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[lil yonce]

Silfren wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.

Er...doesn't Andraste herself talk about the Maker...Why wouldn't those miracles simply be him responding to Andraste's pleas.

They could very well be, I haven't claimed otherwise.

I don't discuss it because the only time the subject ever comes up is in the context of whether Andraste was a mage causing those alleged miracles, and that happens to be the theory that I prefer, and I've never seen anyone proffer it as an alternative theory: it's always been between whether Andraste was a mage or whether she was an ordinary woman taking advantage of Tevinter at a time when it was being plagued by a series of unrelated disasters.  To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a discussion entertaining the theory that the Maker was real and actually was assisting the rebellion in a concrete, tangible way by literally cursing Tevinter with fire and flood, famine, and earthquake.  I certainly don't think it's impossible that those miracles could have been the hand of the Maker.  I do happen to think that between the two possibilities, I find the one of Andraste being a mage much more likely. 

I will point out that we don't know what Andraste said or didn't say.  We know only what has been claimed about what she said.

I think Andraste was a powerful mage-- an OGB-- who through her the power of her blood was able to perform the miracles and devastation the Chantry and tales mention. I don't think at all conflicts with "the Maker did it". She was his choosen and the gift of magic she had to use as she did would be from the Maker-- that would be her belief, I think.
Its not the truth as the Chantry currently paints it, some of the knowledge of her life and times may have been lost or intentionally destroyed, but I think Andraste as a mage and Bride of the Maker can absolutely co-exist.

[Asdrubael Vect]

1)Andraste is certainly can not be OGB because she was born a long after First Blight and Dumat were killed only by Ancient Tevinters Grey Wardens without any special ritual for that, so forget about this idea

2)and Andraste's "Maker" is ceartanly not a god and creator of Thedas and Fade and he was never be....no one except Anraste was never see or even heard about him for millenia...not Elves, not Humans, not Dwarves , not Kossinds...and even deamons of fade nothing know about him and heard about him from only from those who believe in the Maker

so "Maker" can only be...

1)desire deamon who represent mage Andraste wishes/dreams and who claimed himself as her "Maker" what she wishes about for a long years

2)one of Old Gods who can communicate with mage Andraste after she's drinking High Dragon blood

3)soul of one of Ancient Corrupted Tevinters Magisters who can escape into Fade after deafiting(like Corinpheus) in Blight by Grey Wardens, and who can communicate into dreams/fade of mage Andraste  for some reasons

3)just her sick immagination and nothing more

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 21 avril 2013 - 10:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

"Some elemental spells" could never hope to achieve the effects attributed to the Maker.
If she was a mage, she was powerful enough to control the weather of an entire nation; to declare a drought and then a flood; which no other mage; not even the Warden; could hope to do.

Who says its one mage? most likely the barbarians had shamans that wield magic that would be considered forbidden magic (including blood magic) in the present time. I also have hard time imagining a bunch of ragtag barbarians having the ability to create supply lines to get their armies through a land that was starving. most likely the droughts where targeted strikes by the Fereldan shamans.

And if it was a result of magic, and even magic from a group of shamans, then why didnt Tevinter, the greatest most powerful collection of mages anywhere on Thedas, not simply coutneract it? It simply doesn't add up, if it was a result of magic.

DKJaigen wrote...

Of course it does. Tevinter is a barbaric, dog eat dog institution whose entire system of governance is centered around who can throw the biggest fireball. We have the story of a mage who lit candles who almost became Archon because he assassinated the entirety of the imperial senate.
Had Andraste been a mage, she could have easily become Archon.

Not even the Sith empire works that way. Most likely the candle lighter came from a noble house and could get away with it because he had sufficient political backing . A former slave becoming an Archon? plz mate keep things realistic.

That's exactly the way the Sith Empire works. The Sith respects one thing, and one thing only, power. Be that martial, or political, it matters not. The most powerful will always end up being the ruler of the Sith. Same with Tevinter, since we already have examples of slaves becoming Magisters, there is nothing that indicates such a person couldn't eventually become Archon.

DKJaigen wrote...

On the other hand, that would be the only hint in the entirety of the Gauntlet. Given the fact that we can actually speak to people who met Andraste when she was alive in that place, you'd think some of them would allure to Andraste being a mage if they purposelly portrayed her as such in their statuary. Instead, all speak of "The Maker".
The fire could simply symbolize her burning at the stake.

I doubt people back then would care that Andraste was a mage back then.

Of course people would care. They were fighting a war against a mage Empire. If their illustrious leader turned out to be a mage also, you can be damn sure there would have been some talk about that.

Destroying things with magic is easier then creating things with magic.  And of course the barbarians had  shamans at their side. Mages can mulitiply the power of an army tenfold against conventional troops .

Pulling facts out of your ass again? try playing swtor you see that their is a lot more about sith then brute strenght.

And i doubt that the barbarians cared about magic if they lived along side it. The barbarians never invaded the tevinter imperium because they wielded magic but because the the tevinter imperium where a bunch of aholes that tried to conquer fereldan in the past.

Again you show little to no reading comprehension....

1. The Magisters wouldnt have to create, they would only have to, oh i don't know, cause a flood when Andraste wanted a draught, and a draught a when Andraste wanted a flood. You know the exact same spells that you claim Andraste and her untrained Shamans would be capable of...

2. As I clearly pointed out in my post, I was not talking about pure brute strength, but POWER. Be that political, psychological, physical, or any other shapoe or form. Bottom line, Sith respect one thing and one thing only, power. If you aren't powerful in some shape or form, you wont become anyhting in the Sith Empire. Sure tehre probably are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions.

3. Of course the Barbarians cared. If they believe the Tevinters, who are all mages, are all ****s, and Andraste would just so happen to be a mage who lived in Tevinter for a while, albiet as a slave, you can bet your arse it would be the source of some resentment.

[LobselVith8]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Societies with free mages haven't emulated Tevinter, so I don't see why you think free mages automatically mean another Tevinter. 

I think having an anti-mage religious organization have absolute control over mages is morally repugnant, and the downtrodden will always resist this kind of subjugation. Mages can't raise their families, could be forbidden from having any relationships, can be made tranquil without contesting the charges against them, and are at the mercy of the templars who have "dominion over mages by divine right".

I'll never understand why anyone would support a morally bankrupt organization like the Chantry having any level of authority over mages. 

Because, my friend, noone does support that chantry. Ultimately it's not the morality of it that we disagree on (allright... a little bit), but what "reality" looks like. This is the source of all our arguments. In the eyes of the pro-chantry side; the mages are more dangerous, what they're capable of less acceptable, the atrocities they're subject to less prevalent, less tolerated and/or common occurences outside of the circles, their freedoms, rights and wealth greater and some other minor things.
Noone denies that mages have it bad. How bad that is, there we disagree. The chantry's/templar's divine right rethoric is dangerous yes, but to what degree does it actually translate to action/policy? How common are the exceptions to the restrictions they face?

All in all a Chantry that is more neccessary, less horrible in their treatment of mages (but still on the bad side, make no mistake) and a belief that throwing the chantry off is probably not going to make anything better.

Ultimately, therein lie the root of all these discussions. We percieve Thedas differently based on the biases we've acquired thus far. And that's what we really argue about.

The perceptions are as varied as they seem to be in Thedas. Hopefully, our new protagonist can help our respective faction.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2013 - 12:10 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
You're kidding yourself.  You've made your stance on the idea of Andraste being a mage abundantly clear.  There's nothing about your insistence that is even remotely unbiased.

That said, I reject the idea that because YOU think that there is one way that is more logical than another,, that it means that not choosing the logical path can ONLY mean that Andraste wasn't a mage.  Quite aside from that, you can't say that your way would have been more logical, because that assumes that you know more about the situation than Andraste herself did.  It isn't as though she was in Tevinter, decided she wanted to change the society, and illogically decided that escaping and coming back to conquer it was more efficient or logical than working her way up through the ranks.  She escaped from slavery and only came back to conquer Tevinter later, after she had met and married the warlord Maferath and become the Maker's disciple.

It is, believe it or not, entirely possible that Andraste didn't decide to change the Imperium from within because she was simply more of a mind to overthrow it.  Most people are not governed by cold logic--even those who do apply logic will find it impossible to completely excise their emotional wants or needs, but I digress.  Your theory ONLY works if you assume that Andraste was a robot who sat around trying to determine the most logical means of creating change.  I find it much more likely that Andraste simply hated the Tevinter Imperium with a burning passion, and made it her goal to destroy the empire.  It's also entirely possible that her magical abilities didn't manifest until later in her life.  We know that magic usually shows up around the age of five, or possibly as late as ten or twelve, but I think it's within the realm of possibility that sometimes it doesn't show up until later.

 
Ok, what you are doing here is ignoring the facts to fit your theory rather than changing your theory according to the facts.
Your theory is this case is that Andraste was a mage but the facts and the logic simply don't back that up. Certainly, people have emotions that can affects their decisions but since we have little to no input on Andraste's personality, what we must use to analyze her actions is logic. Because logic is what we must always use when we are debating, we can't center our arguements around how illogical actions prove our point unless we have something to indicate that Andraste's personality would lead to her making illogical actions.
And right now, logic dictates that Andraste wasn't a mage because she chose to wage war against the Imperium rather than change it from within thus leading to the needless deaths of the very people she wanted to protect if we assume that she wanted to end slaery.
Sure, Andraste's beliefs could have lead to her accting in a manner not consistent with her goal like Anders does but we must first have some indication of such.

You can continue to believe Andraste was a mage; how often are opinions changed on internet debates anyway; but, so far, there is more evidence of her not being a mage than there is of her being.

Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.

In which case she could have just walked north until she met a magister, give him a show and be accepted as an apprentice.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 avril 2013 - 01:42 .

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, Andraste had massed Legionnaire Scouts; completely immune to magic. ~_^

Iimmunity only takes you so far.  It may make you immune to having things done directly to your body, but it ain't gonna stop you from being crushed if, say, a magical bolt knocks a boulder onto your head, etc.

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

1)Andraste is certainly can not be OGB because she was born a long after First Blight and Dumat were killed only by Ancient Tevinters Grey Wardens without any special ritual for that, so forget about this idea

Yeah, um, you know this how?  Hint:  you don't.  It IS quite possible that the Dark Ritual Flemeth gave to Morrigan was performed once in the past.  You don't have any idea whether or not it was done.  Don't go saying "certainly can't have been," as if it's totally impossible when you don't have any more information than the rest of us.

[Silfren]

[quote]MisterJB wrote...
Ok, what you are doing here is ignoring the facts to fit your theory rather than changing your theory according to the facts.
Your theory is this case is that Andraste was a mage but the facts and the logic simply don't back that up. Certainly, people have emotions that can affects their decisions but since we have little to no input on Andraste's personality, what we must use to analyze her actions is logic. Because logic is what we must always use when we are debating, we can't center our arguements around how illogical actions prove our point unless we have something to indicate that Andraste's personality would lead to her making illogical actions.
And right now, logic dictates that Andraste wasn't a mage because she chose to wage war against the Imperium rather than change it from within thus leading to the needless deaths of the very people she wanted to protect if we assume that she wanted to end slaery.
Sure, Andraste's beliefs could have lead to her accting in a manner not consistent with her goal like Anders does but we must first have some indication of such.

You can continue to believe Andraste was a mage; how often are opinions changed on internet debates anyway; but, so far, there is more evidence of her not being a mage than there is of her being.[/quote]

Well, you can go right along believing what you like about my theories and how I come by them, but you're wrong on this point, as usual.  Yes, I like the idea that Andraste was a mage, for the narrative irony it would bring to bear on the story.  That doesn't mean I'm filtering the facts through my perceptions to justify my opinion.  It means that of the available hints we have, I find them compelling enough to accept that she probably was a mage. 

I see that you've got this absolute hard-on for logical analysis, and that's great, but there are times, believe it or not, when logic simply does not apply.  We're talking about people, not computer programs. 

You say that in absence of knowledge of Andraste's personality we have to analyze her actions logically.  Um, no we don't, because doing so still assumes the position that she was a purely logical creature--a golem perhaps, or a Tranquil--and acted ONLY according to this purely logical nature, which is something we have no more information about than the former. 

I prefer to accept that people are in fact people, and thus subject to the usual range of human foibles.  Neither logic nor rationality should be assumed to carry the day when human beings are involved.  My opinions on this front tend to be colored by my understanding of human psychology and sociology, in fact, things which I have some educational and work-related experience in, though not as extensive as I'd prefer. 

Now, with all that out of the way, the fact is, I do think that Andraste probably was a mage, but I haven't ever said that I believe this to be incontrovertible fact.   Secondly, yes, I point to the hints given to us by the game's lore, but more important for me than that is, again, the narrative angle.  I find that much more compelling than anything else, and since Bioware has seen fit to dangle this narrative possibility before us, well.  We're clearly meant to seriously consider the possibility of Andraste as a mage, because it's available to us in more than just a single throwaway codex.  Whether Bioware will do something with this in the future remains to be seen, but personally I think it would be a waste to ignore it.  I actually hope this turns out  to be part of the mage/templar conflict, especially if we have the opportunity to explore Tevinter itself.

[quote]
Then again, it's also entirely possible that the theory that Andraste was an OGB is true and she didn't come into her power until she was a young adult.  I don't actually hold to this theory, though I do think it has some credence, but I gotta say, THAT would certainly explain the miracles Andraste was said to do.
[/quote]
In which case she could have just walked north until she met a magister, give him a show and be accepted as an apprentice.[/quote]

Well, yes, she could have.  She could also probably have rounded up all the magisters and slaughtered them all.  What she COULD do is irrelevant.  Just because a person can do something doesn't mean that they necessarily WILL do it because YOU think it's the most logical thing they could have done.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, Andraste had massed Legionnaire Scouts; completely immune to magic. ~_^

Iimmunity only takes you so far.  It may make you immune to having things done directly to your body, but it ain't gonna stop you from being crushed if, say, a magical bolt knocks a boulder onto your head, etc.

That would assume Magisters are intelligent.  As we have seen, this is very far from the truth.

Just as Lobsy up there about his views on Merrill and Anders representing the Templar.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That would assume Magisters are intelligent.  As we have seen, this is very far from the truth.

Just as Lobsy up there about his views on Merrill and Anders representing the Templar.

You're slandering me because I don't vilify Merrill for trying to help the People with revolutionary technology? I'm starting to recall why I have little respect for pro-templar players like you who think mud slinging is a substitute for an actual argument.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, Andraste had massed Legionnaire Scouts; completely immune to magic. ~_^

Iimmunity only takes you so far.  It may make you immune to having things done directly to your body, but it ain't gonna stop you from being crushed if, say, a magical bolt knocks a boulder onto your head, etc.

That would assume Magisters are intelligent.  As we have seen, this is very far from the truth.

Just as Lobsy up there about his views on Merrill and Anders representing the Templar.

Think you could manage to call Lob's ideas stupid rather than calling his own intelligence into question?  There's no call for the personal attacks.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:25 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I see that you've got this absolute hard-on for logical analysis, and that's great, but there are times, believe it or not, when logic simply does not apply.  We're talking about people, not computer programs. 

You say that in absence of knowledge of Andraste's personality we have to analyze her actions logically.  Um, no we don't, because doing so still assumes the position that she was a purely logical creature--a golem perhaps, or a Tranquil--and acted ONLY according to this purely logical nature, which is something we have no more information about than the former. 

I prefer to accept that people are in fact people, and thus subject to the usual range of human foibles.  Neither logic nor rationality should be assumed to carry the day when human beings are involved.  My opinions on this front tend to be colored by my understanding of human psychology and sociology, in fact, things which I have some educational and work-related experience in, though not as extensive as I'd prefer.

Yes, people are capable of acting in an illogical manner which is something I've readily admitted despite your sugestions that I haven't. But unless we actually have something, even an inkling of evidence that Andraste was known to act in such a manner, the only way we can analyze her actions is trough logic because that is simply the only way we can do so; we predict and analyze the actions of others based on what we know of them, not on what we don't know. And, logical analysis also must take into account the personality of the subject when that is available but it's not available here. So, simply believing in using logic to analyze the actions of others doesn't mean that we believe people are robots or that we discount the power of emotions.

We have a notion of what she wanted to accomplish and the manner she chose to do it. And the question of why she would choose to conduct herself in such a manner if she was a mage is a valid one that needs to be answered so as to not remove credence from the possibility.  
Simply saying that she could have been really angry at the Magisters is
as valid as saying that maybe she made a bet with the Archon that she
could totally throw down the Imperium with a bunch of barbarians. Which is to say, not much since it has no basis behind it.

Therefore, Andraste acts in a manner that makes sense for a non-mage but not for a mage. Which is why I said that you are ignoring the facts which was not meant to suggest that there is no evidence elsewhere. But, in regard to Andraste's own actions, to believe that she is a mage is to believe despite the facts and not because of them.

Now, with all that out of the way, the fact is, I do think that Andraste probably was a mage, but I haven't ever said that I believe this to be incontrovertible fact.   Secondly, yes, I point to the hints given to us by the game's lore, but more important for me than that is, again, the narrative angle.  I find that much more compelling than anything else, and since Bioware has seen fit to dangle this narrative possibility before us, well.  We're clearly meant to seriously consider the possibility of Andraste as a mage, because it's available to us in more than just a single throwaway codex.  Whether Bioware will do something with this in the future remains to be seen, but personally I think it would be a waste to ignore it.  I actually hope this turns out  to be part of the mage/templar conflict, especially if we have the opportunity to explore Tevinter itself.

Just what evidence in-world is there? I remember that it's a belief of the Tevinter Imperium but I believe that is the extent of it.
We don't even know why they believe it other than the most obvious answer. To justify their continud dominance

[Palidane]

I don't think Andraste was a mage, but if she was, she must have been the most badass mage to ever walk the planet. Disciple Cathair was her general, and he said her armies brought drought, famine, earthquakes, and floods down on the Imperium. We haven't seen anybody, mage or demon, pull off anything even near that scope. We have zero precedent for that kind of power, besides maybe direct Divine Intervention.

Modifié par Palidane, 22 avril 2013 - 03:42 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I see that you've got this absolute hard-on for logical analysis, and that's great, but there are times, believe it or not, when logic simply does not apply.  We're talking about people, not computer programs. 

You say that in absence of knowledge of Andraste's personality we have to analyze her actions logically.  Um, no we don't, because doing so still assumes the position that she was a purely logical creature--a golem perhaps, or a Tranquil--and acted ONLY according to this purely logical nature, which is something we have no more information about than the former. 

I prefer to accept that people are in fact people, and thus subject to the usual range of human foibles.  Neither logic nor rationality should be assumed to carry the day when human beings are involved.  My opinions on this front tend to be colored by my understanding of human psychology and sociology, in fact, things which I have some educational and work-related experience in, though not as extensive as I'd prefer.

Yes, people are capable of acting in an illogical manner which is something I've readily admitted despite your sugestions that I haven't. But unless we actually have something, even an inkling of evidence that Andraste was known to act in such a manner, the only way we can analyze her actions is trough logic because that is simply the only way we can do so; we predict and analyze the actions of others based on what we know of them, not on what we don't know. And, logical analysis also must take into account the personality of the subject when that is available but it's not available here. So, simply believing in using logic to analyze the actions of others doesn't mean that we believe people are robots or that we discount the power of emotions.

We have a notion of what she wanted to accomplish and the manner she chose to do it. And the question of why she would choose to conduct herself in such a manner if she was a mage is a valid one that needs to be answered so as to not remove credence from the possibility.   Simply saying that she could have been really angry at the Magisters is
as valid as saying that maybe she made a bet with the Archon that she could totally throw down the Imperium with a bunch of barbarians. Which is to say, not much since it has no basis behind it.

I can agree with the underlined portion.  However, again, I reject the idea that because it would allegedly have been more logical to change Tevinter from within, this conclusively rules out the idea that she was a mage.  You are, once again, forgetting the timeline: she escaped from them and only AFTER her escape did she become the wife of a warlord and decide to wage war on the Imperium.  It is, despite what you think, not unlikely that she could simply have decided to raze Tevinter to the ground out of hate for it.  There is zero reason to be so convinced that if she'd been a mage, she WOULD have considered that it would be easier to work change from within.  You're taking something that she could have done and twisting it around by saying because she could have done it, she absolutely would have.  This is where I draw the line and where YOU are being completely irrational and illogical in your understanding of human behavior.  That a person could have done something doesn't mean they would have done it--it doesn't even mean that they would have considered it as an option.

This is my primary contention with your so-called logic.  You insist that because something was available as an option, then if she had been a mage, it is the option she definitely, absolutely, would have chosen, simply because that is what makes logical sense to you.

Among other things, you've completely overlooked the fact that we're told she had visions of the Maker, and was carrying his directives.  Is it completely lost on you that she could have been following divine orders, imagined or not, to conquer Tevinter rather than peacefully change it?  That alone could account for why she chose the bloody path over the peaceful one--and yes, she could still have been a mage, as the question of her mage status isn't necessarily related to the visions she was receiving.

Therefore, Andraste acts in a manner that makes sense for a non-mage but not for a mage. Which is why I said that you are ignoring the facts which was not meant to suggest that there is no evidence elsewhere. But, in regard to Andraste's own actions, to believe that she is a mage is to believe despite the facts and not because of them.

Yeah, no.  You and I have access to the same "facts," but I keep in mind that the information we are given may or may not be factual. 

Just what evidence in-world is there? I remember that it's a belief of the Tevinter Imperium but I believe that is the extent of it.
We don't even know why they believe it other than the most obvious answer. To justify their continud dominance

Aside from it being a teaching in Tevinter, there's the book that Wynne can be given, which touches on this theory.  there's also at least two codices, possibly a third: one refers to fire and flood, famine and earthquake being the sword of the Maker as Andraste waged her campaign, and another that refers to Andraste performing miracles.  I believe, but may be mistaken, there's one that specifically mentions people thinking that Andraste's campaign was blessed because of all the natural disasters that conveniently wreaked havoc on the Imperium (the implied corollary being that Andraste's own armies were not ill-affected?)

I can totally see Andraste's feats of magic being whitewashed over the centuries into "she performed miracles."  But even so, in light of the fact that magic is a part of the reality of Thedas, and she was said to be peforming miracles, I find it a wee bit too convenient that Tevinter would be slammed by fires and flooding and famine and earthquakes all at once, and magic not playing a role in this, especially since these disasters were happening at the time of Andraste's rebellion, and apparently didn't affect her armies, despite the fact that natural disasters tend not to discriminate.  But I take this into consideration WITH the fact of Tevinter's teaching, and WITH the fact of Wynne's bok, and WITH the fact that her followers saw fit to build a statue of her with flaming mage-hands.

[dragonflight288]

I would also add that the statue of Andraste with her wielding a flame in her hand, in the tomb built to hold her ashes by those who knew her personally, is the only statue in the games that has her holding a flame. Every other statue has her holding a bowl, a sword or a spear, and those statues were made by the Chantry over 100 years after she died, and they didn't know her.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Don't put too much into her appearance in sculptures. Sculptures are mostly symbolic, and her carrying a flame can mean any number of things.

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Silfren wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Or, Andraste had massed Legionnaire Scouts; completely immune to magic. ~_^

Iimmunity only takes you so far.  It may make you immune to having things done directly to your body, but it ain't gonna stop you from being crushed if, say, a magical bolt knocks a boulder onto your head, etc.

That would assume Magisters are intelligent.  As we have seen, this is very far from the truth.

Just as Lobsy up there about his views on Merrill and Anders representing the Templar.

Think you could manage to call Lob's ideas stupid rather than calling his own intelligence into question?  There's no call for the personal attacks.

I was referring to his often cited example of Danarius believing that your companions are Templar.  My my, quick to assume, are we? 

Edit:  Not Danarius, that other mage.... Eh, regardless, Danarius and Caladrius aren't the smartest knives in the drawer.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 22 avril 2013 - 08:06 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't put too much into her appearance in sculptures. Sculptures are mostly symbolic, and her carrying a flame can mean any number of things.

Eh, were it just in the regular Chantry of today, you'd have a point. But the Chantry in Thedas we typically visit depicts her as not wielding fire from her hand. They depict her in armor, wielding swords or just looking like a normal woman.

Whereas the one in the Gauntlet, created by the people that knew Andraste and devoted their life to her, has her wielding flames from her hands and wearing robe-like vestments. In addition, Andraste apparently suffered some really weird-ass dreams (Somniari) and the Guardian says that she would meditate for days on end without food or drink (which a pair of boots in Witch Hunt has a description saying a Mage of one of the Circles would walk the Fade for days on end).

[DKJaigen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't put too much into her appearance in sculptures. Sculptures are mostly symbolic, and her carrying a flame can mean any number of things.

Eh, were it just in the regular Chantry of today, you'd have a point. But the Chantry in Thedas we typically visit depicts her as not wielding fire from her hand. They depict her in armor, wielding swords or just looking like a normal woman.

Whereas the one in the Gauntlet, created by the people that knew Andraste and devoted their life to her, has her wielding flames from her hands and wearing robe-like vestments. In addition, Andraste apparently suffered some really weird-ass dreams (Somniari) and the Guardian says that she would meditate for days on end without food or drink (which a pair of boots in Witch Hunt has a description saying a Mage of one of the Circles would walk the Fade for days on end).

The problem with the current chantry is that in the past it was one of the many andraste cults in the past that grew the strongest because Drakon elevated them. A wise move because this cult says they have to bring the chant to the 4 corners of the earth to earn the makers forgiveness. A wise move from the expansionist Drakon but doesnt mean that the chantry is correct.

Take for example the chant of Mafereth . The current chantry says the maker is pissed with them because Mafereth betrayed Andraste . Yet  this chant says that the maker himself is responsible for andraste dead. I think the chantry in haven is a far purer interpretation of andraste's followers (except the dragon nonsense) then what the current chantry is.

Which makes the statue peculiar as well as the large amount of mages among their ranks.

[Daerog]

Not so sure. With them being so isolated and only having an account from some of her disciples, they seem to have a very narrow idea on the whole story, one that could have twisted as much as any other recollection of the story over time.

The Chantry in Orlais has more access to historical accounts and any writings that were passed down from those who were on Andraste's side than anyone else. I would assume that they have a greater view of the whole situation than the hill people. The statue is interesting, yes, but moreso would be the records kept in some library in Orlais.

[TEWR]

The statue is interesting, yes, but moreso would be the records kept in some library in Orlais.

Assuming they weren't torched because they were deemed heretical.

[Asdrubael Vect]

intresting how many statues of Anraste were been in Thedas

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 01:51 .

[DKJaigen]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Not so sure. With them being so isolated and only having an account from some of her disciples, they seem to have a very narrow idea on the whole story, one that could have twisted as much as any other recollection of the story over time.

The Chantry in Orlais has more access to historical accounts and any writings that were passed down from those who were on Andraste's side than anyone else. I would assume that they have a greater view of the whole situation than the hill people. The statue is interesting, yes, but moreso would be the records kept in some library in Orlais.

Being isolated is a boon. Look on how many chants where writen and scrapped by the chantry. I dont recall any text that was written in andraste's time so anything that is in the orlais library is suspect.

[Asdrubael Vect]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Not so sure. With them being so isolated and only having an account from some of her disciples, they seem to have a very narrow idea on the whole story, one that could have twisted as much as any other recollection of the story over time.

The Chantry in Orlais has more access to historical accounts and any writings that were passed down from those who were on Andraste's side than anyone else. I would assume that they have a greater view of the whole situation than the hill people. The statue is interesting, yes, but moreso would be the records kept in some library in Orlais.

actually only Tevinter have a much more access to  historical accounts and various kinds of information/knowledge, and Dwarves(but I doubt that they have a lot of information about Thedas) with some Dalish Keepers

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 10:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't put too much into her appearance in sculptures. Sculptures are mostly symbolic, and her carrying a flame can mean any number of things.

Eh, were it just in the regular Chantry of today, you'd have a point. But the Chantry in Thedas we typically visit depicts her as not wielding fire from her hand. They depict her in armor, wielding swords or just looking like a normal woman.

Whereas the one in the Gauntlet, created by the people that knew Andraste and devoted their life to her, has her wielding flames from her hands and wearing robe-like vestments. In addition, Andraste apparently suffered some really weird-ass dreams (Somniari) and the Guardian says that she would meditate for days on end without food or drink (which a pair of boots in Witch Hunt has a description saying a Mage of one of the Circles would walk the Fade for days on end).

Again, wether they personally knew Andraste or not matters little when it comes to sculpting. Sculptures are rarely meant to be accurate depictions of the person it... well.. depicts. Often there are a whole cartload of symbolism in the sculpture. For instance, when the modern Chantry depicts Andraste in full armor and weapon in hand, instead of the inspirational preacher, it is because the Chantry sees Andraste as a defender of mankind. When the old original Andrastians, depicted Andraste (mind you the ones who made the Temple probably never met Andraste either), they depict her in regalia akin to a priestess, and carrying a flame. THe carrying of a flame is a common symbolism, which often means to carry hope, or enlightenment. It could literally mean hundreds of different things, and should probably not be taken literally, just like the modern Chantry's depictions of her shouldn't.