213 réponses à ce sujet

[TheProtheans]

MEHEM is more than fanfic.
It is basically the canon ending to the trilogy.

[SiriusXI]

nrobbiec wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

The main problem with the MEHEM is people keep on making threads about it outside the Fan Creations forum.

This is Story and Campaign section. AKA, not the "Why do people hate MEHEM" section.

Yeah MEHEM is just an au fanfic. Not really much sense in people losing their rag about it if you look at it that way.

The fact that a lot of people consider it better than the original, at least better than synthesis, control and refuse, clearly shows that it is a topic that is worth talking about. If we go by popularity, MEHEM has more right to be in the story section than control and synthesis.

Furthermore, it does not really matter if it is canon or not. It IS story relevant, simply because it is NOT part of the canon story. This absence in the story is a valid criticism OF the story. Therefore MEHEM is perfectly fine in the story section.

Modifié par SiriusXI, 14 avril 2013 - 12:04 .

[SiriusXI]

TheProtheans wrote...

MEHEM is more than fanfic.
It is basically the canon ending to the trilogy.

Also this. From a logical point of view, seeing how the story was progressing over the course of 3 games, MEHEM is more in line regarding plot, story, themes and genre than any of the original endings. The problem is the existence of the catalyst. No matter what Bioware says, from the point of view of logic and game-internal features, MEHEM is canaon, even more than the original endings.

Any student of literature relatively early learns that the "authors intention" matters really nothing. What is more important is what is going on "within the text" (text can mean text, as well as game or movie), and how recipients of this text receive it. This includes reactions to it, emotions, interpretations, and so on.

Having said that, it is obvious that ME3's ending, from the point of view of the text and recipients, was a failure. It does not make sense, it depresses people, and it leads people to actually creating their own, fixed, versions of it.

[NovaBlastMarketing]

SiriusXI wrote...

nrobbiec wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

The main problem with the MEHEM is people keep on making threads about it outside the Fan Creations forum.

This is Story and Campaign section. AKA, not the "Why do people hate MEHEM" section.

Yeah MEHEM is just an au fanfic. Not really much sense in people losing their rag about it if you look at it that way.

The fact that a lot of people consider it better than the original, at least better than synthesis, control and refuse, clearly shows that it is a topic that is worth talking about. If we go by popularity, MEHEM has more right to be in the story section than control and synthesis.

Furthermore, it does not really matter if it is canon or not. It IS story relevant, simply because it is NOT part of the canon story. This absence in the story is a valid criticism OF the story. Therefore MEHEM is perfectly fine in the story section.

 wow I could have highlighted this entire  post   just  simply  full of  QFT points

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 14 avril 2013 - 12:11 .

[NovaBlastMarketing]

SiriusXI wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

MEHEM is more than fanfic.
It is basically the canon ending to the trilogy.

Also this. From a logical point of view, seeing how the story was progressing over the course of 3 games, MEHEM is more in line regarding plot, story, themes and genre than any of the original endings. The problem is the existence of the catalyst. No matter what Bioware says, from the point of view of logic and game-internal features, MEHEM is canaon, even more than the original endings.

Any student of literature relatively early learns that the "authors intention" matters really nothing. What is more important is what is going on "within the text" (text can mean text, as well as game or movie), and how recipients of this text receive it. This includes reactions to it, emotions, interpretations, and so on.

Having said that, it is obvious that ME3's ending, from the point of view of the text and recipients, was a failure. It does not make sense, it depresses people, and it leads people to actually creating their own, fixed, versions of it.

QFT

Modifié par NovaBlastMarketing, 14 avril 2013 - 12:12 .

[Pakundo]

The ONLY REASON MEHEM makes the game better, is because it REMOVES THE CATALYST!

Absolutely not!

The ONLY reason why I prefer MEHEM is because Synthetics don't get destroyed in this Shepard-lives-destroy ending!
The catalyst can stay as it is for all I care, just give me an ending that doesn't make me feel terrible ffs.

Modifié par Pakundo, 14 avril 2013 - 12:18 .

[robertthebard]

SDW wrote...

There's one thing that keeps happening when someone mentions MEHEM:
Some people who enjoyed the original ending come on the thread and angrily complain about and mock the mod.
I don't get it. It's an optional thing that you are not forced to install. So nobody is taking what you liked away from you.

What are you trying to say? To me, this comes across as "Oh, *you* were unhappy about the original ending? Well, *I* was not and thus I hereby declare you have no right to seek for other ways of ending the story that you and I both played."  Does their happiness anger you? Why that? I can only hypothesize it's got to do with the bitterness with which the ending debate was sometimes led and that those attacking MEHEM might feel it makes the pro-ending side "lose" in some way. But it doesn't - how would it? It's just people acting on something they disliked instead of just complaining about it. (Incidentally, wasn't that one of the things that was sometimes criticized - that anti-enders keep on "whining" about the ending and should stop that, dead horse and all?)

Please try to look at it this way: It's great for you that you had a wonderful run from start to finish. Other people would love to *share* that very same experience. MEHEM is a possible way for them.
They're not your enemies. They're here for the same reason as you after all - they're fellow fans. 

Maybe you should spend a few hours looking back at some of the older threads where people that liked the endings(not that I understand that)were called bio drones and instructed to leave, or told that they didn't have a right to an opinion.  Of course, you could also just look at some some of the more recent threads to get your sample too, such asthis one the OP is so invested in the game that he claims that all the Synthetics we meet in ME 1 or 2 were either neutral or friendly. 

So yeah, let's not pretend that either "side" is innocent of pretending that they are more entitled than the other.  It's been an ongoing thing here since ME 3's release.  So "Hold the Line", it's working out really well for that side so far.

Modifié par robertthebard, 14 avril 2013 - 12:25 .

[Iucounou]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Oh believe me, you and your ilk have all but ensured they'll never try anything new ever again.

There's a time and a place for trying new things - for being inventive and creative - for thinking about art rather than profit.

That time is not in the last few minutes of what, until then, had been an enjoyable (if predictable and fairly traditional) space opera.

You say that, because of people like us, Bioware will never try anything new ever again. It's all our fault, right?

Well, maybe it is because of people like you, who probably hated the ending to ME2 and complained about it so much, that we ended up with red/green/blue space magic for an ending to ME3. I'm glad you seem to like what is essentially a ridiculous, contrived and rushed ending so well.

I honestly hope BW do try new things. I have no problem with that. None whatsoever. What I do hope is that they've learned not to make a game series with one thematic tone throughout, only to change it at the last moment for no good reason at all.

[FlamingBoy]

RukiaKuchki wrote...


I don't think this is true at all. This is a statement like that made by a teenager who tells their parent they have no idea what it feels like to be a teenager. In other words, something that makes me giggle with its absurdity. Bioware created a game that a lot of the fans didn't like. That's it. They didn't sabotage their own game because they didn't care about it. Their way of thinking didn't resonate with some people. The story they wanted to tell was not the story some people wanted to be told. Creating games is a labour of love for most people...the vast majority of people in that business certainly don't do it for the money. 

Rather than undermine Bioware, I actually think Bioware would be quite flattered that someone cares so much about the game that they have invested their time, intellect and skills into taking the bare bones of what Bioware created and expanding on it. Changing it. Manipulating it into something they wanted. The MEHEM demonstrates that there is a portion of the fan base who care so deeply about the franchise, their Shepard and their story that they refuse to walk away until they are satisfied. If there was nothing good there to begin with, people would have walked away a long time ago.

Thank you for quoting me fully, always appreciated when people use single paragraphs (not even) which offer only some of the point implying that the narrowest perspective possible was my opinion.

My argument was not so much a criticism of bioware but a section of the fanbase who feel threaten by the concept of bioware being undermind
"There are a significant group of people who find criticism of the
company as criticism of themselves (this can be seen all through out
media)"- FlameBoyBen

You cut out my justifications for my reasoning and pretended as though it did not exist and choosed not to argue it.
"the existences shows the disturbing reality that mass effect was cared
more about the fans than the actual creators. ME3 was never ending
nonsense of multiplayer, day one dlc, concerns about the plot,
Microtransactions, developers caught telling lies (or untruths),....,
and the ending"-  FlameBoyBen

This was in my opinion evidence of bioware not caring, which was ommited from a decent counter response and pretended not to exist. The ... (in your quoting not my work) is used to shrink the quote to fit in essays, It does not negate what was said or to focus on the parts that you like or would best fit your counter argument.


Please continue "giggling" with this absurd notion of the opinion you have constructed for me.
If you wish to actually have a debate on what I actually bloody said in context of what was written, I might give you the honor of a response.

Edit: I some how manage to delete the altered quote fortunetly I will provide it

....the existences [of the MEHEM] shows the disturbing reality that
mass effect was cared more about the fans than the actual creators.
......As I said in the beginning the existence of MEMEM (In fact
anything that shows bioware in an unfavorable light) undermines the
company.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 14 avril 2013 - 12:32 .

[robertthebard]

FlamingBoy wrote...

RukiaKuchki wrote...


I don't think this is true at all. This is a statement like that made by a teenager who tells their parent they have no idea what it feels like to be a teenager. In other words, something that makes me giggle with its absurdity. Bioware created a game that a lot of the fans didn't like. That's it. They didn't sabotage their own game because they didn't care about it. Their way of thinking didn't resonate with some people. The story they wanted to tell was not the story some people wanted to be told. Creating games is a labour of love for most people...the vast majority of people in that business certainly don't do it for the money. 

Rather than undermine Bioware, I actually think Bioware would be quite flattered that someone cares so much about the game that they have invested their time, intellect and skills into taking the bare bones of what Bioware created and expanding on it. Changing it. Manipulating it into something they wanted. The MEHEM demonstrates that there is a portion of the fan base who care so deeply about the franchise, their Shepard and their story that they refuse to walk away until they are satisfied. If there was nothing good there to begin with, people would have walked away a long time ago.

Thank you for quoting me fully, always appreciated when people use single paragraphs (not even) which offer only some of the point implying that the narrowest perspective possible was my opinion.

My argument was not so much a criticism of bioware but a section of the fanbase who feel threaten by the concept of bioware being undermind
"There are a significant group of people who find criticism of the
company as criticism of themselves (this can be seen all through out
media)"- FlameBoyBen

You cut out my justifications for my reasoning and pretended as though it did not exist and choosed not to argue it.
"the existences shows the disturbing reality that mass effect was cared
more about the fans than the actual creators. ME3 was never ending
nonsense of multiplayer, day one dlc, concerns about the plot,
Microtransactions, developers caught telling lies (or untruths),....,
and the ending"-  FlameBoyBen

This was in my opinion evidence of bioware not caring, which was ommited from a decent counter response and pretended not to exist. The ... (in your quoting not my work) is used to shrink the quote to fit in essays, It does not negate what was said or to focus on the parts that you like or would best fit your counter argument.


Please continue "giggling" with this absurd notion of the opinion you have constructed for me.
If you wish to actually have a debate on what I actually bloody said in context of what was written, I might give you the honor of a response.

Edit: I some how manage to delete the altered quote fortunetly I will provide it

....the existences [of the MEHEM] shows the disturbing reality that
mass effect was cared more about the fans than the actual creators.
......As I said in the beginning the existence of MEMEM (In fact
anything that shows bioware in an unfavorable light) undermines the
company.

Maybe because one cannot argue a justification?  It is, at the end of the day, subjective, and therefore nothing more than an opinion, and since opinions can stink, they can't be right or wrong, since the motivations for having it belong solely to the person that owns it.  To simplify, I can't tell you what to feel.  Nor can I effectively argue against what you feel, so why bother to quote it if I'm going to address your point, unless, of course, I'm going to try to find out why you feel that way.  Frankly, I don't care, I just find it amusing that people feel the need to whinge about somebody not addressing their feelings, when really, feelings should be off the table for discussion.

[FlamingBoy]

robertthebard wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...

RukiaKuchki wrote...


I don't think this is true at all. This is a statement like that made by a teenager who tells their parent they have no idea what it feels like to be a teenager. In other words, something that makes me giggle with its absurdity. Bioware created a game that a lot of the fans didn't like. That's it. They didn't sabotage their own game because they didn't care about it. Their way of thinking didn't resonate with some people. The story they wanted to tell was not the story some people wanted to be told. Creating games is a labour of love for most people...the vast majority of people in that business certainly don't do it for the money. 

Rather than undermine Bioware, I actually think Bioware would be quite flattered that someone cares so much about the game that they have invested their time, intellect and skills into taking the bare bones of what Bioware created and expanding on it. Changing it. Manipulating it into something they wanted. The MEHEM demonstrates that there is a portion of the fan base who care so deeply about the franchise, their Shepard and their story that they refuse to walk away until they are satisfied. If there was nothing good there to begin with, people would have walked away a long time ago.

Thank you for quoting me fully, always appreciated when people use single paragraphs (not even) which offer only some of the point implying that the narrowest perspective possible was my opinion.

My argument was not so much a criticism of bioware but a section of the fanbase who feel threaten by the concept of bioware being undermind
"There are a significant group of people who find criticism of the
company as criticism of themselves (this can be seen all through out
media)"- FlameBoyBen

You cut out my justifications for my reasoning and pretended as though it did not exist and choosed not to argue it.
"the existences shows the disturbing reality that mass effect was cared
more about the fans than the actual creators. ME3 was never ending
nonsense of multiplayer, day one dlc, concerns about the plot,
Microtransactions, developers caught telling lies (or untruths),....,
and the ending"-  FlameBoyBen

This was in my opinion evidence of bioware not caring, which was ommited from a decent counter response and pretended not to exist. The ... (in your quoting not my work) is used to shrink the quote to fit in essays, It does not negate what was said or to focus on the parts that you like or would best fit your counter argument.


Please continue "giggling" with this absurd notion of the opinion you have constructed for me.
If you wish to actually have a debate on what I actually bloody said in context of what was written, I might give you the honor of a response.

Edit: I some how manage to delete the altered quote fortunetly I will provide it

....the existences [of the MEHEM] shows the disturbing reality that
mass effect was cared more about the fans than the actual creators.
......As I said in the beginning the existence of MEMEM (In fact
anything that shows bioware in an unfavorable light) undermines the
company.

Maybe because one cannot argue a justification?  It is, at the end of the day, subjective, and therefore nothing more than an opinion, and since opinions can stink, they can't be right or wrong, since the motivations for having it belong solely to the person that owns it.  To simplify, I can't tell you what to feel.  Nor can I effectively argue against what you feel, so why bother to quote it if I'm going to address your point, unless, of course, I'm going to try to find out why you feel that way.  Frankly, I don't care, I just find it amusing that people feel the need to whinge about somebody not addressing their feelings, when really, feelings should be off the table for discussion.

Yeah if you have half a bloody brain, you could argue that those things don't account for biowares caring in mass effect 3. You could provide evidence on bioware support to mass effect 3 (such as multiplayer dlc). I don't even agree with what I am saying right now and I already have written a compelling argument.

I know everything is subjective, Now if you acutally have an opinion say it. Don't tell me what I already know
Any one can hide behind the subjectivity argument, but large parts of my argument was erased and not argued in his post, Thats the bloody issue.

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 14 avril 2013 - 12:41 .

[ThinkSharp]

As someone not personally invested on either side, I'll throw in my unasked for impression. It didn't seem like a formal debate with you, FB, but rather an opinion in response to your opinion.

[Kais Endac]

 In my opinion the main issue is the fact that there is a very visible split on BSN thus when a topic is created that has the words Destroy,Synthesis,Control,Ending,MEHEM in it it will usually attract some very vocal supporters and opponents, who end up arguing and insulting one another in what sometimes degenerates into simple name calling. To me there is no majority for or against the ending (especially on BSN) we are all just some very loud passionate fans who liked/disliked the direction the endings took.


Personally while I play games that have Dark/Bittersweet endings (though I'm not a fan of them and will usually avoid them unless the ending or game is brilliant) I never expected ME3 to have one, In fact I became too emotionally attached to the characters that I wanted nothing more than a "happy" ending or rather one with a clearer Shepard lives scene. 

Bioware's history with previous endings (and choices)  also acted against the ME3 endings given that there has always been happy endings where the hero lives and walks into the sunset. (even if that hero usually disappears/dies in sequels  )

ME3 was also the first bioware game to actually make the choices difficult especially if (like me) you liked the geth and edi but wanted to destroy the reapers and/or allow shepard to live. 

Modifié par Kais Endac, 14 avril 2013 - 12:50 .

[FlamingBoy]

ThinkSharp wrote...

As someone not personally invested on either side, I'll throw in my unasked for impression. It didn't seem like a formal debate with you, FB, but rather an opinion in response to your opinion.

A response to an opinion actually has to include at least some of the parts I said, you cannot just ignore it

It was more the editing exemplifying the significant parts while avoiding the explanation.
This is not a debate format your right, but an obvious strawman is not appreciated in simple conversation

Modifié par FlamingBoy, 14 avril 2013 - 12:52 .

[robertthebard]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Yeah if you have half a bloody brain, you could argue that those things don't account for biowares caring in mass effect 3. You could provide evidence on bioware support to mass effect 3 (such as multiplayer dlc). I don't even agree with what I am saying right now and I already have written a compelling argument.

I know everything is subjective, Now if you acutally have an opinion say it. Don't tell me what I already know
Any one can hide behind the subjectivity argument, but large parts of my argument was erased and not argued in his post, Thats the bloody issue.

Because I have no opinion about MEHEM, or the endings, since I die in London, and don't care?  I was simply addressing what you said in the post I quoted.  Everything else is moot to me.  Now, if you want to discuss my discussion of your point, I'm down for that.  If you want to discuss MEHEM, you're going to have to find somebody that actually downloaded it, because I didn't.  It doesn't handwave away surviving Harbinger's laser, so it's useless to me.  Points down at sig.

[FlamingBoy]

robertthebard wrote...


Because I have no opinion about MEHEM, or the endings, since I die in London, and don't care?  I was simply addressing what you said in the post I quoted.  Everything else is moot to me.  Now, if you want to discuss my discussion of your point, I'm down for that.  If you want to discuss MEHEM, you're going to have to find somebody that actually downloaded it, because I didn't.  It doesn't handwave away surviving Harbinger's laser, so it's useless to me.  Points down at sig.

Well you can quote the orginal post and argue that, the post you quoted was my counter to a post where my opinion was misrepresented in the narrowest way possible. And honestly I am a real stickler about it

Also since this is a MEHEM thread, I automatically assume that people have at least seen it, apologies

[RukiaKuchki]

FlamingBoy wrote...

Well I find the reason why people do it is because its existence undermines bioware. There are a significant group of people who find criticism of the company as criticism of themselves (this can be seen all through out media).

One of the early fallacies of this controversy was "why don't you make your own ending" or something along those lines. Well someone bloody did with significantly less resources than bioware. His/her passion of the franchise in admirable.

Back to the original post, the existences shows the disturbing reality that mass effect was cared more about the fans than the actual creators. ME3 was never ending nonsense of multiplayer, day one dlc, concerns about the plot, Microtransactions, developers caught telling lies (or untruths),...., and the ending. As I said in the beginning the existence of MEMEM (In fact anything that shows bioware in an unfavorable light) undermines the company.

Or its possible they just really did not like it

I don't think this is true at all. This is a statement like that made by a teenager who tells their parent they have no idea what it feels like to be a teenager. In other words, something that makes me giggle with its absurdity. Bioware created a game that a lot of the fans didn't like. That's it. They didn't sabotage their own game because they didn't care about it. Their way of thinking didn't resonate with some people. The story they wanted to tell was not the story some people wanted to be told. Creating games is a labour of love for most people...the vast majority of people in that business certainly don't do it for the money. 



Rather than undermine Bioware, I actually think Bioware would be quite flattered that someone cares so much about the game that they have invested their time, intellect and skills into taking the bare bones of what Bioware created and expanding on it. Changing it. Manipulating it into something they wanted. The MEHEM demonstrates that there is a portion of the fan base who care so deeply about the franchise, their Shepard and their story that they refuse to walk away until they are satisfied. If there was nothing good there to begin with, people would have walked away a long time ago.

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 14 avril 2013 - 01:09 .

[RukiaKuchki]

FlamingBoy wrote...

You cut out my justifications for my reasoning and pretended as though it did not exist and choosed not to argue it.

One has to edit your posts sometimes to make sense of them. Separating the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Apologies if that confused or horribly offended you, but I suspect I won't be losing sleep over it. Good diversionary tactics though.

[MetioricTest]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

Oh believe me, you and your ilk have all but ensured they'll never try anything new ever again.

Literally thinks the Catalyst was something "new" and "original."

The dilemma was a ripoff of Dues Ex. And Dues Ex was openly a ripoff of the old Foundation Novels.

Meanwhile the Catalyst himself is (ironically) close to literally the definition of Dues Ex Machina.

There was nothing new, different, risk-taking or original about the Catalyst. It was just all round bad.

And before you get on my case, I have never seen or downloaded MEHEM.

[RukiaKuchki]

Oops.

Modifié par RukiaKuchki, 14 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[Dunabar]

If a person needs MEHEM to feel better about playing Mass effect, then more to them in my opinion. However...

While I'm happy they found a means of getting their desired ending, I still don't count MEHEM as a true ending in the series. It's just a fan generated bit of work which does deserve respect for the work that was put into it, but in the end it's still just fan generated, and not one of the true endings of Mass effect 3.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm hating on the mod, I promise I'm not. I just don't count it as one of the true possible endings of Mass effect 3. Till BioWare acknowledges MEHEM as one of the true possible endings, it will still forever be a fan made creation.

Once more I'm not hating on the mod, I just cannot count it as one of the true endings of ME3.

If it makes you happy though, go for it.

[Maximanimo]

MEHEM sucks

[CosmicGnosis]

MyChemicalBromance wrote...

The reason people attack it is lingering animosity against the retakers. They always claimed they weren't upset because the ending was sad. They always said they had such great reasons for being upset. And then every single time something came along that made things happier, regardless of whether or not it made sense, they got happier.

You can understand why people would harbor ill will to this group of entitled half-wits that destroyed this community for the sake of their waifus.

Wow, I thought this was going to be a boring thread, but you made it quite interesting. I never really had much of an opinion about MEHEM. If it helps people get over the ending, that's okay, but I would never use it because I can't deviate from the canon that freely. But you have just pointed out MEHEM's critical flaw: the word "happy". The title completely undermines the argument that upset fans wanted more than a straightforward happy ending.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 14 avril 2013 - 01:49 .

[JamesFaith]

SDW wrote...

There's one thing that keeps happening when someone mentions MEHEM:
Some people who enjoyed the original ending come on the thread and angrily complain about and mock the mod.
I don't get it. It's an optional thing that you are not forced to install. So nobody is taking what you liked away from you.

Well, many resons was mentioned here but I would say one more - MEHEM was used as another "weapon"  in ending disusion for long time. I personally donť care about it, it isn't impress me and I'm simply ignoring it, but yet I was quite pissed by regular "So play MEHEM.", "MEHEM is better.", MEHEM this and that people using against me and my personal opinions.

And as Robert said here it is also mistake of agresive campaign against pro-enders after release of ME3. When people where bashed, flames and insulted (bio-drones is still good compare to sh*eaters and such) for their personal opinions, don't be now suprised that most of "normal" pro-enders simply leave from here and most of those, who stayed, are same aggresive as people who tried to chase them away year ago.

You reap what you seed.

[CosmicGnosis]

SiriusXI wrote...

The fact that a lot of people consider it better than the original, at least better than synthesis, control and refuse, clearly shows that it is a topic that is worth talking about. If we go by popularity, MEHEM has more right to be in the story section than control and synthesis.

It's amazing how desperately some people try to discredit Control and Synthesis.