237 réponses à ce sujet

[frayjog]

Charsen wrote...



Now, IRL? I don't believe in good or evil but I also do not believe in demons. In the game setting though, it's a fact of life.

You touched on this earlier in your post, but what exactly makes the demon's point of view evil in-game?  That they want to destroy humanity?  Why is the destruction of humanity evil?  (This is speaking from a purely objective point of view.  Of course to the player character, this would be evil.)

[Charsen]

frayjog wrote...

Charsen wrote...



Now, IRL? I don't believe in good or evil but I also do not believe in demons. In the game setting though, it's a fact of life.

You touched on this earlier in your post, but what exactly makes the demon's point of view evil in-game?  That they want to destroy humanity?  Why is the destruction of humanity evil?  (This is speaking from a purely objective point of view.  Of course to the player character, this would be evil.)

Yes, I think so, anyway. From a human's point of view, that ultimately creates a conflict where only one may exist - so humans view demons as evil even though it's simply the demon's nature to wish to destroy humanity. But visa versa, you have the demons that wish to enter the material world. Any mage entering the Fade is then an intruder and a combatant, and so it's like a human Blight upon the Fade. Though the humans have never organized it as such. (Or did they? I can't recall if the Black City(?) was in the Fade?)

I suppose it would have to come down to what the Maker designed to be evil. Since demons are incapable of change and humans are incapable of stagnation - in a purely spiritual/philosophical, mental and material nature - I would suppose you could also define "evil" as anything that is more or less a force of nature - a constant, whereby humans are variables and cannot be defined by any one thing but that.

But yeah, from a player perspective, I guess it would be just... cuz the Maker said so, maybe. 

[ObserverStatus]

Of course blood magic is evil, you trade the soul of a child to a stripper demon to learn it.

[frayjog]

Charsen wrote...

Yes, I think so, anyway. From a human's point of view, that ultimately creates a conflict where only one may exist - so humans view demons as evil even though it's simply the demon's nature to wish to destroy humanity. But visa versa, you have the demons that wish to enter the material world. Any mage entering the Fade is then an intruder and a combatant, and so it's like a human Blight upon the Fade. Though the humans have never organized it as such. (Or did they? I can't recall if the Black City(?) was in the Fade?)

I suppose it would have to come down to what the Maker designed to be evil. Since demons are incapable of change and humans are incapable of stagnation - in a purely spiritual/philosophical, mental and material nature - I would suppose you could also define "evil" as anything that is more or less a force of nature - a constant, whereby humans are variables and cannot be defined by any one thing but that.

But yeah, from a player perspective, I guess it would be just... cuz the Maker said so, maybe. 

I can appreciate that point of view. 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that demons have as much right to want to destroy humans as humans have to want to destroy demons.  The only information we have on the Maker is from the perspective of humans who have written about him(her?).  Who's to say that demons weren't also created by the Maker for the sole purpose of maintaining a balance?  Of course demons are made out to be evil and monstrous when the only information we have on them is from the point of view of their enemies.

Maybe demons see humans as the real demons.  Maybe Thedas is supposed to be their world, and humans are an evil presence inhabiting it.  The thing is we don't know.  No one knows anything except what they conceive as reality.

Now these may not be my personal viewpoints, but I can understand that my "truths" may not have any truth to them at all.

[Wonderllama4]

using other people's blood to power your spells is evil, yes

[Charsen]

frayjog wrote...
I can appreciate that point of view. 

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that demons have as much right to want to destroy humans as humans have to want to destroy demons.  The only information we have on the Maker is from the perspective of humans who have written about him(her?).  Who's to say that demons weren't also created by the Maker for the sole purpose of maintaining a balance?  Of course demons are made out to be evil and monstrous when the only information we have on them is from the point of view of their enemies.

Maybe demons see humans as the real demons.  Maybe Thedas is supposed to be their world, and humans are an evil presence inhabiting it.  The thing is we don't know.  No one knows anything except what they conceive as reality.

Now these may not be my personal viewpoints, but I can understand that my "truths" may not have any truth to them at all.

I think we agree, more or less - who knows? So from the only information we have, the only conclusion a human can draw is that a demon is evil and therefore its offerings are too. Maybe a blood mage is a link between the two, and so a maleficarum can understand the demon's point of view as well as the human's. Kind of an interesting concept, really, because they would have the only viewpoint of both aside from the divine. Interesting implications then..

But yes, I mean, this is all total speculation, but I love to talk about it anyway. It's a really great discussion here. 

[Red Frostraven]

Wonderllama4 wrote...

using other people's blood to power your spells is evil, yes

And using other people's blood to live is surely evil too?

...
...
Those blood donors are really a bunch of wicked folk, aren't they?
Ooooor can blood serve good, when used for a good cause?

Demons are said to be evil. But who are saying they are evil?
Demons are for humans what humans are for cattle.
They eat humans and use dead humans for decorations and experiments.
Not all spirits are that wicked, however.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 02 mars 2010 - 09:51 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Charsen wrote...

frayjog wrote...

Charsen wrote...



Now, IRL? I don't believe in good or evil but I also do not believe in demons. In the game setting though, it's a fact of life.

You touched on this earlier in your post, but what exactly makes the demon's point of view evil in-game?  That they want to destroy humanity?  Why is the destruction of humanity evil?  (This is speaking from a purely objective point of view.  Of course to the player character, this would be evil.)

Yes, I think so, anyway. From a human's point of view, that ultimately creates a conflict where only one may exist - so humans view demons as evil even though it's simply the demon's nature to wish to destroy humanity. But visa versa, you have the demons that wish to enter the material world. Any mage entering the Fade is then an intruder and a combatant, and so it's like a human Blight upon the Fade. Though the humans have never organized it as such. (Or did they? I can't recall if the Black City(?) was in the Fade?)

I suppose it would have to come down to what the Maker designed to be evil. Since demons are incapable of change and humans are incapable of stagnation - in a purely spiritual/philosophical, mental and material nature - I would suppose you could also define "evil" as anything that is more or less a force of nature - a constant, whereby humans are variables and cannot be defined by any one thing but that.

But yeah, from a player perspective, I guess it would be just... cuz the Maker said so, maybe. 

I don't think I'd say demons are evil by nature. They seem to be spirits that have grown envious of people living in the world with bodies of their own. They seem to want to see our world as we do. Perhaps some of them existing for so long in a place like that has made them angry. But I wouldn't say they are inherently evil.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

bobobo878 wrote...

Of course blood magic is evil, you trade the soul of a child to a stripper demon to learn it.

While blood magic is taught by demons I'm sure people who know those talents could have easily taught this to others. So it may not be necessary for every mage to make a deal with a demon to learn it.

[dragonsouce]

Charsen wrote...

Blood magic is more evil than a sword because.... you don't have to deal with a demon to get a sword, and you don't have to kill someone to get a sword.

two things to consider, one Not all demons are evil. Second you could learn blood magic from anther Blood mage although not a Pc option. Heck the first blood Mage you meet in the mage origin is a bloodmage who never even went to a the fade nor met a Demon, He read a BOOK! That you can not get your self as the head mage took it out of the student library a little late.A very evil thing to left around or a incredably stupid thing to of left around.

Modifié par dragonsouce, 08 mars 2010 - 02:22 .

[thegreateski]

Is blood magic evil?

No . . . . . . . dammit.

Modifié par thegreateski, 08 mars 2010 - 06:25 .

[Jace Surana]

dragonsouce wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Blood magic is more evil than a sword because.... you don't have to deal with a demon to get a sword, and you don't have to kill someone to get a sword.

two things to consider, one Not all demons are evil. Second you could learn blood magic from anther Blood mage although not a Pc option. Heck the first blood Mage you meet in the mage origin is a bloodmage who never even went to a the fade nor met a Demon, He read a BOOK! That you can not get your self as the head mage took it out of the student library a little late.A very evil thing to left around or a incredably stupid thing to of left around.

^^ This. So very this.

Excellent post.

[Atranes]

Blood magic has a bad rep with the Chantry because of the story about the Black City. Not sure I buy the story about the origin of the Black City.



Frankly, what confuses me most about Blood Magic is that demons teach it. Indeed, according to the Chantry they are the first teachers (sort-of-confirmed by Avernus). After all, demons (and all Fade creatures) don't have blood.



Rather, for me, blood magic seems more _primal_ than other magic. There are many acts of primal magic in the game that characters (including mages) will comment on as being blood magic or like blood magic, but they are cast by people who have made no devil pacts or use other blood magic (can't go into them as this is the no-spoiler forum). In that light, it only makes sense for the Chantry and other "civilizing" influences to fear the primal, raw nature of blood magic. Given that the Chantry controls the lyrium trade, it makes even more sense for it to fear a source of magic that eludes its control.



Oh well, there's enough "blood magic comes from demons" evidence in the game (like Avernus) that there's probably some connection. Like others in this thread, I don't believe all "demons" are necessarily evil, or that a demonic source makes blood magic "evil." Frankly, I'd most like to see an expansion of Avernus's research (but more on that would require a move to the spoiler forum probably).