45 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

So, I posited this on another thread, and it got me wondering what others thoguht:

I have to wonder:  to those who actually thought the endings were good, what would you say about Saren in ME1 if he was right?  What if his assertion that the Reapers would spare the galaxy and allow them to live as slaves if they had surrendered at the start  Would Saren have been the hero of ME1?

So, pretending for a moment that Saren was right, and not indoctrinated, that if organics had surrendered to the Reapers, they would have been enslaved rather than killed for resisting, would Saren have been the hero?

I ask this given the Crucible results.  How different would Saren have been from Shepard with those choices?

[MetioricTest]

I've always found to cooler to ponder "What if TIM wasn't indoctrinated "

On Horizon he kinda proves the Reapers can be controlled

[Enhanced]

Even if Saren wasn't indoctrinated, surrendering still meant being turned into a reaper or reaper unit, eventually.

Modifié par Enhanced, 11 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

So, I posited this on another thread, and it got me wondering what others thoguht:

I have to wonder:  to those who actually thought the endings were good, what would you say about Saren in ME1 if he was right?  What if his assertion that the Reapers would spare the galaxy and allow them to live as slaves if they had surrendered at the start  Would Saren have been the hero of ME1?

So, pretending for a moment that Saren was right, and not indoctrinated, that if organics had surrendered to the Reapers, they would have been enslaved rather than killed for resisting, would Saren have been the hero?

I ask this given the Crucible results.  How different would Saren have been from Shepard with those choices?

As in the other thread: slavery is still a net negative effect for organic life over their previous state. This would only apply if the Reapers were completely invincible.

[PwrdOff]

I, for one, welcome our new techno-organic space cuttlefish overlords. Synthesis for all!

[KingZayd]

No. Eternal submission is not preferable to extinction. But I respect that although his campaign started with hate for humanity, in the end he was motivated by concern for the safety of everyone in the galaxy.

Also, I think Saren would pick destroy if given the choice (assuming he chose freely, and wasn't coerced). But then, as destroy seems to me to be the least stupid choice, I see every character that I deem to be intelligent picking destroy.

Modifié par KingZayd, 11 avril 2013 - 04:06 .

[Iakus]

Enhanced wrote...

Even if Saren wasn't indoctrinated, surrendering still meant being turned into a reaper or reaper unit, eventually.

Yes, but for the purposes of this exercise, we are assuming surrendering would avoid that fate, and the organic races would simply be enslaved, rather than smoothified/huskified. 


@MeteoricTest:  yeah TIM was definitely correct, even the Catalyst admitted as such.  I think his indoctrination just meant the Reapers could go "You don't want to touch those electrodes"

[KoorahUK]

iakus wrote...

So, I posited this on another thread, and it got me wondering what others thoguht:

I have to wonder:  to those who actually thought the endings were good, what would you say about Saren in ME1 if he was right?  What if his assertion that the Reapers would spare the galaxy and allow them to live as slaves if they had surrendered at the start  Would Saren have been the hero of ME1?

So, pretending for a moment that Saren was right, and not indoctrinated, that if organics had surrendered to the Reapers, they would have been enslaved rather than killed for resisting, would Saren have been the hero?

I ask this given the Crucible results.  How different would Saren have been from Shepard with those choices?

Not sure I follow your logic. If Saren hadn't been indoctrinated, he was plain wrong.

The Reapers did not want to conquer us in the way the Romans did, where taking slaves from the defeated was an objective of expansion, they wanted to harvest us - that was their sole purpose.

They killed those fighting back because they were an impediment to that harvest, not to punish us for daring to defy them. The 'become our slaves and we will spare you' line is bull****, intended to beguile organics fearful for their lives into dropping resistance. Giving in to the Reapers meant becoming bio-goo or becoming a husk - at best a Collector type race. There is no way Saren was right about anything unless the Reapers entire purpose was different. 

And no, Synthesis isn't the same thing as waht Saren was talking about.

[CosmicGnosis]

And yet, Synthesis has nothing to do with slavery. It's the complete opposite, based on all the available evidence. But people are so determined to discredit the ending that they will apply every possible negative headcanon to it.

I like the results of Synthesis, and I hate slavery.

[DecCylonus]

Would Saren have been hailed as a hero for bringing the message that everyone needed to bow down and serve the Reapers? I don't think so. History usually is not kind to the bearers of this message. At best, they are remembered as the person who threw in the towel after their people had been badly beaten. At worst, they are branded traitors. People who resist, even if they lose, are the ones remembered as heros.

Besides, the Reapers have little use for slaves. The only examples we have are the Keepers and the Collectors. One maintains the Citadel. The other were used to study the next cycle and eventually make war on it. Neither were left as free thinking beings after the Reapers were done with their genetic rewrite. What use would the Reapers have for billions of free thinking individuals who decided to serve them?

Modifié par DecCylonus, 11 avril 2013 - 04:17 .

[PwrdOff]

KingZayd wrote...

No. Eternal submission is not preferable to extinction. But I respect that although his campaign started with hate for humanity, in the end he was motivated by concern for the safety of everyone in the galaxy.

Also, I think Saren would pick destroy if given the choice (assuming he chose freely, and wasn't coerced). But then, as destroy seems to me to be the least stupid choice, I see every character that I deem to be intelligent picking destroy.

Eh, the whole liberty or death spiel sounds pretty cool and is used a lot in fiction, but in reality, submission is far from the worst thing.  If all the tribes of Europe had continued fighting the Romans until they were wiped out, the entire continent might still be a backwater to this day.  And in many Islamic countries, the slaves actually became the rulers. 

Then again, the Reapers make abundantly clear that their purpose is to reap, and not to rule, so whatever Saren was suggesting wasn't going to work out anyway.

[Argolas]

Saren was a fool nah, just indoctrinated. The Reapers offered him and all organics a place at their side. Well of course they did, they meant their "ascension".

The Reapers seem to like the kind of deception were you don't actually lie but let your victims think you mean something else.

Modifié par Argolas, 11 avril 2013 - 04:22 .

[Iakus]

KoorahUK wrote...
Not sure I follow your logic. If Saren hadn't been indoctrinated, he was plain wrong.

The Reapers did not want to conquer us in the way the Romans did, where taking slaves from the defeated was an objective of expansion, they wanted to harvest us - that was their sole purpose.

They killed those fighting back because they were an impediment to that harvest, not to punish us for daring to defy them. The 'become our slaves and we will spare you' line is bull****, intended to beguile organics fearful for their lives into dropping resistance. Giving in to the Reapers meant becoming bio-goo or becoming a husk - at best a Collector type race. There is no way Saren was right about anything unless the Reapers entire purpose was different. 

And no, Synthesis isn't the same thing as waht Saren was talking about.

here's where the question came from:

One of the big reasons people use to justify the endings is "The Reapers are too powerful, a sacrifice has to be made or everyone dies"  

Okay, but Saren had a plan:  have organics prove themselves useful to the Reapers and they'll be spared.  They'll be slaves, but alive.  We know the Reapers were just feeding Saren a line.  But if we pretend for a moment that it was a genuine offer, how does that compare to Shepard's choice at the end of ME3? 

Would Saren be any different from Shepard?  Would Shepard be any different from Saren? 

[PwrdOff]

Anderson - We need to destroy the Reapers or we're all screwed!
Illusive Man - We need to control the Reapers or we're all screwed!
Saren - We need to synthesize with the Reapers or we're all screwed!

[Argolas]

BNN999 wrote...

Anderson - We need to destroy the Reapers or we're all screwed!

Every non-indoctriated friend of Shepard would yell at him/her to do that. Anderson just happens to be the only one who is present.

[PwrdOff]

Argolas wrote...

BNN999 wrote...

Anderson - We need to destroy the Reapers or we're all screwed!

Every non-indoctriated friend of Shepard would yell at him/her to do that. Anderson just happens to be the only one who is present.

Yeah but Anderson is the best fit for this triumvirate given the dual father figure relationship with him, TIM, and Shepard, and also his extensive history with Saren.

Modifié par BNN999, 11 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[dreamgazer]

 Seival's thread on the matter might provide a few ... uh, "answers".

http://social.biowar...ndex/14588548/1

[Argolas]

dreamgazer wrote...

 Seival's thread on the matter might provide a few ... uh, "answers".

http://social.biowar...ndex/14588548/1

It's easy to do a Q&A with yourself

[DecCylonus]

iakus wrote...

here's where the question came from:

One of the big reasons people use to justify the endings is "The Reapers are too powerful, a sacrifice has to be made or everyone dies"  

Okay, but Saren had a plan:  have organics prove themselves useful to the Reapers and they'll be spared.  They'll be slaves, but alive.  We know the Reapers were just feeding Saren a line.  But if we pretend for a moment that it was a genuine offer, how does that compare to Shepard's choice at the end of ME3? 

Would Saren be any different from Shepard?  Would Shepard be any different from Saren? 

So the choice becomes grovel, try to prove useful and justify your existence; or fight, and maybe win your freedom and your life. Which boils down to sacrifice your freedom and maybe gain your life; or fight, and maybe gain your freedom and your life.

I think the choice is pretty clear. The Reapers aren't gauranteeing to let you live if you decide to serve them. They see you as cattle and will only keep you around if it pleases them. Given those options, I would rather fight. Why serve a pernicious, megalomaniacal race of machines who see me as a tool and might decide to end me at any time? If I and enough others choose to fight, we might win and be rid of them. If we lose and we all die, then at least we took a few of them with us, and their attempt to enslave us cost them something.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Yes, yes, another attempt to paint using the Crucible as a surrender. Now the only question is whether this is meant to be a pro-successful Refuse statement or a pro-Destroy statement which tries to paint itself as being separate from other choices based on questionable logic.

[Rhayak]

No. He was badly indoctrinated. Through hardware, even, not merely by Reaper Signal. MAYBE you can persuade him to struggle free long enough to kill himself.

His idea of merging organics and machines would've indeed been the abomination Synthesis-bashers always field.

[SiriusXI]

Saren was right! Just look at Synthesis. It's the "best ending". So all Synthesis supporters should just let the Reapers and Saren win in Mass Effect 1. Shepard is really the bad guy trying to prevent the glorious combination of Machine and Flesh! The glorious Huskification!

This is brilliant Bioware! We were playing the bad guy all along, but we weren't realizing that we were the bad guy. Brilliant idea!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

iakus wrote...

So, pretending for a moment that Saren was right, and not indoctrinated, that if organics had surrendered to the Reapers, they would have been enslaved rather than killed for resisting, would Saren have been the hero?

I ask this given the Crucible results.  How different would Saren have been from Shepard with those choices?

We know that the physical-alteration of organics is not optional in Synthesis.

Moving beyond that, however, is moving into the realm of speculation. There's nothing to indicate your assertions that, in Crucible option, the galaxy loses their freedom of choice (what to say of being Reaper slaves). Your speculation is just that: speculation, based on hysteria of all-things-not-Destroy (a fear that dominates BSN).

So, how different? Very different.