656 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

I believe that in DA:O it was established that for mages that did not follow rules but were harrowed, was that they went to a Circle prison called Aeonar.

[K_Tabris]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Are you people reading my post? I said there should be at least three outcomes to cover peoples views on the war. I never said there would be any, Thedas could even be destroyed before the conflict is resolved.

Did you play Jade Empire?  This game had a good forumal for multiple game endings based on player's final choice. 

[LobselVith8]

Youth4Ever wrote...

And you don't the mages will set up Little Tevinter now that they're free? Now that they have no Templar oversight? They've already shown and taken the first steps IMO. They need to take several seats. I support Circle reform but Templars are necessary. There must be watchers and wardens to protect the people and to protect the mages from themselves. And the mages started the war. The Empire is striking back.

Societies with free mages haven't emulated Tevinter, so I don't see why you think free mages automatically mean another Tevinter.

I think having an anti-mage religious organization have absolute control over mages is morally repugnant, and the downtrodden will always resist this kind of subjugation. Mages can't raise their families, could be forbidden from having any relationships, can be made tranquil without contesting the charges against them, and are at the mercy of the templars who have "dominion over mages by divine right".

I'll never understand why anyone would support a morally bankrupt organization like the Chantry having any level of authority over mages.

[Silfren]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
Some people ARE that selfless, actually.  I get that you've got a very negative viewpoint toward humanity in general, but quite beyond that, you insist on this black and white, all or nothing perspective which has no basis in logic or reality. 
[/quote]
On the contrary, I have suggested that were Andraste a mage who wished to create equality between mundanes and mages, she would be in a better position to do so from within the Imperium. Leading a bunch of clans against it is an innefective way of going at it.
Unless she was not a mage at all.[/quote]

You've presented YOUR OPINION on what would have been more effective, but since none of us know the actual, concrete events that were happening, nor do we know Andraste's personality, it's spectacularly stupid to assume that because she didn't do things in one particular way, that that alone rules out the possibility of her being a mage.

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
[quote]Silfren wrote...
They DO have their facts right, generally
speaking.  She was not born into the Imperium, but in a fishing village
whose inhabitants were later enslaved.
[/quote]
He said Andraste had never been to the Imperium which is blantantly untrue.[/quote]

Having followed yours and their posts, I think that was actually an issue of the language barrier, personally.  I think they were trying to say that she wasn't native to the Imperium/wasn't part of the Magister class.
[/quote]

Modifié par Silfren, 21 avril 2013 - 04:55 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
For that matter, why would anyone feel the need to build a statue of Andraste that is positioned so perfectly as to show her wielding flame, an image that in the DA universe, universally says "Mage," if she was just an ordinary woman.

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

Yeah, sorry, holding a flame in your hand, in a world wherein that specific image ALWAYS means mage...no.  It isn't going to suddenly be intended to mean burning at the stake.

I figure the reasons why the spirits haunting the Gauntlet don't mention it is simply that we're supposed to be given tantalizing hints, not beaten over the head with it.  Talk about it too much and it becomes the elephant in the room.  Bioware's better at telling stories than that.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Yeah, sorry, holding a flame in your hand, in a world wherein that specific image ALWAYS means mage...no.  It isn't going to suddenly be intended to mean burning at the stake.

Fire is present in almost every symbol of the Andrastean faith from the Eternal Fire to the flames around the Templar Sword and the very symbol of the Chantry which is a sun. We are specifically told that the fire is meant to signify the rebirth and purity of Andraste's immolation.
Therefore, simply holding a flame in the palm of her hand is not, necessarely, representative of Andraste being a mage.

I figure the reasons why the spirits haunting the Gauntlet don't mention it is simply that we're supposed to be given tantalizing hints, not beaten over the head with it.  Talk about it too much and it becomes the elephant in the room.  Bioware's better at telling stories than that.

Except they express the very opposite belief. Not only ar there no hints of Andraste being a mage in the Gauntlet but the people who actually met her seem to firmly believe in the Maker.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
You've presented YOUR OPINION on what would have been more effective, but since none of us know the actual, concrete events that were happening, nor do we know Andraste's personality, it's spectacularly stupid to assume that because she didn't do things in one particular way, that that alone rules out the possibility of her being a mage.

Based on what we know, we can reach the conclusion that were Andraste a mage, reforming Tevinter from within would have been far more logical than conquering it with barbarians from the outside.
While there could have been other factors that influenced a mage Andraste to act in this manner, it is more logical to believe that Andraste simply was not a mage but a completely normal woman who was intelligent enough to take advantage of natural disasters that weakened Tevinter and carismatic enough to unite may tribes based on the above.

This is not my opinion but an unbiased (more or less) analysis based on the information we are given.

Modifié par MisterJB, 21 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)so how you can explain this Maker thing, knowing magic and blood magic from nowrere(perhaps she could learn something magic spells from Tevinter) Archont who personaly cut her head with sword while she was burned on fire

Natural ocurrences. Tevinter suffered a drought which killed their crops which impended their soldiers from fighting
and then suffered a flood. Andraste was just intelligent enough to take advantage of this.

I'd accept this as all there was to the story were it not that it's hinted that there was more going on than just a drought.  There's at least one codex that refers to fire and flood, famine and earthquake.  It's hinted not that these things happened, and then Andraste shrewdly took advantage, but that these things happened while she was campaigning.  I could buy that famine could plague the Imperium unrelated to Andraste's war, but when there's another codex that explicitly mentions that Andraste was known to perform miracles, I don't buy that fire and flood AND earthquakes are all happening simultaneously during Andraste's rebellion, and there's no connection. 

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

Who says its one mage? most likely the barbarians had shamans that wield magic that would be considered forbidden magic (including blood magic) in the present time. I also have hard time imagining a bunch of ragtag barbarians having the ability to create supply lines to get their armies through a land that was starving. most likely the droughts where targeted strikes by the Fereldan shamans.

And if it was a result of magic, and even magic from a group of shamans, then why didnt Tevinter, the greatest most powerful collection of mages anywhere on Thedas, not simply coutneract it? It simply doesn't add up, if it was a result of magic.

.....So the Tevinter could have and would have countered magical assaults, but they somehow could not have countered non-magical assault?  Seriously?  There HAD to have been magic in Andraste's ranks, at the bare minimum, even if she herself was not a mage.  

[Angrywolves]

Maybe you should factor in a Qunari invasion in as well. Multiple endings depending on a players decisions in a game can be tricky to get right. Not sure I trust Bioware to get it right.

[BlueMagitek]

Or, Andraste had massed Legionnaire Scouts; completely immune to magic. ~_^

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Societies with free mages haven't emulated Tevinter, so I don't see why you think free mages automatically mean another Tevinter.

I think having an anti-mage religious organization have absolute control over mages is morally repugnant, and the downtrodden will always resist this kind of subjugation. Mages can't raise their families, could be forbidden from having any relationships, can be made tranquil without contesting the charges against them, and are at the mercy of the templars who have "dominion over mages by divine right".

I'll never understand why anyone would support a morally bankrupt organization like the Chantry having any level of authority over mages.

Because, my friend, noone does support that chantry. Ultimately it's not the morality of it that we disagree on (allright... a little bit), but what "reality" looks like. This is the source of all our arguments. In the eyes of the pro-chantry side; the mages are more dangerous, what they're capable of less acceptable, the atrocities they're subject to less prevalent, less tolerated and/or common occurences outside of the circles, their freedoms, rights and wealth greater and some other minor things.
Noone denies that mages have it bad. How bad that is, there we disagree. The chantry's/templar's divine right rethoric is dangerous yes, but to what degree does it actually translate to action/policy? How common are the exceptions to the restrictions they face?

All in all a Chantry that is more neccessary, less horrible in their treatment of mages (but still on the bad side, make no mistake) and a belief that throwing the chantry off is probably not going to make anything better.

Ultimately, therein lie the root of all these discussions. We percieve Thedas differently based on the biases we've acquired thus far. And that's what we really argue about.

Modifié par Sir JK, 21 avril 2013 - 05:43 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You've presented YOUR OPINION on what would have been more effective, but since none of us know the actual, concrete events that were happening, nor do we know Andraste's personality, it's spectacularly stupid to assume that because she didn't do things in one particular way, that that alone rules out the possibility of her being a mage.

Based on what we know, we can reach the conclusion that were Andraste a mage, reforming Tevinter from within would have been far more logical than conquering it with barbarians from the outside.
While there could have been other factors that influenced a mage Andraste to act in this manner, it is more logical to believe that Andraste simply was not a mage but a completely normal woman who was intelligent enough to take advantage of natural disasters that weakened Tevinter and carismatic enough to unite may tribes based on the above.

This is not my opinion but an unbiased (more or less) analysis based on the information we are given.

You're kidding yourself.  You've made your stance on the idea of Andraste being a mage abundantly clear.  There's nothing about your insistence that is even remotely unbiased.

That said, I reject the idea that because YOU think that there is one way that is more logical than another,, that it means that not choosing the logical path can ONLY mean that Andraste wasn't a mage.  Quite aside from that, you can't say that your way would have been more logical, because that assumes that you know more about the situation than Andraste herself did.  It isn't as though she was in Tevinter, decided she wanted to change the society, and illogically decided that escaping and coming back to conquer it was more efficient or logical than working her way up through the ranks.  She escaped from slavery and only came back to conquer Tevinter later, after she had met and married the warlord Maferath and become the Maker's disciple.

It is, believe it or not, entirely possible that Andraste didn't decide to change the Imperium from within because she was simply more of a mind to overthrow it.  Most people are not governed by cold logic--even those who do apply logic will find it impossible to completely excise their emotional wants or needs, but I digress.  Your theory ONLY works if you assume that Andraste was a robot who sat around trying to determine the most logical means of creating change.  I find it much more likely that Andraste simply hated the Tevinter Imperium with a burning passion, and made it her goal to destroy the empire.  It's also entirely possible that her magical abilities didn't manifest until later in her life.  We know that magic usually shows up around the age of five, or possibly as late as ten or twelve, but I think it's within the realm of possibility that sometimes it doesn't show up until later. 

Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.

[The Elder King]

There's a theory about Andraste being an OGB? Meaning that the Imperium sent to stake the reincarnation of their most important god (Dumat)?
.........I like it.

[TK514]

hhh89 wrote...

There's a theory about Andraste being an OGB? Meaning that the Imperium sent to stake the reincarnation of their most important god (Dumat)?
.........I like it.

That would be awesome.  And hilarious.

[The Elder King]

TK514 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

There's a theory about Andraste being an OGB? Meaning that the Imperium sent to stake the reincarnation of their most important god (Dumat)?
.........I like it.

That would be awesome.  And hilarious.

I think that if the Maker exists the situation is too much non-sense (The Maker would choose as his bride Dumat's reincarnation?) but it's a funny theory.

Modifié par hhh89, 21 avril 2013 - 06:09 .

[Silfren]

hhh89 wrote...

There's a theory about Andraste being an OGB? Meaning that the Imperium sent to stake the reincarnation of their most important god (Dumat)?
.........I like it.

Oh, yes.  Talk to The Ethereal Writer Redux if you want the details.  I don't personally buy the theory myself, and I'm not sure I'd want Andraste to be an OGB, but I do have to admit the evidence presented is compelling.

[Bleachrude]

Silfren wrote...

Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.

Er...doesn't Andraste herself talk about the Maker...Why wouldn't those miracles simply be him responding to Andraste's pleas.

[Silfren]

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.

Er...doesn't Andraste herself talk about the Maker...Why wouldn't those miracles simply be him responding to Andraste's pleas.

They could very well be, I haven't claimed otherwise.

I don't discuss it because the only time the subject ever comes up is in the context of whether Andraste was a mage causing those alleged miracles, and that happens to be the theory that I prefer, and I've never seen anyone proffer it as an alternative theory: it's always been between whether Andraste was a mage or whether she was an ordinary woman taking advantage of Tevinter at a time when it was being plagued by a series of unrelated disasters.  To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a discussion entertaining the theory that the Maker was real and actually was assisting the rebellion in a concrete, tangible way by literally cursing Tevinter with fire and flood, famine, and earthquake.  I certainly don't think it's impossible that those miracles could have been the hand of the Maker.  I do happen to think that between the two possibilities, I find the one of Andraste being a mage much more likely. 

I will point out that we don't know what Andraste said or didn't say.  We know only what has been claimed about what she said.

Modifié par Silfren, 21 avril 2013 - 07:38 .

[Bleachrude]

I actually have a problem with Andraste being a mage that did all of that...

It implies she was a mage of outstanding power and as someone said, it would be tactically EASIER to make herself Archon than to fight her way across the whole of Tevinter. At the time, if she was THAT strong, she would've easily been Archon.

That is, she caused a LOT of needless death...It also doesn't explain her human husband since if he grew jealous of her power/fame, he would've been a monumental idiot in the 1st place to marry a mage with that much power.

I always got the impression her husband grew more jealous as her fame became more widespread but that makes no sense if she was already a powerful mage.


(that said, would a OGB actually be classifed as a mage? Templares use magic but aren't considred mages)

[Asdrubael Vect]

there is many versions of Chant of light and story about Andraste in Thedas, orlais-emperror Dracon version is just one of them besides it was edited from time to time for past 900 years and the whole Orlais Chantry exist only as propaganda of anti-Tevinter and anti-mages nobles and for exancion Orlais influense to other country's

but i did know exactly what Andraste was a mage and her "Maker" is never be a god and creator of Fade and Thedas

i have some theory what at least was a very close to truth

Andraste was mage who born after First Blight, and was ex-slave of Tevinter and have a very hard and poor life.

After years of despair and asking help from Old Gods, she later in her dreams were possesed(or found a High dragon blood and began hearing some of Old God voices) by somekind of desire demon(or maybe by a soul of one of Ancient Tevinter Magisters who can escape after Tevinters Grey Wardens) what Andraste claimed as "Maker" and who teach her magic what very helped her to being a single wife and fully mind controll Mafearat-chief of big barbarian clan and his army's.

..after she was easily annexed or conqured other barbarian clans and most of all south of ex-Tevinters abandored territories

and after she formed her own Barbarian empire from Tevinter territories, she was try to conquer weakened by that moment Tevinter. to fully rule all Thedas by herself with "Maker will",,,She made some deals with Shartan(and brought him close to itself and give him much influence) and promised to give elves the southern territory of Thedas-Dales

but Maferat after some time can resist to Andraste blood magic mindcontroll and and soon gave her to Magisters...who was quiqly desides to execute her because she was dangerous and unstable mage....and when she was burn on fire, she was trying to summons deamons/or make some other danger rituals/spells and Archont himself, was needed to personally cut her head with his sword

and as i can understand Andraste using a lot of Lyrium and i am sure that she's perfercly know about a Frostback mountain(and in which the dragons lived) was full of lyrium what which later became her Tomb

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 08:22 .

[Silfren]

Bleachrude wrote...

I actually have a problem with Andraste being a mage that did all of that...

It implies she was a mage of outstanding power and as someone said, it would be tactically EASIER to make herself Archon than to fight her way across the whole of Tevinter. At the time, if she was THAT strong, she would've easily been Archon

Again, this assumes that a) we know more about the situation than Andraste herself did, and assumes that people generally only ever do the purely logical thing, and c) assumes several things about Andraste's personaliy and mindset in particular. 

The lore we have indicates that she was a slave first, but later escaped and later married a warlord and waged war on the Imperium.  That could very well mean that Andraste simply wanted to overthrow the Imperium.  Fixating on the idea that she ONLY wanted to achieve equality, and therefore insisting that she MUST have considered all possible avenues to this, rules out entirely the possibility that she just flat out hated the Imperium and wanted to destroy it.

That is, she caused a LOT of needless death...It also doesn't explain her human husband since if he grew jealous of her power/fame, he would've been a monumental idiot in the 1st place to marry a mage with that much power.

....She caused a lot of needless death, period.  Needless death is kind of the nature of war.  

Maferath doesn't have to have been an idiot to marry a mage with unusual power.  We don't know the circumstances of their marriage.  You can marry someone and regret it later for any number of reasons, you know.  Or are you still doing the really stupid thing of trying to apply computer logic to human choices?

I always got the impression her husband grew more jealous as her fame became more widespread but that makes no sense if she was already a powerful mage.

...No, it doesn't.  If Andraste was a mage, it doesn't necessarily mean she was popular when she and Maferath met.  It's also worth pointing out that the idea that Maferath grew jealous is a Chantry teaching.  The lore we have indicates that other historians believe Maferath turned Andraste over to the Tevinters because he thought that they were over-extended and it was time to stop expanding, and also that he wanted to rule the lands she conquered.  That doesn't have to be jealousy.  It could as easily be pure and simple politics.  Hell, it could be that Maferath teamed with Andraste in order to use her popularity in the furthering of his own ambitions, and planned all along to sacrifice her once she'd outlived her usefulness.

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

there is many versions of Chant of light and story about Andraste in Thedas, orlais-emperror Dracon version is just one of them besides it was edited from time to time for past 900 years and the whole Orlais Chantry exist only as propaganda of anti-Tevinter and anti-mages nobles and for exancion Orlais influense to other country's

but i did know exactly what Andraste was a mage and her "Maker" is never be a god and creator of Fade and Thedas

i have some theory what at least was a very close to truth

Andraste was mage who born after First Blight, and was ex-slave of Tevinter and have a very hard and poor life.

After years of despair and asking help from Old Gods, she later in her dreams were possesed(or found a High dragon blood and began hearing some of Old God voices) by somekind of desire demon(or maybe by a soul of one of Ancient Tevinter Magisters who can escape after Tevinters Grey Wardens) what Andraste claimed as "Maker" and who teach her magic what very helped her to being a single wife and fully mind controll Mafearat-chief of big barbarian clan and his army's.

..after she was easily annexed or conqured other barbarian clans and most of all south of ex-Tevinters abandored territories

and after she formed her own Barbarian empire from Tevinter territories, she was try to conquer weakened by that moment Tevinter. to fully rule all Thedas by herself with "Maker will",,,She made some deals with Shartan(and brought him close to itself and give him much influence) and promised to give elves the southern territory of Thedas-Dales

but Maferat after some time can resist to Andraste blood magic mindcontroll and and soon gave her to Magisters...who was quiqly desides to execute her because she was dangerous and unstable mage....and when she was burn on fire, she was trying to summons deamons/or make some other danger rituals/spells and Archont himself, was needed to personally cut her head with his sword

and as i can understand Andraste using a lot of Lyrium and i am sure that she's perfercly know about a mountain(and in which the dragons lived) full of lyrium which later became her Tomb

Just to be clear, we do NOT know that Andraste was a mage.  It's a compelling theory with some evidence to back it up, but it is NOT confirmed lore.  

[Asdrubael Vect]

as we do not know about Andraste father, her race, her descendants what Orlais Chantry specially hides

as we do not know about Maker,  maybe this "Maker" is not a Desire Demon(or some of Old God dragon/soul of Tevinter magister) of fade and he's just sick imagination of Andraste which was formed because of her hard life

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 09:51 .

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

as we do not know about Andraste farther, her race, her descendants what Orlais Chantry specially hides

as we do not know about Maker,  maybe this "Maker" is not a Desire Demon(or some of Old God dragon/soul of Tevinter magister) of fade and he's just sick imagination of Andraste which was formed because of her hard life

My point is you can't go saying your theory was close to the truth, because it is NOT true for certain that Andraste was a mage.  I believe she was based on the evidence given, but I'm not about to go pretending it's irrefutable fact. And neither should you.