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[EmperorSahlertz]

Or it could just be her armies taking advantage of the weakened state of the Imperium. If she had actually been casting spells, there would have been much more to base her supposed magical talents on, than natural events prior to an invasion.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Andraste was a human, that much is certain, who her father was is irrelevant, and there is nothing to suggest that she had any magical ability. Andraste was an inspirational figure for sure, but nothing points towards magic. Some have put forward a theory on her being a mage, but it is largely unsubstantiated.

Bullsh*t.  There is plenty of reason to suspect that Andraste was a mage, and more to the point, we're EXPECTED to be suspicous that she was a mage;  the tantalizing hints wouldn't be shoved in our faces otherwise. 

[Vit246]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Or it could just be her armies taking advantage of the weakened state of the Imperium. If she had actually been casting spells, there would have been much more to base her supposed magical talents on, than natural events prior to an invasion.

Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

Modifié par Vit246, 20 avril 2013 - 08:51 .

[MisterJB]

Vit246 wrote...
Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

And don't you think that Andraste might just have, at one occasion or the other, used magic in a less impressing fashion were she a mage? Something like Cone of Cold couldn't be explained as "The Maker did it" and yet we have heard no mention of any of this. Only of miraculous feats that could be due to natural ocurrences
The elves, for instance, would have no problem saying "Andraste was a mage" but the Dalish make no such claim.
The only people who claim Andraste was a mage are the magisters who have a vetted interest in justifying their continued dominance.

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 avril 2013 - 08:59 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Orlais Chantry for some reasons hiding Andraste descendants, and very fiercely burns all researchers and their books what claimed that Andraste was a mage

and specially hides/corrects some of the songs of light...like with Shartan

we even be in her Tomb filled with Lyrium and have lots ash demons and her Ash contained Lyrium and was able to heal bloodmagic poisons

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 09:17 .

[BlueMagitek]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Orlais Chantry for some reasons hiding Andraste descendants, and very fiercely burns all researchers and their books what claimed that Andraste was a mage

and specially hides/corrects some of the songs of light...like with Shartan

we even be in her Tomb filled with Lyrium and have lots ash demons and her Ash contained Lyrium and was able to heal bloodmagic poisons

Shartan was removed because of political reasons.  Once you sack the Chantry's Vatican City, so to speak, you get written out.

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

She just wasn't a power wh*ring egotist like them. She wholeheartedly followed the Maker's word and it rebukes such tyranny.

[Asdrubael Vect]

BlueMagitek wrote...


Shartan was removed because of political reasons. 

and Orlais Chantry founded by Dracon after Second Blight have a many reasons to remove many things.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Youth4Ever wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

She just wasn't a power wh*ring egotist like them. She wholeheartedly followed the Maker's word and it rebukes such tyranny.

do not be so naive, she wanted to rule Thedas by herself-"Maker will" and she's most likely was possesed by demon

1)Andraste born after First Blight in very weakned Tevinter Empire(actually on the former/abandoned lands of the Empire),  and was born as slave and live in a poor Ferelden village near brecillian forrest

2)she have a very hard life and after she was  seen "Maker" in her dreams-fade(and she later was always saw and talk with him, but no one exept her can't)

3)then she was somehow become a SINGLE WIFE(who always claim herself as Maker's wife) of Maferat chief of big barbarian clan, and fully command him and his armys 

4)then she easily annexed even more Barbarians clans, conquer south and go against north to Tevinter where she even have elves by her side....and even "nature helps her"

5)when Maferat who always be her mindless servant  was quickly betrayed her(blood magic like we see in Kirkwall Brothel was gone/weakneed and he can resist her) and gave to the Magisters who was very quicly wanted to exeсute her, and she was burned on fire while Archont himself for some reasons personally cut her head with sword....so someone tried to summon demons or making elemental spells while burned on fire and only Archont was able to deal with her

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 10:04 .

[Vit246]

MisterJB wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

And don't you think that Andraste might just have, at one occasion or the other, used magic in a less impressing fashion were she a mage? Something like Cone of Cold couldn't be explained as "The Maker did it" and yet we have heard no mention of any of this. Only of miraculous feats that could be due to natural ocurrences
The elves, for instance, would have no problem saying "Andraste was a mage" but the Dalish make no such claim.
The only people who claim Andraste was a mage are the magisters who have a vetted interest in justifying their continued dominance.

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

Just as you say. We have heard no real mention of any of this. Books like The Search for the True Prophet are supposed to be burned at the stake for heresy and blasphemy. Such talks are dangerous by the modern Chantry.

And why would the Dalish care about whether Andraste was a mage? Its of no matter to them.

Why would she fight against the Imperium? I dunno, MAYBE because she didn't like it?Maybe because she didn't like the whole slavery thing and being a slave? Maybe because she was raised in a poor village in the backwater lands of the south and gained different morals? Just cuz you're a mage doesn't mean you're on the same side. Anders as an Andrastian is disgusted by the Imperium.

And as I said, who knows what really happened a thousand years ago. Maybe it was natural. Maybe it was magic. Maybe somebody made something up and there's nobody else to really confirm or dispute it.

Modifié par Vit246, 20 avril 2013 - 09:50 .

[Dave of Canada]

Maybe there's too many maybes being said.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Maybe there's too many maybes being said.

remember Corypheus, when he talks with Dumat,

so what if mage Andraste find(she lived near Brecillian forest and DRAGON'S PEAK) and drink blood of some High Dragons like Calenhad and Ancient Magisters(Tevinters actually abandored  serving Old Gods after First Blight)

and remember Colgrim with cultists who drinking blood and worship dragons too

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 10:23 .

[MisterJB]

Dark Korsar wrote...
do not be so naive, she wanted to rule Thedas by herself-"Maker will" and she's most likely was possesed by demon

Right, so this extremely powerful mage Andraste wants to rule the world but rather than elevate herself to the position of supreme leader of an already extablished empire and then use its infrastructure to solidify control over Thedas, she chooses to defy this empire with group of clans who were much less advanced.
That's illogical.

[MisterJB]

Vit246 wrote...
Just as you say. We have heard no real mention of any of this. Books like The Search for the True Prophet are supposed to be burned at the stake for heresy and blasphemy. Such talks are dangerous by the modern Chantry.

That is true but the facts remains that we have seen no mention of Andraste using her supposedly magical powers for anything other than tremendous demonstrations of power which I find very unlikely were she a mage.

And why would the Dalish care about whether Andraste was a mage? Its of no matter to them.

The Dalish would take any opportunity to destabilize the human kingdoms. And even if they didn't, you'd think they'd mention at some point Andraste using abilities quite similar to magic.

Why would she fight against the Imperium? I dunno, MAYBE because she didn't like it?Maybe because she didn't like the whole slavery thing and being a slave? Maybe because she was raised in a poor village in the backwater lands of the south and gained different morals? Just cuz you're a mage doesn't mean you're on the same side.

I, for one, doubt that there is anyone in the world that sefless.
But even if we assume Andraste was a mage who wished to free the non-mages, why not become Archon and change the Imperium from within? Unless she was not a mage.

Anders as an Andrastian is disgusted by the Imperium.

Anders is intrigued by the Imperium. Both the Warden and Hawke can question him about it and both times, he shows support for the Imperium's beliefs.
Hell, he supports selling Fenris to Danarius.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Or it could just be her armies taking advantage of the weakened state of the Imperium. If she had actually been casting spells, there would have been much more to base her supposed magical talents on, than natural events prior to an invasion.

Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

If she was actually a mage, history of Thedas would look entirely different, as would the Andrastian religion. If a mage was the one who saved humans from the mage tyranny, the entire outlook of the Chantry on mages would be different. History would not forget such a crucial fact. Hundred if not thousands of people were exposed directly to Andraste, yet not one, not even her enemies described her as a mage. Only in later days have some random fella, proposed a theory that said she were a mage. That is the only so called "hint" you get towards it. Everything else can be explained by simple tactical and strategic cunning.

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
do not be so naive, she wanted to rule Thedas by herself-"Maker will" and she's most likely was possesed by demon

Right, so this extremely powerful mage Andraste wants to rule the world but rather than elevate herself to the position of supreme leader of an already extablished empire and then use its infrastructure to solidify control over Thedas, she chooses to defy this empire with group of clans who were much less advanced.
That's illogical.

what you suggested is illogical

1)Andraste was a powerfull mage but not really extremely, and all her  powers were be because of demon possession or High Dragon blood, maybe both

2)Andraste was never be a part of Tevinter Empire, she was born as slave in the poor barbaric village on the borders of long time ago abanored Empire territories

3)Andraste was never be a part of Ancient Magister Dynasties who ruled Tevinter and only their can become Archonts and have powers for that

3)Less advansed barbarian mage Andraste use all what she have starting with mindcontrolling of less advansed Maferat and his less advansed tribes, but it would never work in Tevinter

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 11:21 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Or it could just be her armies taking advantage of the weakened state of the Imperium. If she had actually been casting spells, there would have been much more to base her supposed magical talents on, than natural events prior to an invasion.

Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

If she was actually a mage, history of Thedas would look entirely different, as would the Andrastian religion. If a mage was the one who saved humans from the mage tyranny, the entire outlook of the Chantry on mages would be different. History would not forget such a crucial fact. Hundred if not thousands of people were exposed directly to Andraste, yet not one, not even her enemies described her as a mage. Only in later days have some random fella, proposed a theory that said she were a mage. That is the only so called "hint" you get towards it. Everything else can be explained by simple tactical and strategic cunning.

In a world where 90% of the people are illiterate and their is  no easy way of spreading information. (has book printing even been diiscoverd?) controlling and manipulating information is easy. Look at the chant of mafereth which complelety contradicts what the chantry is saying.  I doubt the chantry themselves know what Andraste really was.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
do not be so naive, she wanted to rule Thedas by herself-"Maker will" and she's most likely was possesed by demon

Right, so this extremely powerful mage Andraste wants to rule the world but rather than elevate herself to the position of supreme leader of an already extablished empire and then use its infrastructure to solidify control over Thedas, she chooses to defy this empire with group of clans who were much less advanced.
That's illogical.

This has happend in our own world a dozen times before. especially in the medieval times.

[Asdrubael Vect]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


If she was actually a mage, history of Thedas would look entirely different, as would the Andrastian religion. If a mage was the one who saved humans from the mage tyranny, the entire outlook of the Chantry on mages would be different. History would not forget such a crucial fact. Hundred if not thousands of people were exposed directly to Andraste, yet not one, not even her enemies described her as a mage. Only in later days have some random fella, proposed a theory that said she were a mage. That is the only so called "hint" you get towards it. Everything else can be explained by simple tactical and strategic cunning.

1)Orlais Chantry were founded by Orlais Emperor Dracon after Second Blight and they deafeted many "false" Andrasian cults

2)Orlais Chantry claimes that Andraste wanted to save non-mages from Tevinters mages tyranny and what all mages are bad

3)Tevinters and Imperium Chantry describe her as mage, and many non-Tevinters researchers in their books describe her as mage


1020 TE: A massive horde of barbarians cross the Waking Sea from the south led by the warlord Maferath and Andraste the Betrothed of the Maker. Some records claim the barbarians were driven north by the darkspawn, others that Andraste was bringing freedom to the people of the Imperium who had been long oppressed by the depravities of the magisters. Regardless of the reason, the press of the barbarians into the south is accompanied by massive rebellions that welcome their progress. The southern Imperium begins to crumble, and the Tevinter magisters are forced to unite to combat a threat to their power that is greater than that of the darkspawn.

1025 TE: After the death of Andraste, the barbarian army disperses. The southern Tevinter Imperium breaks away, forming a collection of independent city-states. Maferath's sons form several lands such as the Kingdom of the Ciriane and the Kingdom of the Planasene. Both of these last less than a century—the Ciriane soon become the land of Orlais while the Planasene form a loose confederation across the plains called the Free Marches. The land between the Waking Sea and the Frostbacks is given to the free elves as a homeland and is called the Dales. The Long Walk begins as elves from across the Imperium begin traveling to the Dales largely on foot and are preyed upon by disease and robbers, causing massive chaos. A cult devoted to Andraste's teachings spreads rapidly in the south but is largely disorganized and is very unpopular with the temples of the Old Gods.

1040 TE: The Chant of Light is created by Andraste's disciples, collecting her story and her teachings into hymns. There ARE NUMEROUS VERSIONS of the Chant over time, with different interpretations of what Andraste taught about the Maker being prevalent in different regions. These are referred to collectively as "the cults of the Maker."

1180 TE: The cults of the Maker spread quickly in the southern lands, resulting in the building of the first great temple in Val Royeaux which becomes the major center of worship for the new faith. One of its most fervent followers is the young king of Orlais, Kordillus Drakon. In 1184, Drakon begins a series of holy wars in the name of the Maker, quickly proving himself to be one of the greatest generals in history.

1192 TE: Having conquered several neighboring city-states and forced others to submit to his overlordship, Kordillus Drakon is crowned in Val Royeaux as emperor. His ambitions to spread farther north into the Free Marches are confounded by constant pressures from the Dales to the east, so Emperor Drakon formalizes the Maker's cult into the Chantry and commands that missionaries be sent forth into the other lands.

1195 TE or 1:1 Divine (1st year of the 1st Divine Age): The first Divine Justinia I, is instated at Val Royaux. The free use of magic is declared illegal in  except by those mages operating under the direct auspices of the Chantry.

1:20 Divine: The Nevarra Accord is signed: the Seekers of Truth agree to serve the Chantry. The Circle of Mages then born from this agreement.

9:40 Dragon: Following the dissolution of the Circle of Magi, the Nevarra Accord was declared null and void by Lord Seeker Lambert van Reeves. The Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order no longer follow the Chantry's orders.[/list]Hawke's former companion Varric Tethras is interrogated by Casandra Pentagast, one of the few Seekers of Truth still loyal to the Chantry. Both the Warden-Commander and the Champion have mysteriously disappeared by this time.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 20 avril 2013 - 11:59 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Or it could just be her armies taking advantage of the weakened state of the Imperium. If she had actually been casting spells, there would have been much more to base her supposed magical talents on, than natural events prior to an invasion.

Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

If she was actually a mage, history of Thedas would look entirely different, as would the Andrastian religion. If a mage was the one who saved humans from the mage tyranny, the entire outlook of the Chantry on mages would be different. History would not forget such a crucial fact. Hundred if not thousands of people were exposed directly to Andraste, yet not one, not even her enemies described her as a mage. Only in later days have some random fella, proposed a theory that said she were a mage. That is the only so called "hint" you get towards it. Everything else can be explained by simple tactical and strategic cunning.

In a world where 90% of the people are illiterate and their is  no easy way of spreading information. (has book printing even been diiscoverd?) controlling and manipulating information is easy. Look at the chant of mafereth which complelety contradicts what the chantry is saying.  I doubt the chantry themselves know what Andraste really was.

It would actually seem that many, if not most, of the population of Thedas is capable of reading. There are numerous accounts of characters mentioning some sort of written letter, or other lieary source of their knowledge. Even Castless Dwarves dispel basic comprehension of written language.
Furthermore, while in the case you present it would be easy to manipulate historical texts, it would only be easy, if those capable of reading and writing all belonged to the same faction. However in Thedas there are a myriad of different factions all capable of reading, which would make such manipulation extremely difficult.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...
And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

Because people are individuals and it is a fact that some people DO believe in things like justice and fair-play, even if they have the tools to subjugate others.  The problem here isn't that there's no such thing and therefore Andraste couldn't possibly have been a mage; It's that YOU, personally, can't wrap your head around the idea.  But I know you are aware of the fallacy of letting your personal prejudices dictate your reasoning.

Andraste was a slave before she was anything else.  There is no reason in the world why she can't have decided that certain things are just wrong, and worth fighting against, despite being a person who could have risen to power in her own right.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 avril 2013 - 12:22 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Because people are individuals and it is a fact that some people DO believe in things like justice and fair-play, even if they have the tools to subjugate others.  The problem here isn't that there's no such thing and therefore Andraste couldn't possibly have been a mage; It's that YOU, personally, can't wrap your head around the idea.  But I know you are aware of the fallacy of letting your personal prejudices dictate your reasoning.

Andraste was a slave before she was anything else.  There is no reason in the world why she can't have decided that certain things are just wrong, and worth fighting against, despite being a person who could have risen to power in her own right.

It's extremely unlikely that any person, at all, when confronted with the option to either become the leader of the greatest empire in the world or lead a revolution to create a more equal society will pick the latter.
It's not about Andraste being a mage (if she was), it's about Andraste being a person. People just are not that selfless.

Unless, of course, Andraste was not a mage in which case she could feel a connection to the other non-mages slaves and wish to free them or simply wish to build her own empire.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 01:13 .

[MisterJB]

Dark Korsar wrote...
what you suggested is illogical

You wouldn't know logic if I hit you in the face with it which I have tried to do so in the past.

1)Andraste was a powerfull mage but not really extremely, and all her  powers were be because of demon possession or High Dragon blood, maybe both

1-There is no evidence whatsoever of Andraste being either possessed or a Reaver.
2-If she was, that would not have stopped her from using that power to become Archon.
3-If the feats attributed to the Maker were simply Andraste's magic, then she was capable of controlling the weather of a nation which would make her the most powerful mage that ever lived.

2)Andraste was never be a part of Tevinter Empire, she was born as slave in the poor barbaric village on the borders of long time ago abanored Empire territories

She was a runway slave from the Tevinter Imperium. Get your facts right.

3)Andraste was never be a part of Ancient Magister Dynasties who ruled Tevinter and only their can become Archonts and have powers for that

Which doesn't matter considering she was the most powerful mage that ever lived if she was a mage at all.

3)Less advansed barbarian mage Andraste use all what she have starting with mindcontrolling of less advansed Maferat and his less advansed tribes, but it would never work in Tevinter

1-There is no evidence of Andraste being a mage, let alone a blood mage.
2-Sure it would.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 01:08 .

[azarhal]

Dark Korsar wrote...

1195 TE or 1:1 Divine (1st year of the 1st Divine Age): The first Divine Justinia I, is instated at Val Royaux. The free use of magic is declared illegal in  except by those mages operating under the direct auspices of the Chantry.

Justinia I is the person responsible for the treatments of mages. She cherry picked lines of the the Canticle of Transfiguration, than added her own propaganda to the mix. Look at the Maleficarum codex entry, one of her sermons, and compare it to the Canticle of Transfiguration. Actually, mages and bloodmagic/forbidden magics is never mentioned in the parts of the Chante of Light that we have.

The funny part the is that the Chantry use magic (links to the whole interview where the stuff below is coming from):

TUK: The Templar abilities, are they--despite the Chantry's protestations--a form of magic?

DG:
I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is
magic. The tricky thing there is that the Chantry is awfully
hypocritical when it comes to magic, in that there are sorts of magic
that they will use. Actually I should take that back, it's not
necessarily that they're hypocritical, they don't have anything against
magic itself. Magic can be useful, they know the mages are useful. It's
the elements of possession and blood magic, all the forbidden magic
where things get really dicey. Even if Templar magic was recognized as
spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped
taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as
Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards. I
think part of that was just the requirements of gameplay, for us to have
a specialization as well, so some of that story doesn't quite match up
with the gameplay, and I think eventually we'd like to work the lyrium
requirement back into the gameplay as well. Regardless the magic the
Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic,
there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against
mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and
go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also
has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so
there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Because people are individuals and it is a fact that some people DO believe in things like justice and fair-play, even if they have the tools to subjugate others.  The problem here isn't that there's no such thing and therefore Andraste couldn't possibly have been a mage; It's that YOU, personally, can't wrap your head around the idea.  But I know you are aware of the fallacy of letting your personal prejudices dictate your reasoning.

Andraste was a slave before she was anything else.  There is no reason in the world why she can't have decided that certain things are just wrong, and worth fighting against, despite being a person who could have risen to power in her own right.

It's extremely unlikely that any person, at all, when confronted with the option to either become the leader of the greatest empire in the world or lead a revolution to create a more equal society will pick the latter.
It's not about Andraste being a mage (if she was), it's about Andraste being a person. People just are not that selfless.

Some people ARE that selfless, actually.  I get that you've got a very negative viewpoint toward humanity in general, but quite beyond that, you insist on this black and white, all or nothing perspective which has no basis in logic or reality.