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Destroyers: How far are you prepared to go?


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#851
remydat

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robertthebard wrote...
You forgot this recent development of accusing people of creating strawmen to cover up his red herring AI.Image IPB


Sorry did you provide a link of me calling you a monster?  Didn't think so.  So yes claiming I consider you a monster was a strawman.  A strawman you decided to try and support by quoting Pirate as if I am Pirate.

robertthebard wrote...

There is no confusion, on my part.  You are waving your AI around like an "I win" button.  You have, much like the OP, chosen to ignore the facts that would be in evidence so that you can scream "you people are monsters" from the highest peaks.


See the bolded underline.  Now where is your support that I want to scream you people are monsters from the highest peaks.  Not Pirate but me?  All the while accussing me of genocide and genetic rape, lol.  I await your evidence that does not involve quoting someone else.

Modifié par remydat, 20 avril 2013 - 08:21 .


#852
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Robert I'm loving your work.

Reminds me of this.



Remy's the Reaper.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 20 avril 2013 - 08:46 .


#853
silverexile17s

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remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I actually HAVE evidence to back up what I say.
Do you not see the differences? They are evolving seperately in those pictures, compaired to being blended together into a single one like as seen in the Synthesis pic.

And AGAIN, I present a question from Robertthebard that you repeatedly ignored:
What proof do you have that the Catalyst is being 100% honest with us? What logical Reason is there to suddenly trust the Reapers?

And AGAIN, that's just a temperorary thing. The geth are helping the quarians re-aclimitize to Rannoch faster then normal. It's not a perminate arrangement, as diolouge between Liara and Tali about quarian/geth relations reveals.
And talking is one thing. Merging both into the same cities with zero qualms is another. And again, if they can "suddenly understand each-other perfectly", then isn't that the alteration of all culture to be fundementally the same? The very thing you said Synthesis WOULDN'T do?

LoL, you are again all over the place. Chalk up another conrtidiction for, as Robertthebard said, the king of double-standards.


That is not evidence.  It is a still photo in which Geth and Quarians are talking.  No where does it say their cultures have been blended together or destroyed.  That is your interpretation of a still photo. 

I already answered Twilight about the Catalyst about why I believe him although I never claimed my belief in him is absolute ie 100%.  It is possible he is lying, I simply don't think he is.

I can understand someone without merging cultures with them.  Again, that is just you choosing to think cultures have been merged or destroyed. Nothing in the game says this.  The games says they SHARE.  Even the Reapers SHARE the knowledge of the cultures that came before. 

Find me anything in the game that says Culture is destroyed or merged.  I don't want an interpretation from a still photo.  I want something that says it.  Nothing does.

And your proof that it interpertes otherwise? In Control, I see two cultures that retain their own identities. In Synthesis, I see two cultures that sacrificed their own identities to become one new culture.
Find me proof that diffnitively states otherwise, and THEN come and talk.

And just because you don't think he's lying is proof that everyone else should trust him? He's not even supposed to be part of the Crucible. The Crucible was ment to coordinate dark energy emmisions of the Citadel. Where exactally does the A.I. figure in? If anything, it's likely the Citadel was called Catalyst in whatever cycle the Crucible was altered to interface with it. The race that made it might have found refrence to a "Catalyst" and assumed that was the name of the Citadel.
If anything, the A.I. is a fifth wheel in the process. He's NOT supposed to be there, so why the hell is he? That alone gives me no reason to trust him.

And if you can't comprehend their views because it's reliant on body functions that you do not have? Look at the Drell. Their entire culture was shifted by Hanar interfearance. They altered themselves to fit into hanar culture (drell undergo eye surgery so that they can see in bioluminesance and the ultraviloet spectrum. This blinds them to most other collors).
And AGAIN, I say that the same is true of EMPIRES. Information is "shared' in that. And done without consent. You have NO PROOF WHATSOEVER that this isn't laying the foundation for some hyper-collective, like the Borg from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Or that it isn't already at that phase under the will of the Still-alive Catalyst, or the Leviathans.

The talk about Synthesis. He spicifically says that organic and synthetic life wil be MERGED into a new life-form. That means their respective views will be merged.
...so, what was that you were saying?:whistle:

#854
robertthebard

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Robert I'm loving your work.

Reminds me of this.



Remy's the Reaper.

He stole my haircut...Image IPBImage IPB

#855
remydat

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Silver,

Nope no one said anything about sacrifice.  It was said they would share and understand each other.  EDI says they will recover the greatness lost and surpass it.  I can share and understand you without sacrificing my culture.  Again, all you are doing is jumping to conclusions that the game never states.  The Reapers are flat out said to share the knowlege of previous cultures.  A photo shows Geth and Quarians talking.  What a crime, lol.  

And nope you don't have to believe anything.  I am telling you why I believe the Catalyst.  You are free to form your own conclusions so again, you guys just make up sh*t I never said.  Once again, you are free to believe what you want.  Just don't try to act like the game says it 100% based on photos of two groups talking.  That's just silly.

P.S.  My cousin is color blind.  I am not not.  We both have the same culture having grown up in the same environment.

Modifié par remydat, 20 avril 2013 - 09:19 .


#856
sH0tgUn jUliA

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robertthebard wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Robert I'm loving your work.

Reminds me of this.



Remy's the Reaper.

He stole my haircut...Image IPBImage IPB


Then there's this version :D

#857
robertthebard

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Robert I'm loving your work.

Reminds me of this.



Remy's the Reaper.

He stole my haircut...Image IPBImage IPB


Then there's this version :D



ooo, CSI ME...

#858
sH0tgUn jUliA

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robertthebard wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Robert I'm loving your work.

Reminds me of this.



Remy's the Reaper.

He stole my haircut...Image IPBImage IPB


Then there's this version :D



ooo, CSI ME...


Paragons miss out on all those one liners. Tell me, with one line zingers like that do you see the real disconnect with the ending and the rest of the story?

#859
Argolas

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Paragons miss out on all those one liners. Tell me, with one line zingers like that do you see the real disconnect with the ending and the rest of the story?


Catalyst: I am the reapers. Listen to me.

*Shepard smiles and nods*

#860
robertthebard

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Paragons miss out on all those one liners. Tell me, with one line zingers like that do you see the real disconnect with the ending and the rest of the story?

I honestly believe that FemShep is the ultimate in ReneSheps.  No disrespect intended to Mr. Meer, but some of the Renegade lines just scream "FemShep should be saying me".  But yeah, the Renegade interrupt to blow the Reaper the hell up sets the tone for the end, as far as I'm concerned.  I really hated it when, after 4 playthroughs, I finally get peace on Rannoch, and then have to kill the geth, but the Reapers must die.  None of my dialogs with them have been any different than that one, so why would I want to be their bestest buddy now?Image IPB

#861
silverexile17s

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remydat wrote...

Silver,

Nope no one said anything about sacrifice.  It was said they would share and understand each other.  EDI says they will recover the greatness lost and surpass it.  I can share and understand you without sacrificing my culture.  Again, all you are doing is jumping to conclusions that the game never states.  The Reapers are flat out said to share the knowlege of previous cultures.  A photo shows Geth and Quarians talking.  What a crime, lol.  

And nope you don't have to believe anything.  I am telling you why I believe the Catalyst.  You are free to form your own conclusions so again, you guys just make up sh*t I never said.  Once again, you are free to believe what you want.  Just don't try to act like the game says it 100% based on photos of two groups talking.  That's just silly.

P.S.  My cousin is color blind.  I am not not.  We both have the same culture having grown up in the same environment.

AGAIN, you ignore what I posted. Hyper-jumping them to that point skips past all the natural aclimitization and evolution their cultures could use. It takes generations to reconize the changes and accept them. Once again, you have confused "understand" with accept. Understanding each-other is NOT assurance of eternal peace or cooperation. Trying to hop-scotch that many steps ahead is practally begging to mistep and fall flat on your rear. end. And AGAIN, I feel compelled to remind you that EDI isn't infalible, if the incident with the Reaper IFF is any indacation.

And I AGAIN, remind you that this was NOT the case for the drell, who had to basically sacrifice their culture when they became a client race of the Hanar. Thane tells you that most of drell culture has vanished, since few still follow the old drell parthanon of Gods. Instead of getting a new world, they sacrificed their identity to become the shadows of the Hanar.
And AGAIN, "sharing" can be either volintary, or forced. "You're going to learn, weather you like it or not," basically. After all, the Catalyst is still alive in this, and still driving the galaxy to his vision of perfection. As are the Leviathans. Once again, you FAILED to present anything that diffinitively disproved my assertation. When you DO have something that proves your point, come and talk to me.

And based on how you constantly try to call everyone a headcannon user, forgive me if I call BS on that. You keep trying to tell everyone that they are wrong, even though you never have any proof to back it up.

And in regards to your brother, he doesn't see in ultraviloet. You COMPELETELY missed the point. The point is that you would not be able to comprehend an entire SEPERATE culture based on seeing different light spectrums. If your borther saw in UV, and was part of a culture that was BASED on how you see in UV, THEN it would be relevent. As it is, your brother being color-blind is completely irrlevent, since he and you were part of the same culture since birth, and born into the culture your family was part of for generations. So NO, not the same at all.
And look how culture HAS been affected by genetics in the Mass Effect universe itself.
Salarian culture was affected by their genetics, because of their breeding policies and their short emotional states.
Korgan culture was affected by their genetics, based on how only those that had the most evoloved genes and survival instincts survived to carry on the krogan race.
The yahg developed as a dominating race because of their predatory roots, and their leadership system is based on the "leader of the pack" mentality because of their history as pack-hunters.
Vorcha culture (if you can call it that :P) is based on their short life-spans, meaning that their culture is based on smal tribal groups and blood feuds.
Early asari culture was enamored with the unique parthonogenisis form of reproduction they had, as well as how those with rare genetic conditions, like the vampiric Ardat-Yahshi, were worshiped.
Say what you want, but Genetics DOES play a part in culture, and can be impossible for others to pick up without that genetic memory providing the mindset. The fact that Shepard needed a Prothean Cipher - a blueprint of the GENETIC ancestoral memeory natural to a prothean - to understand the visions provoded by the Beacons, is PROOF that genetics DO indeed play a large part in culture and understanding it.

#862
remydat

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Silver,

How is it that you quote me and then ramble on about my brother when the very post you quoted says my cousin?

In any event, all you are doing is repeating youself. The game does not say Synthesis leads to destruction of culture. If it does, please link me to vids that say this.

Otherwise, all you are doing is giving me your interpretation which you are free to believe. I believe something different. Such is life.

#863
robertthebard

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remydat wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
You forgot this recent development of accusing people of creating strawmen to cover up his red herring AI.Image IPB


Sorry did you provide a link of me calling you a monster?  Didn't think so.  So yes claiming I consider you a monster was a strawman.  A strawman you decided to try and support by quoting Pirate as if I am Pirate.

robertthebard wrote...

There is no confusion, on my part.  You are waving your AI around like an "I win" button.  You have, much like the OP, chosen to ignore the facts that would be in evidence so that you can scream "you people are monsters" from the highest peaks.


See the bolded underline.  Now where is your support that I want to scream you people are monsters from the highest peaks.  Not Pirate but me?  All the while accussing me of genocide and genetic rape, lol.  I await your evidence that does not involve quoting someone else.

http://social.biowar...472/34#16564860
http://social.biowar...472/34#16564915
http://social.biowar...472/34#16566896
http://social.biowar...472/33#16561871
Ok, got bored finding references, I'm quite sure more exist.  Every time you wave your AI around, you are sending the message "you people are monsters, look what you allowed to happen".  Since you do it quite often, I'm sure that "screaming it from the highest peaks" is an applicable metaphor.  What is it that you thought people were going to think?  Oh, look, a headcanon AI that destroys organics, we should re-evaluate our ending choice?  As you can see, some people took it to mean "you people are monsters".  I had decided to just pretend you weren't here, but in re-reading posts to answer something else, this post was bothering me.  It bothers me to leave unwarranted accusations at myself unanswered, even if the person making them avoids answering points or counter points to say things like "super AI that doesn't care why..."  I don't care why you feel like you do.  I don't care why, or how you chose your ending.  You could have spent a week on youtube and it wouldn't affect my game in the slightest.  I do, however, object to the implication that I am a monster for, when I allow myself to get past Harbinger, blowing up the Reapers because somebody feels like my collateral damage is something other than what it is.

#864
radishson

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Sacrificing all organics makes no sense because there would be nothing left for life to evolve from.  Unless we're talking all sentient organics, which my Shep probably would've agreed to.  She was willing to sacrifice pretty much anything to remove the Reaper threat, so synthetic life was no sweat off her back.   You go in expecting sacrifice.  Any less is utter stupidity.  Losing the synthetics is actually one of the easiest sacrifices you could ask for, especially since the geth might already be extinct if you sided with the Quarians on Rannoch.

Modifié par radishson, 21 avril 2013 - 11:31 .


#865
Rip504

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remydat wrote...


:lol::lol::lol:

#866
Fade9wayz

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robertthebard wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Paragons miss out on all those one liners. Tell me, with one line zingers like that do you see the real disconnect with the ending and the rest of the story?

I honestly believe that FemShep is the ultimate in ReneSheps.  No disrespect intended to Mr. Meer, but some of the Renegade lines just scream "FemShep should be saying me".  But yeah, the Renegade interrupt to blow the Reaper the hell up sets the tone for the end, as far as I'm concerned.  I really hated it when, after 4 playthroughs, I finally get peace on Rannoch, and then have to kill the geth, but the Reapers must die.  None of my dialogs with them have been any different than that one, so why would I want to be their bestest buddy now?Image IPB


Totally agree, all my femsheps are Renegade, red suits her better anyway. And now I want the badass shades for her :D

By the way, I admire your tenacity. It is obvious now that that guy doesn't care about a real debate. He just proved it in his last reply to me. All he is interested in is winning at any cost, including integrity. He's just going to twist people's and even his own words around to support his views. Say we are confused, maybe in the hope that if he says that often enough someone will believe him. Produce evidences that he claims prove what he's saying while they actually proved just what WE were saying. Ignoring the arguments that he can't answer and accusing us of nit-picking when he was the one to open the door.I must admit I don't have much patience for such types.

People who desperately look for justification for their control/synthesis choice will embrace his lolzAI argument, the others, like Cosmic, will do so without needing it to justify themselves. It is enough for Cosmic that he/she can't sacrify a species. I can definitely respect that moral stance.
Someone with a modicum of intelligence will recognize this thread for what it was, a sad attempt at showing that Destroyers are either monsters or hypocrites. The premises of this thread were a lose-lose situation for Destroyers.anyway. We should have just responded with:

Cnntrollers, how far would you go to ensure galactic peace? Control Geth? Indoctrtinate Asari? Indoctrinate Krogans? Build 'reeducation' camps? Enslave all the galaxy?

And because the Catalyst never promised peace in Synthesis. How far would you go if Synthesis turned us all in husks? If we lost all individuality? 

That's how stupid the premises of this thread were.

Modifié par Fade9wayz, 21 avril 2013 - 10:55 .


#867
Joryn01

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If destroy killed a single race, regardless of which race it was, even if it was my favorite race, the Quarians, I would still pick it. It's the better choice. If it killed all organics then you might as well just pick refuse.

#868
robertthebard

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radishson wrote...

Sacrificing all organics makes no sense because there would be nothing left for life to evolve from.  Unless we're talking all sentient organics, which my Shep probably would've agreed to.  She was willing to sacrifice pretty much anything to remove the Reaper threat, so synthetic life was no sweat off her back.  That's what happens when you play a badass Renegade using ruthless calculus and not some whiny Paragon crying about "saving everyone" in the face of the largest galactic conflict in history.  ;)  You go in expecting sacrifice.  Any less is utter stupidity.  Losing the synthetics is actually one of the easiest sacrifices you could ask for, especially since the geth might already be extinct if you sided with the Quarians on Rannoch.

Yeah, that was kind of the point to this thread, as far as I can tell.  Just another attempt to dehumanize people that thought Destroy was a good idea.

The thing is, if you're playing Renegade, and actually playing Renegade, you tell TIM on Mars that you're going to blow the Reapers to hell.  Why would I all of a sudden decide that that's not a good idea?  Because TIM told me so?  Because the Reapers told me so?  I don't think so.  "But the peace won't last".  So what?  I never promised the galaxy butterflies and rainbows, I promised to stop the Reapers or die trying.  That is my preferred ending, Ultimate Refusal:  I die in London, getting nuked by Harbinger.  Unfortunately, if you want to play an NG+ save, you have to actually finish the game.  If I'm going that far, I'm going all the way.

#869
Argolas

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Both Paragon and Renegade Shepard are Destroyers, if that is a matter here.

I won't even bother looking for Renegade Shepard Destroy quotes. Paragon Shepard usually talks more about saving everyone than destroying the reapers, that doesn't mean he/she is not a Destroyer though.

Let's see... how was that one Paragon quote again?

"That thing is an abomination. How do we control it?"

"That thing is an abomination. How do we merge with it?"


Damn, I can't seem to remember.

Modifié par Argolas, 21 avril 2013 - 11:59 .


#870
robertthebard

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Fade9wayz wrote...

Totally agree, all my femsheps are Renegade, red suits her better anyway. And now I want the badass shades for her :D

By the way, I admire your tenacity. It is obvious now that that guy doesn't care about a real debate. He just proved it in his last reply to me. All he is interested in is winning at any cost, including integrity. He's just going to twist people's and even his own words around to support his views. Say we are confused, maybe in the hope that if he says that often enough someone will believe him. Produce evidences that he claims prove what he's saying while they actually proved just what WE were saying. Ignoring the arguments that he can't answer and accusing us of nit-picking when he was the one to open the door.I must admit I don't have much patience for such types.

People who desperately look for justification for their control/synthesis choice will embrace his lolzAI argument, the others, like Cosmic, will do so without needing it to justify themselves. It is enough for Cosmic that he/she can't sacrify a species. I can definitely respect that moral stance.
Someone with a modicum of intelligence will recognize this thread for what it was, a sad attempt at showing that Destroyers are either monsters or hypocrites. The premises of this thread were a lose-lose situation for Destroyers.anyway. We should have just responded with:

Cnntrollers, how far would you go to ensure galactic peace? Control Geth? Indoctrtinate Asari? Indoctrinate Krogans? Build 'reeducation' camps? Enslave all the galaxy?

And because the Catalyst never promised peace in Synthesis. How far would you go if Synthesis turned us all in husks? If we lost all individuality? 

That's how stupid the premises of this thread were.

An attempt was made to warp one of the endings in a similar manner early in the thread, and the OP flew off the handle with "You're not allowed to do that, it destroys the premise of the thread", or somesuch to that effect.  It's funny, and sad at the same time.  I don't feel the need to rationalize, or justify my choice.  The Reapers are a clear and present danger that must be dealt with.  I told TIM that we're not ready for that kind of power, not to dissuade him, because I know it's not going to, but because I believe it.  I believe that we're not ready for the responsibility that comes with that kind of power.  Some disagree, and regardless of Paragon or Renegade, that's ok with me.  I don't, however, have to consider their opinion when I'm making my choice.  The other option is just a genetic experiment.  We are asked to trust that the galaxy is truly ready, this time, for Synthesis.  We are told it can't be forced, and are then forced to force it.  That very contradiction is what left me going "this can't end well" the first time I was faced with it.

I was late to ME, I didn't even play 1 until after the EC had been released.  Then I bought them in order, one at a time.  I don't do shooters, and initially, that's what it looked like to me.  There are elements that hold my attention, however, and I have no regrets about buying, or playing it.  I knew there was a controversy about the endings, but not what, exactly, since I didn't spoil myself about it.  Standing there with the options available for the first time, neither Control, nor Synthesis seemed like good ideas.  That premise holds up today, when I know what happens in each ending.  I even shot the kid once, on accident...Image IPB  My trigger finger got itchy.  I didn't feel like a sociopath when I shot the tube.  I didn't get a gleeful happy dance on about killing EDI, the only known synthetic I killed.  I did, however, feel satisfied that I had indeed accomplished my mission.  After three games with Reapers telling me I couldn't comprehend their awesomeness, they were dead.

See, no need to say "you people are monsters" to make myself feel better about my choice.  I don't have to think it, I don't have to write it.  I just have to realize that I accomplished my mission.  If I felt like I had to run down everyone that didn't choose what I chose, then I'd be inclined to believe that I needed to re-evaluate my choice.  If I have to rationalize it, or justify it, it can't be good.

#871
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Robert I may not agree with your London death beam ending...but I'm on board for just about everything else.

Robert for Councilor 2186!

#872
robertthebard

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Robert I may not agree with your London death beam ending...but I'm on board for just about everything else.

Robert for Councilor 2186!

I'm going to decline this nomination, too many headaches.Image IPB

#873
Display Name Owner

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Haven't read through the whole thread, way too much stuff to be bothering with doing that but...

I'm guessing OP's point is about people who choose Destroy at the expense of the Geth being wrong for valuing organic life over synthetic? (and if I'm wrong, I apologise) But isn't the whole question kind of invalid? The only people who lose the Geth because of Destroy are those who either forged peace between them and the Quarians, or who actually chose the Geth over them. So they obviously value the Geth quite highly...

#874
TK514

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If it's the third date and we've got chemistry, then I am prepared to go all the way, baby.

#875
Mangalores

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remydat wrote...
The cycle happens every 50 thousand years but for the majority of a species history, it is too primitive to be subject to the cycle.  Organic life evolved over billions of years. ..


And the evolution of said life gets constantly interrupted by an artificial intervention. The life span of a species is measured in the millions of years so assuming a space faring race has reached the limits of its development is rather short sighted.

Have you missed that just about every move about AI ultimately explores this theme?  We are at the top of the found chain.  We want to remain there.  A truly synthetic life not beholden to serving us will ultimately come in conflict because we will see it as a threat to our dominance and they will perceive us as a threat.  If this is non-sense then you need to stop having sci fi writers come up with stories where this is a common theme.  I can't think of sci fi move which explores this option where this is not the theme.  I am not suggesting this is inevitable.  I am suggesting it is entirely plausible.  If it wasn't, we would not keep seeing this theme recur over and over in sci fi.


Eh, in SF the top of the food chain is rarely the reason for an AI-mankind conflict.  In most instances and even with the Geth its a racial conflict, not a particularly special theme that suggests a special situation. It's based on the humans create their own sins theme, be it enslaving someone or building their own doomsday machine.

The claim that an AI always does this is far beyond that and unfounded. The only AI race we see do it in game is the Reapers themselves.


To answer some of you other questions, AIs would wander the galaxy because they need resources.  Why would they see other organics as a threat.  For the same reason people see anyone as a threat.  They are different that me.  Also, I think you have missed all the posters here who think the Geth are just machines or toasters.  Conflict happens because people can't get past their differences with other people.  This message board is proof that will not change.


Difference is the geth were created by the Quarians so holding that belief is not as farfetched as meeting some unknown machine race who acts like an intelligence. And no, AI don't need resources. The Geth didn't expand, they were content sitting in solar powered space stations because AI don't need anything special, they don't need garden worlds, they don't need special living conditions, they don't have a drive or ambition.
Once the original threat is gone there is no real reason for them to engage anyone with hostilities if there isn't a normal conflict brewing that you see between any of the other races, too.

The Geth conflict shows absolutely no difference to what the Krogan did.

Just from the real world: Based on the assumption that AI probes are the most likely contact we may have with aliens some scientists pointed out that longliving probes based on quantum computers would prefer the zero temperature areas of deepspace as it increases the efficiency of quantum calculations so we might not find them anywhere close to stars.
That's the level of alien physiology we are speaking about.