96 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

lol @ putting 6 ranks in turret and NONE in CB when its universally acknowledged how bad the pets are.

[Dorick]

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Finally, people keep overlooking the fact that without cryo blast, you can spec full into fitness and turret. while maintining fairly good dps by constantly hitting targets with incinerate. 

Even as someone who loves the turret and would never spec out of it, suggesting that the turret is more beneficial than cryo blast is ridiculous.

That's probably because you dont understand utility, or using a power to control game mechanics rather than damage. In the build in the video, the turret was great. If you rewatch you can see me hitting groups with tech combos and incinerate because they would all bunch up around the turret. The turret can also prime with flamethrower. He is a decoy you can throw. Makes her better vs Cerb and Geth. 

Its not just the turret though, rank 4, 5, and 6 of fitness combined with shield booster. 

Besides the fact that I still think the rhythm and use of incinerate 6b is better than the cryo combo anyways. 

[Dorick]

HolyAvenger wrote...

lol @ putting 6 ranks in turret and NONE in CB when its universally acknowledged how bad the pets are.

I dont think the pets are good either, would still rather have one than a cryo blast I dont need. 

[Dorick]

I have college in 15 min, will see your arguments later, perhaps from my ipad, if the lecture is boring.

[Zjarcal]

Dorick wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Finally, people keep overlooking the fact that without cryo blast, you can spec full into fitness and turret. while maintining fairly good dps by constantly hitting targets with incinerate. 

Even as someone who loves the turret and would never spec out of it, suggesting that the turret is more beneficial than cryo blast is ridiculous.

That's probably because you dont understand utility, or using a power to control game mechanics rather than damage. In the build in the video, the turret was great. If you rewatch you can see me hitting groups with tech combos and incinerate because they would all bunch up around the turret. The turret can also prime with flamethrower. He is a decoy you can throw. Makes her better vs Cerb and Geth. 

Its not just the turret though, rank 4, 5, and 6 of fitness combined with shield booster. 

Besides the fact that I still think the rhythm and use of incinerate 6b is better than the cryo combo anyways. 

*facepalm*

Yes, I don't understand the utility of it at all, that's why I'm willing to sacrifice fitness for putting all 6 points into it (even on a goddamn platinum solo) and have defended it for its very utility several times in the forums.

I'm not dellusional enough to consider it superior to Cryo Blast though, which oh snap, is also a power with great utility.

Anyway, I bow out of this thread by just quoting Deerber who clearly had the right idea...

Deerber wrote...

I really don't understand why people keep trying to argue with this guy.

Here, do like me:

Yes Dorick, this is the best build evar for the FQE. Congratulations.

Move on, folks.

[capn233]

Dorick wrote...

That's a very different playstyle where you give up power DPS for weapon DPS, since you are slowing your recharge. Also, now if cryo blast were to miss its target or get blocked, you will have to wait for both cryo blast cool downs before getting the debuff benefits, that's 6 seconds waiting time.

It is giving up one power's damage for more damage to everything else.  And since this centers around damage to armor, which armor targets are going to dodge Cryo Blast?  None where it matters a whole lot.  But it is besides the point, since in a vacuum they are as likely to dodge Cryo Blast as they are to dodge your first Incinerate.  It is completely moot.

You could always just use claymore and double incinerate, in fact, if the first shot from claymore is enough to take down shields like in your example, then it would follow that you could take your first shot, and then immediately get the tech combo while doing 6B DPS, which we've already seen is not too far off within the first 2 power moves

I have no idea what an actual in game example of such a target would be really.  This topic is centering around armored targets, and there aren't too many shielded armor targets that take a single Claymore shot to strip shields, and then would need two follow up Incinerates.  But if there were, it makes more sense to Chill with Cryo, shoot, then use Incinerate... which is faster than Claymore and two incinerates.

Most humanoid targets won't survive a Claymore + single incinerate, if they even survive a single Claymore.  Claymore X with weapon damage passive, mods, and Rail III has stat of 8000dmg per headshot... + ammo DOT.

No headshot it is still 2925 + DOT (894 w/ Incendiary IV)

ALSO, if you are talking about such large recharge times on powers, then that negates the one fair argument that you should be able to get multiple incinerates off of a single debuff. So you are actually losing DPS by bringing a heavy, harder hitting weapon.

I didn't personally make that argument.  But my number is based on no extra weight capacity in passive.  With the Claymore X you can reduce Incinerate's recharge to 4.32s if you go Capacity in Rank 4 passive, and then you could go Duration for Cryo if you are so concerned.  But note above that Claymore's damage is significantly higher than any power the QFE is going to be casting.  And every target you can one-shot significantly increases kill speed (which is what the ultimate end is).

If you don't like the Claymore, I could go Talon X and have a 1.64s CD on Cryo and 2.62s CD on Incinerate... but I don't see what that matters, the Cryo setup is even further ahead of the no Cryo setup in that instance.

Finally, people keep overlooking the fact that without cryo blast, you can spec full into fitness and turret. while maintining fairly good dps by constantly hitting targets with incinerate.

My Quarian has full fitness... I posted this on the first page.  What I don't have is a near useless power that is taking cooldowns away from CC / Debuff or damage.  You outright dismiss Cryo as useless in the first post and talk up Turret... that is the sticking point and why everyone has been arguing with you predominantly.

A lot of this is theoretical, its hard to apply every aspect of it to the real game. One of the things I like most about simply using incinerate is that it seems to kill things, instead of spending time setting up a debuff and trying to hit the same target. Can you imagine trying to hit a bomber with two powers in a row? especially with the heavy cool down of a claymore?? If that bomber doesnt dodge the first or second power, you still have a good chance of being forced to deal with another bomber, hunter, or possibly just missing your second shot. It doesnt matter when you go double incinerate, every shot keeps the same damage bonus.

You are making two declarations there:

A) 2 x Incinerate (armor) does more damage than Cryo + Incinerate (frozen), which is technically true
It is easier to hit the target with one power than two, which is technically true.

You cannot however use both at the same time to support your theory because if you argue B then you aren't going to be landing the 2x Incinerates in A at any greater rate than the Cryo + Incinerate.  And since total cooldown time is longer, you get less attempts anyway.

Additionally, there are not targets large enough to need multiple casts that are going to dodge all these powers.  Most of the ones that dodge a lot will die to your weapon if you shoot them in the head.

also, it is totally relevant that incinerate triggers in the solo, because it allows you to shoot with incediary rounds, then trigger. Shoot, incinerate combo, shoot, incinerate combo. No cryo blast to detract from either of those.

You said trigger and prime.  The priming is not relevant whatsoever.  And the point you are missing is that debuffing with Cryo makes that same combo do more damage the first time.  If you think  you are going to rapidly chain fire explosions with just shooting and Incinerate, then I would have to ask you to try it.  You cannot immediately reprime a burning target with Incendiary Ammo for another FE.  This was pointed out on the last page by Zjarcal.

Spamming Incinerate repeatedly as opposed to Cryo / Incinerate would only be beneficial from a pure combo standpoint in a team game where there is someone else with a different direct damage power to set it off for you.  But in a team game the benefit of global debuff trumps that.

Run turret if you want though and have fun.  But you shouldn't mischaracterize the damage output of the other setup as a justification.

Modifié par capn233, 11 avril 2013 - 12:01 .

[Dorick]

@capn.
I'm not going to try and quote our mess. I'll do my best to keep the points in order.

1: Armored targets that dodge: Pyro, Bomber, Dragoon. Armored targets that block: Banshee, Praetorian. Since a lot of the combo damage from the debuff depends on landing cryo blast, you are losing out on the DPS from both your weapon and incinerate when your move gets blocked/dodged. I used dbl incinerate as an example to show dps after a succession of two moves, this is what would be similar to the cryo blast combo. Cast by cast, you do the same rate of DPS with incinerate when you take 6b, since the 50% is inherent to the power. Meaning if the first incinerate gets dodged, the second one will hit with the full bonus. Whereas with cryo blast, if the cryo blast is dodged, you need to try and cryo blast again, if the incinerate is dodged but not the cryo blast, you've still done zero DPS. In a match centered around casting a lock debuff that does 0 damage up front, that's very distruptive to the rhythm of your playstyle.

2: Here's an example. Instead of going for cryo blast, you can start out by shooting a pyro, and if its still alive, you finish it with incinerate, then you can quickly move onto the next pyro. Since your powers are on cooldown, you shoot the nearby bomber to take its shields, at the end of your shot, incinerate is back, and you finish it off. Cryo blast would be inefficient in both of those situations, and would be extremely cumbersome if that cryo blast missed the target. Its at that point that I start scratching my head, wondering why I tried to use cryo blast in the first place.

3: Your point with the talon is fair, but Im not convinced to take 6 ranks into cryo blast, bc it counters an argument concerning the claymore and cooldown, not the main argument of the cryo blast combo vs constant incinerates.

4: We will just have to disagree on the turret then. If you rewatch the video, you can clearly see the turret take aggro over and over. Besides that, I think cryo blast creates a gameplay style that makes you dependent on using the debuff, which is unrealistic in comparison to just casting incinerate twice. Yes, you might get extra weapon damage, but you risk wasting time not getting the debuff at all, and its unrealistic to want to debuff every target. Also, incinerate primes and triggers every single time it lands, Also since you will be using incinerate more often if you skip cryo, you get more opportunities to hit groups with the power, which would make its dps and DoT multiplicative times the number of enemies affected. if cryo blast could prime armor, Id swith sides.

5. I already explained this in point #1, the incinerates that took armor damage get the bonus without needing a setup. This means the DPS stays constant, so yea, I can argue a and b at the same time. If I land one armor bonus incinerate, it does more damage than just cryo blast. If I land one armor bonus incinerate, it does more damage than an incinerate that didnt get the cryo blast bonus.

6: Since a lot of the arguments about cryo blast revolve around it being good for the team, I do bring up that incinerate always primes as a counter. Not only is that damage to everyone affected by it, but its a good stagger too.

Now, as for triggering explosions, I dont need to focus on setting off explosions on the same target, do I? I can hit one target with the fire explosion and move onto the next target without having to debuff it before I start doing good damage, and then I can set off the explosion right away. Besides that, my target is probably almost dead anyways, and the next incinerate will probably finish it off. If by the end of one incinerate recharge, I had to use cryo blast instead of another incinerate, I think its fair to say I could easily be missing out on an explosion at that point.

The global debuff is good if you get all your teammates shooting one target, which is obviously unrealistic. With priming/triggering, you only need one teammate.

I didnt mischaracterize the damage output. Besides that, its not about pure DPS either, its about the gameplay itself, the rhythm, and oppourtunity in the actual match. As Ive said before, its very unrealistic to think you are going to debuff every target and successfully incinerate that debuffed target. More than likely you are going to miss, get block/dodged, or have to retreat. If that's the case, it only makes those 6 ranks of cryo blast less usefull.

Modifié par Dorick, 11 avril 2013 - 02:44 .

[LegionofRannoch]

eh

[Crimson Vanguard]

Remember everyone. OP thinks that the Lancer is garbage.

Modifié par Crimson Vanguard, 11 avril 2013 - 03:03 .

[Dorick]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Remember everyone. OP thinks that the Lancer is garbage.

Oh boy, lets start a new debate. Its not the worst gun, I just dont see why I would take it over the hurricane. Or the PPR if I need an ammoless weapon. 

[Dorick]

btw capn, its been nice arguing about this with you, since you mostly just reason about the facts, instead of getting offensive and attacking me personally.

[mackfactor]

Another thread where the OP is positive that he's right and everyone else is wrong. I love these.

Anyone know if the Freeze Combo damage is additive or multiplicative?

[LegionofRannoch]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Remember everyone. OP thinks that the Lancer is garbage.

was gunna compliment him on his preferred build but..yea..dat solo...

so i was just like "eh"

[capn233]

Dorick wrote...

@capn.
I'm not going to try and quote our mess. I'll do my best to keep the points in order.

1.  Pryo, Bomber, and Dragoon: depends heavily on your weapon choice.  And of course usually you can get them to go into predictable animations simply by shooting them.  Or carry a weapon that can one-shot them.

Banshees and Praetorian power block is completely irrelevant as far a discussion of Cyo-Incinerate vs Incinerate armor because they don't block cryo any more than they block incinerate.  Especially on Praetorians that are bubble happy anyway... they likely are going to bubble whenever you try your first incinerate so it is moot.  Once you get them to drop the bubble, you can resume powers.  This also leads back to the point about taking decent weapons... shoot the crab in its head with the Claymore a time or two and stagger it back.  Then go into your Cryo / Incinerate combo.

On any other armored target there is no dodging and no gimmicks.  Ravager, Brute, Prime, Atlas... you are going to do more damage with Cryo-Incinerate.

I also don't agree that Cryo debuff is disruptive.  It is simple "this power then that power" which everyone has been using on nearly every character.

2. Your example here actually illustrates something I was alluding to above.  On those lower tier units you can largely get away with a shot-incinerate-shot which depends partially on weapon.  Also largely the last rank of Incinearte is irrelevant on them since they don't have enough HP for it to matter.

3. Claymore reference was to say that cooldowns were fine with a gun that has encumbrance of 2.0.  You can get the freeze combo without taking extra duration on Cryo.  Is DPS lower on larger targets, maybe.  But you don't have to dick around with combos on all the lower tier enemies.  And the extra weapon damage you get from the debuff makes up the difference relative to Incinerate x 2 anyway.

The point of the lighter weapon example is to point out that Claymore didn't invalidate anything comparing the two builds.  If you go Talon you can easily do Cryo-Incinerate-Incinerate without taking duration.  This also does not repudiate anything I said about weapon damage... Talon does good damage and it will also be buffed by Cryo.  Despite the cult, Claymore isn't the pinacle of power to weight in the game after all.

4. I suppose we will have to.  I think most of the pets are exceedingly poor after the nerf.  Additionally, it is not important to me that the turret takes a little bit of the enemies attention because it doesn't counter balance Cryo's ability to CC and importantly kill more targets faster (which is the ultimate CC).

And you keep talking about unrealistic playstyles... it isn't any harder to cast Cryo on a target than Incinerate.  It isn't difficult to know when you need to debuff and when you can simply shoot+incinerate.  It is unrealistic to debuff every target, but you absolutely do not have to debuff them all.  You don't even need to incinerate all of them really.  You don't have to spam a power on every unit.  That is why you have a gun.

As for priming and detonating, that doesn't happen with respect to Fire Explosions.  I don't know what you are even talking about.  You can't detonate and prime for the same combo type with a single power (with the exception of the Justicar's bubble).  The QFE also doesn't have anything to detonate the fire explosion Incinerate sets up so there is no point in saying Incinerate primes anything.  Unless you are in a team game... at which point Cryo's global debuff against bosses becomes more valuable by an order of magnitude.

I can prime armor with an ammo power, I don't need to wait around and hope that turret can survive long enough to decide to use the flamethrower on an armored unit so I might get a fire explosion.  I will take the debuff / cc every time.

5.  It absolutely is not constant if they dodge the power.  You keep complaining that it is hard to land Cryo and Incinerate with some talk about dodging, but they are just as likely to dodge your incinerate.

Yeah landing one armor bonus incinerate does more damage than one frozen vulnerability incinerate with no Cryo, but why I am even firing the incinerate if Cryo missed if I wasn't already confident that my weapon fire and one incinerate would kill the target?  You wouldn't.  As for having to recast Cryo, largely every target that can dodge doesn't even need to be hit with two powers so it doesn't even make sense to bring this up.

The large targets where the damage difference is relevant do not dodge.

6. You should pick one.  If talking team, then Cryo is 10000 times better as a global debuff.  The frozen build also can prime fire explosions.

As for "always primes" I don't know what you are talking about.  It doesn't always prime anymore than the other evolution of Incinerate.  It also doesn't detonate and prime in a single cast unless you are talking about detonating tech bursts and priming fire explosions.  Which the other version of Incinerate also does.

You don't need to debuff the small targets... armor evolution doesn't even do any extra damage on them.  You are right, they are probably dead... the difference is the damage to the big targets where the Cryo build does a whole lot more.

It is more than likely that any large target worth debuffing will get fire from more than just you.  Especially if your team has any sense whatsoever.

[Curzyfish]

Dorick wrote...

Curzyfish wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Wow, so many critics. I guess video evidence that a build works really well isnt enough.

A build working well doesn't mean it can't work better with an extra power at your disposal.

Or that just as you say you don't find cryo blast useful, others (myself included) don't find the extra fitness useful.

With the extra fitness, the prime needs two shots to break your full shields. That means the third shot will only bring you down to the health gate. I found the extra health very advantageous. Dont need cryo blast, just shoot incinerate twice. 

You were using a cylo 4 and shield gear 5.  The prime would have needed the same amount of shots to bring you down to health gate whether you had full fitness or 0 fitness.

No, it was cyclo 1, I only use level 1 equipment in these vids. 

Ah, well i guess that's valid in that case.  Still, I'm never making a build based around a cyclo 1.

EDIT I would also like to point out, that pyro's only occasionally dodge, and dragoons almost NEVER dodge powers.  They pretty much always dodge after taking a hit from a weapon though, so you simply shoot them then follow up with your power.   Bombers are annoying.

Modifié par Curzyfish, 11 avril 2013 - 06:03 .

[Titus Thongger]

Worst FQE build I've ever seen

[Tortugueta]

Deerber wrote...

Dorick wrote...

The build is at the end of the demonstration

Its a weapon build designed to make use of the quarian ADAS rifle. 

I'm not a fan of cryo blast, since it doesnt prime armor, and doesnt do any of its damage up front, so I skipped in favor of fitness, then I added a shield booster and cyclonic mod. This was very helpful during the solo. Most of the mooks died pretty fast just using incinerate, I think using cryo blast wouldve just taken me longer.

The turret was actually pretty helpful specced for shock and flamethrower. 

Quarian Female Engineer

Stopped reading here, sorry.

I have to agree. Cryoblast is just too good to skip.

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

Titus Thongger wrote...

Worst FQE build I've ever seen

I'm inclined to agree. If anything should be skipped, it should be the turret (I happen to like it).

Cryo blast is one of my personal favourites.

[Cyonan]

For your Sentry Turret, Flamethrower is a DPS loss against an armoured target, because it causes the main gun to not fire and the main gun is the only thing that benefits from AP Rounds.

As for Cryo Blast, Incinerate spam doesn't do more DPS than a CB -> Incinerate rotation(assuming you're switching Armour Damage out for Freeze Combo), not even against an armoured target.

Also, your target being able to dodge CB is a poor argument when they can also dodge Incinerate.

[Deerber]

mackfactor wrote...

Another thread where the OP is positive that he's right and everyone else is wrong. I love these.

Anyone know if the Freeze Combo damage is additive or multiplicative?

I know, right? They're the best threads around when it comes to have a good laugh :happy:

Oh and Freeze Combo is multiplicative of the entire damage. It multiplies the damage *2. Quite potent.

LegionofRannoch wrote...

eh

LMAO. Best comment in the thread! 

[Dorick]

I have college and work all day, will address arguments as soon as I can.

[Miniditka77]

Dorick wrote...

Fair enough. But that requires you get the chance to successfully fire three powers in a row on the same target within that time frame, which is if you are familiar with platinum is unlikely unless you are safely fighting a boss.
Im also going to bet right off the bat that the dps is still pretty close between these two setups. My main argument is that when you go with constant incinerate, you get the same dps per hit, no need to setup your target. You dont need to spec up to rank 6 into a move thats only used to prep another move. And I already mentioned that I didnt calculate the extra gun damage bc I dont calculate the extra damage from a tech combo. 

Cryo blast is not "only used to prep another move."  As said before, it increases ALL damage to the target.  And I don't know why you wouldn't figure in weapon damage.  You're not just arguing Incinerate damage, you're trying to justify not using Cryo Blast.  And everyone and their brother is telling you that you are going to do more overall damage if you use Cryo Blast.  Ignoring weapon damage just makes your argument look bad.

Also, the "three powers" argument actually cuts against you.  If the first Cryo Blast misses, you can fire another one in 1.5 seconds, and then Incinerate for the 100% bonus damage in a total of 5.5 seconds (including the Incinerate cooldown). 

Double incinerate takes 5 seconds and is just as likely to be dodged as Cryo Blast.  If only the second Incinerate hits, you are doing half the damage in only 0.5 seconds less time.  

Also, there is one other thing that hasn't been mentioned.   Most of the enemies that can dodge on higher difficulties are shielded.  As you also know, Incinerate does half damage against shields, so your first hit is going to do minimal damage.  By using Cryo first, the damage bonus makes it easier to drop the enemy's shields before using your Incinerate.

Modifié par Miniditka77, 11 avril 2013 - 07:55 .