289 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

DarthSideus2 wrote...

I would actually enjoy having her as a squad mate again. In my mage play through with isabela and anders, she managed to hold her own. It was interesting to hear her take on the qun (though I still like it wild and wonderful ) and I still killed the arishok in act 2. I hear complaints about being tricked into working with her but I can remember some crazy DA choices like drink poison potion to become a warden or I'll kill you or secret deal with desire demon to get blood magic power. If the qunari are going to play a larger role in the next DA, then I would like to see tallis and sten as possible squad mate, but be given the option to choose who I want.

You're entitled to your opinion about Tallis, but having "choices" in name only is the problem with Tallis when the player is hindered from opposing her, no matter what choice we make.

In regards to your examples: Origins is about the player becoming a Grey Warden. That's the premise of the game. You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be. The Grey Wardens are tasked with protecting the world from the Blight, which gives you room to interpret what kind of protagonist you want your character to be. The altruist, or the pragmatist?

Some Grey Warden mages use blood magic to give them an edge against the darkspawn - the greatest threat Thedas has ever faced. The decision to kill, make a deal with, or intimidate the Desire Demon is dependent on the choice made by the player.

You aren't given this freedom in MoTA. No matter what choice you make, you end up helping Tallis get the list of Qunari spies, and doing nothing to stop her. The voluntary deal with the Desire Demon is quite different than being forced to help Tallis protect Qunari spies because the Plot Railroads us - no matter what choice we make. The companions aren't allowed to actually debate Tallis on the stupidity of her Qunari views, the player can't make a move to stop her, and choice again becomes insignificant.

I'm also not sure why a mage would want Tallis as a companion when she comments in Redemption that mages are animals.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...



I'm also not sure why a mage would want Tallis as a companion when she comments in Redemption that mages are animals.

Why  players that roleplay as mages would want Cullen not only as a companion, but a romance? People like conflicted relationship, both friendly and romantic. Plus, Tallis's opinion of mages isn't probably that different than Sten's about a mage Warden as soon as he was recruited. She could understand that she's wrong (doubtul, but anything is possible).

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
In regards to your examples: Origins is about the player becoming a Grey Warden. That's the premise of the game. You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be.

Unless that choice is to refuse to identify with being a Grey Warden. DA:O refuses to allow you to RP a character who wants to save Thedas but who (for example) believes Duncan is a vile kidnapper complict in the death of your parents. The Wynne dialogue is the best example of that. 

You aren't given this freedom in MoTA. No matter what choice you make, you end up helping Tallis get the list of Qunari spies, and doing nothing to stop her.

Like how you can't enter Orzammar or speak with Zathrian unless you go: "YO, totally Grey Warden!" You also don't get to stab Duncan in the throat for leaving your parents to die. 

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
In regards to your examples: Origins is about the player becoming a Grey Warden. That's the premise of the game. You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be.

Unless that choice is to refuse to identify with being a Grey Warden. DA:O refuses to allow you to RP a character who wants to save Thedas but who (for example) believes Duncan is a vile kidnapper complict in the death of your parents. The Wynne dialogue is the best example of that.

Wait.  This veers off-topic a bit, but...I know you can play a Warden who rather dislikes the whole Warden thing, but where is there ANY dialogue about the Warden directly blaming Duncan for their parents' deaths?

[The Hierophant]

I think In Exile's post takes issue with there being few dialogue options to rp, like the lack of dialogue options that blame Duncan for abandoning the HN's parents.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
Wait.  This veers off-topic a bit, but...I know you can play a Warden who rather dislikes the whole Warden thing, but where is there ANY dialogue about the Warden directly blaming Duncan for their parents' deaths?

Not that I recall. 

The Hierophant wrote...

I think In Exile's post takes issue with there being few dialogue options to rp, like the lack of dialogue options that blame Duncan for abandoning the HN's parents.

Not going that far. My point is just that this idea that DA:O had more freedom than DA2 turns a lot on what you want to be free to do. I thought DA2 gave you quite a lot of freedom to be a disinterested smartass, which I found a lot of fun to play and very different from pretty much every RPG out there. 

But I'm not a person that goes for causes. So Hawke not giving a fudge about the mage's plight (one way or another) or the qunari made perfect sense to me.

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

I think In Exile's post takes issue with there being few dialogue options to rp, like the lack of dialogue options that blame Duncan for abandoning the HN's parents.

Ah.  After seeing this comment I had to go back and read that post a full three times before I saw the "refused" bit.  I need sleep...

[The Hierophant]

@ In Exile - My bad thanks for the clarification.

[Bekkael]

Sabariel wrote...

Nope. No Tallis. No Cullen. Nope, nope, nope.

Wait just one little minute there. Let's not get carried away.

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In regards to your examples: Origins is about the player becoming a Grey Warden. That's the premise of the game. You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be.

Unless that choice is to refuse to identify with being a Grey Warden. DA:O refuses to allow you to RP a character who wants to save Thedas but who (for example) believes Duncan is a vile kidnapper complict in the death of your parents. The Wynne dialogue is the best example of that.

I never claimed Origins provided an infinite number of choices.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You aren't given this freedom in MoTA. No matter what choice you make, you end up helping Tallis get the list of Qunari spies, and doing nothing to stop her.

Like how you can't enter Orzammar or speak with Zathrian unless you go: "YO, totally Grey Warden!" You also don't get to stab Duncan in the throat for leaving your parents to die. 

So you decided to ignore how we often had more than one choice in Origins that could bring about a different result (saving or abandoning Redcliffe, what to do about Connor) to bring up some absurd example that has nothing to do with what I said?

[Lady Sif]

Bekkael wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Nope. No Tallis. No Cullen. Nope, nope, nope.

Wait just one little minute there. Let's not get carried away.

Agreed no Cullen is getting too carried away!

[Malanek]

Silfren wrote...

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
In regards to your examples: Origins is about the player becoming a Grey Warden. That's the premise of the game. You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be.

Unless that choice is to refuse to identify with being a Grey Warden. DA:O refuses to allow you to RP a character who wants to save Thedas but who (for example) believes Duncan is a vile kidnapper complict in the death of your parents. The Wynne dialogue is the best example of that.

Wait.  This veers off-topic a bit, but...I know you can play a Warden who rather dislikes the whole Warden thing, but where is there ANY dialogue about the Warden directly blaming Duncan for their parents' deaths?

Presumably the human nobel one where you think Duncan has not done enough. It was a bit grating to leave your mother there. I can't think how you would rationally come to the conclusion of him being a kidnapper though.

DAO did railroad you into becoming a grey warden. It's annoying and at times I think it could have been engineered better but it is much more accepatble to me than MotA mainly because there was no reason not to offer the player the choice of taking the list. The entire Origins game would have fallen over if you didn't become a warden, in MotA it would have been an interesting choice.

Modifié par Malanek999, 18 avril 2013 - 02:08 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I never claimed Origins provided an infinite number of choices.

You said "You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be. "

Except, you're not. You're given a narrow range of choices and personalities, and if you're lucky enough to want to fit within those, then you're free. DA2 is not different in this regard, you're just chaffing against its yoke more. 

An excellent parallel being my beef on how you define your relationships with the GWs and your beef about atheism (let's avoid reshasing the substance of that debate, please :happy:

So you decided to ignore how we often had more than one choice in Origins that could bring about a different result (saving or abandoning Redcliffe, what to do about Connor) to bring up some absurd example that has nothing to do with what I said?

Oh, right, you're intellectual dishonest. I completely forgot. 

Here's what you said: no matter what choice you make, you end up helping Tallis get the list of Qunari spies, and doing nothing to stop her.

No matter what choice you make in DA:O, you end up helping Duncan get darkspawn blood and become a Grey Warden, doing nothing to address his leaving you family to be massacred or bring him to justice. 

I'm not ignoring what options DA:O did (rarely) give you. But saving Connor is exactly like Mercy Among Us or the Feynriel quest - you have multiple outcomes with absolutely zero follow up. 

There's no quest like abandoning Redcliffe in DA2, but otherwise you're blowing what that game actually did out of proportion because DA2 made the poor choice of not being set in a short enough time that no one expected in-game consequences. 

Modifié par In Exile, 18 avril 2013 - 04:53 .

[In Exile]

Malanek999 wrote...
 I can't think how you would rationally come to the conclusion of him being a kidnapper though.  

HN: **** you Duncan, I'm staying with my parents. 
Duncan: I conscript you! 
[Next Scene, Ostagar]

Hmm... what exactly you Duncan forcibly conscripting you into the Grey Wardens, with dessertion = death?

DAO did railroad you into becoming a grey warden. It's annoying and at times I think it could have been engineered better but it is much more accepatble to me than MotA mainly because there was no reason not to offer the player the choice of taking the list. 

There's nothing wrong with being conscripted as a GW. What DA:O does that's exactly why MOTA is assume your motive. You can't not want to be a Warden. You can't say, **** the order, but I'm saving Ferelden anyway for  family, my pride as a Cousland, etc. etc. 

The entire Origins game would have fallen over if you didn't become a warden, in MotA it would have been an interesting choice.

MOTA could have you ambushed by a qunari squad when you try to get the list, with Tallis doing acrobatics to steal it back. You would have still been railroaded into the choice, but you'd get to express your opinion. 

MOTA and DA:O are alike in that it's the outcome that's the problem, it's forcing a belief on your character.

[Sabariel]

Rachel73 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Nope. No Tallis. No Cullen. Nope, nope, nope.

Wait just one little minute there. Let's not get carried away.

Agreed no Cullen is getting too carried away!

No Cullen. No creepy stalkers in my game, thanks. Nope, nope, nope.

[Felya87]

The Wolf Man wrote...

I didn't mind her, but I'd rather see a new character in place of Tallis. Preferably a hot dude.

totally agree. DA2 have a lack of non-emo/anime like-hot guy. (since Varric only see Bianca...>_>)

[KiwiQuiche]

Sabariel wrote...

Rachel73 wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Nope. No Tallis. No Cullen. Nope, nope, nope.

Wait just one little minute there. Let's not get carried away.

Agreed no Cullen is getting too carried away!

No Cullen. No creepy stalkers in my game, thanks. Nope, nope, nope.

He's also a deranged psycho to boot. :|

[Dutchess]

 ^He got better.

[KiwiQuiche]

renjility wrote...

 ^He got better.

Not really. He stood up to Meredith, but only after she went absolutely insane. Useless murderer.

[9TailsFox]

In Exile wrote...
MOTA could have you ambushed by a qunari squad when you try to get the list, with Tallis doing acrobatics to steal it back. You would have still been railroaded into the choice, but you'd get to express your opinion. 

MOTA and DA:O are alike in that it's the outcome that's the problem, it's forcing a belief on your character.

Exectly  this I wanted take list and send it to Alister but Talis wut nop<_< I want to take list if you give me option to do it at least let me try do and end don't mater. Like in citadel DLC you can save certain person or kill him but it don't matter what you pick it still was perfect in MOTO was horrible.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 18 avril 2013 - 10:07 .

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I never claimed Origins provided an infinite number of choices.

You said "You're given choices and freedom in defining what kind of Warden you want your character to be. "
Except, you're not. You're given a narrow range of choices and personalities, and if you're lucky enough to want to fit within those, then you're free. DA2 is not different in this regard, you're just chaffing against its yoke more.

I didn't feel that way. My Surana Warden can express an opinion on the Circle, the templars, blood magic, the Chantry, Andraste, on whether the darkspawn are a dwarven problem, why he's aiding Redcliffe when he speaks to Mother Hannah, and other options. With The Warden, I can say I don't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry, and give an opinion on blood magic; with Hawke, I can't do that.

There's a reason people feel like Hawke is Bioware's character, while they feel like The Warden is their character.

In Exile wrote...

An excellent parallel being my beef on how you define your relationships with the GWs and your beef about atheism (let's avoid reshasing the substance of that debate, please :happy: 

Your "beef" is apparently being angry that I don't share your opinion on pretty much everything. Mages, elves, the option to express atheism again; we would be here all week if we re-hashed everything we disagreed on.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you decided to ignore how we often had more than one choice in Origins that could bring about a different result (saving or abandoning Redcliffe, what to do about Connor) to bring up some absurd example that has nothing to do with what I said? 

Oh, right, you're intellectual dishonest. I completely forgot.

Petty insults. Why am I not surprised?

In Exile wrote...

Here's what you said: no matter what choice you make, you end up helping Tallis get the list of Qunari spies, and doing nothing to stop her.[/b]

No matter what choice you make in DA:O, you end up helping Duncan get darkspawn blood and become a Grey Warden[/u], doing nothing to address his leaving you family to be massacred or bring him to justice[/b].

The premise of Origins isn't the same as being forced into a pro-Qunari position by MoTA. You're the last person who should be calling anyone intellectually dishonest when you pull this crap.

In Exile wrote...

I'm not ignoring what options DA:O did (rarely) give you. But saving Connor is exactly like Mercy Among Us or the Feynriel quest - you have multiple outcomes with absolutely zero follow up. 

There's no quest like abandoning Redcliffe in DA2, but otherwise you're blowing what that game actually did out of proportion because DA2 made the poor choice of not being set in a short enough time that no one expected in-game consequences. 

You're whining about having to play a Grey Warden in a game about being a Grey Warden. I'm addressing the freedom of the player to decide the leadership of Orzammar, the fate of Isolde and Connor, whether the Circle will be annulled or not, whether or not the curse will be lifted for the werewolves, and who will rule over Ferelden. I can also refuse many companions (Wynne, Leliana, Zevran, Sten, even Dog), which isn't really possible in Dragon Age II because most of them are mandatory.

[Nefla]

I wouldn't mind her voicing a character, I liked her in FONV but I definitely don't want Mary Sue in the game.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I didn't feel that way.

That doesn't count as proof.

My Surana Warden can express an opinion on the Circle, the templars, blood magic, the Chantry, Andraste, on whether the darkspawn are a dwarven problem, why he's aiding Redcliffe when he speaks to Mother Hannah, and other options. With The Warden, I can say I don't believe in the Maker, condemn the Chantry, and give an opinion on blood magic; with Hawke, I can't do that.

Of course you can. You can both support and dismiss the templars, the chantry (in conversation with Elthina), you can provide a reason for what you want to do with your post deep road wealth, express political ambition to become the Viscount, and so on. 

Look! I can run off a random list of things too! Do I win the internet like you now?

Edit: Oh, wait, I didn't it wrong. Sorry, my [CHARNAME] Hawke can do those things, because it's totally more authoritative when I write it like that.

There's a reason people feel like Hawke is Bioware's character, while they feel like The Warden is their character.

Yes, there is. But the reason has nothing to do with evidence about what the game actually does. People are entitled to their subjective views - but there's a big difference between liking something and it being true. 

Your "beef" is apparently being angry that I don't share your opinion on pretty much everything. Mages, elves, the option to express atheism again; we would be here all week if we re-hashed everything we disagreed.

No, my "beef" is when you make things up to support what you believe in, outright lie about what features are in the game, or when you support morally bankrupt ideas like racial segregation or the massacre of Orlesian noble children. 

You're whining about having to play a Grey Warden in a game about being a Grey Warden.

And you're right back to being intellectually dishonest. I said that DA:O doesn't give you the option to dismiss the GWs, or Duncan. That's it.  

I'm addressing the freedom of the player to decide the leadership of Orzammar, the fate of Isolde and Connor, whether the Circle will be annulled or not, whether or not the curse will be lifted for the werewolves, and who will rule over Ferelden. I can also refuse many companions (Wynne, Leliana, Zevran, Sten, even Dog), which isn't really possible in Dragon Age II because most of them are mandatory.

Again with the intellectual dishoensty. In DA2 you get to decide whether Fenryeil is a tranquil, abomination or free mage in Tevinter, you get to decide if he's a slave in the Circle or free with the Dalish, you get to decide whether the Starkhaven mages escape from the templars for at least a year or are brutalized in a forest by a sex abuser like Karras, you can decide whether Kerran can support his sister as a templar or live destitute, you can decide whether Fenris is a slave to Danarius or finally becomes free, you can decide whether the Arishok lives or dies, you can decide whether Anders lives or dies ... 


I mean, the list goes on! You get to pick between so many outcomes in DA2! This is what I mean about being completey full of it. 

Modifié par In Exile, 19 avril 2013 - 12:09 .