935 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

The reapers never gave anyone a choice either. Not us, but also not those countless lives before them. They made the same sacrifice then we would now, yet ours would count.

Call my Shepard a monster. Call him as bad and evil as the Reapers are. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty. What matters is that it counts.

[CosmicGnosis]

Mangalores wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

...

I am very aware of the romantic notion of free civilizations in the far distant future. But I'm also aware of the implications of the present. If a Reaper war is being fought right now, and the Crucible is about to be fired, then be prepared to die. Our whole species is about to be snuffed out in a war that has nothing to do with us. Some day it might, but the Reapers are currently too far removed from our lives to be relevant.

Never again will a human be born. Everything we have ever accomplished will be rendered meaningless. Our brief existence will be ended by the choice of an alien who believes that the Reapers must be destroyed at all costs.

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

Which has no bearing on the actual win loss calculation of doing it. You are the one being romantic here.

My point is that I don't think this particular victory is worth it. People like to condemn Synthesis because it alters all life in the galaxy, but this version of Destroy will literally annihilate all life in the galaxy. Oh, but that's okay. That's better than giving people the power to control their bodies. It's also better to cast aside the legacies of the species within the Reapers and ensure that they are forever lost to history. Humanity will also be forgotten. Other species that are currently evolving on other worlds will never be known.

Such a profound waste of life. What if you had the choice between this version of Destroy and controlling the Reapers? Would you still choose Destroy?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Argolas,

You keep ignoring the question. Would they have been exterminated without the Reapers? Yes or no?

They would have been exterminated no matter what. After the Reapers were done with the galaxy, the geth would be discarded as used-up tools. The geth simply traded short-term death for a long-term enslavement and eventual death.
Yes, they would have died had it not been for the Reapers, but the Reapers would have killed the geth themselves anyway when all was said and done. The geth literally traded death from the quarians for an eventual death from the Reapers. They didn't think in the long-term, obviously.

you still miss the point.  they would not be exterminated no matter what.  anything can happenand in the game that anything was Shep.  this is what you keep ignoring.  the future is not certain and shep is proof of that fact which is why ypu dont accept extinction  today becuse there is alwys a chanc things change tomorrow.  the game proves this.

[Interloper]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

...

I am very aware of the romantic notion of free civilizations in the far distant future. But I'm also aware of the implications of the present. If a Reaper war is being fought right now, and the Crucible is about to be fired, then be prepared to die. Our whole species is about to be snuffed out in a war that has nothing to do with us. Some day it might, but the Reapers are currently too far removed from our lives to be relevant.

Never again will a human be born. Everything we have ever accomplished will be rendered meaningless. Our brief existence will be ended by the choice of an alien who believes that the Reapers must be destroyed at all costs.

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

Which has no bearing on the actual win loss calculation of doing it. You are the one being romantic here.

My point is that I don't think this particular victory is worth it. People like to condemn Synthesis because it alters all life in the galaxy, but this version of Destroy will literally annihilate all life in the galaxy. Oh, but that's okay. That's better than giving people the power to control their bodies. It's also better to cast aside the legacies of the species within the Reapers and ensure that they are forever lost to history. Humanity will also be forgotten. Other species that are currently evolving on other worlds will never be known.

Such a profound waste of life. What if you had the choice between this version of Destroy and controlling the Reapers? Would you still choose Destroy?

You know what, for anyone who saw how the Geth allied with the Reapers on Eden Prime, and slaughtered innocent civilians, I think destroying them isn't much of a problem. Moreover, how can you possibly advocate the collectivist nightmare that is either synthesis or the reapers? Everyone you speak to has either lost a son, daughter, brother, sister and family member to the Reapers. The Reapers blended humans on mass and broke them down and used their CORPSES(note not their minds) to create synthetic graveyards called Reapers. They might have the memories of the races, but they are NOT the individuals which created them, they merely stole their memories and their organic matter. The beauty of destroy is that it decimates the resentment one feels living in the shadow of creatures which butchered billions of your race, and it grants the races the FREE WILL, to be who they want to be. The mistakes they make will be their responsibility, but it is THEIR choice. The Geth wanted to be like organics, they wanted to be individuals, even if that meant making mistakes(Geth conceals information from Shepard when he becomes an INDIVIDUAL, he makes that choice).  By ushering in synthesis, you do the job of the reapers for them, because think about this, if the Reapers made everyone into husks, and they all 'loved' each other because they were essentially similar, and no organic life ever arose again...would you even realise the difference between that 'reaper' world, and the world of synthesis? Destroy is one of the most deplorable methods devised in one of the most dismal situations organic existence has ever found itself ensnared within...but it is LESS deplorable than every other method out there.

[CosmicGnosis]

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

The reapers never gave anyone a choice either. Not us, but also not those countless lives before them. They made the same sacrifice then we would now, yet ours would count.

Call my Shepard a monster. Call him as bad and evil as the Reapers are. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty. What matters is that it counts.

I truly don't think it's worth it. Why not do something that resembles the Refuse ending? Maybe Liara should spread a message on countless worlds throughout the galaxy instructing future species to limit their own technological advances? Or maybe tell them to construct new technology that is not related to the Reapers. I don't know, but do something, anything than this version of Destroy.

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

My point is that I don't think this particular victory is worth it. People like to condemn Synthesis because it alters all life in the galaxy, but this version of Destroy will literally annihilate all life in the galaxy. Oh, but that's okay. That's better than giving people the power to control their bodies. It's also better to cast aside the legacies of the species within the Reapers and ensure that they are forever lost to history. Humanity will also be forgotten. Other species that are currently evolving on other worlds will never be known.

Such a profound waste of life. What if you had the choice between this version of Destroy and controlling the Reapers? Would you still choose Destroy?

You mean, this altered by a random BSN poster to reflect 'you people are monsters" version?  You'll note that when somebody altered one of the other endings, the OP went on a rampage stating that we can't do that because reasons.  Now why would he do that if it's not just a justification for more "destroyers are sociopaths" rant?  It's not justifiable for any other reason to alter one ending to suit one's PoV, but deny changing the rest to similar circumstances, or in a similar way.  He changed one scenario, and vehemently insisted that no others could be changed.  Why, do you suppose, that was?

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Argolas wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

We never had a choice. We never even knew what was going on. But the choice was made for us. We will die so that hypothetical future civilizations will be free from the Reapers.

The reapers never gave anyone a choice either. Not us, but also not those countless lives before them. They made the same sacrifice then we would now, yet ours would count.

Call my Shepard a monster. Call him as bad and evil as the Reapers are. He is not afraid to get his hands dirty. What matters is that it counts.

I truly don't think it's worth it. Why not do something that resembles the Refuse ending? Maybe Liara should spread a message on countless worlds throughout the galaxy instructing future species to limit their own technological advances? Or maybe tell them to construct new technology that is not related to the Reapers. I don't know, but do something, anything than this version of Destroy.

If I refuse, the galaxy will still have to make the same sacrifices plus some pointless suffering. And I would pass on the burden of the reapers to the next cycle.

[CosmicGnosis]

Interloper wrote...

You know what, for anyone who saw how the Geth allied with the Reapers on Eden Prime, and slaughtered innocent civilians, I think destroying them isn't much of a problem. Moreover, how can you possibly advocate the collectivist nightmare that is either synthesis or the reapers? Everyone you speak to has either lost a son, daughter, brother, sister and family member to the Reapers. The Reapers blended humans on mass and broke them down and used their CORPSES(note not their minds) to create synthetic graveyards called Reapers. They might have the memories of the races, but they are NOT the individuals which created them, they merely stole their memories and their organic matter. The beauty of destroy is that it decimates the resentment one feels living in the shadow of creatures which butchered billions of your race, and it grants the races the FREE WILL, to be who they want to be. The mistakes they make will be their responsibility, but it is THEIR choice. The Geth wanted to be like organics, they wanted to be individuals, even if that meant making mistakes(Geth conceals information from Shepard when he becomes an INDIVIDUAL, he makes that choice).  By ushering in synthesis, you do the job of the reapers for them, because think about this, if the Reapers made everyone into husks, and they all 'loved' each other because they were essentially similar, and no organic life ever arose again...would you even realise the difference between that 'reaper' world, and the world of synthesis? Destroy is one of the most deplorable methods devised in one of the most dismal situations organic existence has ever found itself ensnared within...but it is LESS deplorable than every other method out there.

I accept what the game shows me. The leaked scripts also suggest that the "third choice", or the "merge" choice, was always intended to be the best ending.

Also, Legion describes the Reapers like this:

"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. 'Each a nation.'"

There are definitely minds within the Reapers. They are not just dead corpses.

And I'm getting really sick of this interpretation of Synthesis. I would never choose Synthesis if it was a complete surrender to the Reapers, or if it turned everyone into husks. I don't approve of the cycle! But Synthesis is not the cycle. It creates the circumstances that may lead to a solution to the Catalyst's problem, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The Catalyst is a dispassionate alien intelligence that has no obligation to consider human morality. Why should it? It just so happens that Synthesis benefits the galaxy as much as it benefits the Catalyst.

Synthesis also asks the player to recognize the Reapers as people instead of monsters. By integrating the Reapers into galactic civilization, you recognize their right to personhood.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 04:52 .

[Steelcan]

There is one mind on a Reaper. The Reaper's. those minds are conjoined into one personality, one central intelligence. The indiviual people who were harvested are dead.

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

You mean, this altered by a random BSN poster to reflect 'you people are monsters" version?  You'll note that when somebody altered one of the other endings, the OP went on a rampage stating that we can't do that because reasons.  Now why would he do that if it's not just a justification for more "destroyers are sociopaths" rant?  It's not justifiable for any other reason to alter one ending to suit one's PoV, but deny changing the rest to similar circumstances, or in a similar way.  He changed one scenario, and vehemently insisted that no others could be changed.  Why, do you suppose, that was?

Yes, I agree that the OP is likely trying to create controversy. But there actually are people who have expressed a willingness to destroy the Reapers at almost any cost. And I don't agree with that method. I prefer Liara's method of leaking information to future cycles with the hope that one day someone will find a cleaner way to end the cycle. Even if it takes ten billion years, at least many species will not be denied a chance at mere existence.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Interloper wrote...

You know what, for anyone who saw how the Geth allied with the Reapers on Eden Prime, and slaughtered innocent civilians, I think destroying them isn't much of a problem. Moreover, how can you possibly advocate the collectivist nightmare that is either synthesis or the reapers? Everyone you speak to has either lost a son, daughter, brother, sister and family member to the Reapers. The Reapers blended humans on mass and broke them down and used their CORPSES(note not their minds) to create synthetic graveyards called Reapers. They might have the memories of the races, but they are NOT the individuals which created them, they merely stole their memories and their organic matter. The beauty of destroy is that it decimates the resentment one feels living in the shadow of creatures which butchered billions of your race, and it grants the races the FREE WILL, to be who they want to be. The mistakes they make will be their responsibility, but it is THEIR choice. The Geth wanted to be like organics, they wanted to be individuals, even if that meant making mistakes(Geth conceals information from Shepard when he becomes an INDIVIDUAL, he makes that choice).  By ushering in synthesis, you do the job of the reapers for them, because think about this, if the Reapers made everyone into husks, and they all 'loved' each other because they were essentially similar, and no organic life ever arose again...would you even realise the difference between that 'reaper' world, and the world of synthesis? Destroy is one of the most deplorable methods devised in one of the most dismal situations organic existence has ever found itself ensnared within...but it is LESS deplorable than every other method out there.

I accept what the game shows me. The leaked scripts also suggest that the "third choice", or the "merge" choice, was always intended to be the best ending.

Also, Legion describes the Reapers like this:

"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. 'Each a nation.'"

There are definitely minds within the Reapers. They are not just dead corpses.

And I'm getting really sick of this interpretation of Synthesis. I would never choose Synthesis if it was a complete surrender to the Reapers, or if it turned everyone into husks. I don't approve of the cycle! But Synthesis is not the cycle. It creates the circumstances that may lead to a solution to the Catalyst's problem, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The Catalyst is a dispassionate alien intelligence that has no obligation to consider human morality. Why should it? It just so happens that Synthesis benefits the galaxy as much as it benefits the Catalyst.

Synthesis also asks the player to recognize the Reapers as people instead of monsters. By integrating the Reapers into galactic civilization, you recognize their right to personhood.

Source.

Again, arguing opinions as facts will get you nowhere.  I don't share your opinion, therefore one of us must be wrong?  I was on Eden Prime in ME 1, and I saw how the Reapers implemented Synthesis.  Remember the Dragon's Teeth?  Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that that was geth tech?  Which Council member are you?  Sorry, but I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that that's a good idea, or to believe the geth invented the tech.  Every single Reaper Variant we fight along the way to the beam is the Reaper's attempt at Synthesis, but you still think it's a good idea?  Sorry, but when I consider the results they have gotten over the time that I've been fighting them, that's not an option.  I know, but reasons, right?  You are doing what the Reapers have spent countless cycles trying to do, make everyone the same.

Yep, it asks us to see the Reapers as billion year old sociopaths, spending their time either celebrating their past victories, or actively destroying yet another space faring civilization.  Where I live, murder is punishable by the death penalty.  Am I to overlook the murder of countless civilizations in the past, and current murdering of my own so that I can spare a race of sociopathic machines?  I have spoken to three Reapers over the course of three games, and none of them have shown me any reason why they should be allowed to live, if it's within my power to destroy them, and frankly, I have told all them the same thing.  So now, because the Catalyst tells me so, despite seeing what it's results have been at attempting Synthesis, I'm supposed to think it's a good idea to kill myself to further it's goal?  I really don't think that I'm the one that's off my rocker, I really don't.

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

You mean, this altered by a random BSN poster to reflect 'you people are monsters" version?  You'll note that when somebody altered one of the other endings, the OP went on a rampage stating that we can't do that because reasons.  Now why would he do that if it's not just a justification for more "destroyers are sociopaths" rant?  It's not justifiable for any other reason to alter one ending to suit one's PoV, but deny changing the rest to similar circumstances, or in a similar way.  He changed one scenario, and vehemently insisted that no others could be changed.  Why, do you suppose, that was?

Yes, I agree that the OP is likely trying to create controversy. But there actually are people who have expressed a willingness to destroy the Reapers at almost any cost. And I don't agree with that method. I prefer Liara's method of leaking information to future cycles with the hope that one day someone will find a cleaner way to end the cycle. Even if it takes ten billion years, at least many species will not be denied a chance at mere existence.

Shepard has stated exactly that, stop the Reapers at any cost.  It seems to me one of the speeches after the Normandy crashes on the Collector base is one instance, I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall where.  However, the willingness to end him/herself, crew and ship if it means stopping the Reapers should be evidence enough that Shepard doesn't lack that attitude, even if the player behind him/her does.  It should also be evident that Shepard's crew shares that conviction, since none of them abandon ship before the Omega 4 relay, and Hackett points out Sovereign and the Omega 4 relay in the "why me" conversation on the Normandy.  Source starts at 0:32.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Argolas wrote...

If I refuse, the galaxy will still have to make the same sacrifices plus some pointless suffering. And I would pass on the burden of the reapers to the next cycle.

Gotta agree with this, actually. I'd have 0 faith in the galaxy (this cycle) finding a better way to stop the Reapers, so it's basically lose-win or lose-lose, in which case I choose the last. We destroyed a star system just to *slow* the Reapers, so that set the tone. What's the cost of the entire armada? Life will go on after us, and they won't have a cycle to worry about.

That, of course, is only if I don't have another choice. 

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

Source.

Again, arguing opinions as facts will get you nowhere.  I don't share your opinion, therefore one of us must be wrong?  I was on Eden Prime in ME 1, and I saw how the Reapers implemented Synthesis.  Remember the Dragon's Teeth?  Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that that was geth tech?  Which Council member are you?  Sorry, but I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that that's a good idea, or to believe the geth invented the tech.  Every single Reaper Variant we fight along the way to the beam is the Reaper's attempt at Synthesis, but you still think it's a good idea?  Sorry, but when I consider the results they have gotten over the time that I've been fighting them, that's not an option.  I know, but reasons, right?  You are doing what the Reapers have spent countless cycles trying to do, make everyone the same.

Yep, it asks us to see the Reapers as billion year old sociopaths, spending their time either celebrating their past victories, or actively destroying yet another space faring civilization.  Where I live, murder is punishable by the death penalty.  Am I to overlook the murder of countless civilizations in the past, and current murdering of my own so that I can spare a race of sociopathic machines?  I have spoken to three Reapers over the course of three games, and none of them have shown me any reason why they should be allowed to live, if it's within my power to destroy them, and frankly, I have told all them the same thing.  So now, because the Catalyst tells me so, despite seeing what it's results have been at attempting Synthesis, I'm supposed to think it's a good idea to kill myself to further it's goal?  I really don't think that I'm the one that's off my rocker, I really don't.

Wait, what do you want a source for? I said a lot in my post.

ME2 confirms that Dragon's Teeth are Reaper technology. Synthesis does not turn people into husks. It does not take away free will. It carries the philosophy of "with knowledge comes wisdom". EDI says that "we can now live the lives we have wished for." Joker and EDI embrace each other after they step out of the Normandy. None of these points suggest that Synthesis has turned everyone into husks.

The Reapers were controlled by the Catalyst. The Reapers are not to blame. And even then, the Catalyst is an alien intelligence that is not subject to our standard of morality. We fight it because we don't agree with its methods. It's as simple as that. Does Synthesis validate the Catalyst's harvest cycle? Maybe, but at least the species within the Reapers can be "revived", so the previous cycles are not a complete waste. In the grand scheme of things, it was all a cosmic accident, and we must do what we can to make the best of it.

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

Shepard has stated exactly that, stop the Reapers at any cost.  It seems to me one of the speeches after the Normandy crashes on the Collector base is one instance, I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall where.  However, the willingness to end him/herself, crew and ship if it means stopping the Reapers should be evidence enough that Shepard doesn't lack that attitude, even if the player behind him/her does.  It should also be evident that Shepard's crew shares that conviction, since none of them abandon ship before the Omega 4 relay, and Hackett points out Sovereign and the Omega 4 relay in the "why me" conversation on the Normandy.  Source starts at 0:32.

Um... Sacrificing yourself and your crew is not the same as sacrificing every single being in the galaxy.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

robertthebard wrote...

Again, arguing opinions as facts will get you nowhere.  I don't share your opinion, therefore one of us must be wrong?  I was on Eden Prime in ME 1, and I saw how the Reapers implemented Synthesis.  Remember the Dragon's Teeth?  Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that that was geth tech?  Which Council member are you?  Sorry, but I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that that's a good idea, or to believe the geth invented the tech.  Every single Reaper Variant we fight along the way to the beam is the Reaper's attempt at Synthesis, but you still think it's a good idea?  Sorry, but when I consider the results they have gotten over the time that I've been fighting them, that's not an option.  I know, but reasons, right?  You are doing what the Reapers have spent countless cycles trying to do, make everyone the same.

It is explicitly stated that Synthesis comes from the Crucible.

The thing we built, independently of the Reapers.

Catalyst: "Add your (body) to the Crucible ..."

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Source.

Again, arguing opinions as facts will get you nowhere.  I don't share your opinion, therefore one of us must be wrong?  I was on Eden Prime in ME 1, and I saw how the Reapers implemented Synthesis.  Remember the Dragon's Teeth?  Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that that was geth tech?  Which Council member are you?  Sorry, but I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that that's a good idea, or to believe the geth invented the tech.  Every single Reaper Variant we fight along the way to the beam is the Reaper's attempt at Synthesis, but you still think it's a good idea?  Sorry, but when I consider the results they have gotten over the time that I've been fighting them, that's not an option.  I know, but reasons, right?  You are doing what the Reapers have spent countless cycles trying to do, make everyone the same.

Yep, it asks us to see the Reapers as billion year old sociopaths, spending their time either celebrating their past victories, or actively destroying yet another space faring civilization.  Where I live, murder is punishable by the death penalty.  Am I to overlook the murder of countless civilizations in the past, and current murdering of my own so that I can spare a race of sociopathic machines?  I have spoken to three Reapers over the course of three games, and none of them have shown me any reason why they should be allowed to live, if it's within my power to destroy them, and frankly, I have told all them the same thing.  So now, because the Catalyst tells me so, despite seeing what it's results have been at attempting Synthesis, I'm supposed to think it's a good idea to kill myself to further it's goal?  I really don't think that I'm the one that's off my rocker, I really don't.

Wait, what do you want a source for? I said a lot in my post.

ME2 confirms that Dragon's Teeth are Reaper technology. Synthesis does not turn people into husks. It does not take away free will. It carries the philosophy of "with knowledge comes wisdom". EDI says that "we can now live the lives we have wished for." Joker and EDI embrace each other after they step out of the Normandy. None of these points suggest that Synthesis has turned everyone into husks.

The Reapers were controlled by the Catalyst. The Reapers are not to blame. And even then, the Catalyst is an alien intelligence that is not subject to our standard of morality. We fight it because we don't agree with its methods. It's as simple as that. Does Synthesis validate the Catalyst's harvest cycle? Maybe, but at least the species within the Reapers can be "revived", so the previous cycles are not a complete waste. In the grand scheme of things, it was all a cosmic accident, and we must do what we can to make the best of it.

Source for Synthesis is the good ending.

So you're basing your choices purely on metagame knowledge, instead of what you learn as that particular Shepard going through the game.  In which case, we have nothing left to discuss.  I have 4 Shepards that have completed the game, out of 20 saves at the beam in London.  All of them have based their decision on events over all three games, instead of youtube videos about what happens after.  How does it get exempt from our standard of morality, are we suddenly more than we are?  It is time for judgment and we are the judges, so it's our standard of morality that exactly applies.  However, as I said, discussion is moot because it's all "but what happens after" instead of "what happens before".

Modifié par robertthebard, 18 avril 2013 - 05:34 .

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Shepard has stated exactly that, stop the Reapers at any cost.  It seems to me one of the speeches after the Normandy crashes on the Collector base is one instance, I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall where.  However, the willingness to end him/herself, crew and ship if it means stopping the Reapers should be evidence enough that Shepard doesn't lack that attitude, even if the player behind him/her does.  It should also be evident that Shepard's crew shares that conviction, since none of them abandon ship before the Omega 4 relay, and Hackett points out Sovereign and the Omega 4 relay in the "why me" conversation on the Normandy.  Source starts at 0:32.

Um... Sacrificing yourself and your crew is not the same as sacrificing every single being in the galaxy.

...and zoom, right over your head.  Since you base your decision on strictly metagame knowledge, I'm going to ignore the "you people are monsters" scenario set up by the OP and tell you the facts:  No, the beam does not kill everything in the galaxy.  The points of contention are EDI and the geth.  Since we're going pure metagame here, the price is not too high.  It's certainly high, and it took me 4 games to get peace between the geth and the Quarians, but ultimately, the Reapers are gone forever, and the galaxy is free to rebuild.  From a metagame standpoint, that is vastly superior to ShepAI deciding who is the many, and definitely better than genetically raping every living being in the galaxy, combatants and non-combatants alike.  I wonder, which is the greater war crime.

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Source.

Again, arguing opinions as facts will get you nowhere.  I don't share your opinion, therefore one of us must be wrong?  I was on Eden Prime in ME 1, and I saw how the Reapers implemented Synthesis.  Remember the Dragon's Teeth?  Unless, of course, you're going to tell me that that was geth tech?  Which Council member are you?  Sorry, but I haven't been shot in the head nearly enough times to think that that's a good idea, or to believe the geth invented the tech.  Every single Reaper Variant we fight along the way to the beam is the Reaper's attempt at Synthesis, but you still think it's a good idea?  Sorry, but when I consider the results they have gotten over the time that I've been fighting them, that's not an option.  I know, but reasons, right?  You are doing what the Reapers have spent countless cycles trying to do, make everyone the same.

Yep, it asks us to see the Reapers as billion year old sociopaths, spending their time either celebrating their past victories, or actively destroying yet another space faring civilization.  Where I live, murder is punishable by the death penalty.  Am I to overlook the murder of countless civilizations in the past, and current murdering of my own so that I can spare a race of sociopathic machines?  I have spoken to three Reapers over the course of three games, and none of them have shown me any reason why they should be allowed to live, if it's within my power to destroy them, and frankly, I have told all them the same thing.  So now, because the Catalyst tells me so, despite seeing what it's results have been at attempting Synthesis, I'm supposed to think it's a good idea to kill myself to further it's goal?  I really don't think that I'm the one that's off my rocker, I really don't.

Wait, what do you want a source for? I said a lot in my post.

ME2 confirms that Dragon's Teeth are Reaper technology. Synthesis does not turn people into husks. It does not take away free will. It carries the philosophy of "with knowledge comes wisdom". EDI says that "we can now live the lives we have wished for." Joker and EDI embrace each other after they step out of the Normandy. None of these points suggest that Synthesis has turned everyone into husks.

The Reapers were controlled by the Catalyst. The Reapers are not to blame. And even then, the Catalyst is an alien intelligence that is not subject to our standard of morality. We fight it because we don't agree with its methods. It's as simple as that. Does Synthesis validate the Catalyst's harvest cycle? Maybe, but at least the species within the Reapers can be "revived", so the previous cycles are not a complete waste. In the grand scheme of things, it was all a cosmic accident, and we must do what we can to make the best of it.

Source for Synthesis is the good ending.

So you're basing your choices purely on metagame knowledge, instead of what you learn as that particular Shepard going through the game.  In which case, we have nothing left to discuss.  I have 4 Shepards that have completed the game, out of 20 saves at the beam in London.  All of them have based their decision on events over all three games, instead of youtube videos about what happens after.  How does it get exempt from our standard of morality, are we suddenly more than we are?  It is time for judgment and we are the judges, so it's our standard of morality that exactly applies.  However, as I said, discussion is moot because it's all "but what happens after" instead of "what happens before".

After some serious thinking, I chose Synthesis on my first playthrough. I had no metagame knowledge at the time. Granted, I didn't like any of the endings before the EC, and it's taken me a whole year to finally settle on an ending.

The Catalyst is not a human. Therefore, there is no reason for it to care about human morality, judgment, etc. We want to stop it because its plan for the galaxy involves killing us, and we don't approve.

You know, this is still relevant to the Lovecraftian mystique of the Reapers. The Catalyst is an entity that is foreign to us and beyond our understanding. Its perspective is very impersonal and much larger than ours. So yes, there is a hint of nihilism from the Catalyst, in that our morality is not a universal standard.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 05:51 .

[CosmicGnosis]

robertthebard wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Shepard has stated exactly that, stop the Reapers at any cost.  It seems to me one of the speeches after the Normandy crashes on the Collector base is one instance, I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall where.  However, the willingness to end him/herself, crew and ship if it means stopping the Reapers should be evidence enough that Shepard doesn't lack that attitude, even if the player behind him/her does.  It should also be evident that Shepard's crew shares that conviction, since none of them abandon ship before the Omega 4 relay, and Hackett points out Sovereign and the Omega 4 relay in the "why me" conversation on the Normandy.  Source starts at 0:32.

Um... Sacrificing yourself and your crew is not the same as sacrificing every single being in the galaxy.

...and zoom, right over your head.  Since you base your decision on strictly metagame knowledge, I'm going to ignore the "you people are monsters" scenario set up by the OP and tell you the facts:  No, the beam does not kill everything in the galaxy.  The points of contention are EDI and the geth.  Since we're going pure metagame here, the price is not too high.  It's certainly high, and it took me 4 games to get peace between the geth and the Quarians, but ultimately, the Reapers are gone forever, and the galaxy is free to rebuild.  From a metagame standpoint, that is vastly superior to ShepAI deciding who is the many, and definitely better than genetically raping every living being in the galaxy, combatants and non-combatants alike.  I wonder, which is the greater war crime.

I know that the OP's version of Destroy is not in the game, although Low-EMS Destroy definitely resembles it. I agree that High-EMS Destroy is a good ending, even though I prefer Synthesis. I'm not arguing that High-EMS Destroy is bad. I'm arguing that the OP's extreme version of Destroy is not worth the cost.

[Wayning_Star]

If Shepard wasn't "Dead" why would he/she have to be resurrected?

(the term "Life" in the MEU is drastically differential to here on Old Earth, keep that in mind when considering 'preservation' and it's kinks and admission.)

[CosmicGnosis]

A line from one of the leaked scripts states the following:

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

The conversation with the Catalyst from the scripts also favors the "merge" option, and Destroy is always implied to be the worst option. In fact, in the leaked scripts, Destroy is the only ending that destroys the mass relays, which is appropriate. The endings that we originally got, however, had the relays destroyed in every ending.

One of Ieldra's threads has the dialogue from an older script:

About Destroy:
C: It's energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb.
C: As will much the technology your kind rely on.
C: Including the relays you depend upon.
S: But the Reapers will be dead?
C: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

About Control:
C: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: What would happen to me?
C: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
S: And the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct.

About Synthesis:
C: You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
C: Add your energy, your essence, with that of Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind.
C: We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
S: So we'll just... go on living, together?
C: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down.
C: The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11989180

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 18 avril 2013 - 06:04 .

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Shepard has stated exactly that, stop the Reapers at any cost.  It seems to me one of the speeches after the Normandy crashes on the Collector base is one instance, I'm sure there are more, but I can't recall where.  However, the willingness to end him/herself, crew and ship if it means stopping the Reapers should be evidence enough that Shepard doesn't lack that attitude, even if the player behind him/her does.  It should also be evident that Shepard's crew shares that conviction, since none of them abandon ship before the Omega 4 relay, and Hackett points out Sovereign and the Omega 4 relay in the "why me" conversation on the Normandy.  Source starts at 0:32.

Um... Sacrificing yourself and your crew is not the same as sacrificing every single being in the galaxy.

...and zoom, right over your head.  Since you base your decision on strictly metagame knowledge, I'm going to ignore the "you people are monsters" scenario set up by the OP and tell you the facts:  No, the beam does not kill everything in the galaxy.  The points of contention are EDI and the geth.  Since we're going pure metagame here, the price is not too high.  It's certainly high, and it took me 4 games to get peace between the geth and the Quarians, but ultimately, the Reapers are gone forever, and the galaxy is free to rebuild.  From a metagame standpoint, that is vastly superior to ShepAI deciding who is the many, and definitely better than genetically raping every living being in the galaxy, combatants and non-combatants alike.  I wonder, which is the greater war crime.

I know that the OP's version of Destroy is not in the game, although Low-EMS Destroy definitely resembles it. I agree that High-EMS Destroy is a good ending, even though I prefer Synthesis. I'm not arguing that High-EMS Destroy is bad. I'm arguing that the OP's extreme version of Destroy is not worth the cost.

My quip with destroy is that it's just too easy. As well as the catalyst claiming it's the basis of chaos and plain, to it's experience, won't stop chaos/or the cycle of build and destroy. Apparently its a glitch in nature as evolution..

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

The line from one of the leaked scripts states the following:

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

The conversation with the Catalyst from the scripts also favors the "merge" option, and Destroy is always implied to be the worst option. In fact, in the leaked scripts, Destroy is the only ending that destroys the mass relays, which is appropriate. The endings that we originally got, however, had the relays destroyed in every ending.

One of Ieldra's threads has the dialogue from an older script:

About Destroy:
C: It's energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb.
C: As will much the technology your kind rely on.
C: Including the relays you depend upon.
S: But the Reapers will be dead?
C: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

About Control:
C: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: What would happen to me?
C: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
S: And the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct.

About Synthesis:
C: You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
C: Add your energy, your essence, with that of Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind.
C: We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
S: So we'll just... go on living, together?
C: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down.
C: The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11989180

it's one of  those "I'm already there" threads from another sci fi, as Dave got his groove on with the 2001: A Space Odyssey - The Monolith On The Moon . Or was that Mars? lol 2010: Odyssey Two

[robertthebard]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

A line from one of the leaked scripts states the following:

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

The conversation with the Catalyst from the scripts also favors the "merge" option, and Destroy is always implied to be the worst option. In fact, in the leaked scripts, Destroy is the only ending that destroys the mass relays, which is appropriate. The endings that we originally got, however, had the relays destroyed in every ending.

One of Ieldra's threads has the dialogue from an older script:

About Destroy:
C: It's energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb.
C: As will much the technology your kind rely on.
C: Including the relays you depend upon.
S: But the Reapers will be dead?
C: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

About Control:
C: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: What would happen to me?
C: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
S: And the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct.

About Synthesis:
C: You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
C: Add your energy, your essence, with that of Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind.
C: We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
S: So we'll just... go on living, together?
C: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down.
C: The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11989180

Not seeing the "good" ending.  Not really seeing much that's very different from what we actually got, except the retcon of all synthetics will be destroyed to all synthetics will be targeted.  You see, proof of Synthesis is the good ending is going to need to be Word of God.  The leaked script was retconned, and is no longer Word of God.  I mean, if we play on might have beens, wasn't the singularity the Dark Matter plot?