656 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
what you suggested is illogical

You wouldn't know logic if I hit you in the face with it which I have tried to do so in the past.

1)Andraste was a powerfull mage but not really extremely, and all her  powers were be because of demon possession or High Dragon blood, maybe both

1-There is no evidence whatsoever of Andraste being either possessed or a Reaver.
2-If she was, that would not have stopped her from using that power to become Archon.
3-If the feats attributed to the Maker were simply Andraste's magic, then she was capable of controlling the weather of a nation which would make her the most powerful mage that ever lived.

2)Andraste was never be a part of Tevinter Empire, she was born as slave in the poor barbaric village on the borders of long time ago abanored Empire territories

She was a runway slave from the Tevinter Imperium. Get your facts right.

They DO have their facts right, generally speaking.  She was not born into the Imperium, but in a fishing village whose inhabitants were later enslaved.   http://dragonage.wik...de_of_the_Maker

Modifié par Silfren, 21 avril 2013 - 02:37 .

[Senya]

Personally, I'd think it'd be hilarious if Andraste really was everything the Chantry said she was, just to read the forums' reactions.

[Vit246]

Personally, I'd think it'd be even more hilarious if Andraste turned out to be a mage.

Modifié par Vit246, 21 avril 2013 - 06:01 .

[The Hierophant]

It would be 2x hilarious if Andraste was a man.

[Bleachrude]

MisterJB wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

And don't you think that Andraste might just have, at one occasion or the other, used magic in a less impressing fashion were she a mage? Something like Cone of Cold couldn't be explained as "The Maker did it" and yet we have heard no mention of any of this. Only of miraculous feats that could be due to natural ocurrences
The elves, for instance, would have no problem saying "Andraste was a mage" but the Dalish make no such claim.
The only people who claim Andraste was a mage are the magisters who have a vetted interest in justifying their continued dominance.

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

I dont think Andraste was a mage given that the Tevinters don't play this aspect up at ALL. There are books and forbidden theories that Andraste was a mage and while I can see the White Divine trying to suppress this...it doesn't make sense for the BLACK divine to do so.

The Black divine and the rest of the magisters have never once stated that they believe Andraste was a mage....


There doesn't seem to be a widespread belief among Tevinters on this and tevinters would have no problem shouting this to the mountains...indeed, if anything, it would strengthen their position about only mages being fit to lead.


As to the actual evidence, I don't think we're supposed to automatically assume it's true...Again, people tend to assume that ANYTHING that the Chantry says is a lie but that isn't a balanced view at all...

Then again, prior to Corpyheus, many people on BSN believed that the Chantry made up the idea that the Tevinters somehow entered the Black/Golden city....now the only question is whether or not the city was ALREADY black or did the actual act of entering it cause it to turn from gold to black....

[In Exile]

Why do we assume that the stories about Andraste splitting the sky open are actually real? It makes as much sense that they're ex-post BS propaganda.

[BlueMagitek]

If something backs up your pet theory, it obviously happened.

Otherwise it is a Chantry lie.

[Asdrubael Vect]

MisterJB wrote...

1-There is no evidence whatsoever of Andraste being either possessed or a Reaver.
2-If she was, that would not have stopped her from using that power to become Archon.
3-If the feats attributed to the Maker were simply Andraste's magic, then she was capable of controlling the weather of a nation which would make her the most powerful mage that ever lived.

Which doesn't matter considering she was the most powerful mage that ever lived if she was a mage at all.

1-There is no evidence of Andraste being a mage, let alone a blood mage.
2-Sure it would.

1)so how you can explain this Maker thing, knowing magic and blood magic from nowrere(perhaps she could learn something magic spells from Tevinter) Archont who personaly cut her head with sword while she was burned on fire
2)Magisters and Archont esily stop her with their powers and knowledge
3)ha ha...no, it will not and it's really not such a powerful magic, this is just some elemental spells and blood magic to control the chief of clans
4)no she wasn't and you cant become Magisters, High Magisters especially Archont with just some magical powers...it does not work that way

5)we have a lot of evidence for that, as Tevinters and many reaserchers who claimed that she was
6)but it already not work

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 05:29 .

[Bleachrude]

Where is the belief that the average Tevinter actually thinks Andraste was a mage?

I don't remember reading that anywhere (might have missed it somewhere)...

The funny thing about the hate fro the Chantry is that it _IS_ the middle position. On one hand, we have the Tevinters and on the other hand we have the Qun.

I'll take the Chantry over either one of these even if I was a mage...(theres no guarantee I'd be a powerful mage to become a magister - Jowan for example would probably have been a slave outright)

re: Consequences
What exactly are the laws regarding mages doing illegal things?

I mean, we know that Tranquility can't be used on a Harrowed mage and that blood mages are NOT automatically killed (even Meredith until she went insane in Ch 3 didn't have Grace killed - it seems like its a case by case basis and just how much trouble said blood mages are).

The reason why I ask is because I'm reminded of Daveth...Daveth was a thief (not a murderer, not a rapist...just a regular non-noble thief). His punishment was the noose and nobody thinks of this as unusual....

But I'm wondering if a mage does something illegal like stealing (and not by blood magic), does the chantry just lock them up like Anders and then put them back into general population?

[Vit246]

BlueMagitek wrote...

If something backs up your pet theory, it obviously happened.

Otherwise it is a Chantry lie.

And as I said. Who knows what really happened. Maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Which is totally acceptable.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Bleachrude wrote...



The reason why I ask is because I'm reminded of Daveth...Daveth was a thief (not a murderer, not a rapist...just a regular non-noble thief). His punishment was the noose and nobody thinks of this as unusual....

But I'm wondering if a mage does something illegal like stealing (and not by blood magic), does the chantry just lock them up like Anders and then put them back into general population?

Daveth grew up in a small unmapped village a few days east of Ostagar, and near the Korcari Wilds.
He fled from his village and his father as soon as he was able and later moved to Denerim, where he spent six years living as a career criminal.

While in Denerim, Daveth tried to cut Duncan's purse, only to be caught red-handed by the Grey Warden. He fled, but the guards caught him before Duncan could.
With the guards seeking to hang him for repeated offenses, Duncan intervened with the Right of Conscription, simultaneously saving Daveth's life and recruiting him to the Grey Wardens.

and Chantry doing only 3 things with mages

1)send them to circle if they think that they are worthy(usual this would make for kids(not for all) and some powerfull mages)
2)Tranquil
3)Kill

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 05:42 .

[Bleachrude]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...



The reason why I ask is because I'm reminded of Daveth...Daveth was a thief (not a murderer, not a rapist...just a regular non-noble thief). His punishment was the noose and nobody thinks of this as unusual....

But I'm wondering if a mage does something illegal like stealing (and not by blood magic), does the chantry just lock them up like Anders and then put them back into general population?

Daveth grew up in a small unmapped village a few days east of Ostagar, and near the Korcari Wilds.
He fled from his village and his father as soon as he was able and later moved to Denerim, where he spent six years living as a career criminal.

While in Denerim, Daveth tried to cut Duncan's purse, only to be caught red-handed by the Grey Warden. He fled, but the guards caught him before Duncan could.
With the guards seeking to hang him for repeated offenses, Duncan intervened with the Right of Conscription, simultaneously saving Daveth's life and recruiting him to the Grey Wardens.

and Chantry doing only 3 things with mages

1)send them to circle if they thing that they are worthy(usual this would make for kids and some powerfull mages)
2)Tranquil
3)kill

Tranquil is out if the mage is Harrowed and kill seems to be up to the KC (and I imagine how hard it is to take down said mage) since Grace, a blood mage, is alive and well even after she gets taken to the Gallows. Although I thought being a blood mage she would've automatically been taken to Aeonar.

So my question stands...for non blood mages, what is their punishment for breaking laws? Keep in mind that even in Orlais, stronghold of the chantry, mages are able to live outside of the circle and have families (while jo random mage doesn't seem able to have a family, there have been more than 1 example of circle mages starting and staying with their families).

So you would still have the regular laws to deal with....

[Asdrubael Vect]

Bleachrude wrote...


Tranquil is out if the mage is Harrowed and kill seems to be up to the KC (and I imagine how hard it is to take down said mage) since Grace, a blood mage, is alive and well even after she gets taken to the Gallows. Although I thought being a blood mage she would've automatically been taken to Aeonar.

So my question stands...for non blood mages, what is their punishment for breaking laws? Keep in mind that even in Orlais, stronghold of the chantry, mages are able to live outside of the circle and have families (while jo random mage doesn't seem able to have a family, there have been more than 1 example of circle mages starting and staying with their families).

So you would still have the regular laws to deal with....

Traquil is not a easy and cheep ritual, so if Circle decide to not use this ritual for punishment so that means that you are
1)very valuable for Circle and First Enchanter, even if you have/not have Harrowed
2)not valuable and you will simply send to prison and have a chance to be Tranquil or killed or immediately killed

depends upon what kind of laws mage were break? and depends of his being in circle or he/she was apostage?

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 06:02 .

[Vit246]

Bleachrude wrote...
I dont think Andraste was a mage given that the Tevinters don't play this aspect up at ALL. There are books and forbidden theories that Andraste was a mage and while I can see the White Divine trying to suppress this...it doesn't make sense for the BLACK divine to do so.

The Black divine and the rest of the magisters have never once stated that they believe Andraste was a mage....


There doesn't seem to be a widespread belief among Tevinters on this and tevinters would have no problem shouting this to the mountains...indeed, if anything, it would strengthen their position about only mages being fit to lead.

Well, the Tevinter Imperial Chantry does teach that Andraste was a mortal with considerable magical talent.

Modifié par Vit246, 21 avril 2013 - 06:14 .

[Vit246]

In Exile wrote...

Why do we assume that the stories about Andraste splitting the sky open are actually real? It makes as much sense that they're ex-post BS propaganda.

That too is valid.

[Silfren]

Bleachrude wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Lemme ask ya somethin. Whoever was writing the holy codexes and books and literature. Do you REALLY think it would be in their interests to write down Andraste as a mage, the same type of people Andraste was waging war against? That the Maker favored their cause against the evil mages but Andraste also happened to be a mage? That they would write down she casted spells? Which one sounds better?: The Maker did it OR Andraste casted spells.

And don't you think that Andraste might just have, at one occasion or the other, used magic in a less impressing fashion were she a mage? Something like Cone of Cold couldn't be explained as "The Maker did it" and yet we have heard no mention of any of this. Only of miraculous feats that could be due to natural ocurrences
The elves, for instance, would have no problem saying "Andraste was a mage" but the Dalish make no such claim.
The only people who claim Andraste was a mage are the magisters who have a vetted interest in justifying their continued dominance.

And if Andraste was a mage, she had to have been ridiculously powerful; powerful enough to become an Archon. If so, why would she fight against the Imperium?

I dont think Andraste was a mage given that the Tevinters don't play this aspect up at ALL. There are books and forbidden theories that Andraste was a mage and while I can see the White Divine trying to suppress this...it doesn't make sense for the BLACK divine to do so.

The Black divine and the rest of the magisters have never once stated that they believe Andraste was a mage....


There doesn't seem to be a widespread belief among Tevinters on this and tevinters would have no problem shouting this to the mountains...indeed, if anything, it would strengthen their position about only mages being fit to lead.


As to the actual evidence, I don't think we're supposed to automatically assume it's true...Again, people tend to assume that ANYTHING that the Chantry says is a lie but that isn't a balanced view at all...

Then again, prior to Corpyheus, many people on BSN believed that the Chantry made up the idea that the Tevinters somehow entered the Black/Golden city....now the only question is whether or not the city was ALREADY black or did the actual act of entering it cause it to turn from gold to black....

How many Tevinters have you met?

It does actually seem to be the case that the official teaching of the Imperial Chantry is that Andraste was not divine but was an exceptionally talented mage, so where are you getting that this isn't a widespread belief in Tevinter?

I note that the book we have promoting the theory (which is not the only bit of evidence we point to, I'll quickly add) was saved from a fire.  Institutions like the Chantry don't burn books unless they are threatened by them.  If the idea that Andraste was a mage is totally inconceivable, and not worth giving any thought to, then why would there be a need to burn the book and suppress the very idea?

For that matter, why would anyone feel the need to build a statue of Andraste that is positioned so perfectly as to show her wielding flame, an image that in the DA universe, universally says "Mage," if she was just an ordinary woman.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

this is her statue in her Tomb





this is her images by Orlais Chantry...and i still very confused by the fact that her head and ears are always hidden



and this is Tevinters mages

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 07:41 .

[The Hierophant]

I'm surprised that the Guardian of the Gauntlet or any of the specters didn't make a statement that ambiguously hinted at Andraste being a mage.
Also wasn't there a statue of Hawke at the docks in act 3 that wielded a sword that has a flame for it's blade, despite Hawke potentially not being a mage?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 21 avril 2013 - 08:07 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Some people ARE that selfless, actually.  I get that you've got a very negative viewpoint toward humanity in general, but quite beyond that, you insist on this black and white, all or nothing perspective which has no basis in logic or reality. 

On the contrary, I have suggested that were Andraste a mage who wished to create equality between mundanes and mages, she would be in a better position to do so from within the Imperium. Leading a bunch of clans against it is an innefective way of going at it.
Unless she was not a mage at all.

Silfren wrote...
They DO have their facts right, generally
speaking.  She was not born into the Imperium, but in a fishing village
whose inhabitants were later enslaved.

He said Andraste had never been to the Imperium which is blantantly untrue.

In Exile wrote...

Why do we assume that the stories about
Andraste splitting the sky open are actually real? It makes as much
sense that they're ex-post BS propaganda.

If we assume that the spirits in the Gauntlet really are the spirits of the deceased, then we have a first hand account.
Altough,I believe Andraste was just intelligent enough to pick the exact right time to invade Tevinter once it was weakened by natural accidents such as a drougth.

Bleachrude wrote...
if anything, it would strengthen their position about only mages being fit to lead.

That's my main issue with Andraste being a mage. Sure, the idea of a mage fighting to free non-mages is heartwarming but the mages are already given enough spotlight in the games. Having Andraste be a mage transmits the idea of the poor, defenseless non-mages who need benevolent mages to solve their problems.
No, thank you very much.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 10:15 .

[MisterJB]

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)so how you can explain this Maker thing, knowing magic and blood magic from nowrere(perhaps she could learn something magic spells from Tevinter) Archont who personaly cut her head with sword while she was burned on fire

Natural ocurrences. Tevinter suffered a drought which killed their crops which impended their soldiers from fighting
and then suffered a flood. Andraste was just intelligent enough to take advantage of this.

2)Magisters and Archont esily stop her with their powers and knowledge

Comparing a subtle social climb from within with being surrounded by an army of your declared enemies because you were betrayed is like comparing apples and cars.

3)ha ha...no, it will not and it's really not such a powerful magic, this is just some elemental spells and blood magic to control the chief of clans

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

4)no she wasn't and you cant become Magisters, High Magisters especially Archont with just some magical powers...it does not work that way

Of course it does. Tevinter is a barbaric, dog eat dog institution whose entire system of governance is centered around who can throw the biggest fireball. We have the story of a mage who lit candles who almost became Archon because he assassinated the entirety of the imperial senate.
Had Andraste been a mage, she could have easily become Archon.

5)we have a lot of evidence for that, as Tevinters and many reaserchers who claimed that she was

We have speculation from the very mages who wish to justify their barbarism. There is no research involved, that we know of, at all.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 10:14 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
For that matter, why would anyone feel the need to build a statue of Andraste that is positioned so perfectly as to show her wielding flame, an image that in the DA universe, universally says "Mage," if she was just an ordinary woman.

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 10:19 .

[DKJaigen]

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

Who says its one mage? most likely the barbarians had shamans that wield magic that would be considered forbidden magic (including blood magic) in the present time. I also have hard time imagining a bunch of ragtag barbarians having the ability to create supply lines to get their armies through a land that was starving. most likely the droughts where targeted strikes by the Fereldan shamans.

Of course it does. Tevinter is a barbaric, dog eat dog institution whose entire system of governance is centered around who can throw the biggest fireball. We have the story of a mage who lit candles who almost became Archon because he assassinated the entirety of the imperial senate.
Had Andraste been a mage, she could have easily become Archon.

Not even the Sith empire works that way. Most likely the candle lighter came from a noble house and could get away with it because he had sufficient political backing . A former slave becoming an Archon? plz mate keep things realistic.

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

I doubt people back then would care that Andraste was a mage back then.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nevermind the fact that her carrying a flame, could merely be symbolic of her carrying the hopes of the people.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

Who says its one mage? most likely the barbarians had shamans that wield magic that would be considered forbidden magic (including blood magic) in the present time. I also have hard time imagining a bunch of ragtag barbarians having the ability to create supply lines to get their armies through a land that was starving. most likely the droughts where targeted strikes by the Fereldan shamans.

And if it was a result of magic, and even magic from a group of shamans, then why didnt Tevinter, the greatest most powerful collection of mages anywhere on Thedas, not simply coutneract it? It simply doesn't add up, if it was a result of magic.

DKJaigen wrote...

Of course it does. Tevinter is a barbaric, dog eat dog institution whose entire system of governance is centered around who can throw the biggest fireball. We have the story of a mage who lit candles who almost became Archon because he assassinated the entirety of the imperial senate.
Had Andraste been a mage, she could have easily become Archon.

Not even the Sith empire works that way. Most likely the candle lighter came from a noble house and could get away with it because he had sufficient political backing . A former slave becoming an Archon? plz mate keep things realistic.

That's exactly the way the Sith Empire works. The Sith respects one thing, and one thing only, power. Be that martial, or political, it matters not. The most powerful will always end up being the ruler of the Sith. Same with Tevinter, since we already have examples of slaves becoming Magisters, there is nothing that indicates such a person couldn't eventually become Archon.

DKJaigen wrote...

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

I doubt people back then would care that Andraste was a mage back then.

Of course people would care. They were fighting a war against a mage Empire. If their illustrious leader turned out to be a mage also, you can be damn sure there would have been some talk about that.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

Who says its one mage? most likely the barbarians had shamans that wield magic that would be considered forbidden magic (including blood magic) in the present time. I also have hard time imagining a bunch of ragtag barbarians having the ability to create supply lines to get their armies through a land that was starving. most likely the droughts where targeted strikes by the Fereldan shamans.

And if it was a result of magic, and even magic from a group of shamans, then why didnt Tevinter, the greatest most powerful collection of mages anywhere on Thedas, not simply coutneract it? It simply doesn't add up, if it was a result of magic.

DKJaigen wrote...

Of course it does. Tevinter is a barbaric, dog eat dog institution whose entire system of governance is centered around who can throw the biggest fireball. We have the story of a mage who lit candles who almost became Archon because he assassinated the entirety of the imperial senate.
Had Andraste been a mage, she could have easily become Archon.

Not even the Sith empire works that way. Most likely the candle lighter came from a noble house and could get away with it because he had sufficient political backing . A former slave becoming an Archon? plz mate keep things realistic.

That's exactly the way the Sith Empire works. The Sith respects one thing, and one thing only, power. Be that martial, or political, it matters not. The most powerful will always end up being the ruler of the Sith. Same with Tevinter, since we already have examples of slaves becoming Magisters, there is nothing that indicates such a person couldn't eventually become Archon.

DKJaigen wrote...

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

I doubt people back then would care that Andraste was a mage back then.

Of course people would care. They were fighting a war against a mage Empire. If their illustrious leader turned out to be a mage also, you can be damn sure there would have been some talk about that.

Destroying things with magic is easier then creating things with magic.  And of course the barbarians had  shamans at their side. Mages can mulitiply the power of an army tenfold against conventional troops .

Pulling facts out of your ass again? try playing swtor you see that their is a lot more about sith then brute strenght.

And i doubt that the barbarians cared about magic if they lived along side it. The barbarians never invaded the tevinter imperium because they wielded magic but because the the tevinter imperium where a bunch of aholes that tried to conquer fereldan in the past.