138 réponses à ce sujet

[Eralrik]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dialogue:
Granted, DA2's dialogue is not as rich as DAO's, due to the limitations of a voiced protagonist, but re-playing DA2 after a two-year absence and after playing ME3 makes me appreciate it. I can actually roleplay! I have choices that illustrate the personality of my character, I have options dependent on what I did earlier. After the sparsity of choices and the character-derailing autodialogue in ME3 this feels like paradise.

Characters:
Also, the characters aren't railroaded into becoming stereotypical good guys/gals in the end. There is no stereotypical feel-good morality the game smothers me with. I want more characters like Anders! I want more like Isabela! Actually, I want more characters as compelling as most of the DA2 cast....and I want them to keep their edges and not get streamlined for maximum player approval or some traditionalist moral message.

I still hate DA2's re-used locations and enemy wave mechanic. I also hate its combat and I hope DA3 will give me a less insane version, but as for roleplaying - I've always said this was one aspect done well in DA2, and after ME3 this is all the more apparent! I only wish for less misleading dialogue wheel options (my eternal complaint) and a somewhat more serious middle personality option for my protagonist.

I wonder....does anyone else feel the same?

I agree with the OP after playing through ME3 even with the extended cut for the endings and installing the meme I still lost my appetite for ME3 all together, though the citedal dlc was fun the ending still sucks and the point system for military strength sucks 3789 effective military and total 8990 because I don't play Co-op.

I had my qualms with DA2 but I still enjoyed the RP aspect of it and mostly played Rogue & Mage, Rogue was way to fast in combat and disabling traps was huge joke, entire line of traps stand and never bend down to disable them.

Mage staff animation felt like I should have been playing a Diablo Monk or  baton twirling with flashy effect's.

But my favorite characters are Isabela, Merrill & Aveline.

In a city I can see the same area's though bland doesn't really change much, but the rest of it should of had different enviroments.

[ianvillan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Just for the record: I don't want to whitewash DA2's flaws, many of which were mentioned in this thread.

I only wanted to say that roleplaying in DA2 is a great deal better than in ME3, that DA2's characters weren't turned into conventional good guys/gals in the end and that DA2 didn't smother me with its feel-good morality carried by unsubtle emotional manipulation. I would like those aspects to be kept of improved. I would like for DA3 to be more like DAO in several other aspects as well, and that includes some but not all NPC writing, but let's face it: there is no going back to the unvoiced protagonist, and that limits the variety of dialogue they'll be able to create.

I prefer the silent protagonist and believe it a better system for Biowares RPGs but I accept that the voiced character is here to stay. What I don't get is Biowares dedication to the dialogue wheel with its misleading paraphrasing and auto-dialogue, Just because it was included in one game doesn't mean it works in other games and when it doesn't work why keep it the same instead of at least putting in features that could make it better like displaying the full text if you choose too. 

[Ieldra]

ianvillan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Just for the record: I don't want to whitewash DA2's flaws, many of which were mentioned in this thread.

I only wanted to say that roleplaying in DA2 is a great deal better than in ME3, that DA2's characters weren't turned into conventional good guys/gals in the end and that DA2 didn't smother me with its feel-good morality carried by unsubtle emotional manipulation. I would like those aspects to be kept of improved. I would like for DA3 to be more like DAO in several other aspects as well, and that includes some but not all NPC writing, but let's face it: there is no going back to the unvoiced protagonist, and that limits the variety of dialogue they'll be able to create.

I prefer the silent protagonist and believe it a better system for Biowares RPGs but I accept that the voiced character is here to stay. What I don't get is Biowares dedication to the dialogue wheel with its misleading paraphrasing and auto-dialogue, Just because it was included in one game doesn't mean it works in other games and when it doesn't work why keep it the same instead of at least putting in features that could make it better like displaying the full text if you choose too. 

Yes, they definitely need to work on the paraphrases, and that includes making them longer, more meaningful and not misleading, but including the full text is usually not possible since often a whole exchange is triggered by it. As for autodialogue, I don't mind it at all if it makes sense and doesn't infringe on my roleplaying. As long as the autodialogue following a choice on the wheel follows the spirit of the text appearing on the wheel and nothing else regarding the kind of behavior I want to express, it's all fine. Things get bad when the autodialogue includes other things the writers think are automatically associated with the paraphrase, where this is not the case, or when they are completely different as in the infamous example of Hawke's line to Isabela: written "I'm glad you're back". Spoken: "You did the right thing". Ugh.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Sutekh wrote...
-snip-

Do me a favor and don't paint everyone with the same brush. 

[Dabrikishaw]

What is this "feel-good morality" you keep talking about?

[Sejborg]

ibbikiookami wrote...

No, I think the opposite. It's such a limitating game, I think they should delete DAII from existence and make DAIII based on DAO this time.

I like this suggestion. 

[stormhit]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

Personally I don't think companions were well written in DA 2, especially in comparision to DA: O. In fact, I had pretty unpleasant time talking to most of them. Of all possible companions, only Varric was interesting. Anders: a whiny, emo terroriist. Isabela: flirt / sleep with anyone / anything that move, and a walking collection of STDs =.=! Merrill: A stupid, terribly stubborn, obsessive, socially retard blood mage. Sebastian: a preachy, boring as hell "wannbe". Aveline: typical narrowed mind "protector of justice" (I'm still fascinated with her "guardman can solve every problems" ideal.). Fenris: an Anime looking Mr Grumpy "Oh terrible things happen to me. Let me kill your ear with constant whining and b*tchin about mages.
The only thing I think BioWare can get out of DA 2 is Learning from your mistake. Because DA 2 was a terrible failure of a sequel. Bad writing, bad gameplay, bad and repeative areas, crappy cartoonist looking, and filled with shallow characters. Man they have lot of work to do in DA:I

Every character ever in anything can be made to sound ridiculous by reducing them to dismissive generalizations. Not to suggest your generalizations were accurate.

[bmwcrazy]

DA2 was too waaay short and there weren't enough new places or dungeons to explore.

If they could make the game as grand as Origins and gameplay wise much like DA2, it'd be fine by me.

I have no desire to touch the multiplayer content, however.

[RepHope]

DA2 instead of using good guys/gals use incredibly stupid character like Anders who kills any chance for compromise and is a total hypocrite (tho that may b Justices fault) Isabela is boring, shallow, and not very interesting. Out of all the characters the only one I liked was Merril, although I did like Varic to some extent. I wouldn't mind seeing those two again but everyone else can go crawl into a bush somewhere and die for all I care.

Edit: as for feel-good morality I have only one response: Wut. Did we play the same game? Because DA2 was heavily skewed toward mages and the only real gray are was the qunari everything else was pretty black and white to me.

Modifié par RepHope, 10 avril 2013 - 11:09 .

[XX-Pyro]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Scelous wrote...

DA2 is vastly superior to DA:O. When I went back to play DA:O, I was shocked at how clunky and slow the combat felt. It was difficult for me to enjoy.

Also, Miranda is hawt.

That is because you have to think and strategize,unlike in DA2 where you just mash a button for 10 minutes

I don't remember thinking or strategizing in either game, I pretty much mashed buttons in DAO on nightmare and still came out on top of every encounter, it was just slower, not more tactical in any way.

[Razyx]

 

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dialogue:
Granted, DA2's dialogue is not as rich as DAO's, due to the limitations of a voiced protagonist, but re-playing DA2 after a two-year absence and after playing ME3 makes me appreciate it. I can actually roleplay! I have choices that illustrate the personality of my character, I have options dependent on what I did earlier. After the sparsity of choices and the character-derailing autodialogue in ME3 this feels like paradise.

Characters:
Also, the characters aren't railroaded into becoming stereotypical good guys/gals in the end. There is no stereotypical feel-good morality the game smothers me with. I want more characters like Anders! I want more like Isabela! Actually, I want more characters as compelling as most of the DA2 cast....and I want them to keep their edges and not get streamlined for maximum player approval or some traditionalist moral message.

I still hate DA2's re-used locations and enemy wave mechanic. I also hate its combat and I hope DA3 will give me a less insane version, but as for roleplaying - I've always said this was one aspect done well in DA2, and after ME3 this is all the more apparent! I only wish for less misleading dialogue wheel options (my eternal complaint) and a somewhat more serious middle personality option for my protagonist.

I wonder....does anyone else feel the same?

Well I think you can't compare ME3 with any game. ME3 is mainly a railroaded game, the missions ahead are perfectly visible given the circumstances and other elements responding to the plot/consequences coming from ME1 and ME2. Anyway DA2 might have a little more variety in that departament, maybe just need more neutral choices as some pointed out previously, so agreed with the more "middle personality options".

However the characters around the main one are always in the spectrum from radical (neutral not much) to good. That will assure that you can have some empathy/simpathy with someone, so mostly they are stereotypical in every game.  I think Bioware usually does a good work around the characters (maybe it needs more neutral options here too).

About the combat, overall I like more than DA:O. I know that the purist RPG player won't be agreed but the "old way" is slow and monotonous (is like reading a book where you know what's gonna happen)...., and more about the purist RPG thingy , I'm "still waiting for" a new and dinamic level up system. Yes, you can rid off what you have learnt and learn something new..., no respecs, no classes, no archetypes*, only "points of knowledge" to manage the different skills (well maybe a warrior cannot be a mage but....)

ED: *well classes or archetypes will depend on the world we play (not in DA) 

Modifié par Razyx, 10 avril 2013 - 11:25 .

[Scelous]

As someone who liked DA2 more than DA:O, I will say that the NPC companions were probably the weakest out of any Bioware game. And that's okay; if you make so many companions -- and Bioware has made a TON -- you're bound to have some hits and misses. Hell, in some ways, that's a reflection of life; you won't like everyone you meet in the world.

I gotta say, though, I am genuinely surprised at how many people seem to like Varric. It looks like he's the most popular NPC companion from DA2. I absolutely could not stand him. He was way, way, way too bland and boring, too much of a nice guy. I dunno. My most favorite character was Fenris, but I do understand the complaints about him. Second to that was Aveline, which I wasn't expecting -- she first appeared to be kind of like a bland paladin, but I really grew to like her and her personality. Setting her up on a date was pretty funny.

Just my own personal preferences. Again, though, I am surprised at the Varric love. And I'm not saying that's bad! I'm just surprised.

[Noctis Augustus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ianvillan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Just for the record: I don't want to whitewash DA2's flaws, many of which were mentioned in this thread.

I only wanted to say that roleplaying in DA2 is a great deal better than in ME3, that DA2's characters weren't turned into conventional good guys/gals in the end and that DA2 didn't smother me with its feel-good morality carried by unsubtle emotional manipulation. I would like those aspects to be kept of improved. I would like for DA3 to be more like DAO in several other aspects as well, and that includes some but not all NPC writing, but let's face it: there is no going back to the unvoiced protagonist, and that limits the variety of dialogue they'll be able to create.

I prefer the silent protagonist and believe it a better system for Biowares RPGs but I accept that the voiced character is here to stay. What I don't get is Biowares dedication to the dialogue wheel with its misleading paraphrasing and auto-dialogue, Just because it was included in one game doesn't mean it works in other games and when it doesn't work why keep it the same instead of at least putting in features that could make it better like displaying the full text if you choose too. 

Yes, they definitely need to work on the paraphrases, and that includes making them longer, more meaningful and not misleading, but including the full text is usually not possible since often a whole exchange is triggered by it. As for autodialogue, I don't mind it at all if it makes sense and doesn't infringe on my roleplaying. As long as the autodialogue following a choice on the wheel follows the spirit of the text appearing on the wheel and nothing else regarding the kind of behavior I want to express, it's all fine. Things get bad when the autodialogue includes other things the writers think are automatically associated with the paraphrase, where this is not the case, or when they are completely different as in the infamous example of Hawke's line to Isabela: written "I'm glad you're back". Spoken: "You did the right thing". Ugh.

There's no need for a whole exchange, I consider that to be somewhat like auto-dialogue. Why not make it like "The Witcher"
 series?

Here's an example:
The Witcher 2

[The Six Path of Pain]

XX-Pyro wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Scelous wrote...

DA2 is vastly superior to DA:O. When I went back to play DA:O, I was shocked at how clunky and slow the combat felt. It was difficult for me to enjoy.

Also, Miranda is hawt.

That is because you have to think and strategize,unlike in DA2 where you just mash a button for 10 minutes

I don't remember thinking or strategizing in either game, I pretty much mashed buttons in DAO on nightmare and still came out on top of every encounter, it was just slower, not more tactical in any way.

So you never tanked,set traps,scouted ahead with stealth,or combined spells ever in Origins?

[The Six Path of Pain]

Filament wrote...

Tanking and combining talents are still around in DA2 (expanded upon, really). Traps and scouting in DAO were hardly useful or necessary.

I can see your point on the Tank aspect,but give me an example on talent combinations since I never found one?Also speak for yourself on the traps.I always raped my enemies with them and stealth just helped me set traps in the best position possible without alerting the enemy to my presence

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 11 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Double Post

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 11 avril 2013 - 03:55 .

[The Six Path of Pain]

Damn Triple post lol I think that's a first for BSN XD

Modifié par The Six Path of Pain, 11 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[AlanC9]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Dialogue:
Granted, DA2's dialogue is not as rich as DAO's, due to the limitations of a voiced protagonist, but re-playing DA2 after a two-year absence and after playing ME3 makes me appreciate it. I can actually roleplay! I have choices that illustrate the personality of my character, I have options dependent on what I did earlier. After the sparsity of choices and the character-derailing autodialogue in ME3 this feels like paradise.

How does DA2 get there, anyway? More total dialogue, cuts to non-PC lines, less cutscenes?

[Xilizhra]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Damn Triple post lol I think that's a first for BSN XD

It's not. I've seen a sextuple post before.

[In Exile]

The Six Path of Pain wrote...
So you never tanked,set traps,scouted ahead with stealth,or combined spells ever in Origins?

A tank wasn't needed in DA:O because mobs were super easy to clear out. In DA2 mobs have HP sponges, which force you to manage aggro somewhat. And boss battles in DA2 have lots of waves and lock you into a particular space, which doesn't let you use the environment to manage aggro either, so that means tanking actually has value. 

But in DA:O tanking wasn't required at all. A 3 mage party could clean out everything. I liked to bring a squishy rogue just to make things kind of hard on nightmare. DA2 was much harder and actually required you to have a more balanced party, especially if you didn't roll a rogue PC (who was stupidly broken). 

Edit: 

And traps were completey useless and scouting was pointless. 

Modifié par In Exile, 11 avril 2013 - 04:25 .

[JerZey CJ]

Bfler wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

No, I think the opposite. It's such a limitating game, I think they should delete DAII from existence and make DAIII based on DAO this time.

I support this statement.

I second third sixthed this support.

Modifié par JerZeyCJ2, 11 avril 2013 - 04:49 .

[JerZey CJ]

Scelous wrote...

DA2 is vastly superior to DA:O. When I went back to play DA:O, I was shocked at how clunky and slow the combat felt. It was difficult for me to enjoy.

Also, Miranda is hawt.

Ahahahaha...no. inb4 opinions and all that stuff.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Filament wrote...

The Six Path of Pain wrote...

Filament wrote...

Tanking and combining talents are still around in DA2 (expanded upon, really). Traps and scouting in DAO were hardly useful or necessary.

I can see your point on the Tank aspect,but give me an example on talent combinations since I never found one?Also speak for yourself on the traps.I always raped my enemies with them and stealth just helped me set traps in the best position possible without alerting the enemy to my presence

DA2 had cross-class combos instead of spell combos, meaning every class had abilities that could initiate a combo (by setting the status effect of staggered, disoriented, or frozen) and other abilities that could complete a combo (typically by doing a lot more damage). So there are quite a few more combo possibilities, though granted doing a lot more damage is not as flashy as causing a new spell effect. But it is as tactically significant. To me it was more significant, because CCCs were something I had to rely on, whereas spell combos were either just "neat" (grease fire) or brokenly powerful (storm of the century).

I do only speak for myself on the traps, and would qualify that I just hate using consumables in combat in general, so that colors my assessment of how useful they are. I don't deny that traps have potential to make gameplay more complex but I don't like DAO's implementation. But I like the idea of a trap-setting talent tree for rogues.

And actually I did use stealth a fair amount, now that I think about it. I mean I had about 9 playthroughs, I had some time to experiment. I do like DAO's stealth better.

Hmmm I totally completely forgot about Cross class Combos lol Well I haven't played the damn game in a while and I remember I wasn't too fond of them either.Anyway I was looking more for examples like Entropic Death which is Death Hex/Death Cloud,Improved Drain which is Vulnerability Hex/Drain Life or Drain Mana or the Paralysis Explosion which is created when you combine the Paralysis and Repulsion Glyphs.