96 réponses à ce sujet

[Geist.H]

With the extra fitness, the prime needs two shots to break your full shields. That means the third shot will only bring you down to the health gate. I found the extra health very advantageous. Dont need cryo blast, just shoot incinerate twice

Skip turret, keep fitness. Incinerate twice with Armor perk does nowhere near as much damages as Incinerate with freeze combo casted twice, once again, it doesn't work like that.

[NYG1991]

I might just be a little crazy with my jiggly tonight and spec no fitness and try everything at once. Just strap a cyclonic 3 or 4 on as a fitness band aid.

[Dorick]

Curzyfish wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Wow, so many critics. I guess video evidence that a build works really well isnt enough.

A build working well doesn't mean it can't work better with an extra power at your disposal.

Or that just as you say you don't find cryo blast useful, others (myself included) don't find the extra fitness useful.

With the extra fitness, the prime needs two shots to break your full shields. That means the third shot will only bring you down to the health gate. I found the extra health very advantageous. Dont need cryo blast, just shoot incinerate twice. 

You were using a cylo 4 and shield gear 5.  The prime would have needed the same amount of shots to bring you down to health gate whether you had full fitness or 0 fitness.

No, it was cyclo 1, I only use level 1 equipment in these vids. 

[megawug]

I'm certainly not questioning the build. I like cryo blast because it makes her more fun for me.

[Dorick]

Geist.H wrote...

With the extra fitness, the prime needs two shots to break your full shields. That means the third shot will only bring you down to the health gate. I found the extra health very advantageous. Dont need cryo blast, just shoot incinerate twice

 Incinerate twice with Armor perk does nowhere near as much damages as Incinerate with freeze combo casted twice, once again, it doesn't work like that.

Wrong. If we are talking damage to armor, you actually DO do more damage by using incinerate twice. 

narida.pytalhost.com/me3/classes/#Engineer/Quarian/BPAAA//////

Freeze combo (you used cryo blast, then incinerate) is 594 + 100%+25% = 1485
With armor damage evo, incinerate cast twice is 891 x 2 = 1782. And that doesnt factor in the DoT you get from letting your first move be incinerate. 

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

You also have to consider the fact that I dont have to setup my incinerates when I go for the armor damage evo and skip using cryo blast, meaning I'm not forced to use cryo blast to get the full potential out of incinerate. 

Since the majority of targets are armored, I will go with casting incinerate twice. 

Modifié par Dorick, 10 avril 2013 - 08:20 .

[DcIhNaGv3z]

The more and more I get used to using soft cover, the less and less I feel the need for fitness.

Personally I like to do a 6/6/6/5/3.

Cryo Blast is a critical skill though imo, and I would take it over incinerate. Area effect debuff is extremely helpful.

[Geist.H]

Freeze combo (you used cryo blast, then incinerate) is 594 + 100%+25% = 1485
With armor damage evo, incinerate cast twice is 891 x 2 = 1782. And that doesnt factor in the DoT you get from letting your first move be incinerate.

It doesn't work like that. See my post.

Now let's see with Freeze combo:

Damage: 544.5/272.25/272.25/816.75 with the same setup and no chill/freeze.
= 330/165/165/495 (base value)
+20% (66/33/33/99) Incinerate 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 1
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 4
+15% (49.5/24.75/24.75/74.25)

Base damage increase from Cryo Blast:

+25% (82,5,/41,25/41,25/123,75)

Total: 627/313,5/313,5/940,5

Freeze combo is multiplicative:

Add 100%

1254/627/627/1881

2 armor perk incinerate: 2450,26
2 freeze combo: 3762

Tl;dr version

You obviously haven't properly tested it ingame anyway, because the difference is so huge, you can immediately tell wether or not someone is running Freeze Combo.

Modifié par Geist.H, 10 avril 2013 - 08:27 .

[Dorick]

Geist.H wrote...

Freeze combo (you used cryo blast, then incinerate) is 594 + 100%+25% = 1485
With armor damage evo, incinerate cast twice is 891 x 2 = 1782. And that doesnt factor in the DoT you get from letting your first move be incinerate.

It doesn't work like that. See my post.

Now let's see with Freeze combo:

Damage: 544.5/272.25/272.25/816.75 with the same setup and no chill/freeze.
= 330/165/165/495 (base value)
+20% (66/33/33/99) Incinerate 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 1
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 4
+15% (49.5/24.75/24.75/74.25)

Base damage increase from Cryo Blast:

+25% (82,5,/41,25/41,25/123,75)

Total: 627/313,5/313,5/940,5

Freeze combo is multiplicative:

Add 100%

1254/627/627/1881

2 armor perk incinerate: 2450,26
2 freeze combo: 3762

Tl;dr version

You obviously haven't properly tested it ingame anyway, because the difference is so huge, you can immediately tell wether or not someone is running Freeze Combo.

I did tons of in game testing, all I noticed was how poor the freeze combo was, since you lost the synergistic payload everytime an enemy dodged/blocked, or you were forced to move away without finishing. 

Also, in that post, he adds the debuff BEFORE adding the freeze combo, has someone proven that its not the other way around?

[Dorick]

Geist.H wrote...

Freeze combo (you used cryo blast, then incinerate) is 594 + 100%+25% = 1485
With armor damage evo, incinerate cast twice is 891 x 2 = 1782. And that doesnt factor in the DoT you get from letting your first move be incinerate.

It doesn't work like that. See my post.

Now let's see with Freeze combo:

Damage: 544.5/272.25/272.25/816.75 with the same setup and no chill/freeze.
= 330/165/165/495 (base value)
+20% (66/33/33/99) Incinerate 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 1
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 3
+10% (33/16.5/16.5/49.5) Quarian Defender 4
+15% (49.5/24.75/24.75/74.25)

Base damage increase from Cryo Blast:

+25% (82,5,/41,25/41,25/123,75)

Total: 627/313,5/313,5/940,5

Freeze combo is multiplicative:

Add 100%

1254/627/627/1881

2 armor perk incinerate: 2450,26
2 freeze combo: 3762

Tl;dr version

You obviously haven't properly tested it ingame anyway, because the difference is so huge, you can immediately tell wether or not someone is running Freeze Combo.

Help me check my math, because Im not coming up with the same numbers. 

I did my math without speccing into the passives at all, because they remain constant. 

Base damage on incinerate vs armor is 594

When I added the debuff, and then the cry combo, I get 1485
When I do it the other way around, applying cryo combo before adding the debuff, I get 1485

1485 comes out to be about 300 damage smaller than two incinerates vs armor with 6b, plus you have to factor in the extra time for the DoT

So how are our numbers not aligning, bc what you've shown me is that cryo combo does do more. 

Modifié par Dorick, 10 avril 2013 - 09:20 .

[Miniditka77]

Dorick wrote...

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

Wrong.  Even assuming that two incinerates does more damage than Cryo-Incinerate (which is shaky), more damage =/= more DPS.  A Cryo/Incinerate combo takes about 1.5 seconds.  A double incinerate takes 2.5 seconds.  You have to do about 50% more damage for the double incinerate to have higher DPS.

Plus, the Cryo Blast is going to increase the damage of whatever weapon you're firing in the interim as well, further increasing your DPS.

[Dorick]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

Wrong.  Even assuming that two incinerates does more damage than Cryo-Incinerate (which is shaky), more damage =/= more DPS.  A Cryo/Incinerate combo takes about 1.5 seconds.  A double incinerate takes 2.5 seconds.  You have to do about 50% more damage for the double incinerate to have higher DPS.

Plus, the Cryo Blast is going to increase the damage of whatever weapon you're firing in the interim as well, further increasing your DPS.

Although Geist has me questioning my math, I actually already did the calculation for DPS here

[Dorick]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

Wrong.  Even assuming that two incinerates does more damage than Cryo-Incinerate (which is shaky), more damage =/= more DPS.  A Cryo/Incinerate combo takes about 1.5 seconds.  A double incinerate takes 2.5 seconds.  You have to do about 50% more damage for the double incinerate to have higher DPS.

Plus, the Cryo Blast is going to increase the damage of whatever weapon you're firing in the interim as well, further increasing your DPS.

you could argue that incinerate primes and triggers every single time, but both the extra weapon damage and the extra tech combo would be fairly hard to calculate. 

[Dorick]

@geist

I tried my math again, adding in the passives, and I got

2040 cry blast combo
2450 double incinerate (btw this is missing the DoT you get by using incinerate first)

[Miniditka77]

Dorick wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

Wrong.  Even assuming that two incinerates does more damage than Cryo-Incinerate (which is shaky), more damage =/= more DPS.  A Cryo/Incinerate combo takes about 1.5 seconds.  A double incinerate takes 2.5 seconds.  You have to do about 50% more damage for the double incinerate to have higher DPS.

Plus, the Cryo Blast is going to increase the damage of whatever weapon you're firing in the interim as well, further increasing your DPS.

Although Geist has me questioning my math, I actually already did the calculation for DPS here

Even if your base numbers turn out to be correct, you're forgetting two things:  First, you are ignoring the fact that Cryo can get TWO incinerates under the same debuff window, and that's if you take Radius instead of Duration.  Your sustained DPS calculation only figures Cryo-Incinerate-Cryo-Incinerate instead of Cryo-Inc-Inc.  You will do much more DPS with the 2nd one.

Second, once again - this calculation only makes sense if you're assuming you're not firing your weapon.  Cryo Blast increases your weapon damage 25% also, which should more than make up for the DPS difference you calculated, unless maybe you're using a Shuriken with no armor piercing.

[Geist.H]

Armor damage gives a flat multiplier of 1,5x, it's not additive like other bonuses.

It means that you calculate the base damages of incinerate, then multiply it by 1,5.

Incinerate does 1000 x 1,5 = 1500 damages.

Freeze combo is a flat multiplier of 2x, which you calculate after adding Cryo Blast +25% to incinerate base damages.

Incinerate does (1000 + 250) x2 = 2500 damages.

I made a lengthy explaination on page 2 digging up old threads made on the subject.

So, once again, Armor perk Incinerate cannot outdamage Freeze combo, even more so when you bring your weapon increased damage output after that.

Modifié par Geist.H, 10 avril 2013 - 09:47 .

[Dorick]

Miniditka77 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Miniditka77 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

So vs armored targets, it IS more DPS to use incinerate twice. Plus incinerate primes, and the damage is multiplied by the number of targets you hit. Since you will be using incinerate twice, you have 2 chances to hit multiple targets, instead of one. 

Wrong.  Even assuming that two incinerates does more damage than Cryo-Incinerate (which is shaky), more damage =/= more DPS.  A Cryo/Incinerate combo takes about 1.5 seconds.  A double incinerate takes 2.5 seconds.  You have to do about 50% more damage for the double incinerate to have higher DPS.

Plus, the Cryo Blast is going to increase the damage of whatever weapon you're firing in the interim as well, further increasing your DPS.

Although Geist has me questioning my math, I actually already did the calculation for DPS here

Even if your base numbers turn out to be correct, you're forgetting two things:  First, you are ignoring the fact that Cryo can get TWO incinerates under the same debuff window, and that's if you take Radius instead of Duration.  Your sustained DPS calculation only figures Cryo-Incinerate-Cryo-Incinerate instead of Cryo-Inc-Inc.  You will do much more DPS with the 2nd one.

Second, once again - this calculation only makes sense if you're assuming you're not firing your weapon.  Cryo Blast increases your weapon damage 25% also, which should more than make up for the DPS difference you calculated, unless maybe you're using a Shuriken with no armor piercing.

Fair enough. But that requires you get the chance to successfully fire three powers in a row on the same target within that time frame, which is if you are familiar with platinum is unlikely unless you are safely fighting a boss.
Im also going to bet right off the bat that the dps is still pretty close between these two setups. My main argument is that when you go with constant incinerate, you get the same dps per hit, no need to setup your target. You dont need to spec up to rank 6 into a move thats only used to prep another move. And I already mentioned that I didnt calculate the extra gun damage bc I dont calculate the extra damage from a tech combo. 

[Dorick]

Geist.H wrote...

Armor damage gives a flat multiplier of 1,5x, it's not additive like other bonuses.

It means that you calculate the base damages of incinerate, then multiply it by 1,5.

Incinerate does 1000 x 1,5 = 1500 damages.

Freeze combo is a flat multiplier of 2x, which you calculate after adding Cryo Blast +25% to incinerate base damages.

Incinerate does (1000 + 250) x2 = 2500 damages.

I made a lengthy explaination on page 2 digging up old threads made on the subject.

So, once again, Armor perk Incinerate cannot outdamage Freeze combo, even more so when you bring your weapon increased damage output after that.

Geist look at your math. 

If what you said is true, then using cryo blast + incinerate =2500
Using incinerate twice at 1500 per hit = 3000 + DoT from having incinerate be your first move. 

The double incinerate does more damage than the cryo combo. 

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

Modifié par Dorick, 10 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[Zjarcal]

Dorick wrote...

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

True, but you're relying on teammates for that since you can't self detonate, whereas with your gun buffed by cryo it's all you, no need to rely on others, so it's more consistent damage.

[Geist.H]

If what you said is true, then using cryo blast + incinerate =2500
Using incinerate twice at 1500 per hit = 3000 + DoT from having incinerate be your first move.

A difference beaten by 2 Adas shots. Freeze combo still deals more damage with less cooldowns/time.

If you run Cryo with 8 seconds duration and 200% weight bonus to spam faster:

Cryo followed by 3 incinerate = 7500 damages + weapons enhanced by 25%.
4x Incinerate = 6000 damages + weapons.

You gain a free Incinerate + a good deal of extra weapon damage that also applies to teammates.

However, you have conitnually neglected several other factors.

If
I am running a Claymore X and fire after chilling the target, I get
~412 extra damage (not counting differences in armor weakening).  If it
has Incendiary Ammo on it, the DOT does extra damage.  When I hit it
with Incinerate, the resulting Fire Explosion does extra damage.

With a Claymore X, Cryo + Incinerate takes only 3s.  Incinerate + Incinerate takes 4.85s.  The Cryo combo takes less time...

Ignoring
the fact that in a team game Cryo Blast makes even more sense since you
are applying a global debuff that increases all damage to the target
from all players.  But that also means "incinerate as a trigger and
primer" is irrelevant as well, because it isn't priming for anything in a
QFE solo.

Indeed.

Modifié par Geist.H, 10 avril 2013 - 10:10 .

[capn233]

Dorick wrote...

Geist look at your math. 

If what you said is true, then using cryo blast + incinerate =2500
Using incinerate twice at 1500 per hit = 3000 + DoT from having incinerate be your first move. 

The double incinerate does more damage than the cryo combo. 

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

You are correct on one very specific point:

Incinerate (armor) + Incinerate (armor)

does more damage than

Cryo Blast + Incinerate (Frozen Vulnerability)

However, you have conitnually neglected several other factors.

If I am running a Claymore X and fire after chilling the target, I get ~412 extra damage (not counting differences in armor weakening).  If it has Incendiary Ammo on it, the DOT does extra damage.  When I hit it with Incinerate, the resulting Fire Explosion does extra damage.

With a Claymore X, Cryo + Incinerate takes only 3s.  Incinerate + Incinerate takes 4.85s.  The Cryo combo takes less time...

Ignoring the fact that in a team game Cryo Blast makes even more sense since you are applying a global debuff that increases all damage to the target from all players.  But that also means "incinerate as a trigger and primer" is irrelevant as well, because it isn't priming for anything in a QFE solo.

[iOnlySignIn]

Deerber wrote...

Dorick wrote...

The build is at the end of the demonstration

Its a weapon build designed to make use of the quarian ADAS rifle. 

I'm not a fan of cryo blast, since it doesnt prime armor, and doesnt do any of its damage up front, so I skipped in favor of fitness

Stopped reading here, sorry.

[Dorick]

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

True, but you're relying on teammates for that since you can't self detonate, whereas with your gun buffed by cryo it's all you, no need to rely on others, so it's more consistent damage.

Or you can just put on incindiary ammo. 

[Zjarcal]

Dorick wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

True, but you're relying on teammates for that since you can't self detonate, whereas with your gun buffed by cryo it's all you, no need to rely on others, so it's more consistent damage.

Or you can just put on incindiary ammo. 

Incendiary ammo that would also be enhanced by the Cryo blast debuff.

Nevermind that you can't even get two fire explosions in quick succession on the same target with Incendiary ammo, which makes the idea of two Incinerates in a row for more damage due to explosions pointless, whereas with the cryo debuff all of your weapon shots would be buffed.

Oh and this...

capn233 wrote...

Ignoring the fact that in a team game Cryo Blast makes even more sense since you are applying a global debuff that increases all damage to the target from all players.  But that also means "incinerate as a trigger and primer" is irrelevant as well, because it isn't priming for anything in a QFE solo.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 10 avril 2013 - 10:46 .

[Dorick]

capn233 wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Geist look at your math. 

If what you said is true, then using cryo blast + incinerate =2500
Using incinerate twice at 1500 per hit = 3000 + DoT from having incinerate be your first move. 

The double incinerate does more damage than the cryo combo. 

Edit: Also, the incinerate acts as both a trigger and a primer, meaning you get more tech combos to offset the loss of some extra gun damage. 

You are correct on one very specific point:

Incinerate (armor) + Incinerate (armor)

does more damage than

Cryo Blast + Incinerate (Frozen Vulnerability)

However, you have conitnually neglected several other factors.

If I am running a Claymore X and fire after chilling the target, I get ~412 extra damage (not counting differences in armor weakening).  If it has Incendiary Ammo on it, the DOT does extra damage.  When I hit it with Incinerate, the resulting Fire Explosion does extra damage.

With a Claymore X, Cryo + Incinerate takes only 3s.  Incinerate + Incinerate takes 4.85s.  The Cryo combo takes less time...

Ignoring the fact that in a team game Cryo Blast makes even more sense since you are applying a global debuff that increases all damage to the target from all players.  But that also means "incinerate as a trigger and primer" is irrelevant as well, because it isn't priming for anything in a QFE solo.

That's a very different playstyle where you give up power DPS for weapon DPS, since you are slowing your recharge. Also, now if cryo blast were to miss its target or get blocked, you will have to wait for both cryo blast cool downs before getting the debuff benefits, that's 6 seconds waiting time. 

You could always just use claymore and double incinerate, in fact, if the first shot from claymore is enough to take down shields like in your example, then it would follow that you could take your first shot, and then immediately get the tech combo while doing 6B DPS, which we've already seen is not too far off within the first 2 power moves

ALSO, if you are talking about such large recharge times on powers, then that negates the one fair argument that you should be able to get multiple incinerates off of a single debuff. So you are actually losing DPS by bringing a heavy, harder hitting weapon. 

Finally, people keep overlooking the fact that without cryo blast, you can spec full into fitness and turret. while maintining fairly good dps by constantly hitting targets with incinerate. 

A lot of this is theoretical, its hard to apply every aspect of it to the real game. One of the things I like most about simply using incinerate is that it seems to kill things, instead of spending time setting up a debuff and trying to hit the same target. Can you imagine trying to hit a bomber with two powers in a row? especially with the heavy cool down of a claymore?? If that bomber doesnt dodge the first or second power, you still have a good chance of being forced to deal with another bomber, hunter, or possibly just missing your second shot. It doesnt matter when you go double incinerate, every shot keeps the same damage bonus. 

also, it is totally relevant that incinerate triggers in the solo, because it allows you to shoot with incediary rounds, then trigger. Shoot, incinerate combo, shoot, incinerate combo. No cryo blast to detract from either of those. 

Modifié par Dorick, 10 avril 2013 - 11:08 .

[Zjarcal]

Dorick wrote...

Finally, people keep overlooking the fact that without cryo blast, you can spec full into fitness and turret. while maintining fairly good dps by constantly hitting targets with incinerate. 

Even as someone who loves the turret and would never spec out of it, suggesting that the turret is more beneficial than cryo blast is ridiculous.