44 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You didn't answer his question at all.

I have to agree with Enigmatick.

I can see how the origins themselves might limit one's character concept but that's separate from Dunan's narration, which is there to make sure the player knows what the PC knows.

The PC knows nothing about the existence of The Maker, The Black City  and shouldn't be exposed with such ridiculous notion especially from the perspective of Dallish Elven PC Origins and Dwarven PC Origins.

It's a point (but shaky; see Reamlzmaster's post). This said, it doesn't railroad you.

Seriously, if you really want an RPG experience where you're sole master on board, don't look for it in video games. For that matter, even PnP railroads you and gives you info on the setting you're playing in. I'd suggest writing original fiction.

Modifié par Sutekh, 12 avril 2013 - 08:54 .

[Black Jimmy]

Kate Mulgrew or Claudi Black or Brian Bloom if it fits with what happens in game.
It'd beed to be someone from the game and it has to work as part of the narrative as a whole (ie Duncan, Leader of the Grey Wardens gave us the history of the Wardens and the Darkspawn, Varric is a storyteller and is currently being interrogated.

I'm going to say, whoever voices Celene, assuming she's alive. Or The Divine. They seem the most relevant. Until we find out more that is.

[Fiacre]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You didn't answer his question at all.

I have to agree with Enigmatick.

I can see how the origins themselves might limit one's character concept but that's separate from Dunan's narration, which is there to make sure the player knows what the PC knows.

The PC knows nothing about the existence of The Maker, The Black City  and shouldn't be exposed with such ridiculous notion especially from the perspective of Dallish Elven PC Origins and Dwarven PC Origins.

Of course the PC knows? A human noble definitely does -- someone who plays one (first) should probably know that as well. The same would go for both elven and human mages. City elves generally believe in Andraste and the Maker, and they'd surely have heard of the story as well. I very, very much doubt that the Dalish are ignorant to human society -- they'd certainly know about the Maker, and they'd most likely know about the story of the darkspawn's origins. (I mean, come one, this is hardly the first Blight, and there weren't even tribes to cut themselves off from humans back when the first one happened.) Unless Aeducan is a completely unedcutaed moron, he knows as well, considering that the dwarves trade Lyrium with -- guess who -- the Chantry. And one would expect that he'd hopefully know the commonly believed origin story of the creatures that are driving his people towards extinction. (Also, as was said, there are dwarves who believe in the Maker, like Burkel.) The only one who one could reasonably expect not to know is Brosca.

And I'm not sure where you get the idea from that Duncan explaining a bit of the backstory to the player -- something a character who grew up in that world is actally very, very likely to know -- and saying, like, two sentences at the end of the game is anywhere close to the function Varric has and that Bioware used one to justify the other. Did they actually say that anywhere or are you just making stuff up?

Personally, I don't need a narrator, though i don't mind it either. I rather like how it was done in Kingdoms of Amalur, and I found both the opening narration of Origins and the Awakening one useful to give me some of the info my character would likely already have. I wouldn't necessarily mind a Varric style narrator (the only railroading that really neccessated was that a) Varric would survive and that you'd finsih the main story and that the fallout would lead to him being interrogated, which is hardly more railroading than there was in DA:O, where Morrigan always survives and the Blight always ends), but I don't really care.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Fiacre wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You didn't answer his question at all.

I have to agree with Enigmatick.

I can see how the origins themselves might limit one's character concept but that's separate from Dunan's narration, which is there to make sure the player knows what the PC knows.

The PC knows nothing about the existence of The Maker, The Black City  and shouldn't be exposed with such ridiculous notion especially from the perspective of Dallish Elven PC Origins and Dwarven PC Origins.

Of course the PC knows? A human noble definitely does -- someone who plays one (first) should probably know that as well. The same would go for both elven and human mages. City elves generally believe in Andraste and the Maker, and they'd surely have heard of the story as well. I very, very much doubt that the Dalish are ignorant to human society -- they'd certainly know about the Maker, and they'd most likely know about the story of the darkspawn's origins. (I mean, come one, this is hardly the first Blight, and there weren't even tribes to cut themselves off from humans back when the first one happened.) Unless Aeducan is a completely unedcutaed moron, he knows as well, considering that the dwarves trade Lyrium with -- guess who -- the Chantry. And one would expect that he'd hopefully know the commonly believed origin story of the creatures that are driving his people towards extinction. (Also, as was said, there are dwarves who believe in the Maker, like Burkel.) The only one who one could reasonably expect not to know is Brosca.

The general city elves maybe the believer but not all human subscripe to the existence of Maker. It applies to both Cousland and Amell origins.

Fiacre wrote...

And I'm not sure where you get the idea from that Duncan explaining a bit of the backstory to the player -- something a character who grew up in that world is actally very, very likely to know

According to who? To you? Do you even know anything about my character? The Dallish have been avoiding human contact for centuries and just because a few dallish merchants trade with human doesn't make a  Dallish PC automatically knows or even care about the human stupid faith. My Aeducan certainly would never want to bother with the human surfacers stupid chantry's teaching.

Fiacre wrote...

-- and saying, like, two sentences at the end of the game is anywhere close to the function Varric has and that Bioware used one to justify the other. Did they actually say that anywhere or are you just making stuff up?

They don't have to. They keep telling they want to tell a story and direct player's experience in single line. Third person narrator is precisely a good way  for them to shove that down the player's throat.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Sutekh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You didn't answer his question at all.

I have to agree with Enigmatick.

I can see how the origins themselves might limit one's character concept but that's separate from Dunan's narration, which is there to make sure the player knows what the PC knows.

The PC knows nothing about the existence of The Maker, The Black City  and shouldn't be exposed with such ridiculous notion especially from the perspective of Dallish Elven PC Origins and Dwarven PC Origins.

It's a point (but shaky; see Reamlzmaster's post). This said, it doesn't railroad you.

Seriously, if you really want an RPG experience where you're sole master on board, don't look for it in video games. For that matter, even PnP railroads you and gives you info on the setting you're playing in. I'd suggest writing original fiction.

What? Are you forgeting that Skyim and open world RPG allow you to be the sole master on the board, packed with creator creation kit just for you to write your own story or alter the world itself? Do you see any unreliable narrator commenting the PC's journey in TES or Fallout etc..?  

[Chiramu]

It shouldn't have narration. Narration would only work in a play where you set the scene before the actors move on stage. In a video game which can imitate a movie more there should be no narration imo, SHOW NOT TELL. That's what all script-writing teachers tell you.

[Zeldrik1389]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Enigmatick wrote...

You didn't answer his question at all.

I have to agree with Enigmatick.

I can see how the origins themselves might limit one's character concept but that's separate from Dunan's narration, which is there to make sure the player knows what the PC knows.

The PC knows nothing about the existence of The Maker, The Black City  and shouldn't be exposed with such ridiculous notion especially from the perspective of Dallish Elven PC Origins and Dwarven PC Origins.

It's a point (but shaky; see Reamlzmaster's post). This said, it doesn't railroad you.

Seriously, if you really want an RPG experience where you're sole master on board, don't look for it in video games. For that matter, even PnP railroads you and gives you info on the setting you're playing in. I'd suggest writing original fiction.

What? Are you forgeting that Skyim and open world RPG allow you to be the sole master on the board, packed with creator creation kit just for you to write your own story or alter the world itself? Do you see any unreliable narrator commenting the PC's journey in TES or Fallout etc..?  

okay, here's the thing:
1/ you do realize that there's a "skip" function right? If you don't like it, just freakin skip the narration. It's there for a reason.
2/ From what I see, the majority of players have no problem with DA narrators, heck, Varric's narration was actually one of the few good things of DA 2. And now you are suggesting that BioWare should ignore the majority, and just get rid of narration to please the minority (like yourself)? Get real.
3/ It's only in YOUR opinion. In MY opinion, I dislike all TES games because of the almost no story thing. There's no purpose, no specific goal. All you do is wandering around doing random quests, etc.. Now some people like you like to create your own tale, I don't have any problems with that. But many players, like myself, playing games as if it's a tale's being told by a story teller (I personally have really great memories of sitting next to camfire and listen to my grandfather tales, that's why I love stories being told by a good narrator). So let's think about it, what would be better? Put the narrator in the game, and give the players the option to skip it in case they don't like it. Or getting rid of the narrator for good, satisfy some people, but people who love narration will be displeased. If you were the developer, which one is a better choice? Stop and think before complaining please.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 13 avril 2013 - 12:12 .

[Il Divo]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

According to who? To you? Do you even know anything about my character? The Dallish have been avoiding human contact for centuries and just because a few dallish merchants trade with human doesn't make a  Dallish PC automatically knows or even care about the human stupid faith. My Aeducan certainly would never want to bother with the human surfacers stupid chantry's teaching.

Doesn't matter what you want your character to bother with. In life, you don't only pick up on facts you're interested in hearing. It's simply knowledge considered wide-spread or common to the setting.  

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 avril 2013 - 12:13 .

[Fiacre]

Il Divo wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

According to who? To you? Do you even know anything about my character? The Dallish have been avoiding human contact for centuries and just because a few dallish merchants trade with human doesn't make a  Dallish PC automatically knows or even care about the human stupid faith. My Aeducan certainly would never want to bother with the human surfacers stupid chantry's teaching.

Doesn't matter what you want your character to bother with. In life, you don't only pick up on facts you're interested in hearing. It's simply knowledge considered wide-spread or common to the setting.  

This. Even if your character doesn't believe in the Maker -- mine certainly never do -- it will be shoved down their throats, if they want it or not. There is knowledge that's just so commonly spread that regardless of your opinion of it, you will have heard of it. And unless you want to play your Warden as either extremely dense or extremely ignorant... (Which, btw, the game actually allows you to do, if you want to. It still gives you, the player, that knowledge in case you don't want your character to be ignorant on stuff that is common knowledge in a world they grew up in. Doesn't sound like rail roading to me. Quite the opposite, actually.)

And if you want to bring up Skyrim... A bit more knowledge about what the **** is going on in this world would have certainly been appreciated by me. After all, my character has lived there his whole life, while I had just picked up an Elder Scrolls game for the first time.

And yes, they do need to say if Duncan's narration was somehow the inspiration for Varric, because the two are used in completely different ways.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
okay, here's the thing:
1/ you do realize that there's a "skip" function right? If you don't like it, just freakin skip the narration. It's there for a reason.

1/ I'm  would freakin skip the narration it if there's any in DA 2.
 

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

2/ From what I see, the majority of players have no problem with DA narrators, heck, Varric's narration was actually one of the few good things of DA 2. And now you are suggesting that BioWare should ignore the majority, and just get rid of narration to please the minority (like yourself)? Get real.

2/ Since when you have the ability to know what the majority of players' problem? Do you have a stat or a poll? Varric's narration is responsible for many bad things about DA 2. It's an immersion breaker. A driver for a single railroad train. A crappy storyteller who assume to know everything including what inside players mind, motivation and emotion. An unreliable observer who set everyting in stone, way ahead of the player.. Etc... 

Zeldrik1389 wrote... 
3/ It's only in YOUR opinion.

Yes, Yes that's my opinion and you are welcomed to disagree. I do not need to prove anything.

Zeldrik1389 wrote..

In MY opinion, I dislike all TES games because of the almost no story thing. There's no purpose, no specific goal. All you do is wandering around doing random quests, etc..

You never set your own purpose and goal. You rely everything to be spoon feed to you no matter how suck it is. That's the problem. Have you ever think for once about your very own purpose and goal? Do you honestly believe people wandering around doing random quest for nothing? 

Zeldrik1389 wrote..


Now some people like you like to create your own tale, I don't have any problems with that. But many players, like myself, playing games as if it's a tale's being told by a story teller (I personally have really great memories of sitting next to camfire and listen to my grandfather tales, that's why I love stories being told by a good narrator). So let's think about it, what would be better? Put the narrator in the game, and give the players the option to skip it in case they don't like it. Or getting rid of the narrator for good, satisfy some people, but people who love narration will be displeased. If you were the developer, which one is a better choice? Stop and think before complaining please.

I would add the skip button, but learning from DA 2's story and BioWare's view, Options and skipping any part of game content is something they're no so interested to do. I don't expect them to pay attention to my "complain". They never do. That's not why I post here. I only answering the op and the stating the reason. You can disagree with me and it doesn't concern me. I think I have answered enough arguments against my opinion for today, so I just take my leave.    

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 13 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[ForceXev]

It should be a female. We have had male narrators twice now. Kate Mulgrew / Flemeth would be my first choice, and Claudia Black / Morrigan second. If it's a new character... Jennifer Hale or Tricia Helfer. Love those two ladies.

[Plaintiff]

Chiramu wrote...

It shouldn't have narration. Narration would only work in a play where you set the scene before the actors move on stage. In a video game which can imitate a movie more there should be no narration imo, SHOW NOT TELL. That's what all script-writing teachers tell you.

All script-writing teachers will also tell you that these are guidelines, not hard rules.

All script-writing teachers will also tell you that if your movie is set in a fantasy world, some introductory "telling" to establish the scene may in fact be necessary. See: virtually every fantasy movie ever.

[Zeldrik1389]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
okay, here's the thing:
1/ you do realize that there's a "skip" function right? If you don't like it, just freakin skip the narration. It's there for a reason.

1/ I'm  would freakin skip the narration it if there's any in DA 2.
 

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

2/ From what I see, the majority of players have no problem with DA narrators, heck, Varric's narration was actually one of the few good things of DA 2. And now you are suggesting that BioWare should ignore the majority, and just get rid of narration to please the minority (like yourself)? Get real.

2/ Since when you have the ability to know what the majority of players' problem? Do you have a stat or a poll? Varric's narration is responsible for many bad things about DA 2. It's an immersion breaker. A driver for a single railroad train. A crappy storyteller who assume to know everything including what inside players mind, motivation and emotion. An unreliable observer who set everyting in stone, way ahead of the player.. Etc... 

Zeldrik1389 wrote... 
3/ It's only in YOUR opinion.

Yes, Yes that's my opinion and you are welcomed to disagree. I do not need to prove anything.

Zeldrik1389 wrote..

In MY opinion, I dislike all TES games because of the almost no story thing. There's no purpose, no specific goal. All you do is wandering around doing random quests, etc..

You never set your own purpose and goal. You rely everything to be spoon feed to you no matter how suck it is. That's the problem. Have you ever think for once about your very own purpose and goal? Do you honestly believe people wandering around doing random quest for nothing? 

Zeldrik1389 wrote..


Now some people like you like to create your own tale, I don't have any problems with that. But many players, like myself, playing games as if it's a tale's being told by a story teller (I personally have really great memories of sitting next to camfire and listen to my grandfather tales, that's why I love stories being told by a good narrator). So let's think about it, what would be better? Put the narrator in the game, and give the players the option to skip it in case they don't like it. Or getting rid of the narrator for good, satisfy some people, but people who love narration will be displeased. If you were the developer, which one is a better choice? Stop and think before complaining please.

I would add the skip button, but learning from DA 2's story and BioWare's view, Options and skipping any part of game content is something they're no so interested to do. I don't expect them to pay attention to my "complain". They never do. That's not why I post here. I only answering the op and the stating the reason. You can disagree with me and it doesn't concern me. I think I have answered enough arguments against my opinion for today, so I just take my leave.    

1/ There's an "ESC" button to skip ANY cutscene / narration for both DA:O and DA 2, figured it out first time I've played DA:O and DA 2 on PC. Also My friends said they can skip scenes on Xbox too. Are you sure you even know how to play games?

3/ I set my OWN goal in REAL LIFE. That's what I spent my energy, and creativity on. Why should I waste that on a game? Games are for entertainment, like watching a movie. Do you write script for every movies you watch as well? Or don't tell me in game life is the only life you have. In that case, my bad.

Last: You didn't answer OP at all. You were just ranting on how narration is bad blah blah blah. Op asked who we want as narrator for DA:I He/she already assumed that there will be a narrator for sure. So your "answers" weren't answer at all, more like "off topic ranting", or in MY opinion, troll.

2 and others: Suddenly, I feel too lazy to explain "common senses" to you. You sound too much like a troll to my taste. So, have fun leaving. oh and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Modifié par Zeldrik1389, 13 avril 2013 - 03:33 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Zeldrik1389 wrote...
1/ There's an "ESC" button to skip ANY cutscene / narration for both DA:O and DA 2, at least on PC. Can't say for other platform because I don't play on anything else. Are you sure you even know how to play games?

WoW that's great! Press the ESC button solution. It works in DAO because Duncan's narrative doesn't affect the PC's story, only the origins. It doesn't work for Varric's narration because the entire PC's story is inside the frame of Varric's Narration. Do you even know what's a frame story or a story-inside-a-story is? You don't just press the esc button just to skip the narration. Without Varric's narration, the 3 ACTS would then turn into a disjointed incohensive narration. Wait, that's why DA 2 is so bad. /sarcasm      

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

3/ I set my OWN goal in REAL LIFE. That's what I spent my energy, and creativity on. Why should I waste that on a game?

Why? The same reason you mention below. For entertainment. I enjoy developing my own character at my own pace without the plot forcing me to move forward. It's a purpose and entertainment too. I enjoy creating and living my fantasy in an undefined world, to be anything and to do anything I want. That's a goal and entertainment too. 

Zeldrik1389 wrote...


Games are for entertainment, like watching a movie.

Games are like watching a movie, huh? Great. I'm sure many would disagree with you. But that's your opinion, and I don't care.

Zeldrik1389 wrote...



Do you write script for every movies you watch as well?

I would if I could. The problem is the current medium doesn't allow movies and novel to be interactive.  The creators are so stuck up with "Artistic Integrity" thing. 

Zeldrik1389 wrote...

2 and others: I see there's no point in arguing with you anymore. You sound too much like a troll to my taste. have fun leaving, oh and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Yeah whatever. Have a nice day.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 13 avril 2013 - 03:46 .

[Zarathiel]

Plaintiff wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

It shouldn't have narration. Narration would only work in a play where you set the scene before the actors move on stage. In a video game which can imitate a movie more there should be no narration imo, SHOW NOT TELL. That's what all script-writing teachers tell you.

All script-writing teachers will also tell you that these are guidelines, not hard rules.

All script-writing teachers will also tell you that if your movie is set in a fantasy world, some introductory "telling" to establish the scene may in fact be necessary. See: virtually every fantasy movie ever.

Not to mention, in DAO, we actually got both showing and telling in the opening. It's not like Duncan was narrating over a black screen for five minutes.

[Withidread]

I'm going to brave the flames of this thread and say Sophie Marceau as a yet to be announced character.

[Sutekh]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

What? Are you forgeting that Skyim and open world RPG allow you to be the sole master on the board, packed with creator creation kit just for you to write your own story or alter the world itself? Do you see any unreliable narrator commenting the PC's journey in TES or Fallout etc..?  

TES: from the top of my head, Uriel Septim's opening intro in Oblivion (and I think there's sort of one in Morrowind too, narrated by Azura?), sets the stage, just like Duncan's intro. Not mentioning the books who tell the story of the various TES past heroes (ie: you, if you played the past games), sometimes forcing actions on them you never took (mentions of Morrowind's Nerevarine leaving Vvardenfell for unknown destinations in Oblivion) .

Those narrators do exactly what Duncan does: they tell the player about the current plot background. In Oblivion, for instance, your character doesn't always know about the Daedra or Oblivion itself, just like your Warden might not know about the Black City - which Duncan doesn't mention, btw; he mostly talks about Darkspawn and the Grey Wardens, i.e. the topics at hand.

Just like Uriel's, Duncan's intro isn't there to railroad your character, but to inform the player. First of the Darkspawn situation, then - very briefly and very vaguely - of your PC general background. It's pure exposition.

The origin narration is necessary, because your character doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a setting around which the player needs to know if he wants to roleplay. e.g. How can you create a Dalish if you know nothing about them? The same thing is done in TES (from Arena to Skyrim), except it's via the little texts you get when creating your PC, in the manual and later in the books. It's less "in-game", but it's there just the same. The only difference is the form.

The bottom line is: as soon as you enter someone else's setting, you're not sole master on board. You may have different amount of leeway, but you're still playing with toys created by others and following others' rules.

Modifié par Sutekh, 13 avril 2013 - 06:51 .

[Il Divo]

Sutekh wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

What? Are you forgeting that Skyim and open world RPG allow you to be the sole master on the board, packed with creator creation kit just for you to write your own story or alter the world itself? Do you see any unreliable narrator commenting the PC's journey in TES or Fallout etc..?  

TES: from the top of my head, Uriel Septim's opening intro in Oblivion (and I think there's sort of one in Morrowind too, narrated by Azura?), sets the stage, just like Duncan's intro. Not mentioning the books who tell the story of the various TES past heroes (ie: you, if you played the past games), sometimes forcing actions on them you never took (mentions of Morrowind's Nerevarine leaving Vvardenfell for unknown destinations in Oblivion) .

Those narrators do exactly what Duncan does: they tell the player about the current plot background. In Oblivion, for instance, your character doesn't always know about the Daedra or Oblivion itself, just like your Warden might not know about the Black City - which Duncan doesn't mention, btw; he mostly talks about Darkspawn and the Grey Wardens, i.e. the topics at hand.

Just like Uriel's, Duncan's intro isn't there to railroad your character, but to inform the player. First of the Darkspawn situation, then - very briefly and very vaguely - of your PC general background. It's pure exposition.

The origin narration is necessary, because your character doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's a setting around which the player needs to know if he wants to roleplay. e.g. How can you create a Dalish if you know nothing about them? The same thing is done in TES (from Arena to Skyrim), except it's via the little texts you get when creating your PC, in the manual and later in the books. It's less "in-game", but it's there just the same. The only difference is the form.

The bottom line is: as soon as you enter someone else's setting, you're not sole master on board. You may have different amount of leeway, but you're still playing with toys created by others and following others' rules.

Pretty much this.

[Senya]

^^

Same.

And, I think, it'd be interesting for Varric to do the introduction. Say what you will of Dragon Age II: Varric was awesome and would have made a better male romanceable character than Fenris and Anders. Probably Sebastian as well.