935 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

cerberus1701 wrote...

PirateMouse wrote...

Here's a question for those who picked Destroy ...

Would you still pick Destroy if it required you to kill all quarians?

All asari?

All turians?

All humans?

All organics?

How far are you really prepared to go? How far does the end justify the means for you?

Said it before, say it again.

I'd sacrifice ANY one race, Asari, Human. Whatever.

The freedom to choose our own path is worth any single race.

I don't have to justify Destroy. Control is viable if you go Deist (Shep fixes Relays, takes robo-squid army and leaves, never to return.)

Synthesis? With Destroy you can scream "Genocide" all day, but there isn't even a word in human language to describe the war crime that is Synthesis.

Actually, there is, genocide.  It is quite literally the definition, when you take into account any life that's just crawling from it's version of the primordial ooze is now the same as everyone else.  It's entire culture was killed before it even had a chance to evolve one.

[kleindropper]

remydat wrote...

[*]The planet had an atmosphere and you could see blots that were land masses or oceans.  Low gravity planets tend to be like the moon ie little to no atmosphere and basically just surrounded by the vacuum of space.

So no, once a planet has an atmosphere there is no soft landing.  You have to be going at ridiculous speeds to enter a planet's atmosphere.  Otherwise, you would bounce off the atmosphere back out into space.  The speed for earth is like 17.5 thousand miles an hour which is why most objects that come from space just burn up before every reaching the ground.

Felix Baumgartner did not jump from space.  He jumped from 127 thousand feet or 40km which puts him within the Earth's atmosphere, the stratosphere to be precise.  The earth's exosphere ie the part of the atmosphere that exists right before space is at around 100km.  Felix also was only travelling 840 miles an hour not the required 17,500 if he fell from space.  Again, any slower than that and you would richocet of the Earth and into space which was the main problem they were trying to figure out towards the end of the movie Apollo 13 as with their thrusters damaged, they had to calculate the re-entry point precisely so that Earth's gravity could naturally provide enough speed.  Otherwise, they would bounce off never to return.

So yeah that N7 armor is sweet but it doesn't come programed to figure out the re-entry velocity of some random planet in space, calculate the re-entry point so that you don't careen off into space, magically create a jet pack that speeds an unconscious Shep up enough to exceed re-entry speeds and then magically create enough drag for him to slow down and come to a soft landing. 

But you don't care because you liked the fact you got to play with Shep again.  You only care about the green wave because you don't like it.  I suppose you are going to also try and tell me the science behind biotics like warp, singularity, flare, dark channel, etc, lol.

I dismiss your entire re-entry arguement since it is based on an Earth re-entry model. Gravity and atmosphere are major considerations and cannot be dismissed.  If you visit the crash site, Shepard does need a mask and the sky is black so it likely has a very thin atmosphere.  Also we don't know how Joker had the Normandy's relative velocity and position to the planet. Maybe he had it set up for a soft landing.   

Back to my original point, as you can see, I can easily rationalize an intact Shepard corpse that could be revived but Synthesis still makes zero sense. 

[remydat]

kleindropper wrote...



[*]I dismiss your entire re-entry arguement since it is based on an Earth re-entry model. Gravity and atmosphere are major considerations and cannot be dismissed.  If you visit the crash site, Shepard does need a mask and the sky is black so it likely has a very thin atmosphere.  Also we don't know how Joker had the Normandy's relative velocity and position to the planet. Maybe he had it set up for a soft landing.   

Back to my original point, as you can see, I can easily rationalize an intact Shepard corpse that could be revived but Synthesis still makes zero sense. 

But the problem here is MEU never explains any of this.  You are complaining about something not being explained but because you like Shep alive you are sitting here and trying to ratiionlize something the game never explains.  So the point is, this has nothing to do about the game not explaining something.  You don't like something so you refuse to try and rationalize it or accept anyone else trying to rationalize.  That's fine you don't have to but pretending like you don't like it when things are not explained is a bit disingenuos when you happily try to rationalize how things work that the game does not explain.  Show me in detail where mass relays, eezo, singularity, warp or any other biotics are explained so we can actually understand they they really work?

Now on to you rationalizing the fall.  Shep is outside the ship.  The Normandy's relative velocity is irrelevant because Shep is outside the ship.  If the Astronauts of Apollo 13 left their ship, they don't magically retain the speed of the Appollo 13.  They don't come equiped with an engine and thrusters to maintain their speed or orbit.  Shep floating in space has to generate his own speed in order to enter a planet's atmosphere otherwise he remains in orbit or if he starts to fall he would richochet off the planet and careen back into space because he has not reached the re-entry velocity.

And no the sky being black has nothing to do with a thin atmosphere.  Absolutely nothing.  Nor does the mask have to do with a thin atmosphere.  All it proves is the atmosphere is likely not made up of OXYGEN.  Finally, Shep's armor was separated from him and in pieces.  That is why Legion has a piece of it.  There is no f**king way a body survives virtually intact when pieces of his armor broke off.  If they broke off when he hit the ground that means the force was enough to shatter armor and so there is no way Shep could withstand that without his body  turned to mush.  If it broke off during the descent then the speed he was travelling had to be fast enough to generate enough heat to separate pieces of his armor which means it is hot enough to torch his body.  So no your rationilization makes no sense.  Of course, you won't care because you like Shep alive because you wanted to play ME2 and ME3 so you will ignore this impossible sh*t which is the point.

Modifié par remydat, 14 avril 2013 - 04:45 .

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

You mean that there will always be conflict between synthetics and organics? Guess what. There will also always be conflict between organics and organics. Look around. We on earth are all the same species and we still don't seem to get along.

I think the difference is Star Brat probably doesn't think organic vs organic will wipe out all organic life.  He didn't see evidence of organic races exterminating each other to the point that no organic life exists anywhere.

[remydat]

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, there is, genocide.  It is quite literally the definition, when you take into account any life that's just crawling from it's version of the primordial ooze is now the same as everyone else.  It's entire culture was killed before it even had a chance to evolve one.

Something emerging from the primordial ooze doesn't have a culture.  An amoeba has culture?  Furthermore, a Krogan hybrid and a Salarian hybrid still have their culture.  Their history and culture remain unchanged.  If they still want to fight and kill each other because of the Genophage they can.  So no culture is destroyed.  A change in DNA does kill one's culture.

[robertthebard]

remydat wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Actually, there is, genocide.  It is quite literally the definition, when you take into account any life that's just crawling from it's version of the primordial ooze is now the same as everyone else.  It's entire culture was killed before it even had a chance to evolve one.

Something emerging from the primordial ooze doesn't have a culture.  An amoeba has culture?  Furthermore, a Krogan hybrid and a Salarian hybrid still have their culture.  Their history and culture remain unchanged.  If they still want to fight and kill each other because of the Genophage they can.  So no culture is destroyed.  A change in DNA does kill one's culture.

...and now, they will never have it, because Shepard jumped into the beam.  The Yahg, who indeed do have a culture, have had that ripped away from them to make them "the same" as everyone else.  This is the very definition of genocide.  Sorry if you don't want to accept it, but I didn't write the dictionary, and I didn't define the word.  Their culture was killed by a Shepard that chose to genetically rape them, and according to the dictionary, that's genocide.  It's more genocide that killing EDI, or as you are fond of pointing out, the geth when the Quarians kill them on Rannoch.

It's convenient now, to headcanon that they aren't the same, even though that's what the whole point was, right?  Or maybe the inconvenient truth about what Synthesis really does is too unpleasant, or unpalatable for you to handle, so you have to deny that it's what happens?  I can own what happens in my ending.  In my ending, the Reapers win because Harbinger blew me up.  When I wanted a NG+ I can own any potential consequences, when they are properly labeled, but you can't accept that a very literal definition of a concept is what happens in one of the "everybody lives" scenarios?  Denial much?

[S.A.K]

Geth are pretty much the only race I will sacrifice. Destroy killing organics don't really make any sense.

[Auld Wulf]

People that think that changing DNA will result in genocide crack me up. There's lots of research being done on just that to cure various illnesses. So when DNA modification via chemotherapy becomes common, will these people be marching back and forth outside of hospitals with placards?

"DNA modification is a war crime!"
"DNA modification is death & genocide!"
"DNA modification is an abomination!"
"DNA modification takes us from our one true, god-given path of evolution!"

I'm sorry, but this makes me giggle.

[Auld Wulf]

S.A.K wrote...

Geth are pretty much the only race I will sacrifice. Destroy killing organics don't really make any sense.

Why? That's not justice. Why do they deserve to die when the orthodox geth have done no wrong other than wanting to survive?

[S.A.K]

Auld Wulf wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Geth are pretty much the only race I will sacrifice. Destroy killing organics don't really make any sense.

Why? That's not justice. Why do they deserve to die when the orthodox geth have done no wrong other than wanting to survive?

There "wanting to survive at any cost" instinct makes them dangarous and allowing the Heretics to just leave makes them unpredictable. I see them as a threat to the future of the galaxy and destruction of the Geth is a small price to stop the Reapers. Besides I don't like Geth. Problem?

[nremies1]

My .02 - destroy.  First time, every time.  You had literally one job, Shepard.  Stop the Reapers.  Any of the other choices is an epic fail in that regard, for a variety of reasons that have been discussed to death elsewhere.

The geth are acceptable casualties if it means that organics are now 100% guaranteed not to be Reaped.  Might organics blow ourselves up in the future?  Maybe.  But at least we'll be alive to try to avoid that, and not Reaper gel.  Sorry, geth dudes.  There's more of us than there are of you.  It all comes down to the numbers.

Is the action objectively ****ty?  Sure.  Shep doesn't sleep well at night and plenty of people have every right to be pissed off at her.  But are a bunch of casualties up-front better than a whole lot more later?  In my/her book, definitely.

Tangentially - to me Destroy is the only option that made sense since it breaks the cycle and organic life is left to stand or fall on its own merits, not under threat of a galactic wipeout from space Cthulhu.  It's about self-determination, which control and synthesis don't give you (yeah Shep can *totally* control the Reapers, which is why the last two guys who tried had such great success.  Synthesis?  Lulz, no thanks, we just need you to blow up the bad guys mmkay?).  It would be great to not have to kill the geth to achieve that goal, but that was the price on the label, so that's what my Shep paid to get it.

tl;dr - Reapers are bad.  Blow them up.  Save majority of sentient life in galaxy.  Profit.

Ninja edit to address sentiment posted while I was typing this - did the geth deserve to die?  Nope.  Life sucks, get a helmet.

Modifié par nremies1, 14 avril 2013 - 05:23 .

[The Twilight God]

Dunabar wrote...

The Geth in my story were not destroyed at earth, but back on Rannoch by the Quarians. Am I doing the whole 'destroy is genocide' thing right?

There is no actual proof in-game for anyone to think the Geth were destroyed either way so the genocide harping is headcanon. The Kid doesn't say the Crucible will destroy Geth, it says synthetics will be targeting and goes on to define synthetic as "technology you rely on" using Shepard's cybernetics as an example. Shepard and Kasumi, whose lives depend on synthetics survived. And all other non-synthesized technology looked fine. The Kid closes by stating nothing will be lost that hasn't already been lost. People are still stuck on the original script which Bioware retconned.

It's not about genocide any form or by any abstract definition.

From a player perspective, you either...
 
A. Trust in and agree with the Reapers' ideology and join them under the assumption that Shepard's 30 odd years of life experience can provide the incite to solve a problem that hyper intellect machines couldn't solve in a billion years. And seek to reap the rewards of their technology.

B. Not trust the Reapers, oppose their ideology and end them. And seek to reap the rewards made possible through the cooperation of existing cultures.

C. Trust in and agree with the Reapers' ideology, rewarding them for their efforts by synthesizing everyone. And seek to reap the rewards of their technology.


1. Do you believe the Reapers?

No. Destroy them.

Yes. Control or Synthesis

2. Do you believe they are 100% correct?
 
No. Control

Yes. Synthesis.

[The Twilight God]

S.A.K wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Geth are pretty much the only race I will sacrifice. Destroy killing organics don't really make any sense.

Why? That's not justice. Why do they deserve to die when the orthodox geth have done no wrong other than wanting to survive?

There "wanting to survive at any cost" instinct makes them dangarous and allowing the Heretics to just leave makes them unpredictable. I see them as a threat to the future of the galaxy and destruction of the Geth is a small price to stop the Reapers. Besides I don't like Geth. Problem?

As if the organic races would be any different if the shoe were on the other foot. You don't respect their particular form of life. Why not just admit that? You wouldn't be alone in that view on these forums.

[Tom Lehrer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

People that think that changing DNA will result in genocide crack me up. There's lots of research being done on just that to cure various illnesses. So when DNA modification via chemotherapy becomes common, will these people be marching back and forth outside of hospitals with placards?

"DNA modification is a war crime!"
"DNA modification is death & genocide!"
"DNA modification is an abomination!"
"DNA modification takes us from our one true, god-given path of evolution!"

I'm sorry, but this makes me giggle.

Willing genetic modification the cures dieses is  very different then an forced alteration that destroys individuality

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf, Synthesis makes organics no longer organic and synthetics no longer synthetic. If such a change is forced upon them, that fits the definition of genocide.

[Dunabar]

The Twilight God wrote...

Dunabar wrote...

The Geth in my story were not destroyed at earth, but back on Rannoch by the Quarians. Am I doing the whole 'destroy is genocide' thing right?

There is no actual proof in-game for anyone to think the Geth were destroyed either way so the genocide harping is headcanon. The Kid doesn't say the Crucible will destroy Geth, it says synthetics will be targeting and goes on to define synthetic as "technology you rely on" using Shepard's cybernetics as an example. Shepard and Kasumi, whose lives depend on synthetics survived. And all other non-synthesized technology looked fine. The Kid closes by stating nothing will be lost that hasn't already been lost. People are still stuck on the original script which Bioware retconned.

It's not about genocide any form or by any abstract definition.

From a player perspective, you either...
 
A. Trust in and agree with the Reapers' ideology and join them under the assumption that Shepard's 30 odd years of life experience can provide the incite to solve a problem that hyper intellect machines couldn't solve in a billion years. And seek to reap the rewards of their technology.

B. Not trust the Reapers, oppose their ideology and end them. And seek to reap the rewards made possible through the cooperation of existing cultures.

C. Trust in and agree with the Reapers' ideology, rewarding them for their efforts by synthesizing everyone. And seek to reap the rewards of their technology.


1. Do you believe the Reapers?

No. Destroy them.

Yes. Control or Synthesis

2. Do you believe they are 100% correct?
 
No. Control

Yes. Synthesis.

All well and good, but the geth are still destroyed by the Quarians in my play through and the Reapers joined them in the deactivated heap along with them. Now, onto B. path.

Modifié par Dunabar, 14 avril 2013 - 05:29 .

[S.A.K]

The Twilight God wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Geth are pretty much the only race I will sacrifice. Destroy killing organics don't really make any sense.

Why? That's not justice. Why do they deserve to die when the orthodox geth have done no wrong other than wanting to survive?

There "wanting to survive at any cost" instinct makes them dangarous and allowing the Heretics to just leave makes them unpredictable. I see them as a threat to the future of the galaxy and destruction of the Geth is a small price to stop the Reapers. Besides I don't like Geth. Problem?

As if the organic races would be any different if the shoe were on the other foot. You don't respect their particular form of life. Why not just admit that? You wouldn't be alone in that view on these forums.

Actually I have nothing against synthatics. Edi is one of my favorite characters in the trilogy. I dislike the Geth for thier actions. If they were an organic race, I'll be doing the same. But this thread is not the place to discuss that.

[Reorte]

kleindropper wrote...
I dismiss your entire re-entry arguement since it is based on an Earth re-entry model. Gravity and atmosphere are major considerations and cannot be dismissed.  If you visit the crash site, Shepard does need a mask and the sky is black so it likely has a very thin atmosphere.  Also we don't know how Joker had the Normandy's relative velocity and position to the planet. Maybe he had it set up for a soft landing.   

Back to my original point, as you can see, I can easily rationalize an intact Shepard corpse that could be revived but Synthesis still makes zero sense. 

Atmospheric pressure 0.83 atm, surface gravity 0.85 g (it's a bigger, more massive, but less dense planet than Earth).

[remydat]

robertthebard wrote...

...and now, they will never have it, because Shepard jumped into the beam.  The Yahg, who indeed do have a culture, have had that ripped away from them to make them "the same" as everyone else.  This is the very definition of genocide.  Sorry if you don't want to accept it, but I didn't write the dictionary, and I didn't define the word.  Their culture was killed by a Shepard that chose to genetically rape them, and according to the dictionary, that's genocide.  It's more genocide that killing EDI, or as you are fond of pointing out, the geth when the Quarians kill them on Rannoch.

It's convenient now, to headcanon that they aren't the same, even though that's what the whole point was, right?  Or maybe the inconvenient truth about what Synthesis really does is too unpleasant, or unpalatable for you to handle, so you have to deny that it's what happens?  I can own what happens in my ending.  In my ending, the Reapers win because Harbinger blew me up.  When I wanted a NG+ I can own any potential consequences, when they are properly labeled, but you can't accept that a very literal definition of a concept is what happens in one of the "everybody lives" scenarios?  Denial much?

They are not the same just because they have synthetic parts added to them.  Their memories, history and culture are the same.  Did you miss the fact that they are still organic?

A Krogan Hybrid still has memories of the genophage.  A change in DNA does not destroy culture.  DNA is science.  Culture is not.  Synthesis adds something to the equation.  It does not remove or obliterate what is already there.  If you think it does then were is this evidence I missed?

Argolas wrote...

Auld Wulf, Synthesis makes organics no longer organic and synthetics no longer synthetic. If such a change is forced upon them, that fits the definition of genocide.

Again you guys are confusing science and culture.  Two completely different things.  I still see Krogan giving birth to Krogan children.  There is no evidence their culture is changed.  In fact EDI says the Reapers add to culture by bringing the cultures of the races that came before.  How is their culture being destroyed if the Reapers still retain and share the knowledge of the cutlures they harvested.  I also see in the below people still sharing things with each other.  I see Samara and Falere sharing a moment together.  I see Quarians and Geth sharing.  Hell I see the Normandy crew remembering the dead which remembering the dead was one of the first things that showed that humans had developed cutlure.

You destroyers can pick the ending you want but Synthesis changes biology and in doing so actually adds to the overall cutlure of the species because it allows them to more easily share and understand each other's culture as the Reapers prove by sharing the culture of the previous races.  So sorry this just seems like a misunderstanding of the ending presented or blatantly misrepresenting it to make your preferred ending seem better.

Modifié par remydat, 14 avril 2013 - 06:03 .

[remydat]

Reorte wrote...

Atmospheric pressure 0.83 atm, surface gravity 0.85 g (it's a bigger, more massive, but less dense planet than Earth).

Haha, good find.  So yeah Shep should be toast or mash potatoes.

[Afroninja367]

PirateMouse wrote...

Here's a question for those who picked Destroy ...

Would you still pick Destroy if it required you to kill all quarians?

All asari?

All turians?

All humans?

All organics?

How far are you really prepared to go? How far does the end justify the means for you?

Well unfortunately, for me it DID kill all humans and everyone else who was on Earth at the time

[Afroninja367]

PirateMouse wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

It would be kind of redundant if it killed all organics.

Here's a question for those who picked Control ...

Would you still pick Control if it required you to enslave all quarians?

All asari?

All turians?

etc.

Of course not ... but "enslaving" all Reapers is hardly equivalent as it only acts against an enemy force (the most terrible enemy force in the history of the galaxy, in fact).  By contrast, killing all synthetics means murdering friendlies and allies.  Your question and attempted analogy would make sense in this context if the Control ending already required you to "enslave" all synthetics.

That said, if you still want to pursue that, make your own thread about it.

I'd do anything to kill EDI!

[Battlebloodmage]

Why are people keep single out the Destroy people? I would stop at humans. Just like the council said, they need to look out for their own people first and Earth could be used as a distraction for the reapers while their own planets prepare for their upcoming fight with the reapers. They screw us over first anyway. If given the choice, each race would want to look out for their own people first.

[Reorte]

remydat wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Atmospheric pressure 0.83 atm, surface gravity 0.85 g (it's a bigger, more massive, but less dense planet than Earth).

Haha, good find.  So yeah Shep should be toast or mash potatoes.

Yeah, the Lazarus project is the second-biggest facepalm moment of the trilogy for me, and could've been so easily avoided by having Shepard just floating off into space (which is much more likely anyway). Bringing someone back from that, whilst completely beyond us now, is something that might in theory work. Arthur C Clarke did it anyway.

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Auld Wulf, Synthesis makes organics no longer organic and synthetics no longer synthetic. If such a change is forced upon them, that fits the definition of genocide.

Again you guys are confusing science and culture.  Two completely different things.  I still see Krogan giving birth to Krogan children.  There is no evidence their culture is changed.  In fact EDI says the Reapers add to culture by bringing the cultures of the races that came before.  How is their culture being destroyed if the Reapers still retain and share the knowledge of the cutlures they harvested.  I also see in the below people still sharing things with each other.  I see Samara and Falere sharing a moment together.  I see Quarians and Geth sharing.  Hell I see the Normandy crew remembering the dead which remembering the dead was one of the first things that showed that humans had developed cutlure.

You destroyers can pick the ending you want but Synthesis changes biology and in doing so actually adds to the overall cutlure of the species because it allows them to more easily share and understand each other's culture as the Reapers prove by sharing the culture of the previous races.  So sorry this just seems like a misunderstanding of the ending presented or blatantly misrepresenting it to make your preferred ending seem better.

It's still genocide even if the culture is not affected. If you made a device that ensures all humans who are born in the future are white you would commit genocide even if you didn't change anything except their skin color.

Modifié par Argolas, 14 avril 2013 - 08:03 .