237 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Starcrunchy wrote...

To be honest I started this game I thought I was going to make a blood mage and then use that power for the good of all, but in the end after playing through the game it was impossible for me to follow through on it. Every single blood mage we meet in this game is ruined by this power. They've either slid into doing incredibly distasteful things, or are completely out of their mind. I have no love of the Chantry but it's difficult, from an objective standpoint, not to see their point when it comes to blood magic. I'm sorry but as I go through this game and see blood mage after blood mage whose story ends in tears, no matter how just or noble their goal may have been, it would be an act of unimaginable hubris to believe that I would be different.

Odd. My Blood Mage story seemed to end just fine, because he used his abilities purely in defence of the realm.

Look at what happens to Jowan. IT wasn't blood magic that ruined him. It was the Chantry's reponse to it. Hell, he only even called upon Blood Magic when the well-being of his girlfriend was threatened by fanatical bible-basher who didn't even truely know Jowan practiced it.

Any point that the Chantry makes on magic should really be treated with a pinch of salt - they don't really understand it to the degree the Mages do, yet they've put themselves in charge of it. Their entire practice of policing it tends to illustrate their whole mindset - any Mage that isn't under their direct control, and even the Templars assigned exercise that control, is evil and horrible and must be hunted down. *That* is unimaginable hubris. What exactly gives them the right to do this?

Put bluntly, the oppressed always become the oppressors given time. IT happens in the real world, it happened with Ferelden, it happened with the Andrastian Chantry and it will happen with the Circle.

Also I'll point out to the people who talk about the greater good of sacrificing 1 person to save 100 and so on and so forth that that only become defensible if the sacrifice of the 1 person is the *only* way to save the 100 people. Using one person to fuel my blood magic when I have other options doesn't strike me as acceptable. On the other hand I do agree that the first blood mage power where you use your own life force to power spells is possibly a noble sacrifice.

And what happens if said Blood Mage refuses to use any blood but their own? Are they still evil by default? And the Templars that hunt down innocent people and don't even draw a distinction between apostates and Blood Mages are all paragons of virtue, right?

On another point working blood magic is not a thing and thus is different from a tool (and different than a gun). Blood magic itself can be described as akin to a tool but the process of working blood magic is not akin to the tool itself, it's an action by taken by a sentient being. It is not therefore inherently ethnically neutral to cast a blood magic spell. Blood magic only retains its neutrality while the process and effects are being study, i.e. while it is simply knowledge but when a spell is cast this defense goes out the window as it is now like the action of using a gun which is not necessarily ethically neutral. Now none of this paragraph is meant to say their are no ethical uses of blood magic, just to point out that it's use cannot be defended in the same way you defend the ethics of your hammer, it instead must be defended in the same ethical framework a person defends their actions in.

I'm not sure where you're pulling all these arbitrary decisions from. If I cast blood wound on an innocent person, that is clearly an evil act. However, if I stab them with a sword or shoot them with a lightning bolt, it's still an evil act. The fact I used blood magic in the first instance is not relevant. I attacked an innocent person. *That* is what is important, not how I did it.

[Bratinov]

Master Katarn says: abilities are not inherently good or evil, it's how you use them

Modifié par Bratinov, 16 janvier 2010 - 10:50 .

[Vendicatorbluf]

Frozeal wrote...

Also, Gray Wardens don't have a philosophy of the end justify the means, for example they are supposed to be politically neutral (although as you can see in Warden's Peek it hasn't be that way, also *spoiler* it's obvious that Duncan was also interested in messing up in politics *end spoilers*
Blood magic is just that, primal magic can do more instant harm than blood magic... tempest of the century to the ships that are carrying medicine, blizzard to the crops... just think of it.

Actually your wrong. about them not having a End justifies the means, Policy, its mentioned MORE then once through out the game, and as you pointed out about the wardens peek, the mage there also calls it the CORE principle, do so what ever it takes and use what the means to defeat the dark spawns.

Also more then once through the game do you during convesation have the option to say something very similar to that.

[TurokDarkstar]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

This keeps coming up and it really should not.  Blood Magic is not easier.  There's a phrase for this type of unsupported conclusion - non sequitur.

Now, say if there were a scenario in the game where you could mind control Loghain and have him commit a murder/suicide with Howe, then yes, it would be easier.  But it just ain't so.

Are we talking about mechanics or lore?

[The Capital Gaultier]

TurokDarkstar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

This keeps coming up and it really should not.  Blood Magic is not easier.  There's a phrase for this type of unsupported conclusion - non sequitur.

Now, say if there were a scenario in the game where you could mind control Loghain and have him commit a murder/suicide with Howe, then yes, it would be easier.  But it just ain't so.

Are we talking about mechanics or lore?

The story.  There's no way to ease your way through it by using Blood Magic.  As such, it would be the writers' fiat that the Grey Warden not use it in such a way, for whatever reason.  I'm not saying it's not a good shortcut for solving problems given unlimited freedom (obviously, it would be).  However, for the purpose at hand it is no easier to prevail using Blood Magic than other methods.

[Frozeal]

Vendicatorbluf wrote...

Frozeal wrote...

Also, Gray Wardens don't have a philosophy of the end justify the means, for example they are supposed to be politically neutral (although as you can see in Warden's Peek it hasn't be that way, also *spoiler* it's obvious that Duncan was also interested in messing up in politics *end spoilers*
Blood magic is just that, primal magic can do more instant harm than blood magic... tempest of the century to the ships that are carrying medicine, blizzard to the crops... just think of it.

Actually your wrong. about them not having a End justifies the means, Policy, its mentioned MORE then once through out the game, and as you pointed out about the wardens peek, the mage there also calls it the CORE principle, do so what ever it takes and use what the means to defeat the dark spawns.

Also more then once through the game do you during convesation have the option to say something very similar to that.

Yeah but you need context. For example, enslaving all Ferelden with blood magic is not a very skillful mean to unite them and stop the Blight. 
Another mean for example would be the Gray Wardens taking all the political power so there is going to be only 1 regime and 1 kind of decission... in peace: Vigilance.

So no, the end does not justify the means for them, also you can not speak of a generality of Gray Warden, for example some Gray Warden didn't support Sophia Dryden because of the idea that Gray Wardens should be politicaly neutral no matter what <- That is not a the end justify the means philosophy. 
I think that the same mistake is happening here as when sometimes people interpretate Machiavelli, one has to be VERY careful in the means for an end, Machiavelli is very explicit in that after the 13th chapter of the Prince if I well remember... (It was Napoleon who said the end justify the means, and it was not in those exact words) and Duncan is veeery careful with what he does...
The Architect is the philosophy of the end justify the means.

[DoctorPringles]

Is a sword inherently evil? No. If you use a sword to defend your family, your home, from those that would destroy it, is that evil? No. If you use a sword to murder a pregnant woman and her unborn child, is that evil? Yes.



The weapon is not evil, the soldier is. The same can be said of blood magic.

[Wishpig]

DoctorPringles wrote...

Is a sword inherently evil? No. If you use a sword to defend your family, your home, from those that would destroy it, is that evil? No. If you use a sword to murder a pregnant woman and her unborn child, is that evil? Yes.

The weapon is not evil, the soldier is. The same can be said of blood magic.

To be fair... a sword doesn't suck the life out of friends, boil blood, or enslave people.

You could kill a pregnant woman and her unborn child with a sword... but with blood magice you could boil the child alive in the womb.

Ugh, I just gave myself the chills!

[DoctorPringles]

You can also boil a child alive with a pot of water and a fire. Are those evil?

[elfdwarf]

demon =spirit =human

old demon =blood magic

human=evil or good=spirit

spirit =blood magic

[DarkJudg3s]

I really do not see demons as evil, just instinctual like the lion or bear.

Rage demons have uncontrollable rage.

Hunger demons have unquenchable hunger

Sloth demons are unbelievably lazy.

Desire demons wish to corrupt.

Pride demons are no different than humans.

[TurokDarkstar]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

This keeps coming up and it really should not.  Blood Magic is not easier.  There's a phrase for this type of unsupported conclusion - non sequitur.

Now, say if there were a scenario in the game where you could mind control Loghain and have him commit a murder/suicide with Howe, then yes, it would be easier.  But it just ain't so.

Are we talking about mechanics or lore?

The story.  There's no way to ease your way through it by using Blood Magic.  As such, it would be the writers' fiat that the Grey Warden not use it in such a way, for whatever reason.  I'm not saying it's not a good shortcut for solving problems given unlimited freedom (obviously, it would be).  However, for the purpose at hand it is no easier to prevail using Blood Magic than other methods.

Given the immense powers that mages weild, which is only limited by your mana reserves, I would say that blood magic is pretty powerful (easy). You have unlimited fuel for your demigod like abilities. It would be like having unlimited bullets for a gattling gun or unlimited and free missles for a battleship.

[Shenordak]

 The question is not whether Blood magic is evil or not, it is whether it is inherently corrupting or not. What I mean is; will a Blood Mage always fall eventually? And if she does what will happen?

Even if you do not need to deal directly with a demon to learn the art you need to study tomes that must have been written by someone who did. The entire connection with demons is the point here. Who originally learnt Blood Magic and more importantly who taught them?

The answer has to be a demon. I simply can not see any other candidate. And why would demons teach mortals Blood Magic? Well, not to be friendly. Even Morrigan refuses to deal with demons. It is obvious that demons can not be trusted. This implies that there is some hidden agenda at work here.

To answer my original question: There is every indication that Blood Magic is meant to corrupt its users in order to provide good candidates for demonic possession. Think about it: Why would demons teach a powerful kind of magic to mortals, whom they hate, it they do not thmeselves gain anything? Blood magic is not evil as much as a tool of evil, but it is dangerous, both for the user and ,worse, for those around him.

The chantry, despite how much eveyone on this thread seems to hate them, has a very valid point. Magic is dangerous, and Blood magic especially so. Just look at the number of abominations and mad blood magic users in the world as it is. Without the templars to regulate and police magic users there is no telling what would happen.

And, lastly, for those of you who would like to point out that Blood magic could be used for good by a strong-willed mage with care and precision I quote Nietzsche:
When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you

[The Capital Gaultier]

TurokDarkstar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

TurokDarkstar wrote...

In principle I find it evil. Blood magic isn't the only available means of stopping the threat that faces the land, its just easier.

This keeps coming up and it really should not.  Blood Magic is not easier.  There's a phrase for this type of unsupported conclusion - non sequitur.

Now, say if there were a scenario in the game where you could mind control Loghain and have him commit a murder/suicide with Howe, then yes, it would be easier.  But it just ain't so.

Are we talking about mechanics or lore?

The story.  There's no way to ease your way through it by using Blood Magic.  As such, it would be the writers' fiat that the Grey Warden not use it in such a way, for whatever reason.  I'm not saying it's not a good shortcut for solving problems given unlimited freedom (obviously, it would be).  However, for the purpose at hand it is no easier to prevail using Blood Magic than other methods.

Given the immense powers that mages weild, which is only limited by your mana reserves, I would say that blood magic is pretty powerful (easy). You have unlimited fuel for your demigod like abilities. It would be like having unlimited bullets for a gattling gun or unlimited and free missles for a battleship.

Again, you're arguing from theory and not fact.  I agree, in theory.  In fact, it is simply untrue.  Blood Magic does not ease the story.

[.Raven.rpg]

BLOOD MAGIC IS NOT EVIL If you use your own blood,but when you start to use blood of others you become evil.

So

-Blood magic is not evil

-blod sacrifice IS EVIL

-Blood wound and blood control are not evil

[Envor44]

Depend on point of view like blood mages and the chantry has their own.



Well if it controlable...

[Abriael_CG]

Every time you use blood magic you risk a demon to be freed in the world to feed on it's inhabitants, so yes, I would say using blood magic is indeed to be considered "evil" in how it puts everyone around you at risk.



Is driving around the city with an atomic bomb in the trunk of your car evil?

[DoctorPringles]

I'll use an example, here. A mage summons demons to defend his home. After all the killing's done, the demons decide they want to kill some more humans. The mage locks both himself and the demons inside the home so that they don't go crazy on the world.



I'd call that good, if anything. In no way was that mage evil, nor was he corrupted by summoning the demons. He understood the risk to the world and, unwilling to cause that kind of destruction, chose to seal not only the demons, but himself as well, inside his home. I'd call that self-sacrifice, which is in no way evil. So, can mages be corrupted by blood magic? Yes. Just as politicians can be corrupted by money. Can they resist it? Absolutely.

[Shenordak]

Can they really or do they just think they can? Remeber the games tagline: "It was the hubris of men that brought the darkspawn into the world". The sheer risk of using something as potentially dangerous as blood magic is what makes it evil. You are essentially playing Russian roulette not only with your own life but also with the world around you.

[DoctorPringles]

That doesn't make Blood Magic itself evil, it makes the man controlling it evil. From what I've understood, most who choose to follow Blood Magic do so for selfish reasons, but there are exceptions, two of which being in the Dragon Age game. I won't say more lest I give spoilers, but I believe there is enough evidence in the game to support that Blood Magic is not ingerently evil.

[cachx]

Nah, Blood Magic in itself is not evil. However it is considered more powerful and with more potential to cause harm, because IF you wanted you could use other people's blood and/or control someone through blood.

This kind of power causes fear, and fearful people will brand you as evil. This can extend to regular mages as well, that's why there are templars.

[Ben-Juda]

Good? Evil? What is the differance?

[Abriael_CG]

cachx wrote...

Nah, Blood Magic in itself is not evil. However it is considered more powerful and with more potential to cause harm, because IF you wanted you could use other people's blood and/or control someone through blood.

Actually the main reason why it could cause harm, and because it's usage is arguably evil, is that even IF you don't want, a demon stronger than you could subjugate you and turn you in an abomination, and given that no one can be sure that he's stronger than any demon, no one can use blood magic safely.

So, in short, using blood magic means willingly putting everyone around you in severe danger. So yes, it is evil.

[J_chambers]

I just find it odd that Blood Magic is singled out as being the most of evil form of arcane knowledge.



"Ok, you can learn how to cast a fireball, summon an earth quake, make people's body explode, summon a winter storm or death cloud....but you must never learn blood magic."

[Abriael_CG]

J_chambers wrote...

I just find it odd that Blood Magic is singled out as being the most of evil form of arcane knowledge.

"Ok, you can learn how to cast a fireball, summon an earth quake, make people's body explode, summon a winter storm or death cloud....but you must never learn blood magic."

Because when you summon all those devastating things, you do it under your own will. If a demon takes control of you, you won't have any will left to restrain you from doing all those things, and worse.