22 réponses à ce sujet

[x12o]

This post is mainly for Bioware staff regarding any possible dialog for releasing the source code for Neverwinter Nights 1. After doing a topic search through the NWN1 forums, I didn't really come across any real text involving this subject. Due to the fact that Neverwinter Nights 1 is still actively played (despite being over ten years old), combined with recent shutdown of the Gamespy server list being removed and official support for the game ending, I would like to know if having Bioware release the source code for Neverwinter Nights 1 may be a real possibility. This would essentially move future support and development to a development community for the game.

My questions:
1)  Could the source code of NWN1 being released to the community for future active development ever be a possibility?

2)  What is the correct process to Bioware to ensure the correct people read and consider such a request (i.e., requests sent to an executive office, legal department)?

3)  What sort of legal impact would there be on any community development from Bioware? (e.g., use of the name "Neverwinter Nights", "Bioware", etc.)

___________________________________________
Some reasons why I am making this request:
a) The final game still contains some bugs that may not be fixable without access to source code.
 Release date was prior to 2003, so at least ten years have passed.
c) Such a release running concurrently with the recent announcement of "Jedi Knight" source code release may improve Bioware's standing as an active game developing company.
d) Neverwinter Nights 1, which is still loved by many to this day, can continue to be played and improved upon for years or even decades to come.
e) Future purchasers of Bioware games may have increased incentive to purchase Bioware games in the event of possible source code release (older games are often still the best).

___________________________________________
I formally and respectively request help with these questions and any assistance Bioware staff and administrators may be able to provide. Thank you.

Best Regards.

[ffbj]

Slim and None, and Slim just left town.

[painofdungeoneternal]

From my understanding, there is no Bioware staff which has enough expertise to deal with the source code left any more, the people have either moved to new positions, or left for other companies, but even if they wanted to, they'd have to get an engineer up to speed to even make changes to the code, or work out exactly what would be needed to do this ( to identify which parties provided what pieces ).

There are companies re-releasing the source code for these games after refactoring it ( ie baldurs gate on iPad ), which makes it still an asset of some sort, it still would be nice to get it re-released for other platforms in the future thus reinvigorating the player base. Not to mention it uses some third party libraries, which could not be released, and it would require agreement among many parties and their lawyers. It would be great to have happen, but would not be something that could compile without recreating quite a few portions.

Note that we do have symbols in the community ( tightly held since terrible things can be done if released to those who don't have the games interests at heart ), and the ability to replace portions of the running game process with our own code. This is what NWNx is at a basic level, either targeting the server, or targeting the actual game via the client extender called NWNCX. This requires some knowledge of assembly and debuggers, but the community is just now starting to move past modding the server and into modding the client.

This means you can take a function of the game code, find it's address in memory which calls it, and replace how it works with your own C code, using something called "microsoft detours". This is just starting to happen for NWN1, but it's already set up to have a plugin architecture so multiple programmers can do different plugins for it and how the NWNCX program puts the gamespy listing back in the game. Virusman even has set it up so many NWNx plugins can be loaded into single player.

For NWN2 skywing has done a lot more of this, but did not set it up as a plugin system, nor does it support NWNx plugins. However he's got working solutions in various spots which completely redo the scripting engine ( so it's more like C# and much faster ), redo the games networking ( ie 2 people from the same lan cannot destroy a PW anymore, and speed increases ), redo the resource loader ( areas that took 2 minutes to load can now take 10 seconds ), redo path finding. I am sure he's done more, but it's hard to keep track of all the features involved.

At some point there will be enough scraped out and replaced, that it won't actually be using any original code.

( it's actually interesting because NWN2 and NWN1 projects are playing off of each others ideas, building on each other like with the gamespy fixes, and coming up with unique improvements for each game as Virusman, Skywing, and even Peachykeen have discussed what they are doing among themselves. Ideally we get people to port features done for one to the other soas to reach parity, and even get similar solutions for the mac side. I am working to someday rise to the skill level needed to even be able to really contribute. )

There is nothing technically stopping us from doing what we'd be doing with source code being released, except perhaps needing to learn a disassembler. Assuming we get people to all focus on NWNCX and the NWNx project as where this is organized, the question should be what features would you like if you had access to the source code.

[FunkySwerve]

x12o wrote...
 After doing a topic search through the NWN1 forums, I didn't really come across any real text involving this subject.

That says a lot more about the quality of the forum search tool than it does the amount of text on the subject. It's been raised many times before. Short answer is it's still not likely to happen. Bioware is no longer owned by Ataari, and Ataari no longer has the rights to use of the ip from WotC. Further, the engine was sold for use by other companies in the not-too-distant past.

That said, It'd sure make my hobbying a lot simpler. *turns blue holding breath*

Funky

[Empyre65]

I asked about this years ago, before Bioware was bought by EA. It was explained to me that Bioware cannot legally release the source code because it has AD&D's rules integrated deeply into the code.

[x12o]

Thank you very much for the information, everyone. Such a shame. I would've loved to see this. If anything, just to see the code get a proper place in the 'tomes' of RPG gaming history. I've always wanted to see an RPG of this caliber use all open-source formats for everything (animation, music, etc.) But if the bugs can be fixed without the code, then there is no need.

I remember there used to be a bug regarding the WM feat Whirlwind Attack hanging after usage in combat when performed in a module running on a Linux server (or perhaps Linux client). I was told once that the only way to fix this was in the code itself. But I found a topic on the nwnx.org site that apparently fixes the problem.

Thanks again.

[Shadooow]

x12o wrote...

original post

well written, hopefully are chances are bigger than most folks thinks, we would really use it, NWNX is nice but adding different combat concepts (eg. diablo,WoW style) and other new features are beyond hook code possibilities.

BTW where you found the informations about the linux WW bug? I havent know its fixed, if so I must have missed it.

[FunkySwerve]

I'd like to see that WW code as well. It's been a continuing nuisance for years now.

Funky

[painofdungeoneternal]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
 and other new features are beyond hook code possibilities.

You need to open your mind to what is possible.

The limitations are no different than if we had the source code.

( The old way was limited to just the server which was the reason for previous limitations, NWNCX allows us to hook both client and server )

[Shadooow]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
 and other new features are beyond hook code possibilities.

You need to open your mind to what is possible.

The limitations are no different than if we had the source code.

( The old way was limited to just the server which was the reason for previous limitations, NWNCX allows us to hook both client and server )

even with client hooks, I dont think its possible to alter combat engine to diablo click style for example

and btw AFAIK only one who has windows client debugging symbols is virusman himself and from some reasons he refuses to share it (I dont remember the reasons he had, something with bioware I recall? Anyway - this is OT and I dont blame him just stating facts), at least he didn't provided them to me and I would like to think I have done enough for this community to prove I dont abuse it. Noone else I asked have access to them also, but you are right I havent asked you - do you have access to client debugging symbols?

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 avril 2013 - 09:15 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

Your argument is imaterial, if we had source code, we would also have the same trouble implementing diablo, which is a different engine with different choices. The more you change, the harder it is to make sure your changes fit into the rest of the engine. Eventually you might as well just write a new game. If Virusman, or someone with his skill level wanted NWN2 to be like Diablo, I can't see anyone stopping him, but then I'd have to ask why. If you look at what i listed skywing did for NWN2 with his client extender, i think you'd understand that replacing entire portions of the game is possible.

I don't have them. But then if you know how to use them, you don't need them anyway. It's a non issue.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 12 avril 2013 - 03:40 .

[FunkySwerve]

Have you ever tried looking at NWN in an IDA? I don't think you'd be calling it a non-issue, if you had. Lack of access to source makes modifications FAR more difficult and time-consuming - so much so that there are many things acaos, author of more NWNX plugins than anyone else, doesn't think it feasible to do. I don't mean complete engine changes, either.

Funky

[virusman]

While it is true that there are virtually no limitations on what is possible with hooking/replacing the existing code, difficulty of this varies greatly. Something that can be done in 30 minutes with source code & recompile may take several weeks or months of coding with hooks and patches.

[Shadooow]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Your argument is imaterial, if we had source code, we would also have the same trouble implementing diablo, which is a different engine with different choices. The more you change, the harder it is to make sure your changes fit into the rest of the engine. Eventually you might as well just write a new game. If Virusman, or someone with his skill level wanted NWN2 to be like Diablo, I can't see anyone stopping him, but then I'd have to ask why. If you look at what i listed skywing did for NWN2 with his client extender, i think you'd understand that replacing entire portions of the game is possible.

I don't have them. But then if you know how to use them, you don't need them anyway. It's a non issue.

Hmm maybe you are right and only things that stops several peoples who want to do such changes is their low skill level. I simply thought that its not possible. I even hear that sometimes from virusman. But you're right, everything is possible with enough time and skill level. Perhaps you are more experienced with c++ than I am so you could do things that I fail to do. What I know is that if I had source code, I would be able to add a secondary parameter into function (one that calculates metamagic cost to be specific), but my skill is too low to even think about overload a function via hooking.

Either way, open access to the source delays and sometimes even stops further development on things we would like to do.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 12 avril 2013 - 05:44 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

It creates a barrier of needing higher skill to do the same work, totally agree, but the barrier of not having source code is a lot more difficult to crawl over.

For example Wozniak first did video games via computer chips on a circuit board, higher skill level than writing such code in C or assembly, and takes a lot longer. Each higher level language, circuits, assembly, C, nwscript makes it so more people can implement changes, makes it easier and faster.

I am not an expert in assembly, or IDA Pro ( and don't assume i've not been in it either), however after given the addresses and direction by ARPL, i was able to take his rough code and implement some very nice changes into a working NWNx plugin, set up options and the rest since suddenly they were now in C where i could adjust things. This is entirely based on my skill level, at one point I couldn't understand nwscript either, nor could i even do a plugin before this. So much in this community is done built on the shoulders of other modders who have come before.

But also much requires on each of us to rise to the challenge. Source code unfortunately is not an option, especially while they are still re-releasing old games on new platforms, so while this is not easy, it's also our only option. I see what Virusman, Peachkeen, Acaos, Skywing, etc etc have done, and I see this as something to aspire to. Of course at the same time I have to do other things which are more important now using my own unique skills.

I only want people to see the new opportunities, and not focus on the barriers. NWNCX if you think about it, "a plugin architecture for single player that also lets us use many NWNx plugins", not to mention the ability to mod the client like hak load order ( new base classes anyone?) , replacing gamespy, that just makes me think that given time this is going to have dramatic improvements just like i saw in NWN2.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 12 avril 2013 - 06:39 .

[leo_x]

Here's to hoping the source is released, I'd love to see it, even if it meant the community would fracture off into different "Neverwinter Nights". Failing that the client debugging symbols become openly available (which, contrary to some of what has been said above, would /greatly/ simplify the task of modding the client). I'll not place odds on either happening. 

Modifié par pope_leo, 12 avril 2013 - 07:57 .

[Asymmetric]

I think there are also some issues because of the D&D license. WoTc/ Hasbro would object if Bioware/Atari were to release the source code ... and Atari is bankrupt. Problems over Problems.

Nevertheless it would be awesome if we could get our hands on the source.

[Drewskie]

Asymmetric wrote...

I think there are also some issues because of the D&D license. WoTc/ Hasbro would object if Bioware/Atari were to release the source code ... and Atari is bankrupt. Problems over Problems.

Nevertheless it would be awesome if we could get our hands on the source.

Yea, it's Chapter 11 for Atari.  Last I heard they were looking to sell off their "assets" and go to the mobile market exclusively.  NWN is one of those assets, I assume.

[NWN_baba yaga]

To bad that they have not separated the renderer from the rest of the aurora engine so at least this part could be released as there is no interest left to anyone imo. The renderer is buggy anyway here and there but o well......

the ugly alpha blending bug and that transcluent textures are never rendered the way the texture´s alpha is like is a real question why bioware coders never fixed that.

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 14 avril 2013 - 05:34 .

[Melkior_King]

As far as WOTC is concerned, I wouldn't expect them to take much interest in restricting distribution of a 10+ year-old game. They seem to have released prior versions of the D&D gaming system (including 3.0) to the public domain, or at least they're not enforcing their rights. If they started to grumble about the nwn community "owning" nwn 1, we could point out that the principle is the same.

[NWN_baba yaga]

Someone could email them but i fear an answer like:

thank you for your inquiry but we have no plans on releasing any source material from any game (the one you talk to might dont even know the existence of nwn) that we have published in the past (where they arent even the publisher but...) and blah blah.

or they tell you to write to atari... hehe atari! Then you get the email like ...

Thank you for your question. I´m just a bot and cant answer anything and i´m already sold sorry!

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 14 avril 2013 - 06:51 .

[Malagant]

Melkior_King wrote...

As far as WOTC is concerned, I wouldn't expect them to take much interest in restricting distribution of a 10+ year-old game. They seem to have released prior versions of the D&D gaming system (including 3.0) to the public domain, or at least they're not enforcing their rights.

3.0 (and by it's extention 3.5) are governed under the Open Gaming Licence and the d20 System License and, as of June 2008, the Game System License. Any property can build off of the System Reference Document (basically the core mechanics minus character creation, advancement, and any content WotC deemed copyrighted works, thus you'll find no creatures like Beholders and no names referencing Greyhawk in the spells, etc.) It was rolled out this way from the get go.

This use is perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, and non-exclusive as long as the use is accompanied by a copy of the OGL with all the Copyrights updated to credit the contributors of all OGC that was used. This is why you see 3e related content being produced and why Pathfiner exists without any legal maneuvering by WotC or Hasbro. The OGL does not extend to computer media, which is governed under different and exclusive licensing.

I believe WotC did make some dependency clause with 4e that basically stated that if one produced any 4e related content, they could not also produce any content under 3e's OGL any longer.

Modifié par Malagant, 14 avril 2013 - 09:03 .

[WebShaman]

This is the most interesting thread to hit the front page in a long time! I gathered so much information here that I was not aware of, it isn't funny!

Thanks for all the contributions, I am off to search and dl!