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Is blood magic evil?


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#151
DoctorPringles

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Abriael_CG wrote...

J_chambers wrote...

I just find it odd that Blood Magic is singled out as being the most of evil form of arcane knowledge.

"Ok, you can learn how to cast a fireball, summon an earth quake, make people's body explode, summon a winter storm or death cloud....but you must never learn blood magic."


Because when you summon all those devastating things, you do it under your own will. If a demon takes control of you, you won't have any will left to restrain you from doing all those things, and worse.


You don't have to use Blood Magic to be taken over by a demon. It states in the lore that mages are always in danger of possession, it never mentions that you have to be a blood mage.

#152
Abriael_CG

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DoctorPringles wrote...

You don't have to use Blood Magic to be taken over by a demon. It states in the lore that mages are always in danger of possession, it never mentions that you have to be a blood mage.


Everyone is ain danger of possession, being a mage increases that possibility, using blood magic puts you in direct contact with demons and as such it multiplies that possibility exponentially.
To put it down simply, b y using blood magic you exponentially increase the risks faced by everyone around you for your own gain. If that's not evil, I don't know what it is.

#153
LaztRezort

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I did not read through this thread, so hopefully this isn't out of context, but I've waiting to spring this developer quote snippet into one of these "Blood Magic Evil?" threads :P

David Gaider wrote...

... and the idea of a blood mage gaining access to a someone in a position of power very threatening. Blood magic isn't inherently evil, but the temptation to do evil when you have the power to bend others to your will must be insidious.


Keep in mind, however, that David also says that he is "keeping his options open" reguarding blood magic.

Original thread (interesting but full of spoilers) can be found here:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/631964

Modifié par LaztRezort, 21 janvier 2010 - 06:08 .


#154
Zemore

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My question is Jowan evil? hes the forefront of the Bloodmage example in Dragon age but is he evil ... honestly i dont think he is hes a very caring an insecure person He trusts you (mage origin) evil trusts in nothing but itself ..jowan is ..clumsy and foolish but not evil



but thats not to say others arent blood magic isnt inhernetly evil it depends on what limits you extend using blood as raw power is fine but consuming anothers life to weave a spell is



its a grey area hell why do you think they are GREY wardens they are between darkness and light they do what they must.

#155
Abriael_CG

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Evil is not necessarily intentional. That's malicious.

And  yes, grey warden do what they "must". There's no rule that states that they "must" use blood magic to defeat the blight. As a matter of fact, i'm pretty sure there are tons of us that finished the game (thus defeating the blight) without touching blood magic once.
Ergo, blood magic isn't a necessity, and as such isn't justified even for a grey warden.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:03 .


#156
Vazura

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If I can jump in? I think blood magic is not evil, but just a tool. The issue is that it is very VERY easy to do evil things with it.



Make it easy to summon demons? control people on a fundamental level? Suck the life out of innocents and allies to survive and fuel your arts? If you CAN do these things, it's going to be hard to not use it when it seems fitting.



Blood magic is not evil, it just has a lot of evil applications.

#157
DariusTrue

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KatzBlackblade wrote...

One thing is that you have to consort with demons to gain Blood Magic. That makes it definitively evil...


In the codex entry, I'm pretty sure it says that one of the ways to learn blood magic is through demons, I'm sure it can be learned other ways.  I think Jowan suggests that he learned it through careful research. Demons can also have sex, and that doesn't make that inherently evil... does it? :?

#158
Sarielle

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Evil is not necessarily intentional. That's malicious.

And  yes, grey warden do what they "must". There's no rule that states that they "must" use blood magic to defeat the blight. As a matter of fact, i'm pretty sure there are tons of us that finished the game (thus defeating the blight) without touching blood magic once.
Ergo, blood magic isn't a necessity, and as such isn't justified even for a grey warden.


If you've played Soldier's Peak content, you'll know that at least some of the Grey Wardens...don't necessarily view things the way you do. In a spoiler free forum that's all I'm going to mention.

Modifié par Sarielle, 21 janvier 2010 - 11:58 .


#159
Abriael_CG

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Sarielle wrote...
If you've played Soldier's Peak content, you'll know that at least some of the Grey Wardens...don't necessarily view things the way you do. In a spoiler free forum that's all I'm going to mention.


Yes, and you also see the consequences of that course of action, don't you? I'd say what you say in Soldier's peak is is quite an argument in favor of blood magic being evil, in fact.

#160
Sarielle

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Sarielle wrote...
If you've played Soldier's Peak content, you'll know that at least some of the Grey Wardens...don't necessarily view things the way you do. In a spoiler free forum that's all I'm going to mention.


Yes, and you also see the consequences of that course of action, don't you? I'd say what you say in Soldier's peak is is quite an argument in favor of blood magic being evil, in fact.


In that case, I'd agree that it's used for evil -- I was just pointing out that at least some of the Warden's would tell you to stuff it.  :P

I also would like to stress the word used; it does lend itself to use for evil, but the examples I used earlier in this thread were:

a) guns are not inherently evil; they are a tool, just like blood magic

B) I think anyone would be hard put to say that sacrificing your own life energy with bloodmagic to fuel healing for your allies is evil. The "blood" required doesn't necessarily need an outside source; you can use your own.

#161
Jacody

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I'll sum this up as much as possible:



It depends on how you use it, why you use it, and what you do with it.

#162
Zemore

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DariusTrue wrote...

KatzBlackblade wrote...

One thing is that you have to consort with demons to gain Blood Magic. That makes it definitively evil...


In the codex entry, I'm pretty sure it says that one of the ways to learn blood magic is through demons, I'm sure it can be learned other ways.  I think Jowan suggests that he learned it through careful research. Demons can also have sex, and that doesn't make that inherently evil... does it? :?

Jowan learned from the books that the first enchanter removed from the library so yeah your right he learned from other means

Blood magic orginates from demons it doesnt require a demon to teach the whole point that blood mages usually turn in to abominations is the fact they deal with a demon to learn then later the demon possesses them

#163
REH1967

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Blood Magic is only considered evil because the Chantry and its Templars can't nullify or control it like they do Lyrium based magics.



In the end, the evil label is a political construct of the powers that be in the game's setting. The true evil is done in the name of keeping and maintaining that power.

#164
Milliexis

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... We'll circle mages see blood magic as Evil. I think its more because of what happened at the tower that they see it as evil. But it is more of a point of View as you see in the dlc Wardens keep the view of a blood mage is seen as good tool to use in the fight... I wont spoil the storyline. A blood mage is seen as evil because of the time is it living in the whole country of fereldan see's blood mages as evil.

#165
bconk55

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Cybercat999 wrote...

Rulian wrote...
We are getting close to spoiler territory here, must navigate with caution.  Someone else (he's very young) pays the price to obtain that knewledge.  That is how it worked in my playthrough.


Someone else pays the price no matter what option I choose, blood magic is not the only one. By your logic romancing Alistair is dangerous evul thing as well then. *shrug*



The difference of course being that you actively choose one, while you only do with the other if you're metagaming. There is a reason why we differentiate between murder and manslaughter.

#166
StarMars

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David Gaider commented on this. He said Blood Magic isn't "inherently evil".



But thinking about it, I think they label it bad because it uses up blood and considering they didn't have the modern science we have now, they have to kill someone to obtain them. That or they feared the results of how the Tevinter used it.



And then there's the issue of mind control.

#167
Sarielle

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StarMars wrote...

David Gaider commented on this. He said Blood Magic isn't "inherently evil".

But thinking about it, I think they label it bad because it uses up blood and considering they didn't have the modern science we have now, they have to kill someone to obtain them. That or they feared the results of how the Tevinter used it.

And then there's the issue of mind control.


You don't have to kill someone to get a little blood. o_O

#168
Abriael_CG

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Sarielle wrote...
I also would like to stress the word used; it does lend itself to use for evil, but the examples I used earlier in this thread were:


Actually no, It wasn't used for evil. It was used for a rather good cause actually. the results were evil, because blood magic is not predictable. But the cause was not what matters. They used blood magic knowing the risks involved, and that was indeed an evil action that resulted in disaster for everyone involved. Long term disaster, considering that depending on what the player does, a demon could be set free in Ferelden, with extremely serious long-term consequences.

a) guns are not inherently evil; they are a tool, just like blood magic


I'm sorry, but the comparison doesn't work that well. Guns are predictable. You can't hurt someone unless you aim the gun at him and pull the trigger. This means that guns require the will of the user to cause harm for them to have negative results. Normal magic is pretty much the same as you have to will it into action to harm someone.

Blood magic is, on the other hand, unpredictable. When using blood magic there are high chances that, at any given moment, you'll enter in contact with one or more demons that are much more powerful with you. In that case you will become an abomination or even worse tear the veil to the fade, allowing demons in the real world.

To use your comparison in more proper terms, while using normal magic equates to using a gun, using blood magic equates to using a defective rocket launcer that could fire at any time and waving it around randomly in a crowd. That is evil, AND foolish.

B) I think anyone would be hard put to say that sacrificing your own life energy with bloodmagic to fuel healing for your allies is evil. The "blood" required doesn't necessarily need an outside source; you can use your own.


It still puts you in  contact with demonic energies, triggering the risks above, no matter who's blood you use.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 22 janvier 2010 - 03:27 .


#169
Sarielle

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Sarielle wrote...
I also would like to stress the word used; it does lend itself to use for evil, but the examples I used earlier in this thread were:


Actually no, It wasn't used for evil. It was used for a rather good cause actually. the results were evil, because blood magic is not predictable. But the cause was not what matters. They used blood magic knowing the risks involved, and that was indeed an evil action that resulted in disaster for everyone involved. Long term disaster, considering that depending on what the player does, a demon could be set free in Ferelden, with extremely serious long-term consequences.

a) guns are not inherently evil; they are a tool, just like blood magic


I'm sorry, but the comparison doesn't work that well. Guns are predictable. You can't hurt someone unless you aim the gun at him and pull the trigger. This means that guns require the will of the user to cause harm for them to have negative results. Normal magic is pretty much the same as you have to will it into action to harm someone.

Blood magic is, on the other hand, unpredictable. When using blood magic there are high chances that, at any given moment, you'll enter in contact with one or more demons that are much more powerful with you. In that case you will become an abomination or even worse tear the veil to the fade, allowing demons in the real world.

To use your comparison in more proper terms, while using normal magic equates to using a gun, using blood magic equates to using a defective rocket launcer that could fire at any time and waving it around randomly in a crowd. That is evil, AND foolish.

B) I think anyone would be hard put to say that sacrificing your own life energy with bloodmagic to fuel healing for your allies is evil. The "blood" required doesn't necessarily need an outside source; you can use your own.


It still puts you in  contact with demonic energies, triggering the risks above, no matter who's blood you use.



K, quoting quotes is gonna get messy so I'm just gonna summarize down here. :B

When I said it was used for evil, I was rather referring to what...a certain party has been up to after um...the thing you're talking about.

Also, I see nowhere in the codex or any of the lore that blood magic draws the attention of demons any more than regular magic.

What...the certain party did in the past...wasn't strictly blood magic. If you've ever looked at what you can do with blood magic...at least what's available to PCs...that ain't it. Forbidden magic maybe, blood magic no.

So basically, it still comes down to, "It's evil because the Chantry says so." And before you jump on the Chantry's bandwagon, remember how it is they maintain control of their Templar army. ;)

Modifié par Sarielle, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:00 .


#170
draxynnus

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Magus_42 wrote...

I know there's a temptation to talk about an ethical grey area here, but it's really hard for me to find a justification for mind control, and that seems to be the signature ability of a blood mage. The thing that everyone brings up as soon as blood magic is mentioned. I'm sure there are specific situations where such a thing is justified, but I suspect it would be a rare individual indeed who could resisting tapping into such power only in appropriate circumstances. I'm hardly a fan of the chantry, but I can certainly understand why they would forbid such power.

This is very much a grey area. Mind control (or body control in the case of Blood Magic) IS often seen as evil - but on the other hand, you can use it to force someone to surrender and spare their lives. Instead of outright killing them.

Ingame, it seems that Blood Magic's dark reputation is largely justified in that people who have it have usually, directly or indirectly, received the training from a demon (while it's possible to learn it without direct contact, however removed the person you learned it from probably learned it from someone who learned it from... [insert arbitrary number of links] ...someone who consorted with a demon) - but it does seem to be something where the important thing is how it's used. The usual example, for instance - yes, the usual example got forced into doing some dubious things and isn't exactly a shining paragon of virtue, but I wouldn't say the usual example is evil either.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Yes, cause the chantry could never dare to cross the GW. It is all politics, give and take. People has no power over a despot either, but the despot still does not cross the people.

That's because of the "every ruler needs the consent of his people" thing. Yes, that consent can be taken through fear and oppression rather than freely given, but when push comes to shove, if it ever gets bad enough that the people rebel as a group and refuse to back down - either the despot is going to lose or (s)he'll end up with no-one to despot over.

The Chantry, on the other hand, does have the potential to have a lot of power over the Wardens - since a king can exile them from a country, imagine the effect of the Chantry declaring a purge of the Wardens. They'd probably need strong reason to do so, but enough potential is there for the Wardens to want to avoid unnecessarily provoking the Chantry.

filaminstrel wrote...

--Sacrificing others: probably more on the evil side, particularly if it's against they're will. Although, hypothetically, if one were to sacrifice the life force of one's opponents on the battlefield, would that really be any worse than using fire, lightning, etc? Probably not, I'd say.

Plus, doesn't the version the Warden has access to only work on allies (which implies willing targets)? This is probably just a balance thing, since powerful NPCs can obviously drain unwilling targets (possibly the next step after Blood Control is to drain from a controlled target? Or are they just using the Draining school from Entropy?) but at least in the Warden's hands, it's all implied to be willing.

REH1967 wrote...

Blood Magic is only considered evil because the Chantry and its Templars can't nullify or control it like they do Lyrium based magics.

That is an interesting observation, although I doubt it's the only reason.

#171
The Capital Gaultier

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Abriael_CG wrote...

Sarielle wrote...
I also would like to stress the word used; it does lend itself to use for evil, but the examples I used earlier in this thread were:


Actually no, It wasn't used for evil. It was used for a rather good cause actually. the results were evil, because blood magic is not predictable. But the cause was not what matters. They used blood magic knowing the risks involved, and that was indeed an evil action that resulted in disaster for everyone involved. Long term disaster, considering that depending on what the player does, a demon could be set free in Ferelden, with extremely serious long-term consequences.

a) guns are not inherently evil; they are a tool, just like blood magic


I'm sorry, but the comparison doesn't work that well. Guns are predictable. You can't hurt someone unless you aim the gun at him and pull the trigger. This means that guns require the will of the user to cause harm for them to have negative results. Normal magic is pretty much the same as you have to will it into action to harm someone.

Blood magic is, on the other hand, unpredictable. When using blood magic there are high chances that, at any given moment, you'll enter in contact with one or more demons that are much more powerful with you. In that case you will become an abomination or even worse tear the veil to the fade, allowing demons in the real world.

To use your comparison in more proper terms, while using normal magic equates to using a gun, using blood magic equates to using a defective rocket launcer that could fire at any time and waving it around randomly in a crowd. That is evil, AND foolish.

B) I think anyone would be hard put to say that sacrificing your own life energy with bloodmagic to fuel healing for your allies is evil. The "blood" required doesn't necessarily need an outside source; you can use your own.


It still puts you in  contact with demonic energies, triggering the risks above, no matter who's blood you use.

Same goes for any magic.  There's no increased risk from using blood magic.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 22 janvier 2010 - 04:49 .


#172
Carodej

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This topic is still going? Sheesh! I figured David Gaider's saying it was not inherently evil should have ended things.



Look, any magic or potentially destructive force can be used to do evil. Radiation can cause cancer, it can also be used to fight cancer. Magic is just another tool that is potentially destructive.



Mages get more attention from beings in the Fade, but not all those being are evil, and it's their ability to do magic that gets them the attention. Casting spells, well other than summoning spells or a spell that puts you into the Fade, do NOT put you into communication with a Demon bent on corrupting you. This includes Blood Magic spells. (And there is nothing I have seen to indicate Blood Magic is any less predictable than any other magic, or than firing a gun/using a hand grenade/etc.)



I will admit that advanced Blood Magic - by that I mean more than we get in the specialization, more the sort of thing Avernus did - would tend to seduce one to being evil. But it does not cause one to be evil. The true mind control in advanced Blood Magic could be incredibly tempting to use. And I can see how easy it would be to use it to "just make this one thing right," and keep saying that as you influence more and more minds for more and more things. It could easily be a slippery slope for someone not very aware of themself. But that's a problem of temptation in gneral, it's not that Blood Magic made the person evil, but that temptation can corrupt one.


#173
Sarielle

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Heh, actually, I looked up the codex entry:

Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.


So. Doing this, I'd wager, is where you start to really start to push the limits of sensibility and start to put your allies and yourself in unnecessary risks -- more than any other type mages faces any time they wield magic. Nothing the PC has access to is like that.

Even so, I would still not go so far as to say it's inherently evil; just that it's dangerous.


As for your comments on needing intent to harm someone with a gun vs. accidental harm with blood magic, Abriael_CG...I think the number of accidental shootings prove that's not even remotely the case.

Modifié par Sarielle, 22 janvier 2010 - 11:12 .


#174
TafkanX

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Why does everybody insist that blood magic and demonology must always be paired? Please do correct me if I'm wrong (preferably by citing a source), but the two practices are separate entities. Sure, demons have been known to teach blood magic via dark deals. But practicing blood magic once learned has absolutely zero to do with demons. Can you summon a demon (demonology) in order to learn blood magic? Sure. That's about as much as one has to do with the other.

Granted, in the game a lot of the blood mages you face off against do tend to practice demonology. This has less to do with the fact that they are related and more to do with the fact that they are nasty individuals with a slant toward unsavory practices.

Again, I'll gladly retract my statement if somebody can point me to a definitive source stating that blood magic and demonology are part and parcel of the same package.

#175
OH-UP-THIS!

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Define evil, it is objective afterall.



One girls' evil is another girls' giggle.