Do you know how probability works. Dying today is 100% certain. Anything can happen to save you from dying tomorrow as the game proves because Shep saves them in some play throughs hence it is not certain.
Furthermore dying today so that your enemies may live is stupid so this whole taking others with them is laughable. Every single organic race in the galaxy would sacrifice the Geth to save themselves. Every damn one. So choosing extiction to save them is stupid. Darwin would not approve.
There were at least about 20,000 cycles, most (if not all) of them had synthetic species. None of them were spared by the reapers. Assuming that there is even the slightest chance that the reapers may spare the geth is purely naive.
The geth do not consider quarians or organics in general enemies. Legion said in ME2: "We accept the creators' hate."
You know what's the matter? Those are not true geth anymore. Not Legion, not anyone.
"An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered anything the geth aspired to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like us than we thought."
the entire foundation of the game is based on choices or morality so having choice at the end with no moral dilemma would be stupid because 95% of people would chose the morally clean ending.
It has nothing to do with morality or moral dilemma. It has all to do with common sense vs. stupidity.
There are 3 choices that are completely insane and out of place (for a non-indoctrinated) and one rational sane choice. In that regard there is no choice. The Only viable option is Destroy. Ergo, no dilemma or real choice. That's what makes the MEHEM so perfectly apt. It just gets to the point. No need for the Kid as there is no winning path other than destroy anyway.
Just to avoid any confusion, I'm not trying to call you stupid as you are just a guy playing a video game. But Synthesis, Control or Refuse are stupid for Shepard.
But the issue is not whether the Reapers would spare them. The issue is whether they stay alive long enough so thay anyone can save them which the game proves as Shep saves them not the Reapers.
Incidentally fighting never stopped the cycles either but people still tried. Once again any option that allows you to survive extinction as a species is preferrable than extinction. That is basic Darwinism. Tell me what Legion said when extinction was not knocking on their doorstep is irrelevant. If my entire speices would die then there are plenty of things I would accept that I wouldn't if extinction was not on the table.
The Twilight God wrote... Synthesis, Control or Refuse are stupid for Shepard.
Nope, Synthesis and Control aren't stupid for a Shepard who wants EDI and the Geth to survive, and/or a Shepard who wants to ensure that post-war reconstruction isn't harsh on all organic life.
You are confused. We agree DNA is changed. You still seemed confused that DNA is science and culture is anthropology. Black skin does not give me culture. Black skin is just genetics and people use it to ASSUME cultural differences. There is no evidence synthesis results in the loss of culture and the game contradicts this clearly.
Heh, are you serious? Anthropology is every bit as much a science as genetics. I did find the culture definition funny though, since it really is true. That's all that's left that can be shared. What you are talking about isn't science, it's space magic. In more ways than one.
1. That dead civilizations can be stored in the form of paste inside a machine.
So the first question has to be, what form are they stored in? Are they actually stored as individuals, or are they melting potted together into data? If they are melting potted together, how can anyone call them truly alive? I have files on my harddrive. Are they alive? Because essentially, melting potting them together reduces them to pure data. This would indeed preserve the various cultures of that civilization, because believe it or not, it's entirely possible for industrial civilizations to have more than one culture, but they are not alive, any more than a LOKI mech is alive.
If they are alive, do you really believe they want to put people through what they went through to get that way? Isn't more likely that the vast majority of them would welcome death, instead of an eternal life of killing innocent people to create more of them? Since the vast majority of lifeforms harvested to create a Reaper are civilians, just a guess here, since our own military doesn't outnumber our civilians, why would they feel like they were "doing the right thing"? Short answer is indoctrination.
2. That you can jump into a beam, combine your molecules with it, and instantaneously transform every person in the galaxy into organic/synthetic hybrids. Yeah, space magic.
Putting aside the questions of certainty, now this question - cause this is the relevant one:
You can die today, murdered. Or you can die tomorrow, and your murderer dies with you. Still the same choice?
If "my murderer" is a whole species with a lot of innocents in it, yes.
OK. Now, if you die today, your murderer dies tomorrow. If you die tomorrow, they die today. Still the same?
Now this gets ridiculous. I believe I made my point already.
Now it's getting closer to the actual situation. If the Geth's self-preservation is valueless because they're going to die from the Reapers anyway, then a sacrifice to save the Quarians is also valueless because the Quarians are going to die anyway.
The Twilight God wrote... Synthesis, Control or Refuse are stupid for Shepard.
Nope, Synthesis and Control aren't stupid for a Shepard who wants EDI and the Geth to survive, and/or a Shepard who wants to ensure that post-war reconstruction isn't harsh on all organic life.
Your shepard wants the synthetics.Every organic in the galaxy doesn't
But the issue is not whether the Reapers would spare them. The issue is whether they stay alive long enough so thay anyone can save them which the game proves as Shep saves them not the Reapers.
Incidentally fighting never stopped the cycles either but people still tried. Once again any option that allows you to survive extinction as a species is preferrable than extinction. That is basic Darwinism. Tell me what Legion said when extinction was not knocking on their doorstep is irrelevant. If my entire speices would die then there are plenty of things I would accept that I wouldn't if extinction was not on the table.
You are honestly saying that an alliance with the reapers is a sensible choice? You gotta be kidding me.
I tell you what would have been sensible: showing these idiots Gerel and Xen that they are wrong. Instead, they didn't only sit on the quarian's only possible homworld (BIG SHOCK, they came back to reclaim it!), they also did everything they could to prove those morons right. There is only one way they could turn my pro-synthetic Shepard against them and they found it.
You are justifying an alliance with the reapers. It's the most stupid act ever done in Mass Effect. No organic would ever pull such a stupid move unless they are indoctrinated. If you are honestly saying that this is what you would have done as well, we have nothing more to discuss.
The Twilight God wrote... Synthesis, Control or Refuse are stupid for Shepard.
Nope, Synthesis and Control aren't stupid for a Shepard who wants EDI and the Geth to survive, and/or a Shepard who wants to ensure that post-war reconstruction isn't harsh on all organic life.
Your shepard wants the synthetics.Every organic in the galaxy doesn't
Sythetics and organics surviving is the best solution. Just ask the Quarians in the event of peace with the Geth. Then again, I guess you're right that it depends on how you think your Shepard looks at things. I was just disagreeing with the claim that everything other than Destroy is invalid.
Now it's getting closer to the actual situation. If the Geth's self-preservation is valueless because they're going to die from the Reapers anyway, then a sacrifice to save the Quarians is also valueless because the Quarians are going to die anyway.
*sigh* fine, I'll respond.
The geth aren't going to die from the reapers anyway. The geth believe in fighting the reapers. Only heretics don't.
Synthetics don't waste resources on futile projects. The construction of their giant server proves that they believe in defeating the reapers.
And still: If I can trade my life for the survival of millions of innocents, even if some among those are responsible for my death, I do it.
What synthetic race has survived the harvest? None. The Reapers just harvested organics FIRST. That doesn't mean synthetics don't eventually get destroyed. And nowhere did I claim my opinion was fact.
Are the krogan not be punished for their ancestors? How many krogann babies have been stillborn ? Why didn't the galaxy man up instead of punishing babies for what their ancestors did thousands of years ago. Why are their threads where organics argue the genophage should not be cured? Organics and synthetics alike condemn people to die based on what their ancestors did so what i am suggesting with mr super AI has already been presented in the game.
If you don't want to think about the super AI that resulted in the Reapers harvesting for billions of years then don't. I am not forcing you to respond to me. I brought it up because it is relevant to my decision.
I simply said you cherry picking. You could have said yes I am but instead keep telling me why you are cherry picking when I never cared why. I simply made a statement of fact now that you confirmed it.
And synthesis is considered the prefered ending. I don't care whether you believe that or not. I am telling you what I believe. It being the preferred ending doesn't change the fact you are free to choose whatever ending you prefer.
As Robertthebard said, source? And for all we know, past synthetics were destroyed by the organics of their time before the Reapers even arrived, or they opposed the Reapers too. Synthetics were not harvested. there is no need to preserve the life of a species that is basically immortal. Though I will agree that if they were around, they were completely destroyed by the Reapers. Why? Because Synthetics would have kept evoluting, become stronger to the point of becoming a real threat to Reapers, or warn future highly evolved organics. They couldn't allow that.
You can't make the difference between a clear continued threat as determined by Turians and Salarians and a non-existent one for a future AI? Even after the Genophage, Krogans still fought for everything and nothing. The only thing that stops them from overcoming the rest of the Galaxy is that they just don't have the numbers anymore and risk exctinction if they start a new galactic war. After all Krogans weren't going to stop fighting as shown in the Citadel datas. Salarians and Turians could have just killed them all. If you can engineer a virus that limits childbirth, you can engineer one that will outright kill the entire species. This might not be a perfect solution, but hey, it's way better than genocide and never have wars solved conflicts perfectly.That future lolzAI should have to be under an on-going attack to justify the use of self-defence. Pre-emptive strikes are not self-defense, they are agressions, or I could be justified in attacking my new neighbour because I don't like the way his predecessor looked at me and I'm afraid the new one might look at me that way too. Besides, in my game the Galaxy manned up. And the Geth don't condemn the Quarians because of their ancestor's choice, they respond to a clear on-going threat. In fact, they regret it came to this. But you can keep making up upset lolzAI and twisting things around in your mind so that it supports your decision making. At least have the decency to stop presenting your speculations as facts.
What? You don't like my reasoning? Makes too much sense for your comfort?
Again, sources? Evidence? You make reproaches to Robertthebard for not providing evidence about a personal matter between you two, but I notice you never provided me the ones I asked for. Instead I should believe.Amusing. Should I point out I'm a sceptic at heart?
Oh, and since you like the whole: "We are nation..." spiel so much, I'll give you another one. From Legion itself:
The old Machines offered to give us our future. The Geth will achieve their own future. Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara.... Sovereign said it itself: "Your civilisation is based upon the technology of the Mass relays.Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the path we desire.
Sorry I took anthropology in college, it is a social science for a reason. There is no anthropologist that would claim genetics and culture are the same thing. None.
Reapers harvest ALL life organic and SYNTHETIC preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict.
The above statement combined with the fact that there is no synthetic in the game that predates this current cycle is my proof.
Except it is not non-existant. The Catalyst said it observed this threat for a long time before it devised its solution. The threat is stated clearly in the game as the reason for the harvest so it is fact the Catalyst perceived this as a real risk. As for the Krogan, Mordin admits the Salarians knew they were not ready when they were uplifted them. Mordin admits that the psychological impact of the genophage makes the Krogan more aggressive. All you are telling me is it is ok for organics to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors but when an AI does the same, it's bad. Those Krogan babies stillborn committed no crime. None. So killing them was pre-emptive because once again, those babies committed no crime. None.
You don't have to believe anything. I am telling you Synthesis was considered to be the ending that Bioware preferred. If you don't want to believe it then don't.
And that quote was at a time prior to when the Geth faced extinction. It is irrelevant. Extinction has a way of forcing people to accept things they would not normally except. Why? Because if they don't, they will cease to exist.
You keep ignoring the question. Would they have been exterminated without the Reapers? Yes or no?
They would have been exterminated no matter what. After the Reapers were done with the galaxy, the geth would be discarded as used-up tools. The geth simply traded short-term death for a long-term enslavement and eventual death. Yes, they would have died had it not been for the Reapers, but the Reapers would have killed the geth themselves anyway when all was said and done. The geth literally traded death from the quarians for an eventual death from the Reapers. They didn't think in the long-term, obviously.
Reapers harvest ALL life organic and SYNTHETIC preserving them before they are forever lost to this conflict.
The above statement combined with the fact that there is no synthetic in the game that predates this current cycle is my proof.
Except it is not non-existant. The Catalyst said it observed this threat for a long time before it devised its solution. The threat is stated clearly in the game as the reason for the harvest so it is fact the Catalyst perceived this as a real risk. As for the Krogan, Mordin admits the Salarians knew they were not ready when they were uplifted them. Mordin admits that the psychological impact of the genophage makes the Krogan more aggressive. All you are telling me is it is ok for organics to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors but when an AI does the same, it's bad. Those Krogan babies stillborn committed no crime. None. So killing them was pre-emptive because once again, those babies committed no crime. None.
You don't have to believe anything. I am telling you Synthesis was considered to be the ending that Bioware preferred. If you don't want to believe it then don't.
And that quote was at a time prior to when the Geth faced extinction. It is irrelevant. Extinction has a way of forcing people to accept things they would not normally except. Why? Because if they don't, they will cease to exist.
Completely disprovenby Harbinger in ME2. Bring Legion to fight the Collectors. If a Harbinger-possessed drone takes Legion down, you will hear Harbinger analyze Legion: "Geth: an annoyance, limited utility."
Saren says that Soveregin sees them as nothing then tools. NOT harvests. tools.
And THAT'S your arguement on the Catalyst? A statement saying that if a synthetic being said it was alright to jump off a cliff, that's it's the logical thing to do? That we should jump off the cliff because the synthetic said to? On blind faith? Just because said being is synthetic? That doesn't even begin to make sense. The Catalyst devalued life as an equasion. Shepard proved it wrong in the end, and it changed it's formula and made a new solution, and let Shepard - the independent variable - choose which one was best to impliment. Even Mordin atmitts that he made a mistake in altering the genophage, and that he only saw the big picture when the "big picture made up of little pictures. Too many variables." And that this is him setting it right. He admits it was a mistake. That it was bad. So your arguement is out the window yet again.
And if that's true, why was a new Refuse ending put in? And again, they seem to have put equal work in the other endings of the game. AND they had a poll to see which ending people preferred. The answer was Destroy because that's where Shepard lives. That's pretty much the only reason. So, then, WHERE is your proof that Synthesis is what BioWare "preferred" to be the ending?
And accepting the deal with the Reapers is STILL death, because the Reapers will discard them when done. They traded qucik death with the quarians for enslavement and eventual death with the Reapers. You yourself argued with me that the alternitive that makes you live longer is sensless since they die anyway. And yet here you are doing a complete 180 and agreeing with me that the option that ensures you live longer IS the right option when deciding in the here and now? Make up your mind!
Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 avril 2013 - 07:03 .
Sorry I took anthropology in college, it is a social science for a reason. There is no anthropologist that would claim genetics and culture are the same thing. None.
But genetics ARE part of culture. Our genetics give us our senses, which factor into how we percieve things: the foundation for how culture is created. Change genetics, and you change a core part of who you are, and how you percieve things, and by changing how you persieve things, be it through taste, touch, sensory, or even hanar biolumenesience, then you are changing how that lifeform's culture evolves. So YES, the two are irrovocibly linked - one can't exist without the other. So, sorry, but I think you might need to drop that class.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 18 avril 2013 - 07:02 .
I would destroy BSN, does that count?
If I had to kill some space faring races, I probably would. If I had to kill every race in this cycle that is space faring, then that is the price to ending the terror of the Reapers once and for all. They would have died anyway if I hadn't done anything
the entire foundation of the game is based on choices or morality so having choice at the end with no moral dilemma would be stupid because 95% of people would chose the morally clean ending.
It has nothing to do with morality or moral dilemma. It has all to do with common sense vs. stupidity.
There are 3 choices that are completely insane and out of place (for a non-indoctrinated) and one rational sane choice. In that regard there is no choice. The Only viable option is Destroy. Ergo, no dilemma or real choice. That's what makes the MEHEM so perfectly apt. It just gets to the point. No need for the Kid as there is no winning path other than destroy anyway.
Just to avoid any confusion, I'm not trying to call you stupid as you are just a guy playing a video game. But Synthesis, Control or Refuse are stupid for Shepard.
Oooh, I wasn't aware there already was a mod for a nice ending that feels right. Definitely downloading this, because you know, I'm a big softy inside and I like a good ending like any little Krogan pup. It might actually interest me in the single-player part of this game again.
Except it is not non-existant. The Catalyst said it observed this threat for a long time before it devised its solution. The threat is stated clearly in the game as the reason for the harvest so it is fact the Catalyst perceived this as a real risk. As for the Krogan, Mordin admits the Salarians knew they were not ready when they were uplifted them. Mordin admits that the psychological impact of the genophage makes the Krogan more aggressive. All you are telling me is it is ok for organics to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors but when an AI does the same, it's bad. Those Krogan babies stillborn committed no crime. None. So killing them was pre-emptive because once again, those babies committed no crime. None. ...
Actually the reasoning for the genophage is that Krogan reproduction was based on high number of offspring with extremely low survival rates and that uplifting removed this factor. The genophage artificially reintroduced a factor rebalance the system.
It's a bit weird that in a breeding strategy of 1000 offspring per year the emotional effects for a species with 1:1 female ratio would be similar as that of mammals with high investment offspring and low birth rates
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