237 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarielle]

kj9364 wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Are guns evil?

Same principal applies. :B

Not exactly, as guns don't require a life to work, nor do they give you any sort of mind control or force you to consort with demons...

Okay. Say you're a bloodmage/spirit healer combo. You sacrifice part of your own life to heal your fellows. Is it still evil?

I could see a "for the greater good" type making a deal with a demon to then use that power to fight the darkspawn.

[kj9364]

True, I get the greater good thing but one justification can't make up for the rest in my opinion.
Besides dosnt blood magic typically require another life?

Modifié par kj9364, 16 janvier 2010 - 12:50 .

[.Raven.rpg]

Sarielle wrote...

kj9364 wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

Are guns evil?

Same principal applies. :B

Not exactly, as guns don't require a life to work, nor do they give you any sort of mind control or force you to consort with demons...

Okay. Say you're a bloodmage/spirit healer combo. You sacrifice part of your own life to heal your fellows. Is it still evil?

I could see a "for the greater good" type making a deal with a demon to then use that power to fight the darkspawn.

You know
Evil is always easier
Why to bother fighting darkspawn when you can simply use blood magic
why to travel to mage tower to ask for help when you can simply let Jowan do the blood magic ritual

There are always choices

[kj9364]

Heh, well it is easier but that doesn't make it right  But yes, it is always a choice

[.Raven.rpg]

As Alistar would say

"two evil doesn"t make good"

[Sarielle]

kj9364 wrote...



True, I get the greater good thing but one justification can't make up for the rest in my opinion.

Besides dosnt blood magic typically require another life?

Possibly. I didn't unlock it on my mage because it would have been out of character for her.



And again...let one person die in a blood magic ritual to then save an entire country possibly...? Not saying I'd choose it either, but I don't see it as a black and white issue.

[Mighty peon]

 Concering Popes, let me share the following joke:

1944
A young German Soldier is leading a ragged looking Polish Partisan to his execution.
Suddenly, an Angel appears.
"Stop!" Shouts the Angel, "Let the Polish Partisan go!".
"But why should I do that?" Awnsers the young German
"Because the Polish Partisan will become the Pope!" Exlcaims the Angel.
"And why would I care about that?" Inquires the German.
"Because," the Angel claims, "you will become the next one after him."!
"DEAL!" 

Considering the Topic:

I would say Blood Magic turns evil as soon as you use the Blood of other persons who do not volunteer.
A character (who is a Blood Mage) Whom I am currently trying to craft (not gotten the grist of that editor yet) has excatly that kind of line when talking about a certain ritual that can be used to get into the fade.

[kj9364]

True, very few things are just black and white

[The Capital Gaultier]

.Raven.rpg wrote...

You know
Evil is always easier
Why to bother fighting darkspawn when you can simply use blood magic
why to travel to mage tower to ask for help when you can simply let Jowan do the blood magic ritual

There are always choices

Blood Magic isn't simpler nor easier.

[errant_knight]

Well, I think it is. The NPC blood mages seem to use other people's blood instead of their own, and feel just fine about sacrificing others to gain power. I have to wonder if it's only the PC who can use their own health to power spells. Even it the's not the case, my personal opinion is that it's not an acceptable way to power magic unless you're playing a character for whom good and evil are pretty fluid.

[Sarielle]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, I think it is. The NPC blood mages seem to use other people's blood instead of their own, and feel just fine about sacrificing others to gain power. I have to wonder if it's only the PC who can use their own health to power spells. Even it the's not the case, my personal opinion is that it's not an acceptable way to power magic unless you're playing a character for whom good and evil are pretty fluid.

Again...even if you use your own blood? I'm genuinely curious


EDIT: I honestly don't see it as being any worse than, yanno...burning people to death and such.

Modifié par Sarielle, 16 janvier 2010 - 01:33 .

[beancounter501]

Generally, in most fantasy literature any magic that requires blood or life force to power it is considered evil. It also normally extremely powerful. Sound kind of familar?



But rationalize it however you want.

[Sarielle]

beancounter501 wrote...

Generally, in most fantasy literature any magic that requires blood or life force to power it is considered evil. It also normally extremely powerful. Sound kind of familar?

But rationalize it however you want.

Just because "most fantasy literature" follows a certain theme doesn't necessarily make it so. Heck, most fantasy literature is pretty bad.

[Demonic Spoon]

Well, I think it is. The NPC blood mages seem to use other people's blood instead of their own, and feel just fine about sacrificing others to gain power. I have to wonder if it's only the PC who can use their own health to power spells. Even it the's not the case, my personal opinion is that it's not an acceptable way to power magic unless you're playing a character for whom good and evil are pretty fluid.

Jowan uses his own blood to escape the tower. He stabs himself in the hand to escape the templars.



how is it an unacceptable way to power magic?

[maxernst]

"Magic has no color, only uses" says a wizard in The Innkeeper's Song, but I think it's morally justifiable only if you're shedding your own blood or others who are willing to shed it. But I get the feeling that that's not how most blood mages operate...



The parallel of necromancy is an interesting one, because it's often viewed as unalterably evil. But while some necromancy spell effects certainly should be viewed as evil, I don't see why animating zombies and skeletons is evil. Objectively speaking, moving a dead body around by magic doesn't seem to me any more morally objectionable than moving around a table.

[beancounter501]

Please reread my last line.



Morailty is funny thing, everybody can find a way to rationalize their evil deeds. Even the mass murders. Within the game all of the Blood Mages are portrayed as evil.



I guess at the end of the day you *could* be a good blood mage. Someone who only used the lifeforce of a willing person or themselves and only used the magic for justice. Afterall it is only a tool. But in fantasy literature there are lots of bad tools out there, like Elric and Stormbringer. But you are free to write your own story in this game. One of the reasons why I love Bioware games over say Bethesda(Which I still like! But for different reasons).



Why the hate on fantasy literature? Sure some of it is cheesy, but as genre I think it is great. Sure beats reading some dumb book about who slept with who or who said what.

[Sarielle]

beancounter501 wrote...

Please reread my last line.

Actually, I wasn't really sure what you meant by that. Thanks for clarifying.

Why the hate on fantasy literature? Sure some of it is cheesy, but as genre I think it is great. Sure beats reading some dumb book about who slept with who or who said what.

I don't read romance novels either. I'm more of a murder mystery fan myself.

There IS some good fantasy literature...I'm a big fan of the George R.R. Martin stuff actually, because the people are so believable. But there's just as much bad fantasy literature as the bad romance stuff you listed.

[Azure Zero]

Don't read if you haven't done mage origin or redcliffe section. Not in a spoiler section not direct plot spoilers but none the less.

Who is to say the blood magic tomes Jowan had dabbled in weren't set up similar to D&D books. For example.

"Jowan reads the following.
Gateway to the Fade: The Blood Magic Way
[spell description, hand motions, words of power, steps etc]
Components: 1 Full Life Force. For instructions on dividing the life force amongst multiple participates to avoid fatalities see Appendix B in the Blood Magic: Alternative Rituals Guide.

*hears footsteps approaching*

Jowan puts the tome back on the shelf and scurries away and never had the chance to read how the other ritual was performed. Goes back later to see all the blood magic books have been removed from the library."

And as the general consensus states, Depends on the end user as to how it is used.

Modifié par Azure Zero, 16 janvier 2010 - 02:25 .

[TurokDarkstar]

I suppose if I took a morally ambiguous viewpoint (i.e. in the eye of the beholder) I would agree that blood magic is just as wicked as a firearm is. Though I happen to think some practices are just universally evil and in keeping with the lore, I've yet to come across a blood mage that either had a strong sense of morality or that hadn't succumbed to evil passions or desires. By its very nature the practice is corrupting, its requires both the mutilation of flesh and the spilling of what is arguably the very essence of life. I wouldn't even consider the notion that the sacrifice of one justifies the many, so that leaves just my characters life. Depending on the situation I would take two attitudes. Firstly, if I was just dabbling or experimenting, mutilating my body is self disrespecting, unhealthy and dangerous. Secondly, if the situation was absolutely dire and self sacrifice was the only option that brought about a victory or positive outcome, it would just be fueling the spiral of evil. Fighting fire with fire.

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

Modifié par TurokDarkstar, 16 janvier 2010 - 03:05 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

TurokDarkstar wrote...

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

This keeps coming up and it really should not.  Blood Magic is not easier.  There's a phrase for this type of unsupported conclusion - non sequitur.

Now, say if there were a scenario in the game where you could mind control Loghain and have him commit a murder/suicide with Howe, then yes, it would be easier.  But it just ain't so.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 16 janvier 2010 - 03:19 .

[Klystron]

but ... but ... blood magic is evil, because ... because you can make somebody do whatever you want them to!!!!  for a whole 20 seconds!!!!!!!  that's long enough to make them do ... *blush* ... really naughty things!!!!  or so they tell me, here in the chantry...

[soteria]

Sheesh, Frozeal, can you post without bringing your personal religious beliefs up?



As for the OP, I would say that it's not inherently evil, although it does lend itself more easily to abuse than some other forms of magic.

[owl208]

Hmm. I think I can cut to the chase. What powers blood magic? blood. Is blood in and of itself evil? Is blood in and of itself good? What exactly is blood? Again, I make the point that it is matter. You must separate usage/application from the object as it were. What else powers blood magic....magic? lyrium? Again are these good or evil, in and of themselves? I think not. Yet they can be corrupted or divined, could they not? Something then was added or subtracted to make them this way, no? To alter them? But what are they in their natural state?

To say that an object is evil or good is to apply a standard to something that does not recognize your value system. It simply is. It exists with its properties regardless of your attempts to categorize it morally and lets face it good/evil is a moral observation, unless good means it isn't harmful to you and that is a physical observation. So now we start delving into the nature of existance...physical and spiritual, multidimentional, etc.

Again, keeping it simple, the sheer existance of blood magic is not evil or good, it just is.  So the question is if blood is pure and magic is pure, then what needs to be added to create a moral component that alters this status? And there is your answer.

Modifié par owl208, 16 janvier 2010 - 04:31 .

[Urazz]

I'd say the lower levels of it can be okay to use if you are just using your own blood to fuel your spells like Jowan did in the mage origin but the higher levels that require someone else's blood is evil and summoning demons with it is incredibly stupid.