187 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

^ Potentially, would love to see the Black Divine brought into the picture to liven things up. Tevinter Imperium vs Orlais could make for some interesting politics.

Given the Black Chantry is basically the Chantry that's taken the other path regarding mages, that would be interesting.

And I could totally see them undermining the Chantry's authority, perhaps in a bid to start reforming the old Imperium.  Perhaps by recruiting all these former Circle mages...

[BlazingSpeed]

Plaintiff wrote...

Allowing a "neutral" path is a total cop-out and would totally defeat the purpose of giving the player difficult questions to answer.

You mean like the Conner situation in DA:O? Also although I know people around this forum hate Witcher compairsions but in the first game Geralt's netural path had Geralt trying to solve the current probelm while both "sides" were after Geralt for thier own reason as they were trying to kill each other in an all out war.

There were still hard choices to make during all of that.

[XX-Pyro]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Allowing a "neutral" path is a total cop-out and would totally defeat the purpose of giving the player difficult questions to answer.

You mean like the Conner situation in DA:O? Also although I know people around this forum hate Witcher compairsions but in the first game Geralt's netural path had Geralt trying to solve the current probelm while both "sides" were after Geralt for thier own reason as they were trying to kill each other in an all out war.

There were still hard choices to make during all of that.

Exactly like the Conner situation in DA:O. There is nothing wrong with the options being there, but the fact that it had no negative consequences in that particular situation was ridiculous. Occasionally, the neutral option can have a benefit to it as well if it makes sense for whatever choice that may be, but when you just get a get out of jail free for picking a specific option it takes away the thinking portion of the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Allowing a "neutral" path is a total cop-out and would totally defeat the purpose of giving the player difficult questions to answer.

You mean like the Conner situation in DA:O?

I suspect the Connor situation is exactly what people are trying to avoid, but in doing so I think they're missing the actual issue.  The connor situation in DAO would have offered exactly the same choices, even if the third option would have resulted in the death of everyone in Redcliffe, and the loss of Arl Eamon as an ally.

A choice should be judged on the choice itself, not the consequences.

[LobselVith8]

Suramina wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think a compromise is realistic when the mages want to be free of the templars,

Are you saying all mages want the exact same thing ?

I'm saying there's a reason characters say that a war is inevitable. And I'm certainly not interested in playing another game where my choices are meaningless. I'm not interested in restoring the status quo. And I don't think it's realistic when two warring factions are vying for the exact opposite of one another.

Suramina wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

and the templars want dominion over the mages.

Are you saying all templars want the exact same thing ?

No, but enough mages and templars do that it's acknowledged at the end if Dragon Age II that a war between the two seems inevitable.

Suramina wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The two groups want the exact opposite of the other.

Since when was there only two groups? isnt this a gross simplification

I already addressed this on the prior page. Given the dialogue between Varric and Cassandra, the story sets up mages fighting to maintain their autonomy, and templars trying to shatter it. There are clearly going to be different groups across the entire continent, but that's partly why I think peace is unrealistic. Different people have different goals, but there are likely going to be mages fighting for their freedom, and templars hunting them down. All the Circles broke free of the Chantry; the Order of Templars left the Chantry to hunt down the mages. Both factions are vying for the exact opposite of the other, with likely exceptions among both that don't change the fact that there's likely going to be a war between mages and templars. 

Sutamina wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And for people to want to side with one over the other, it would make our actions meaningless to reset everything back to the status quo. 

whats the status quo? mage-templar war or pre mage-templar war 

The status quo that existed for a millennia, that I consider to be slavery.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2013 - 01:28 .

[Medhia Nox]

LobselVith8: Much like the vocal minorities that plague the internet - it doesn't take a large group (or a majority of a minority) to start a rebellion.

To win it - that's another matter.

The mages are screwed just like Senior Enchanter Torrin foreshadows in the Mage Origin.

[Palidane]

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

For example, when a young mage is discovered, he is brought to the Circle for training. There's no choice in this, but parents can come and visit him. Templars are not allowed inside the tower without the express permission of the First Enchanter. On the other hand, mages are not allowed outside the tower without the Knight Commander's OK. Young mages get to be educated about their magic and learn to use it wisely. Students can take field trips and go places, they just have to have an escort. If they pass their harrowing and get the First Enchanter and Knight Commander's ok, they can move to wherever they want. They have to check in with the local chantry whenever they're travelling and have to have yearly inspections by local templars, but other than that are free to go about their business.

Would that be acceptable? Maleficars either fail the harrowing or get a Templar hit squad after them, and law abiding mages get to have normal lives. Common people don't have to worry about an abomination coming out of nowhere and burning the village down, and Templars aren't constantly at odds with the mages.

Modifié par Palidane, 13 avril 2013 - 02:57 .

[Zarathiel]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

For example, when a young mage is discovered, he is brought to the Circle for training. There's no choice in this, but parents can come and visit him. Templars are not allowed inside the tower without the express permission of the First Enchanter. On the other hand, mages are not allowed outside the tower without the Knight Commander's OK. Young mages get to be educated about their magic and learn to use it wisely. Students can take field trips and go places, they just have to have an escort. If they pass their harrowing and get the First Enchanter and Knight Commander's ok, they can move to wherever they want. They have to check in with the local chantry whenever they're travelling and have to have yearly inspections by local templars, but other than that are free to go about their business.

Would that be acceptable? Maleficars either fail the harrowing or get a Templar hit squad after them, and law abiding mages get to have normal lives. Common people don't have to worry about an abomination coming out of nowhere and burning the village down, and Templars aren't constantly at odds with the mages.

That's pretty much what I think an ideal solution would look like.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

LobselVith8: Much like the vocal minorities that plague the internet - it doesn't take a large group (or a majority of a minority) to start a rebellion.

To win it - that's another matter.

The mages are screwed just like Senior Enchanter Torrin foreshadows in the Mage Origin.

All the Circles of Magi emancipated from the Chantry. I don't see why you think it's a minority. And I think the mages could maintain their autonomy, with the right leadership.

[SgtElias]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

*snip*

Based on what you've described, as a mage supporter I'd be willing to seriously consider that sort of compromise--with some further refinement. Most importantly, that the templars in your scenario be completely divorced from the Chantry; that is, be a standing force of men and women with templar abilities that doesn't answer to the Chantry at all.

Also, at least for me, that while schooling would be mandatory for youngsters that are still learning to harness and control their powers, they'd be allowed to leave and live their lives afterward. Not if they had something to offer, not if they'd jumped through a thousand hoops, not if the Knight Commander or First Enchanter were feeling generous. After they passed their tests, they can leave. The end.

There are some other things that I find important, but those are the two that sprang to mind first.

I'm sure that this would be woefully inadequate for some people, and too much of a compromise for others. But, personally,  if the offer presents itself in Inquisition, I'll probably consider it, if the above conditions are met.

[Palidane]

SgtElias wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

*snip*

Based on what you've described, as a mage supporter I'd be willing to seriously consider that sort of compromise--with some further refinement. Most importantly, that the templars in your scenario be completely divorced from the Chantry; that is, be a standing force of men and women with templar abilities that doesn't answer to the Chantry at all.

Also, at least for me, that while schooling would be mandatory for youngsters that are still learning to harness and control their powers, they'd be allowed to leave and live their lives afterward. Not if they had something to offer, not if they'd jumped through a thousand hoops, not if the Knight Commander or First Enchanter were feeling generous. After they passed their tests, they can leave. The end.

There are some other things that I find important, but those are the two that sprang to mind first.

I'm sure that this would be woefully inadequate for some people, and too much of a compromise for others. But, personally,  if the offer presents itself in Inquisition, I'll probably consider it, if the above conditions are met.

When I said they required the Knight Commander's and First Enchanter's approval, I meant they have to be a reasonably moral, stable individual, not some psycho maleficar who's going to slit his wrists and call up demons the second he's out the door. They can't be someone the First Enchanter has reservations about, like Jowan, who embraced blood magic because he wasn't popular enough.

 Your first concession is a lot more of a problem. That is an agreement between mages and the government of the nation they live in. Your trying to get the Chantry to revoke their authority over mages, which would only happen if an army of mages was knocking on the doors of the Grand Cathedral itself. Which means you have an army of mages inside the capital of Orlais. I don't see how you can defeat the Chantry, if you even get close, then they call an Exalted March and the mages get massacred. People respect the templars (outside of Kirkwall) and the Chantry, and hate and fear the mages. There no way you can strike down a pillar of society in a cataclysmic battle of fire and lightning and then expect the terrified peasants to be cool with you later.

[Fredward]

SgtElias wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

*snip*

Based on what you've described, as a mage supporter I'd be willing to seriously consider that sort of compromise--with some further refinement. Most importantly, that the templars in your scenario be completely divorced from the Chantry; that is, be a standing force of men and women with templar abilities that doesn't answer to the Chantry at all.

Also, at least for me, that while schooling would be mandatory for youngsters that are still learning to harness and control their powers, they'd be allowed to leave and live their lives afterward. Not if they had something to offer, not if they'd jumped through a thousand hoops, not if the Knight Commander or First Enchanter were feeling generous. After they passed their tests, they can leave. The end.

There are some other things that I find important, but those are the two that sprang to mind first.

I'm sure that this would be woefully inadequate for some people, and too much of a compromise for others. But, personally,  if the offer presents itself in Inquisition, I'll probably consider it, if the above conditions are met.

I'm cool with this yeah. Though I think mages who are planning to stay in like a city should also give their location to some kind of local authority. But yeah templars need to be totally separated from the Chantry. Waaaaay past time dem hatemongers returned to being run-o-the-mill religious bigots.

[grumpymooselion]

andy69156915 wrote...

Because I don't know if I want to support mages fully, but at the same time I think the Chantry is corrupt and way too powerful and I definitely don't want to support it either. I'm worried DA3:I is going to be like DA2 where even if you think both Templars and mages are being foolish and moronic (I did and still do every time I play DA2), you had to choose one of them. I don't want to be forced to pick a side I don't fully agree with simply because the plot wants me to. At the very least, I want there to be an option to tell both sides to screw off and have the plot written to handle that choice too. Being forced to pick a side when you think both sides are full of sh*t is not fun, like having the choice between drinking bleach or drinking rat poison.

Oddly enough the obvious third option of siding with the Divine would have been very different than siding with the Templars or the Mages. And the Divine headed that branch of the Chantry in Kirkwall. Being able to actually side with the Chantry, as such, rather than the nutty Templar who had obviously gone too far . . . would have really given view of how different two sides of the same coin can be.

[SgtElias]

Palidane wrote...

When I said they required the Knight Commander's and First Enchanter's approval, I meant they have to be a reasonably moral, stable individual, not some psycho maleficar who's going to slit his wrists and call up demons the second he's out the door. They can't be someone the First Enchanter has reservations about, like Jowan, who embraced blood magic because he wasn't popular enough.

I wasn't trying to imply that someone who was a suspected blood mage, or noticably mentally unstable, should be allowed to run about after passing their Harrowing. I was taking issue with the fact that a system where every individual mage had to have permission to leave after they'd proven themselves trustworthy was a problem for me; it's a power dynamic that could easily be abused. Obviously those suspected of participating in nefarious activities should be watched carefully or even held for a time, but such a thing should occur after evidence has been gathered, and perhaps even after a trial has happened.

Your first concession is a lot more of a problem. That is an agreement between mages and the government of the nation they live in. Your trying to get the Chantry to revoke their authority over mages, which would only happen if an army of mages was knocking on the doors of the Grand Cathedral itself. Which means you have an army of mages inside the capital of Orlais. I don't see how you can defeat the Chantry, if you even get close, then they call an Exalted March and the mages get massacred. People respect the templars (outside of Kirkwall) and the Chantry, and hate and fear the mages. There no way you can strike down a pillar of society in a cataclysmic battle of fire and lightning and then expect the terrified peasants to be cool with you later.

Personally, I think if the templars have actually seceded from the Chantry (as Asunder mentioned), it's entirely possible that the mages will gain at least some public support for their cause. Particularly from countries like Rivain, Ferelden, and the Free Marches. Not to mention that if the leaked survey is anything to go by (and who knows? It might not be), the world is in such a state of flux that now is probably the optimal time for the mages to rebel and have a decent shot at achieving their goals.

I suppose it boils down to the fact that, personally, I don't believe the Chantry has done a particularly great job with the Circle system. In fact, I see it as a gross injustice; as such, I feel extremely uncomfortable saying that after all this bloodshed and effort, it's perfectly fine to give control of the mages back to the organization that villified and abused them in the first place.

As to your point about the population being hostile to mages living near them--yeah, I assume that this is going to be a problem. There's going to be discrimination, with or without the Chantry's blessing, and I think it's pretty much inevitable; that doesn't mean that it isn't a goal worth working toward.

Anyway, my two cents.

Modifié par SgtElias, 13 avril 2013 - 09:40 .

[CrazyRah]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

For example, when a young mage is discovered, he is brought to the Circle for training. There's no choice in this, but parents can come and visit him. Templars are not allowed inside the tower without the express permission of the First Enchanter. On the other hand, mages are not allowed outside the tower without the Knight Commander's OK. Young mages get to be educated about their magic and learn to use it wisely. Students can take field trips and go places, they just have to have an escort. If they pass their harrowing and get the First Enchanter and Knight Commander's ok, they can move to wherever they want. They have to check in with the local chantry whenever they're travelling and have to have yearly inspections by local templars, but other than that are free to go about their business.

Would that be acceptable? Maleficars either fail the harrowing or get a Templar hit squad after them, and law abiding mages get to have normal lives. Common people don't have to worry about an abomination coming out of nowhere and burning the village down, and Templars aren't constantly at odds with the mages.

That's absolutely a system that i can accept. As long as both the first enchanter and the Templar in charge are sane i'm alright with this

[Noctis Augustus]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

For example, when a young mage is discovered, he is brought to the Circle for training. There's no choice in this, but parents can come and visit him. Templars are not allowed inside the tower without the express permission of the First Enchanter. On the other hand, mages are not allowed outside the tower without the Knight Commander's OK. Young mages get to be educated about their magic and learn to use it wisely. Students can take field trips and go places, they just have to have an escort. If they pass their harrowing and get the First Enchanter and Knight Commander's ok, they can move to wherever they want. They have to check in with the local chantry whenever they're travelling and have to have yearly inspections by local templars, but other than that are free to go about their business.

Would that be acceptable? Maleficars either fail the harrowing or get a Templar hit squad after them, and law abiding mages get to have normal lives. Common people don't have to worry about an abomination coming out of nowhere and burning the village down, and Templars aren't constantly at odds with the mages.

I will be fighting for equality among mages and non-mages at the very least. The Circle should be mandatory until the harrowing and there's actually a training for it, and the templars should be disbanded and a new force should be made of mages and non-mages... and is not affiliated to the chantry. They can rule, have a family and a job. That or the imperial chantry's system.

I hope Bioware also gives us the option to support Tevinter and offer the other nations to them on a golden plate.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 13 avril 2013 - 02:46 .

[Noctis Augustus]

Palidane wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

*snip*

Based on what you've described, as a mage supporter I'd be willing to seriously consider that sort of compromise--with some further refinement. Most importantly, that the templars in your scenario be completely divorced from the Chantry; that is, be a standing force of men and women with templar abilities that doesn't answer to the Chantry at all.

Also, at least for me, that while schooling would be mandatory for youngsters that are still learning to harness and control their powers, they'd be allowed to leave and live their lives afterward. Not if they had something to offer, not if they'd jumped through a thousand hoops, not if the Knight Commander or First Enchanter were feeling generous. After they passed their tests, they can leave. The end.

There are some other things that I find important, but those are the two that sprang to mind first.

I'm sure that this would be woefully inadequate for some people, and too much of a compromise for others. But, personally,  if the offer presents itself in Inquisition, I'll probably consider it, if the above conditions are met.

When I said they required the Knight Commander's and First Enchanter's approval, I meant they have to be a reasonably moral, stable individual, not some psycho maleficar who's going to slit his wrists and call up demons the second he's out the door. They can't be someone the First Enchanter has reservations about, like Jowan, who embraced blood magic because he wasn't popular enough.

 Your first concession is a lot more of a problem. That is an agreement between mages and the government of the nation they live in. Your trying to get the Chantry to revoke their authority over mages, which would only happen if an army of mages was knocking on the doors of the Grand Cathedral itself. Which means you have an army of mages inside the capital of Orlais. I don't see how you can defeat the Chantry, if you even get close, then they call an Exalted March and the mages get massacred. People respect the templars (outside of Kirkwall) and the Chantry, and hate and fear the mages. There no way you can strike down a pillar of society in a cataclysmic battle of fire and lightning and then expect the terrified peasants to be cool with you later.

You're seriously underestimating the mages. Besides we're playing with a character that might be able to play with politics, find support and will become one of the most powerful mortal beings in the world of Thedas. Don't tell me that isn't possible if the right choices are made.

[PillarBiter]

 @OP: **** yeah, I'm forming my own band! Joint he club of the warden and the HAwke! Nobody lives but us!

[LobselVith8]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Palidane wrote...

When I said they required the Knight Commander's and First Enchanter's approval, I meant they have to be a reasonably moral, stable individual, not some psycho maleficar who's going to slit his wrists and call up demons the second he's out the door. They can't be someone the First Enchanter has reservations about, like Jowan, who embraced blood magic because he wasn't popular enough.

Your first concession is a lot more of a problem. That is an agreement between mages and the government of the nation they live in. Your trying to get the Chantry to revoke their authority over mages, which would only happen if an army of mages was knocking on the doors of the Grand Cathedral itself. Which means you have an army of mages inside the capital of Orlais. I don't see how you can defeat the Chantry, if you even get close, then they call an Exalted March and the mages get massacred[/b]. People respect the templars (outside of Kirkwall) and the Chantry, and hate and fear the mages. There no way you can strike down a pillar of society in a cataclysmic battle of fire and lightning and then expect the terrified peasants to be cool with you later. 

You're seriously underestimating the mages. Besides we're playing with a character that might be able to play with politics, find support and will become one of the most powerful mortal beings in the world of Thedas. Don't tell me that isn't possible if the right choices are made.

True. This has happened in the past. The Baroness was able to sway the people of Blackmarsh by defeating the High Dragon, so the same might be possible for the protagonist. Queen Anora notes that the Hero of Ferelden is seen as being "blessed by the Maker" for his actions, and Irving notes his surprise at hearing people talking positively about a mage. I think an effective mage leader could gain ground with the common people.

Also, I don't see how the Chantry can rely on an Exalted March with their army going renegade - and a war between mages and templars taking place across the continent.

[Medhia Nox]

@Lobselvith8: Even were I not the main protagonist - and were I a mage in Thedas (my class of preference) I would be at least one mage against the rebellion. I would be using every spell at my disposal to crush this rebellion as well.

Basically - Jim Jones, in the form of Anders, forced the Circles to drink the cool-aid because he was afraid big government was crushing his hopes and dreams. I see Anders and the rebels as nothing more than fanatics who have taken a worthy cause (reform) and completely distorted it for their own twisted ends.

All the Circles - are not all the mages.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Lobselvith8: Even were I not the main protagonist - and were I a mage in Thedas (my class of preference) I would be at least one mage against the rebellion. I would be using every spell at my disposal to crush this rebellion as well.

While, if I were a mage, I would never submit to Chantry rule. I would fight for freedom from tyranny. Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Basically - Jim Jones, in the form of Anders, forced the Circles to drink the cool-aid because he was afraid big government was crushing his hopes and dreams. I see Anders and the rebels as nothing more than fanatics who have taken a worthy cause (reform) and completely distorted it for their own twisted ends.

Anders didn't force anyone to think there was something gravely wrong with the Chantry controlled Circles.

Medhia Nox wrote...

All the Circles - are not all the mages.

Enough mages seemed to have followed suit for characters to think a war is inevitable. Cassandra certainly hoped that a pro-mage Hawke could persuade the mages to back down.

[EdwinLi]

 Actually the Choices we have is to side with one side and escolate the war or find a way to end this conflict before it begins which will save both sides. 

[Senya]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Basically - Jim Jones, in the form of Anders, forced the Circles to drink the cool-aid because he was afraid big government was crushing his hopes and dreams. I see Anders and the rebels as nothing more than fanatics who have taken a worthy cause (reform) and completely distorted it for their own twisted ends. [/quote]

Anders didn't force anyone to think there was something gravely wrong with the Chantry controlled Circles.

[/quote]

Flinging a match into a powder keg isn't exactly innocent.

It is one thing to understand why Anders did what he did, but it is another to condone it.

Personally, I want to bring down extremists like Anders, Meredith, and Orsino so the two sides can sit and talk.

[TJPags]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, a question to all the pro-mages out there: would you be willing to accept a reformed circle system?

For example, when a young mage is discovered, he is brought to the Circle for training. There's no choice in this, but parents can come and visit him. Templars are not allowed inside the tower without the express permission of the First Enchanter. On the other hand, mages are not allowed outside the tower without the Knight Commander's OK. Young mages get to be educated about their magic and learn to use it wisely. Students can take field trips and go places, they just have to have an escort. If they pass their harrowing and get the First Enchanter and Knight Commander's ok, they can move to wherever they want. They have to check in with the local chantry whenever they're travelling and have to have yearly inspections by local templars, but other than that are free to go about their business.

Would that be acceptable? Maleficars either fail the harrowing or get a Templar hit squad after them, and law abiding mages get to have normal lives. Common people don't have to worry about an abomination coming out of nowhere and burning the village down, and Templars aren't constantly at odds with the mages.

Very similar to a suggestion I've made in the past.

I think it's a perfect solution.

[Ziegrif]

So... just kill everyone?
Mages, Templars, Jaywalkers, especially the Jaywalkers.