935 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

remydat wrote...

Robert

Sorry I took anthropology in college, it is a social science for a reason. There is no anthropologist that would claim genetics and culture are the same thing. None.

I'm going to point out the obvious contradiction to this by underlining one word in your reply.  I am beginning to see the problem we are having, and really there's not a lot I can do about it.

[TheWill]

i would have hit destroy even if it wiped out all current organics in the galaxy... so long as synthetics remained...

if were going to think of them as alive then id hit that button and wish them luck so long as they remembered our sacrifice... just as i hope organics would remember the sacrifice of all synthetics for organics to live...

if we recreate synthetics in the destroy future i hope it isnt for personal gain.. or for slave labour.. it should be to honour those that came before...

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas,

You keep ignoring the question. Would they have been exterminated without the Reapers? Yes or no?

I ignore that question because it is irrelevant.

The reason the geth went extinct in my playthrough was their own stupidity. They drove the quarians into exile and took their homeworld, they have no right to act like victims when the quarians come back for it. Both sides commited genocide in the Morning War, yet while all those quarians back then are dead and the current ones are mere victims of their mistakes, the very same geth that did this still rule Rannoch.

The quarians forced the geth's hand to join the reapers? The geth forced the quarian's hands to attack them. And Legion forced my Shepard's hand to destroy it because it would otherwise have uploaded FRICKIN REAPER TECH to its whole species. This is nearly as insane as what TIM did to his soldiers, minus the indoctrination which might as well follow for all I know. Many claimed to have reaper tech under control and it was never true.

As I said before, the geth did about the only thing they could do to turn my Shepard against them. Even if they didn't become extinct, they have already sacrificed anything a true geth would stand for.#

Their final move, the alliance with the reapers, was the most stupid move that they could possibly pull. If you don't see that, as I said, I don't know how to discuss with you.

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

The reason the geth went extinct in my playthrough was their own stupidity. They drove the quarians into exile and took their homeworld, they have no right to act like victims when the quarians come back for it. Both sides commited genocide in the Morning War, yet while all those quarians back then are dead and the current ones are mere victims of their mistakes, the very same geth that did this still rule Rannoch.

The quarians forced the geth's hand to join the reapers? The geth forced the quarian's hands to attack them. And Legion forced my Shepard's hand to destroy it because it would otherwise have uploaded FRICKIN REAPER TECH to its whole species. This is nearly as insane as what TIM did to his soldiers, minus the indoctrination which might as well follow for all I know. Many claimed to have reaper tech under control and it was never true.

As I said before, the geth did about the only thing they could do to turn my Shepard against them. Even if they didn't become extinct, they have already sacrificed anything a true geth would stand for.#

Their final move, the alliance with the reapers, was the most stupid move that they could possibly pull. If you don't see that, as I said, I don't know how to discuss with you.

The geth have evolved even more since then. They are not exactly the same. Plus, the quarians were going to shut them all down. In other words, annihilate them. It's understandable that the geth "overreacted".

Legion didn't stupidly upload Reaper tech to the Consensus. It uploaded a code that it understood and had control of. I approve of this use of technology. Technology is not fundamentally evil.

It's always amusing and frustrating when people try to justify their Destroy choice by shaming and misrepresenting the geth.

Edit: The argument can be made that Legion can't be trusted with the code. Meta-gaming, however, proves that the code is completely safe. Also, if I did not have a chance to make peace, I would side with the quarians because of the simple fact that I know the entire species won't betray the galaxy. The geth are a bit too concerned with their own self-preservation, and I can't guarantee that they won't panic again. Again, meta-gaming proves that they don't, but I'm still concerned about future misunderstandings with them. I do believe, however, that the geth are more in the right than the quarians, which is what makes that choice so difficult.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 02:54 .

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Legion didn't stupidly upload Reaper tech to the Consensus. It uploaded a code that it understood and had control of. I approve of this use of technology. Technology is not fundamentally evil.

The geth themselves disagree with that point.

Legion: An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered anything the geth aspired to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Legion didn't stupidly upload Reaper tech to the Consensus. It uploaded a code that it understood and had control of. I approve of this use of technology. Technology is not fundamentally evil.

The geth themselves disagree with that point.

Legion: An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered anything the geth aspired to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

What happens when you discover a technology, study it, understand it, adapt it, and use it? Is that not achieving something on your own terms?

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Legion didn't stupidly upload Reaper tech to the Consensus. It uploaded a code that it understood and had control of. I approve of this use of technology. Technology is not fundamentally evil.

The geth themselves disagree with that point.

Legion: An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered anything the geth aspired to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

What happens when you discover a technology, study it, understand it, adapt it, and use it? Is that not achieving something on your own terms?

Read the quote again. Geth even reject that.

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Legion didn't stupidly upload Reaper tech to the Consensus. It uploaded a code that it understood and had control of. I approve of this use of technology. Technology is not fundamentally evil.

The geth themselves disagree with that point.

Legion: An interesting choice, Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered anything the geth aspired to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like us than we thought.

What happens when you discover a technology, study it, understand it, adapt it, and use it? Is that not achieving something on your own terms?

Read the quote again. Geth even reject that.

Legion also says this about the Collector Base:

"Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not save those lost. Keeping it may save others."

I've always been annoyed by this contradiction. Legion makes a compelling argument here, and then trashes it later.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 03:05 .

[Phatose]

Why? The heretic base mission makes it crystal clear that Legion is many. Gotta remember any conversation with Legion is a conversation with 1000 different minds, and they don't always agree on everything.

[Argolas]

I wonder... is that statement truly a contradiction, or does Legion simply state facts? I mean, it seems rather surprised about the choice afterwards. Maybe it just assumed organics would value that technology while geth would not accept it.

[SyK18]

N7Avin180 wrote...

All organics? No. A single race? Yes.

This. 

[Argolas]

Oh yes, I have reconsidered my opinion on the actual topic (sorry for derailing). Given the alternatives, I would sacrifice every single life in the galaxy, organic or synthetic.

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...


Legion also says this about the Collector Base:

"Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not save those lost. Keeping it may save others."

I've always been annoyed by this contradiction. Legion makes a compelling argument here, and then trashes it later.

Legion isn't the only one to do that, every single crewmember in that squad position will point that out.  It's not unique to Legion, it is there to force a choice, and nothing more.  Hilarity ensues when it's Tali, or Garrus that suggest it.  Even funnier when it's Miranda, and then, on the ship, she points out that destroying it was the right choice to make.  I never keep it, do they change their minds after the fact if you do?

Modifié par robertthebard, 18 avril 2013 - 03:30 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

I wonder... is that statement truly a contradiction, or does Legion simply state facts? I mean, it seems rather surprised about the choice afterwards. Maybe it just assumed organics would value that technology while geth would not accept it.

Man, I think this anti-use-of-technology-that-you-did-not-make-from-scratch perspective is utterly insane. It's so insane that I'm starting to doubt that Legion actually meant it in the way that many think.

So a primitive human is walking around and discovers a wheel made by another human. The primitive human is curious about it, and studies it for a while. Over time, the human begins to grasp the implications of the wheel. Has this human been blinded to alternative paths? Has this human not earned the right to use the wheel? Gosh, these questions sound so stupid to me.

Argolas wrote...

Oh yes, I have reconsidered my opinion on the actual topic (sorry for derailing). Given the alternatives, I would sacrifice every single life in the galaxy, organic or synthetic.

At this point, I wonder who the true monsters are? The Reapers, who harvest species after they have achieved a certain level of advancement, or those who would destroy all life in the galaxy if it ensured the destruction of the Reapers?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 03:41 .

[Mangalores]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
...

At this point, I wonder who the true monsters are? The Reapers, who harvest species after they have achieved a certain level of advancement, or those who would destroy all life in the galaxy if it ensured the destruction of the Reapers?

The Reapers would never stop. Life can regrow. You have to evaluate billions of years of massmurder vs. one single Cataclysm that ends it and all civilizations that thus will never get harvested afterwards.

It's not really as black and white as you want to make it sound.

[robertthebard]

Mangalores wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
...

At this point, I wonder who the true monsters are? The Reapers, who harvest species after they have achieved a certain level of advancement, or those who would destroy all life in the galaxy if it ensured the destruction of the Reapers?

The Reapers would never stop. Life can regrow. You have to evaluate billions of years of massmurder vs. one single Cataclysm that ends it and all civilizations that thus will never get harvested afterwards.

It's not really as black and white as you want to make it sound.

Actually, it is, but it's not as negative as he/she wants it to be.  Destroying the Reapers saves civilizations that may not even be born yet.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

PirateMouse wrote...

Here's a question for those who picked Destroy ...

Would you still pick Destroy if it required you to kill all quarians?

All asari?

All turians?

All humans?

All organics?

How far are you really prepared to go? How far does the end justify the means for you?

You know this post and thread are misleading, what you fail to understand OP is that alot of the Destroyers pick Destroy because they lack a better choice, they see both Synthesis which kills everyone in the galaxy and Control which turns you into the next badly programmed catalyst, as far worse choices.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

DinoSteve wrote...

You know this post and thread are misleading, what you fail to understand OP is that alot of the Destroyers pick Destroy because they lack a better choice, they see both Synthesis which kills everyone in the galaxy and Control which turns you into the next badly programmed catalyst, as far worse choices.

Well if you have an exaggerated view/fear of the other options at hand, you probably won't ever see a better choice period.

[Mangalores]

robertthebard wrote...
...
Actually, it is, but it's not as negative as he/she wants it to be.  Destroying the Reapers saves civilizations that may not even be born yet.

Yes, and ends the misery for those that are. The cold math can very well be in favour of that decision and as well as considering this option assisted suiced aka manslaughter. It's bad but not actually worse than the Reapers who do the very same thing in a rolling system over far longer. The one is murder via gunshot, the other is murder via making  someone bleed to death over days. I rather get shot.

Well if you have an exaggerated view/fear of the other options at hand, you probably won't ever see a better choice period.

You have no clue whether it's exaggerated. None knows what these other options actually do until you choose them.

Modifié par Mangalores, 18 avril 2013 - 04:13 .

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
...

At this point, I wonder who the true monsters are? The Reapers, who harvest species after they have achieved a certain level of advancement, or those who would destroy all life in the galaxy if it ensured the destruction of the Reapers?

The Reapers would never stop. Life can regrow. You have to evaluate billions of years of massmurder vs. one single Cataclysm that ends it and all civilizations that thus will never get harvested afterwards.

It's not really as black and white as you want to make it sound.

Actually, it is, but it's not as negative as he/she wants it to be.  Destroying the Reapers saves civilizations that may not even be born yet.

I am very aware of the romantic notion of free civilizations in the far distant future. But I'm also aware of the implications of the present. If a Reaper war is being fought right now, and the Crucible is about to be fired, then be prepared to die. Our whole species is about to be snuffed out in a war that has nothing to do with us. Some day it might, but the Reapers are currently too far removed from our lives to be relevant.

Never again will a human be born. Everything we have ever accomplished will be rendered meaningless. Our brief existence will be ended by the choice of an alien who believes that the Reapers must be destroyed at all costs.

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We died so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 04:16 .

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I wonder... is that statement truly a contradiction, or does Legion simply state facts? I mean, it seems rather surprised about the choice afterwards. Maybe it just assumed organics would value that technology while geth would not accept it.

Man, I think this anti-use-of-technology-that-you-did-not-make-from-scratch perspective is utterly insane. It's so insane that I'm starting to doubt that Legion actually meant it in the way that many think.

So a primitive human is walking around and discovers a wheel made by another human. The primitive human is curious about it, and studies it for a while. Over time, the human begins to grasp the implications of the wheel. Has this human been blinded to alternative paths? Has this human not earned the right to use the wheel? Gosh, these questions sound so stupid to me.

There is a difference between something you just use and something you let modify the very essence of who and what you are and believe.

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Oh yes, I have reconsidered my opinion on the actual topic (sorry for derailing). Given the alternatives, I would sacrifice every single life in the galaxy, organic or synthetic.

At this point, I wonder who the true monsters are? The Reapers, who harvest species after they have achieved a certain level of advancement, or those who would destroy all life in the galaxy if it ensured the destruction of the Reapers?

Every cycle so far has made this sacrifice. If our cycle joins them, it will be sure to be the last. A short and brutal death sending us to oblivion to make sure that countless generations after us don't have to suffer under the reapers.

It would break my Shepard completely to do that. If he survived, he wouldn't want to live anymore. But it's the ruthless calculus that may be neccessary against an enemy like this. After tens of thousends of lost cycles, one more sacrifice and the galaxy is finally free from that terror...

[Mangalores]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

...

I am very aware of the romantic notion of free civilizations in the far distant future. But I'm also aware of the implications of the present. If a Reaper war is being fought right now, and the Crucible is about to be fired, then be prepared to die. Our whole species is about to be snuffed out in a war that has nothing to do with us. Some day it might, but the Reapers are currently too far removed from our lives to be relevant.

Never again will a human be born. Everything we have ever accomplished will be rendered meaningless. Our brief existence will be ended by the choice of an alien who believes that the Reapers must be destroyed at all costs.

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

Which has no bearing on the actual win loss calculation of doing it. You are the one being romantic here.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mangalores wrote...

You have no clue whether it's exaggerated. None knows what these other options actually do until you choose them.

If you assume what we're told about Destroy is true, you must assume the same for Control and Sync, in which case the descriptions ("turn into badly programmed catalyst" and "everybody dies" respectively) is exaggerated demagoggy.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

You know this post and thread are misleading, what you fail to understand OP is that alot of the Destroyers pick Destroy because they lack a better choice, they see both Synthesis which kills everyone in the galaxy and Control which turns you into the next badly programmed catalyst, as far worse choices.

Well if you have an exaggerated view/fear of the other options at hand, you probably won't ever see a better choice period.

I don't have an exaggerated view of what happens, synthesis changes a person into something else they are no longer what they where, you have actually just killed what they were and in Control you are nothing more than a software patch that tries to patch bad code, but guess what that code is still bad.

[robertthebard]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

You know this post and thread are misleading, what you fail to understand OP is that alot of the Destroyers pick Destroy because they lack a better choice, they see both Synthesis which kills everyone in the galaxy and Control which turns you into the next badly programmed catalyst, as far worse choices.

Well if you have an exaggerated view/fear of the other options at hand, you probably won't ever see a better choice period.

Which is, interestingly enough, the reason this thread exists in the first place:  an exaggerated view/fear of the choice.  Why change the variables on what the Destroy beam actually does if not to say "you people are monsters"?  So I have to say, you do have a valid point.

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I am very aware of the romantic notion of free civilizations in the far distant future. But I'm also aware of the implications of the present. If a Reaper war is being fought right now, and the Crucible is about to be fired, then be prepared to die. Our whole species is about to be snuffed out in a war that has nothing to do with us. Some day it might, but the Reapers are currently too far removed from our lives to be relevant.

Never again will a human be born. Everything we have ever accomplished will be rendered meaningless. Our brief existence will be ended by the choice of an alien who believes that the Reapers must be destroyed at all costs.

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

See above.  The OP changed the nature of the beam to validate his stance on "you people are monsters", since, barring low EMS Destroy, which, if you destroy the Collector base in ME 2 is the only ending you can get, it doesn't work that way.