153 réponses à ce sujet

[KingRoxas]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, the usual suspects denying facts! Nothing new.

[LobselVith8]

Kingroxas wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, the usual suspects denying facts! Nothing new.

 

Except Dave of Canada's comment doesn't make any sense. Xil pointed out that the Dalish characters in Origins had mentioned the longevity of the People, Marethari was over 100 years old in Act II, and even Gaider addressed that the Dalish tend to live longer than the elves living in the Alienage (his exact words provided on the previous page).

Slandering people just because they're pointing out that there's an inconsistency that's clearly apparent? Not really funny.

[KingRoxas]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Kingroxas wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Oh hey, the usual suspects denying facts! Nothing new.

 

Except Dave of Canada's comment doesn't make any sense. Xil pointed out that the Dalish characters in Origins had mentioned the longevity of the People, Marethari was over 100 years old in Act II, and even Gaider addressed that the Dalish tend to live longer than the elves living in the Alienage (his exact words provided on the previous page).

Slandering people just because they're pointing out that there's an inconsistency that's clearly apparent? Not really funny.

Didn't say that i agreed with him, did i? I just posted  as a response to his post. (You may take that as you want, which you did.)

And if i may say so, imo, you come off as really sensitive with your response. (IMO)

[The Hierophant]

Hold up wait a minute there's supposed to be a Debate Off? This is outrageous.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

wow people are still talking about this?

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Next time you say I'm "intellectually dishonest", you might want to try being correct about what you're talking about.

And in this very thread: 

Mary Kirby said... 

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

These statements directly contradict.  You are have no justification behind the intellectually bankrupt argument you've advanced. Note the air qutotes around reclaim - she's clearly implying that there has never been any Dalish elf who has ever lived longer than their natural lifespan, which is the same as all other races, and that the Dalish are completely full of it whenever they claim otherwise. 

As Xil pointed out already, the Dalish characters in Origins already addressed that the People live longer lives.

And as others pointed out in this thread, the Dalish's beliefs about their inherent racial supremacy are proof that they're willing to believe in their racial supremacy, and nothing else.

Except we have Gaider's statement, the dialogue from the Dalish in Origins, and Marethari's age as an indication of what Gaider was talking about.

No, it isn't. It isn't at all! Mary tells you straight up that the only unusually long life is Zathrian and that's blood magic, which directly contradicts that Marethari's age is evidence of anything. And I addressed the Dalish's own views above.

So, no, you're competely intellectually bankrupt, and currently engaging in the equivalent of sticking your hands in your ears and going "La-La-La-La!".

Which is pointed out to have been unusual in Origins (including by the Lady of the Forest - who said the People thought Zathrian reclaimed the immortality of his ancestors), since Gaider already stated that the present day Dalish don't live as long as the Tolkien elves.

I don't follow where you're going with this.

I'm not the one doing mental gymnastics to try to twist Gaider's words into something they don't mean. I'm simply addressing what's actually stated - not reading between the lines for hidden messages just because you intensely dislike the elves.

 I didn't say that DGs statement was wrong. I said that it contradicted MKs, which it does. Please, please offer any proof of any attempt of mind to intrepet DGs statement to mean anything. All I've done is call you out on how intellectually bankrupt you (like always) are being. 

As for my disliking the elves, where does this strange and confusing accusation even come from? The fact that like you, I don't believe without any evidence whatsoever that they're not immortal? That's called "critical thinking" and it's the same reason why I don't believe the Chantry's story about the darkspawn.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 avril 2013 - 10:05 .

[KingsTiger]

Mary Kirby wrote...

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

Iiiiiinterseting... I had suspected as much-the whole "quickening" thing seemed a little too neat, just the perfect reason for elves to feel superior. I kind of like the idea of this species-wide myth that turns out to have been built on what is (arguably) evil magic, just to watch how the news is taken. Would the elven population embrace it, saying that if their ancestors used blood magic, why not them? Or would they reject it, deciding that the immoral nature of such practices is not worth the price? A mix of both, I suspect. Probably not going to show up in DA3, but a cool possibility for the future.

Also, is it just me, or do these elf-centric threads get really nasty? Like, nastier than the Templar-vs-Mage threads? It's like the community berserk button.

[TK514]

KingsTiger wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

Iiiiiinterseting... I had suspected as much-the whole "quickening" thing seemed a little too neat, just the perfect reason for elves to feel superior. I kind of like the idea of this species-wide myth that turns out to have been built on what is (arguably) evil magic, just to watch how the news is taken. Would the elven population embrace it, saying that if their ancestors used blood magic, why not them? Or would they reject it, deciding that the immoral nature of such practices is not worth the price? A mix of both, I suspect. Probably not going to show up in DA3, but a cool possibility for the future.

Also, is it just me, or do these elf-centric threads get really nasty? Like, nastier than the Templar-vs-Mage threads? It's like the community berserk button.

They'd probably just deny it.  The idea that they aren't inherently superior to other races would be too much for their current racial self-image to accept.

Though, really, their Keeper system makes it relatively easy for a 'lost immortality' lie to be created, propogated and maintained.  Just as a hypothetical, mind you, after repeated losses to humanity, the first couple of generations of Keepers could have felt that their race needed a shot in the arm, morale-wise, and decided at one of the first Arlathvhen that a few choice lies should be made part of their history.  A few generations later, there would have been no one alive who would have reason to know or suspect those first Keepers had made history up whole-cloth, not even the current generation of Keepers themselves since they would never have known the truth.  And since the Keepers control Dalish history with an iron grip, who among the elves would ever call them on it?

To be honest, it wouldn't even have to have been a deliberate lie.  All it would take was a persuasive Keeper who misunderstood or extrapolated incorrect conclusions from a rediscovered ancient text, and managed to convince the other Keepers to accept that his/her version was correct.

It probably doesn't hurt that immortality makes such a fantastic carrot on an infinitely long stick.  Short of finding another continent completely devoid of humanity and settling there, the Elves will never be able to fully resegregate themselves, so they'll never be able to prove it one way or another. 

Edit:  Turning it around, it makes as effective a stick as it does a carrot.  Since every union between elf and human results in a human, the broken remnants of the elves were faced with the threat of extinction through mingling.  If the Keepers thought that creating a lie that equated contact with humans with dying young would delay 'death by breeding', I can't imagine they wouldn't do it.  Revisionist history seems a small price to pay to avoid becoming nothing more than history themselves.

Modifié par TK514, 19 avril 2013 - 11:39 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I just came into this thread and would like to comment that some of the exchanges are pretty inappropriate. If you receive a message from me, you'll know that you were one of the ones I disapproved of.

Carry on.

[Jaronking]

I think mages live the longest

[LobselVith8]

KingsTiger wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

Iiiiiinterseting... I had suspected as much-the whole "quickening" thing seemed a little too neat, just the perfect reason for elves to feel superior. I kind of like the idea of this species-wide myth that turns out to have been built on what is (arguably) evil magic, just to watch how the news is taken. Would the elven population embrace it, saying that if their ancestors used blood magic, why not them? Or would they reject it, deciding that the immoral nature of such practices is not worth the price? A mix of both, I suspect. Probably not going to show up in DA3, but a cool possibility for the future.

Also, is it just me, or do these elf-centric threads get really nasty? Like, nastier than the Templar-vs-Mage threads? It's like the community berserk button.

Gaider said something entirely different about the Dalish at Thedas UK Con in Leicestershire, England, on Saturday January 14th, 2012:

David Gaider: "City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."

[TEWR]

Currently, the Dwarves.

EDIT: Well, and Darkspawn. Corypheus lived for 2000 years and you fight an Ancient Darkspawn in the Deep Roads, and it's known that the Taint sustains the Darkspawn and allows them to forego the need for eating (doesn't stop them from eating though).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 avril 2013 - 03:36 .

[The Hierophant]

I don't know about that Lobselvith8? David Gaider has yet to refute Mary Kirby's post. In accordance to the rules of the Debate Off, his statement will be considered fan fiction after 5/1/2013 12:00 P.M.

[jkflipflopDAO]

BlazingSpeed wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

1) Arlathan Elves (supposedly)
2) Golems
3) Dragons
4) Darkspawn

And from there the races kind of even out. ~_^

But are there any Arlathan Elves left?

It would be interesting if there were somewhere in Thedas...

I would imagine there's still some of them around. Either one or two hidden away or maybe you open up some sealed crypt and find one slumbering.

[Catfish Shotgun]

Gooby Plz, Dragons live longest.

Right after the Elder Oak.

[TEWR]

Mary Kirby wrote...

All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse.

Beyond the aforementioned DG quote, we also have Master Ilen talking of his father who fought the Clayne tribes immediately after the Fall of the Dales, which occurred a few centuries prior to Calenhad's uniting of the clans into modern day Ferelden as we know it.

Then, there's Stalata Negat, all of which is written by the same Shaper for at least six centuries. 

Beyond that, Orta in the Shaperate asks you to reclaim scrolls from Ortan Thaig about the lineage of House Ortan. The last name recorded on there was from four centuries ago, yet Orta says she recognizes her great-grandmother's name.

So... to be blunt (but not rude), they can't live the same amount of years or even approximately the same amount.What Origins provided contradicts such a claim.

andy69156915 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

But that's clearly contradicted by several lines of dialogue in DAO, with what was said about Dalish living "long lives," and Master Ilen's father having lived back to a time before Calenhad united Ferelden. So either city elves also live that long, or I request that you reassess this statement.

You are amazing(ly idiotic). So when a Bioware person working on the series tells you differently then what you wanted to believe so much in that elf thread, you tell that Bioware person that they are wrong and that you are right. A-freaking-mazing. You're so bigheaded that your head must have its own gravitational field with planets orbiting it. Seriously, you're trying to tell a guy involved with the canon of the series that your own fan canon is more accurate.

Well that escalated quickly...

Yeesh, days old this may be it doesn't excuse how you acted. No, she's not saying what she believes is the truth of the matter over what Mary Kirby is saying. She's saying that what Origins directly provides contradicts a claim that the races of Thedas live the same lifespan.-

As she (and I) said, Master Ilen tells us of how his father fought against the Clayne tribes pre-Calenhad/immediately post Fall of the Dales. That was six centuries prior to DAO, roughly. 

That's enough evidence to say that something's not jiving well. Even if the Dalish's long lifespan is due to something that isn't isolation, that doesn't negate the fact that they live for a long-ass time well beyond humans and city Elves.

And beyond that, the Dwarves certainly live a long lifespan. See my post above this one.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 avril 2013 - 03:52 .

[BlueMagitek]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

I would imagine there's still some of them around. Either one or two hidden away or maybe you open up some sealed crypt and find one slumbering.

Arlathan Elves are now Antedeluvians/Cain?  Oh dear. :/

[KiwiQuiche]

The elves, before humans infected them.


Now, probably golems. Or dragons. Maybe spirits, but I dunno.

[Allan Schumacher]

Tidied up some posts. My moderating comment above has more to do with the direction that the thread was several days ago.

It's fine to disagree with the idea. Don't attack the poster in doing so please.

[Hex of Hell]

If the elves really lived longer when isolated from humans, wouldn't the Qunari know about it? I mean, there are humans and elves following the Qun. They're all about efficient breeding and everyone filling their role. Surely, they would have tested breeding and raising elves in isolation from humans in order to determine whether this was the case, and responded accordingly. Those elves are perfectly good tools of the Qun. A good tool is one that lasts, not one that you let get used up too quickly because you didn't take good care of it. Yet, I haven't seen any evidence that the Qunari segregate their human and elf constituents. So, I'm skeptical as to the likelihood of the claim.

Modifié par Captain Hex, 20 avril 2013 - 04:06 .

[Elhanan]

Old gods? *Bazinga*

[Nightdragon8]

Captain Hex wrote...

If the elves really lived longer when isolated from humans, wouldn't the Qunari know about it? I mean, there are humans and elves following the Qun. They're all about efficient breeding and everyone filling their role. Surely, they would have tested breeding and raising elves in isolation from humans in order to determine whether this was the case, and responded accordingly. Those elves are perfectly good tools of the Qun. A good tool is one that lasts, not one that you let get used up too quickly because you didn't take good care of it. Yet, I haven't seen any evidence that the Qunari segregate their human and elf constituents. So, I'm skeptical as to the likelihood of the claim.

the amount of time needed for such a "breeding" program is at the very least 1000 years... thats a heck of a long case study... considering you only get "old age" data from when they die "natrually" and not because of serious injury.

[Hex of Hell]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

the amount of time needed for such a "breeding" program is at the very least 1000 years... thats a heck of a long case study... considering you only get "old age" data from when they die "natrually" and not because of serious injury.

Not sure where you got that value from, but it's a vast overestimation. All that would be needed is 3 groups, one raised normally, one entirely isolated from humans, one even more intermingled with them than usual. See how long each lives. Then see how long their offspring live in the same conditions. Assuming they live around 100 years, it still wouldn't even take you to 200 years, unless you are assuming elves only reach breeding age at the moment of death. If they had their children at around 25-30, you would only need to wait an extra 30 years, or 130 years total, to determine whether there was any significant difference between the two groups. Because the claim is that elves become longer lived the longer they are apart from humans, it is not necessary to wait an eternity to determine if they are immortal, only a statistically significant difference which can be attributed to human contact. Though I doubt they would go into so much detail in the lore. Nobody loves a good stat anymore.

[The Spirit of Dance]

Whatever Flemeth is.

[mk123]

Hang on - so assuming Qunari have relatively long lifespans, what do they do with Qunari who get too old to carry out their Qun-assigned roles? Like a soldier who is too old to fight any more? It doesn't seem like there's much of a place in Qunari society for people who aren't useful...