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[Angrywolves]

Mike Laidlaw allegedly said at Pax East that having Merrill fix the mirror was a bad call. Changing the personalities of Merrill and Anders from what they had been in the past was a bad decision imo. Read Lady Insanity's blog to read more about it.

[MisterJB]

Right, I don't know who Lady Insanity is but did Mr.Laidlaw say that having Merril, and not someone else, fix the mirrior was a bad call or did he say that fixing the Mirror was a bad call from Merril?

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 avril 2013 - 02:21 .

[TEWR]

Oh goodie, Bioware's trying to say the woman who pulls facts out of her ass was right and that Merrill, the person who actually did research (not to mention how Morrigan's comments disprove Marethari's baseless assertions) is somehow wrong.

Bah.

I really hope that, if Mike Laidlaw has any weight to his word on what is true for the series, this is simply his personal outlook on the matter and not a factual outlook on the matter.

Because if it's the latter, then I'll be pissed. All evidence shows Marethari the Abomination as wrong, so to say she's right would just be an asenine thing to do.

Not to mention another slap in the face for DA2's Mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 02:04 .

[MisterJB]

Is too soon for this video?



Yeah, a bit too soon. I'll wait for more context.

[Knight of Dane]

I didn't know Merrill had a personality to change..

I sure didn't get to judge her properly the 10 minutes she talked in DA:O

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I don't think the mirrors have ever been anything but ambiguous in nature. What evidence there may or may not have been against what Marethari said was never proof and there was always the chance that she was correct.

Morrigan says they go beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade, meaning that they don't link up to the Fade at all. Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped anyway, so it wouldn't have been possible for him to use it if the Eluvians could link to the Fade (which they can't).

Marethari repeatedly refused to do any sort of research on it, and when she does miraculously come to this "conclusion" she's an Abomination -- who shows itself capable of perfectly replicating Marethari's voice, mannerisms, and so on.

Furthermore, the spell Merrill used to cleanse it of the Taint was simply Dalish healing magic proven to have fought off the Taint in Mahariel in an unamplified state. Here, her blood was the amplifier, and lyrium would've sufficed as well had she had buckets of it.

If it ends up the fixed mirror ends up being a hellgate and Merrill meets a terrible fate, that was always a possibility since the beginning. The danger of hubris has always been a part of Merrill's tale, tinkering with the unknown.

It's kinda hard for something to be a hellgate to the Fade when Morrigan says they don't lead to the Fade at all, but beyond it. Or that Marethari didn't do any research on the Eluvians at all -- repeatedly saying she wants nothing to do with them, much like I'm doing with what I'm saying -- and the fact that Demons lie.

And Morrigan felt safe enough not only leaving an untrained OGB on the other side, but going there herself.

Which indicates knowledge of what lies on the other side.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Morrigan says they go beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade, meaning that they don't link up to the Fade at all. Audacity was sundered from the Fade and trapped anyway, so it wouldn't have been possible for him to use it if the Eluvians could link to the Fade (which they can't).

We don't know that. The fact that the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade did not stop the mirror from being in Thedas. So, who's to say it can't be connected to the Fade as well?

[TEWR]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I didn't know Merrill had a personality to change..

She actually remains internally consistent between the two games. Despite Bioware's protests to the contrary, she did have a personality. And it didn't change into something else, as some posters like to say.

She's confident amongst her clan in both games, she follows Dalish protocol in both games, and so on.

See what I wrote here for more on the matter.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 02:40 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

We don't know that. The fact that the Eluvians lead to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade did not stop the mirror from being in Thedas. So, who's to say it can't be connected to the Fade as well?

The Elves of Arlathan built it, so that's why it exists in Thedas. I think if it could connect to the Fade, it'd have to take a very particular spell. One that I doubt Merrill would even go through with, if Marethari was right.

And that's a huge if, because I'm not taking Abomination Marethari's word as being indicative of jack ****.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 02:44 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Elves of Arlathan built it, so that's why it exists in Thedas. I think if it could connect to the Fade, it'd have to take a very particular spell.

And that's a huge if, because I'm not taking Abomination Marethari's word as being indicative of jack ****.

Wherever it may lead, there must something like the Eluvian on the other side or people would be trapped. Therefore, it not impossible that it could use the Fade as sort of a stop before the destination given the fact that a sort of "receiving-Eluvian" must exist on the other side which means there could be a "receiving-Eluvian" in the Fade which is open at all times unless the mirror is damaged or "turned off".

I put more faith in Marethari's words. She is clearly struggling against the demon or she wouldn't have revealed it's location. Where she learned this, I don't know.

[Knight of Dane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I didn't know Merrill had a personality to change..

She actually remains internally consistent between the two games. Despite Bioware's protests to the contrary, she did have a personality. And it didn't change into something else, as some posters like to say.

She's confident amongst her clan in both games, she follows Dalish protocol in both games, and so on.

See what I wrote here for more on the matter.

The only things I saw in Dragon Age: Origins was a female elven mage who knew about nature and elven culture.
None of that was indicative of a personality to me.

Perhaps hints, but I never considered Merrill and established character in the first game.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Wherever it may lead, there must something like the Eluvian on the other side or people would be trapped. Therefore, it not impossible that it could use the Fade as sort of a stop before the destination given the fact that a sort of "receiving-Eluvian" must exist on the other side which means there could be a "receiving-Eluvian" in the Fade which is open at all times unless the mirror is damaged or "turned off".

Except the Fade is the realm of thoughts. Tangible materials cannot exist in there. People can't even go there bodily. The only time that happened was with Corypheus and his ilk, and that required the blood of countless slaves and a ****load of lyrium.

And let's not forget that the place they even went -- the Black City -- isn't even technically a part of the Fade like everything else is. It resides there, but it's sort of its own destination, the only constant of a place comprised entirely of thoughts.

Demons and Spirits avoid going there.

I put more faith in Marethari's words. She is clearly struggling against the demon or she wouldn't have revealed it's location. Where she learned this, I don't know.

She's possessed by a Demon. Audacity could be lying to Merrill about the Eluvian's "purpose" to make Merrill feel dejected -- and thus easier to beat -- and say "You must kill me" to make Merrill also try NOT to do it. In other words, tell Merrill what she must do so as to make Merrill incapable of doing it simply because of what it entails.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Except the Fade is the realm of thoughts. Tangible materials cannot exist in there. People can't even go there bodily. The only time that happened was with Corypheus and his ilk, and that required the blood of countless slaves and a ****load of lyrium.

And let's not forget that the place they even went -- the Black City -- isn't even technically a part of the Fade like everything else is. It resides there, but it's sort of its own destination, the only constant of a place comprised entirely of thoughts.

Demons and Spirits avoid going there.

And if the Black City IS Arlathan, then there is a connection. All I'm saying is that it's not out of the realm of possibility that something could have used the Eluvian to reach Thedas. It is, after all, a portal.

She's possessed by a Demon. Audacity could be lying to Merrill about the Eluvian's "purpose" to make Merrill feel dejected -- and thus easier to beat -- and say "You must kill me" to make Merrill also try NOT to do it. In other words, tell Merrill what she must do so as to make Merrill incapable of doing it simply because of what it entails.

There wouldn't even be a need to discourage her from killing Marethari if she didn't know the demon was there. All it had to do as stay hidden, return to the camp and no one is the wiser.
And even if it wished to taunt Merril, there are ways of doing so without making itself pass of as Marethari. Something like "Foolish girl, I tricked you all along." would be far more in-character to a Pride Demon.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I didn't actually say a Hellgate to the Fade. I just said a Hellgate.

Fair enough.

And honestly... you don't know the extent of Audacity's capabilities.

I do. Demons, when they don't have a host to possess, grow weaker. Sunder them from the Fade and their abilities grow even weaker, as they draw their power from their connection to the Fade. Even Marethari in the short story considered him as not being a threat, because the extent of what he could do was whisper to people -- which grew louder the closer you got to him -- and create illusions in his immediate vicinity, all while being trapped and sundered from the Fade (something Merrill even echoes in-game).

Also, Demons are at their most powerful in the Fade, capable of immense power. Outside, not so much.

You don't know what Marethari did or did not know.

I know that in all three Acts, when asked if she'll help research the Eluvians, she spurns the idea of even researching them.

She repeatedly says she wants nothing to do with them, that she doesn't want to research them. She even said this in DAO.

You don't know what lies beyond the Fade

I know that Morrigan felt safe going there and leaving an untrained child on the other side, as she says the OGB is already past the Eluvian. And the kid's only 1.5 years old.

or if that's the extent of the Mirrors' capabilities, since it's not like Morrigan gave you the exhaustive user's manual explanation of the Mirror's functions.

The Warden asks her where they lead and she answers with the beyond Thedas, beyond the Fade line. It's not "Where does this one lead?". It's "Where do the Eluvians lead?" and she doesn't say "This particular one goes to X".

You don't even know the shard was truly cleansed except for Merrill's word, or that cleansing the shard means it is now totally safe.

Other then the fact that Merrill went 7 years without getting tainted, without the Alienage's residents getting tainted, the fact that Merrill knows a specific spell capable of fighting the Taint (per DAO and DAII) in an unamplified state, and the fact that Anders says nothing about it being Tainted when he's literally 2 feet away and will interject in conversation if present.

If it was Tainted, Anders would've said so in the effort for Hawke to not help Merrill. He could sense the Taint in Bethany/Carver and Duncan could sense the Taint in Mahariel/the mirror.

You could counter by saying that routinely contradicting evidence makes for a stupidly arbitrary world

It does.

[BlueMagitek]

Of course, if Aduacity is a Pride Demon, truth can be just as damaging as a well told lie.  Or lying may be beneath it.

Tinkering with the object everyone from Duncan to the Keeper said is bad led to a bad ending. How amusing.

And that Merrill "did research" on the Eluvian doesn't mean that :

A) Anything would pan out (research often leads to dead ends / bears no fruit)
The sources were correct
C) The sources are correct now

EDIT:

Fixed the first line.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 14 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

And if the Black City IS Arlathan, then there is a connection.

Well, one, the Black City existed long before Arlathan's fall. David Gaider once said in the past that the people of Old Tevinter -- before the Magisters and thus before the war with Arlathan when the city fell -- saw the City in the Fade. I shall attempt to dig up the quote.

Two, there's more evidence to say that it's the city Tamlen saw underground. If you ask me, Arlathan rests underneath the Silent Plains, a permanently tainted place.

Three, you'd have to explain how an Eluvian can act as a miniature black hole that manages to suck in itself, or how an entire city could be shoved through a mirror.

All I'm saying is that it's not out of the realm of possibility that something could have used the Eluvian to reach Thedas. It is, after all, a portal.

Of course it's a portal. I just take issue with this "It goes to the Fade" nonsense because:

1) Tangible objects cannot exist in the Fade
2) The Black City -- or Golden, or Polkadot, or whatever -- was visible long before Arlathan fell
3) Tamlen saw a city underground, and Arlathan was reputedly sunk underground by the Magisters. And it's something that not only the Elves believe, but rather the Dwarves and other Thedosian scholars.

There wouldn't even be a need to discourage her from killing Marethari if she didn't know the demon was there. All it had to do as stay hidden, return to the camp and no one is the wiser.

Actually, blood mages can detect the scent of sulphur in a person's blood, which is what Demons smell like.

Remember the blood pool in the Alienage near the orphanage that smelled like bad eggs? Bad eggs is what sulphur smells like.

Merrill was a threat.

And even if it wished to taunt Merril, there are ways of doing so without making itself pass of as Marethari. Something like "Foolish girl, I tricked you all along." would be far more in-character to a Pride Demon.

Mouse says hi. He tries to trick the Mage Warden by assuming a different identity. Uldred also says hello -- and he's calling you a thorn in his side -- because he still identified as Uldred (and not Uldred).

Then you've also got Wryme, who assumes the identity of Keeper Marethari to subtly manipulate Feynriel and taunt him about how powerful he is.

And the Baroness.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

That is the extent of what he can directly do (even that is only what you know of, explicitly, not necessarily the whole story). But what he could possibly manipulate a gullible mage into doing for him (and that could include both Marethari and Merrill) is yet another story.

Manipulation is not a power exclusive to Demons, nor did I say he coudln't manipulate people. You'll find that in all of my arguments on this matter in the past, it was my belief that because Marethari chose to remain at the base of a mountain where Audacity could whisper to her -- as opposed to Merrill, who was miles away from the Demon and proximity affects how 'loudly' he can whisper to people -- that she was manipulated into freeing him based on her fears of the Eluvian.

And besides, for all of Hawke's idiocy in the main game when it comes to his companions he will step up to the plate. So even if Merrill started considering doing it, Hawke would stop her.

Which was, you know, why Merrill brought Hawke along in the first place. In case the Demon tried something, despite Merrill's strong intentions to not go there with the goal of freeing the Demon from his prison (something she tells an aggressive Hawke).

She spurns the idea of helping Merrill research them.

She spurns the idea of having anything to do with them. It's the Eluvians she has a major problem with. Merrill researching them is only ancillary. Marethari let one bad experience with the Eluvians dictate her view of them entirely. That they're evil, should all be cast away and forgotten, and that they shouldn't be researched AT ALL.

These are the things she says in-game.

But she also cares deeply for Merrill's safety and could have very well researched enough to know what Audacity told her was actually true. No, you don't know.

Yes, I do know. If she actually did the research and found it to be true, then why in God's name didn't she go back to the Alienage and tell Merrill and show her the evidence pointing to it? She's obviously willing to go the Alienage to help out a stranger to her clan, so I'd think she'd go there to show Merrill evidence, if she had any.

Manipulation on Audacity's part is the answer, but more then that her repeated protests on doing any iota of research on the subject -- with Merrill or without being irrelevant to the idea of research in general -- show that she wasn't going to research them and thus that she doesn't have any proof.

Besides, she wants them to be forgotten, anything dealing with them cast away. She's not going to have any information on them. And considering Merrill was taught to read every book and tome Marethari had in her possession and how in DAO Marethari said she's "never heard of a mirror in all her tomes", I'd say Marethari has nothing even dealing with the Eluvians.

If I told you that there's a portal that leads to Thedas, it could lead to anywhere from a dragon's den to the Grand Cathedral. Just because Morrigan's baby is safe beyond the Fade, does not mean that beyond the Fade is safe.

Fair enough.

*shrug* It could be dormant.

Blood magic was shown to have a proven effect on the Taint, per Avernus' ability at using such magic on his own body to prolong its detrimental side-effects on him. The only reason he couldn't nullify them was because he's a living person with the Taint coursing through his body, whereas the Eluvian shard is an inanimate, lifeless object and thus capable of being cleansed entirely.

The taint is a mystery in itself. You did ignore the part about the mirror being dangerous regardless though.

Didn't ignore. Just didn't address.

I don't see anything to suggest that Marethari's reasoning for it being dangerous has any merit. In terms of it being dangerous in the sense of it being technology, well yes. Sure. All knowledge is potentially dangerous, all technology capable of abuse by the wrong people.

I would prefer to think of it, in this instance, as a delightful subversion of expectations that brings a little clarity to a world full of ambiguities.

Well, you and I are very different people.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2013 - 04:21 .

[LobselVith8]

Angrywolves wrote...

Mike Laidlaw allegedly said at Pax East that having Merrill fix the mirror was a bad call. Changing the personalities of Merrill and Anders from what they had been in the past was a bad decision imo. Read Lady Insanity's blog to read more about it.

Considering that it lead to Keeper Marethari acting foolishly and endangering the entire Sabrae clan by becoming an abomination, as well as the clan attempting to murder Merrill in cold blood if Hawke tells them the truth or warns the clan not to attempt to murder Merrill, that's certainly one way to look at it.