237 réponses à ce sujet

[Charsen]

Red Frostraven wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Blood magic is more evil than a sword because.... you don't have to deal with a demon to get a sword, and you don't have to kill someone to get a sword.

Once ONE of your characters get the blood mage class, any of your characters can use it.
Just like Jowan, who allegedly read the books in the first enchanter's quarters to learn blood magic; he had never been in the veil or outside the tower, remember?

Had it NOT been banned, people would NOT have to consort with demons to learn it, no?
...
So, in a sense, the censorship of blood magic is a grave evil itself.

It is dangerous to be sure, but outlawing that which is dangerous is not the way to go: 
Control is the way. Teach those who are sane, capable and mature enough to use the magic.

True, but.. just because you teach it to Wynne doesn't make its demonic source less real, it's just second-hand demonic. And additionally, you still need to do harm to use blood magic, right?

I also was under the impression that they banned blood magic because they were consorting with demons, and not that they were consorting with demons because it was banned.

But forgive me if I'm wrong, this is my first play-through and I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

They banned Blood Magic because of its manipulative powers. A single blood mage can through the power of his magic gain control of an entire kingdom by just dominating the mind of the kingdom's king. That is why the blood magic school is so dangerous.

[Red Frostraven]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, infinite lyrium potions aren't free. Keep relying on those forever and you'll be gimping yourself.

I'm not saying that it's worth taking more WP, mind. I don't think either WP or CON are worth much , though you might want a little more HP to avoid getting two-shotted.

No, they're not free -- you actually get PAID to make them

[Rulian]

The principle behind blood magic being evil is that you value pure POWER more than pure LIFE itself, it is wrong by nature. Life itself is not sacred but is disposable and only exists to be used by you. Almost reminds me of the Jedi versus Sith philosophies.
Jedi: "May the force be with you."
Sith: "May the force serve you."

Of course the whole stripping free will, veil destruction and demonic pushers doesn't sit well either. By the way, did anyone ever wonder why demons like to get mages hooked on this stuff?

Modifié par Rulian, 01 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Ahisgewaya]

See I find it weird that when I say something like "blood mages have low willpower and are therefore weak willed" people immediately start saying "you don't need willpower you have lyrium potions".



See that thing flying over your head just now? That was the point.

Willpower represents how much WILLPOWER your character has. If he has low willpower he is by definition weak willed and therefore easily possesed.

[Red Frostraven]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

See I find it weird that when I say something like "blood mages have low willpower and are therefore weak willed" people immediately start saying "you don't need willpower you have lyrium potions".

See that thing flying over your head just now? That was the point.
Willpower represents how much WILLPOWER your character has. If he has low willpower he is by definition weak willed and therefore easily possesed.

I said that REGULAR mages don't have more willpower than blood mages because of lyrium pots, a sentiment which is kind of ironic; do they take lyrium because they are weak willed, or are they weak willed because they can take lyrium?

But the point remains: There's no logical reason for why a blood mage SHOULD have less willpower than a regular mage.
Their spells have a life cost COMPONENT, they're not only fueled by life.

And to whomever said it's disrespectful to life to use blood magic: On the contrary -- it's martyrdom to sacrifice of your life for a cause you believe in, and the same applies to when partymembers WILLINGLY sacrifice of their life to fuel the battle-winning spells.

The mage cicle sais blood magic is bad.
The chantry sais blood magic is bad.
The templars sais blood magic is bad.

The chantry hunts down and kill any mage not licenced by them.
The templars hunt down and kill and mage not licenced by them.
The mage's circle *let* their own mages and former mages die for violating the rules.

...
Nowhere in the game lore itself is it implied that blood magic is in fact more evil than any sword: A tool of war.
And in my opinion, the chantry, templars and mage's circle are the greatest evils in Thedas AFTER the Blight.

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 01 mars 2010 - 02:13 .

[Ahisgewaya]

You know, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe Lyrium saps your will unless you constantly focus to prevent it? Maybe blood magic does the same thing. hmm....

[Ahisgewaya]

And I agree I find it more heinous to use animate dead. I can't even use that spell without cringing and thinking "man, I am an ****". Maybe it's my cultural upbringing I don't know.

And I know it's a fade spirit you bind to the corpse but that still is just wrong....
Might as well bring along a catapult and launch dead bodies at the darkspawn after digging them up from the cemetary.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[Red Frostraven]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

And I agree I find it more heinous to use animate dead. I can't even use that spell without cringing and thinking "man, I am an ****". Maybe it's my cultural upbringing I don't know.

And I know it's a fade spirit you bind to the corpse but that still is just wrong....
Might as well bring along a catapult and launch dead bodies at the darkspawn after digging them up from the cemetary.

Fill their bodies with burning spears and their bellies with flammable oil before launching them with the catapult, and you won't even need to hold funerals afterwards.

...
...
Heck -- animate them corpses mid-air and have them attempt to take a few swings upon landing before they blow up 



...
And finally... which is worse: Taking control over the bodies of the dead, or taking control over the minds of the living -- or killing the living?

Modifié par Red Frostraven, 01 mars 2010 - 02:58 .

[Fishy]

It's not *evil* .. But people using it tend to be *evil* .. Since first .. You need to make a pact with a demon to obtain it .. you also have more chance to become an abomination.Most blood mage tend to do horrible thing because blood magic seem to go toward that way.

It's not evil .. But for the most part yes.Most people using it tend to lean toward evil ..Hell if you're a blood mage you basicly suck the blood of your companions to heal yourself.In a Roleplay and story perspective it's rather bad (Not for a gameplay perspective)

Most of the thing you can do with blood magic tend to be dangerous and bad.
There's nothing good coming out of blood magic.It's just about controlling and killing and sucking blood.Unlike other magic like ... Healing or even fire/ice that can ahve other use outside of killing and sucking.

Kinda like a Nuclear bomb ... You can't really do good stuff with a  nuclear bomb.You can't build or save life with a nuclear bomb.It's just kill and destroy.A nuclear bomb ain't evil .. But if you use a nuclear bomb..Most of the time you don't use it to   build a bridge or cure  cancer..

Sight.

basicly.Mage could live without bloodmagic just like we could live without weapons.

Modifié par Suprez30, 01 mars 2010 - 03:21 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Charsen wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Blood magic is more evil than a sword because.... you don't have to deal with a demon to get a sword, and you don't have to kill someone to get a sword.

Once ONE of your characters get the blood mage class, any of your characters can use it.
Just like Jowan, who allegedly read the books in the first enchanter's quarters to learn blood magic; he had never been in the veil or outside the tower, remember?

Had it NOT been banned, people would NOT have to consort with demons to learn it, no?
...
So, in a sense, the censorship of blood magic is a grave evil itself.

It is dangerous to be sure, but outlawing that which is dangerous is not the way to go: 
Control is the way. Teach those who are sane, capable and mature enough to use the magic.

True, but.. just because you teach it to Wynne doesn't make its demonic source less real, it's just second-hand demonic. And additionally, you still need to do harm to use blood magic, right?

I also was under the impression that they banned blood magic because they were consorting with demons, and not that they were consorting with demons because it was banned.

But forgive me if I'm wrong, this is my first play-through and I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

Well you don't have to use it in a harmful way anymore than any other form of magic. If you want you can just use it so your blood fuels your spells.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Suprez30 wrote...

It's not *evil* .. But people using it tend to be *evil* .. Since first .. You need to make a pact with a demon to obtain it .. you also have more chance to become an abomination.Most blood mage tend to do horrible thing because blood magic seem to go toward that way.

It's not evil .. But for the most part yes.Most people using it tend to lean toward evil ..Hell if you're a blood mage you basicly suck the blood of your companions to heal yourself.In a Roleplay and story perspective it's rather bad (Not for a gameplay perspective)

Most of the thing you can do with blood magic tend to be dangerous and bad.
There's nothing good coming out of blood magic.It's just about controlling and killing and sucking blood.Unlike other magic like ... Healing or even fire/ice that can ahve other use outside of killing and sucking.

Kinda like a Nuclear bomb ... You can't really do good stuff with a  nuclear bomb.You can't build or save life with a nuclear bomb.It's just kill and destroy.A nuclear bomb ain't evil .. But if you use a nuclear bomb..Most of the time you don't use it to   build a bridge or cure  cancer..

Sight.

basicly.Mage could live without bloodmagic just like we could live without weapons.

Again, you don't have to suck the blood from your companions. Blood magic has more than one use. Blood mages use blood to fuel their spells, but that blood can simply be their own.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Rulian wrote...

The principle behind blood magic being evil is that you value pure POWER more than pure LIFE itself, it is wrong by nature. Life itself is not sacred but is disposable and only exists to be used by you. Almost reminds me of the Jedi versus Sith philosophies.
Jedi: "May the force be with you."
Sith: "May the force serve you."

Of course the whole stripping free will, veil destruction and demonic pushers doesn't sit well either. By the way, did anyone ever wonder why demons like to get mages hooked on this stuff?

Actually there's a similiarity between force users(Jedi and Sith) and blood mages. Both have the power to control minds. Isn't the Jedi mind tricks a form of mind control?

[Ahisgewaya]

Red Frostraven wrote...

And finally... which is worse: Taking control over the bodies of the dead, or taking control over the minds of the living -- or killing the living?

That last one depends on whom it is I am killing. If it's someone who means you harm then I see nothing wrong at all with killing them. The same goes for controlling their mind. Once you cross that line into "threat to my life or the life of those I love" then anything goes.

Unless you know the particular corpse you are animating however, chances are that person did absolutely nothing to you. So by animating their corpse and desecrating their remains you are screwing someone over for no reason whatsoever. So to answer your question, I think taking over the bodies of the dead is far worse. Especially if it's just a random dead person, which in these games and stories it usually is.

[Ahisgewaya]

Suprez30 wrote...

Kinda like a Nuclear bomb ... You can't really do good stuff with a  nuclear bomb.You can't build or save life with a nuclear bomb.It's just kill and destroy.A nuclear bomb ain't evil .. But if you use a nuclear bomb..Most of the time you don't use it to   build a bridge or cure  cancer..

Sight.

basicly.Mage could live without bloodmagic just like we could live without weapons.

This is idiotic. Nuclear Fusion heats your house I would imagine. It's also much cleaner than fossil fuels, which we are currently destroying the planet with.
And weapons are a tool, nothing more. Without them humanity would not have evolved to the point we are now at.
Your ancestors could not and did not live without weapons. It really pisses me off when people say stupid **** like this. Without weapons they would not have been able to obtain meat which means you wouldn't have that big brain which you take for granted. Nature is not a nice place. It's kill or be killed. Law of the jungle my friend.

And the grey warden ritual sure does seem a lot like blood magic, doesn't it? There's also the matter of Avernus' research, which while he went about it in the wrong way,  it could save the lives of grey wardens everywhere.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 08:18 .

[Destrier77]

And the grey warden ritual doesnt seem even a little bit evil to you mr angry? You're a little bit worrying in your right/wrong, good/evil views to me.

That moment, when he forced the drink on the knight, and then killed him when he refused. Pure evil...

Nuclear WEAPONS are evil. They blow **** up. Guns are evil they blow stuff up.

Take the first research on fission or fusion, scientists tinkering about in the quest for knowledge, and then when they asked for support and got it from different governments what did those governments push that research towards? Destruction. So i think they made it an evil thing. They didnt think about powering the world. Oh lets give the world free power, get them all out of this recession (excessive i know but you get the point). Their answer was "lets make something that can kill a few thousand in a few seconds". I would say thats pretty evil in the humanitarian sense and every other sense.

In a happy chocolate and sweets world we wouldnt need weapons even for hunting as you put it. We would eat vegetables and still survive. (no im not a vegetarian) Do humans need big brains? Are we any happier than apes in our little destructive world?

I think its so interesting to read this, and wonderful how its a grey area to a lot of people.

The fact of the matter is like all weapons and "evil" if you are not strong enough to defeat your enemies, some will embrace evil to win. If im having an argument with you that you are losing, and you escalate it to a fist fight and i draw out a gun and shoot you, im not evil. Im just using a "tool" to win an argument no?

I think no matter how you paint it, blood magic is evil. But its hard to argue againsts its power in the end. N how much fun it can be

Modifié par Destrier77, 02 mars 2010 - 12:51 .

[Rulian]

Red Frostraven wrote...
And to whomever said it's disrespectful to life to use blood magic: On the contrary -- it's martyrdom to sacrifice of your life for a cause you believe in, and the same applies to when partymembers WILLINGLY sacrifice of their life to fuel the battle-winning spells.
...
Nowhere in the game lore itself is it implied that blood magic is in fact more evil than any sword: A tool of war.
And in my opinion, the chantry, templars and mage's circle are the greatest evils in Thedas AFTER the Blight.

Your statement is a contridiction in of itself.  Sacrificing your own life willingly for more life saved numerically, is something completely different.

If you think the Chantry is bad then try living under the pre-Chantry Temvinter Imperium.

[Myusha]

There is no such thing as good or evil. Only two sides.

Jowan's use of blood magic was done against the laws set by everything he knew.

However he did it to improve his usefulness towards the Circle and to protect Lily, when his regular magic would not be effective.



Or how Avernus summoned demons and others using blood magic.

Or how a mage warden can use blood magic and end the Blight with it. Blood Magic alone is not evil. It's origin and the sterotypical type of people who recieve it give Blood Magic it's reputation.

[frayjog]

Moral relativism. Evil itself does not inherently exist. Neither does good. All that exist are perspectives.
This is not only true regarding blood magic, but everything in-game or IRL.

Modifié par frayjog, 02 mars 2010 - 04:21 .

[CybAnt1]

Interesting question. AFAIK, the "power of blood" abilities are themselves a form of blood magic. They're based on Avernus' research on/with blood magic, and when you gain them, you are in fact gaining blood magic based abilities. (In fact, exactly like blood magic, these abilities usually cost you health in order to use.)



However, not just mages can gain power of blood.... so can rogues and warriors.



Question: if you feel blood magic is evil, are rogues & warriors with power of blood abilities ... also evil?

[Charsen]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Red Frostraven wrote...

Charsen wrote...

Blood magic is more evil than a sword because.... you don't have to deal with a demon to get a sword, and you don't have to kill someone to get a sword.

Once ONE of your characters get the blood mage class, any of your characters can use it.
Just like Jowan, who allegedly read the books in the first enchanter's quarters to learn blood magic; he had never been in the veil or outside the tower, remember?

Had it NOT been banned, people would NOT have to consort with demons to learn it, no?
...
So, in a sense, the censorship of blood magic is a grave evil itself.

It is dangerous to be sure, but outlawing that which is dangerous is not the way to go: 
Control is the way. Teach those who are sane, capable and mature enough to use the magic.

True, but.. just because you teach it to Wynne doesn't make its demonic source less real, it's just second-hand demonic. And additionally, you still need to do harm to use blood magic, right?

I also was under the impression that they banned blood magic because they were consorting with demons, and not that they were consorting with demons because it was banned.

But forgive me if I'm wrong, this is my first play-through and I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

Well you don't have to use it in a harmful way anymore than any other form of magic. If you want you can just use it so your blood fuels your spells.

True, but still the link to demons is there and undeniable, right?

[Myusha]

I thought it was banned due to it's capabilites of mind control?

[CybAnt1]

Another question that comes to mind: it's clear the reaver path for warriors seems blood-magic-like. Not unlike blood magic, reaver seems to kind of be a dark, forbidden path for warriors. Not unlike blood magic itself, you have to learn it from an enemy. Reaver abilities kind of even work the same way (drawing upon your lifeforce to harm others). I find the analogy between the two paths interesting.

[Myusha]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Another question that comes to mind: it's clear the reaver path for warriors seems blood-magic-like. Not unlike blood magic, reaver seems to kind of be a dark, forbidden path for warriors. Not unlike blood magic itself, you have to learn it from an enemy. Reaver abilities kind of even work the same way (drawing upon your lifeforce to harm others). I find the analogy between the two paths interesting.

Cyb... I'd like to consider this.

The Power of Blood abilities allow you to access the potential of the Darkspawn Blood you drank.
And the Reaver class involves you drinking blood as well. Who's to say our abilites arn't due to what substances we place into our body. While blood magic is learned by consorting with demons or so it appears.

[Charsen]

frayjog wrote...

Moral relativism. Evil itself does not inherently exist. Neither does good. All that exist are perspectives.
This is not only true regarding blood magic, but everything in-game or IRL.

Yes, I agree mostly, - 

If you define "evil" as a force that exists to selectively and thoroughly hinder, harm or destroy the humanoid races or life in general, and, if said lifeforms define a demon as having these goals, then demons are evil.

Of course, to a "demon", they would consider humanoid races to be evil. So really we are talking about enemies here; who is the enemy of humanity in this game setting? I think that's clear. So, "evil" is quite a simple term, but it's much less verbose than a culturally sensitive definition.

Since my mage is a human that believes that the Blight is a true enemy, he also believes that anything that feeds or aids a demon is then also feeding or aiding the Blight. That is why he attributes blood magic to evil.

However, since a blood mage is a human, they are therefore redeemable, and so they are not evil because they do not exist solely to destroy humanity. They might try to do it, they might like to do it, but it's not their purpose from birth.

So I suppose to summarize, blood magic is evil because it is a tool derived from "evil" as defined above, but a blood mage is not evil because they are still human.

Now, IRL? I don't believe in good or evil but I also do not believe in demons. In the game setting though, it's a fact of life.


*forgive this if it makes canon assumptions about the link between demons and blood magic, this is what I've gathered from my first play-through as a mage so I may be entirely nuts. 

Modifié par Charsen, 02 mars 2010 - 05:02 .