Noctis Augustus]

RedArmyShogun wrote...

Enough of your lies Ibbi. The Qun is the one true path. You mages are but a lie causing as much slavery as the Chantry. All will be equal under the Qun...according to there station.

LMAO... Go back to rape people and then kill them. No need to do that in that necessary order though.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 12:59 .