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[azarhal]

Palidane wrote...

I don't think Andraste was a mage, but if she was, she must have been the most badass mage to ever walk the planet. Disciple Cathair was her general, and he said her armies brought drought, famine, earthquakes, and floods down on the Imperium. We haven't seen anybody, mage or demon, pull off anything even near that scope. We have zero precedent for that kind of power, besides maybe direct Divine Intervention.

Every information we have about magic suggest that mages were way more powerful ages ago and that only Tevinter Magisters have any real knowledge now. A vast amount of knowledge was lost since the Chantry came to be. Although, it might have started with the 1st Blight and all the destruction it brought. Not to mention all the lost Elven kownledge because of the Human-Elven war.

A good example of that is Marethari who knows a ritual to send a group of people into the fade without lyrium or blood magic. In DA:O, you need blood magic with a sacrifice or a bunch of mages and lots of lyrium to do the same thing.

[Asdrubael Vect]

azarhal wrote...


Every information we have about magic suggest that mages were way more powerful ages ago and that only Tevinter Magisters have any real knowledge now. A vast amount of knowledge was lost since the Chantry came to be. Although, it might have started with the 1st Blight and all the destruction it brought. Not to mention all the lost Elven kownledge because of the Human-Elven war.

A good example of that is Marethari who knows a ritual to send a group of people into the fade without lyrium or blood magic. In DA:O, you need blood magic with a sacrifice or a bunch of mages and lots of lyrium to do the same thing.

Tevinters, Dalish, Witches, some High rank Grey Wardens(because of Tevinter) they have a real magical knoledge

Chantry Circles trying to prevent knowledge of magic

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

Silfren wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

1)Andraste is certainly can not be OGB because she was born a long after First Blight and Dumat were killed only by Ancient Tevinters Grey Wardens without any special ritual for that, so forget about this idea

Yeah, um, you know this how?  Hint:  you don't.  It IS quite possible that the Dark Ritual Flemeth gave to Morrigan was performed once in the past.  You don't have any idea whether or not it was done.  Don't go saying "certainly can't have been," as if it's totally impossible when you don't have any more information than the rest of us.

ok we  have some chance for Dark rituals and OGB, 

1)we not know what happening to the first Tevinter Grey Warden who slayed Dumat.

2)Zazikel were slayed by Tevinter Grey Warden Corin with help of Neriah and we too not know what happening to him

3)and we not know what happening to Tevinter Grey Warden unnamed mage who slayed Toth

4)we now that Elven Grey Warden WARRIOR(non-mage) Garahel died after killing Andoral but even this would be because of 

"a great wave of energy surged out from the beast. was enough to level what buildings were not already destroyed by the endless battle we had fought, enough to knock horses and Ogres[/color] aside as if they were little more than parchment. Even at my distance, the force struck me like the blast of some great storm."

"A great pillar of energy rushed up into the dark clouds, the blackness that had gathered with the horde and blocked out all glimmer of hope. When we stood again, we saw the first rays of sunshine peeking through those clouds and we let out such a cheer of joy and relief that it shook the very earth. I joined the others as we searched for Garahel, but as the eve approached all I found was his enchanted helm. It was not until much later that I heard his body had been retrieved, flung to the far side of the battlefield by the Archdemon's death throes. My friend, this elf who helped us unite the lands and cleanse Thedas of the darkspawn scourge will always be remembered. I swear it.—Excerpt from a letter written by the Grey Warden Prosper, 5:24 Exalted"

5)and our unknown gender/race/class Grey warden could do Dark Ritual with Morrigan

and as we know Flemet(it may be several powefull mages like she/he in Thedas), Javana, Morrigan is not only witches in Thedas  who possed such knoledge

.....so we have A POSSIBILITY of 3 or even 5 OGB(other 2 known dragons, for now is not found by darkspawns.)

but i am sure that Andraste not be OGB, because srly do you think that witches allowed her poor life, Tevinter slavery, and being bride(i still think that she's mindcontroll him) of some old non-mage barbarian chief and after her execution? 

ok, may be she was young/naive/stupid and ran away from witches and she wanted to reclaim her worshipping as Old God in Thedas and Tevinter, but no one unfortunately listen her(some random magister: srly little girl you are a Old God Dumat? hmm ok, let go and find some "golden necklace and bracelets" for you my sweetie "goddess"[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]) and she was a slave in Tevinter and after she ran away and have and found bearded chief Maferat and his barbarians..

.and for some(ok, Tevinters fo 200 years abandon worshiping to Old Gods) reasons Magisters and Archont was quicly deafeted her and execute(for some reasons Archont himself cut her head)

so really this is sound a bit silly  that she was OGB

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 01:49 .

[MisterJB]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Don't put too much into her appearance in sculptures. Sculptures are mostly symbolic, and her carrying a flame can mean any number of things.

Eh, were it just in the regular Chantry of today, you'd have a point. But the Chantry in Thedas we typically visit depicts her as not wielding fire from her hand. They depict her in armor, wielding swords or just looking like a normal woman.

Whereas the one in the Gauntlet, created by the people that knew Andraste and devoted their life to her, has her wielding flames from her hands and wearing robe-like vestments. In addition, Andraste apparently suffered some really weird-ass dreams (Somniari) and the Guardian says that she would meditate for days on end without food or drink (which a pair of boots in Witch Hunt has a description saying a Mage of one of the Circles would walk the Fade for days on end).

Again, wether they personally knew Andraste or not matters little when it comes to sculpting. Sculptures are rarely meant to be accurate depictions of the person it... well.. depicts. Often there are a whole cartload of symbolism in the sculpture. For instance, when the modern Chantry depicts Andraste in full armor and weapon in hand, instead of the inspirational preacher, it is because the Chantry sees Andraste as a defender of mankind. When the old original Andrastians, depicted Andraste (mind you the ones who made the Temple probably never met Andraste either), they depict her in regalia akin to a priestess, and carrying a flame. THe carrying of a flame is a common symbolism, which often means to carry hope, or enlightenment. It could literally mean hundreds of different things, and should probably not be taken literally, just like the modern Chantry's depictions of her shouldn't.

Plus, every symbol of the Andrastean faith has fire in it somewhere; the Eternal Flame, the flames around the Templar Sword, the Sun. It doesn't really have to indicate that she could actually produce fire. You even have to walk through fire  in the Gauntlet.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 avril 2013 - 01:57 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

or she can as Tevinters mage-warriors/soldiers...circles mages even have special spells for that

many Templars sword are enchanted by mages, as many Tevinter weapons and armors..and symbol of Templar sword is a sword of Archont Hessarian who cut Andraste head while se was burn of fire

sun is symbol of Orlais chantry, but we have this symbol on a Tevinter and a many things too...i am not hink that it is only Andraste & Maker symbol

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 02:02 .

[TEWR]

(mind you the ones who made the Temple probably never met Andraste either

Havard, a disciple of Andraste that personally knew her, was the one that carried the ashes to the mountain with the intent of building said temple. And I recall a codex penned by Genitivi saying that Andraste's followers took her ashes, hid them away, and built a temple devoted to her.

Since Havard took the Ashes away after being healed by them (supposedly he was healed by them) and into the mountains, then proceeded to build a temple to her, it seems safe to say that the people that built said temple knew her.

Plus, the Guardian also knew her. You can ask him to tell you about her.

THe carrying of a flame is a common symbolism, which often means to carry hope, or enlightenment. It could literally mean hundreds of different things, and should probably not be taken literally, just like the modern Chantry's depictions of her shouldn't.

Were we not presented with other evidence supporting a mage Andraste theory, I'd agree with you that it's simply indicative of that.

But it is not just that. That is part of it, but it is not the only thing. Again, the details we have of how Andraste lived tell us that she was very likely a Mage. She is described as having meditated for days on end, without food or water. I again point to the description on a pair of boots talking of how a Mage liked to walk the winding and fluctuating roads of the Fade for days on end.

Furthermore, she suffered terrible dreams of "the Maker" from a very early age.

Hmmm... who else have we known to have been plagued by horrifying dreams? Ah yes, Feynriel, a Somniari Mage. Granted, they weren't of "the Maker", but no dream is going to be the same now is it?

And as Silfren pointed out, the idea that Tevinter suffered from natural disasters that crippled their forces while Andraste's weren't affected seems particularly... Mage-y.

That smell... a type of smelly smell. The type of smelly smell that smells... smelly.

Palidane wrote...

I don't think Andraste was a mage, but if she was, she must have been the most badass mage to ever walk the planet. Disciple Cathair was her general, and he said her armies brought drought, famine, earthquakes, and floods down on the Imperium. We haven't seen anybody, mage or demon, pull off anything even near that scope. We have zero precedent for that kind of power, besides maybe direct Divine Intervention.

As I said on the previous page, a particular description of Andraste is reminiscent of the lore surrounding Somniari Mages, who are in a league of their own when it comes to magic. They're, simply put, extremely powerful Mages.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 avril 2013 - 02:12 .

[MisterJB]

Andraste's dreams are a good point but the meditating for days on end is a stretch.
Other than that, the details of her life actually points towards her not being a mage. For one, the idea of a mage fighting to throw down an empire of mages is unlikely, to say the very least. And even if we assume that to be true, she would still have attempted it in the most impractical manner possible.
This does not rule out the possibility of ehr being a mage but it definitively points in the opposite direction.

Regarding the natural disasters, that is entirely a matter of opinion. It could have been Andraste's doing or she simply was intelligent enough to take advantage of them.
Those who prefer her to be a mage will say the former, those who wish her not to be. the latter.

[TEWR]

Other than that, the details of her life actually points towards her not being a mage. For one, the idea of a mage fighting to throw down an empire of mages is unlikely, to say the very least

I don't see why. The Imperium enslaved Mages and non-Mages alike, and people are naturally going to want to topple an oppressive regime even if they could benefit should they become like them. Empires rise and fall, despite the fact that people could use said empires to their personal advantage by trying to elevate their standing.

And even if we assume that to be true, she would still have attempted it in the most impractical manner possible.

Marrying a barbarian warlord and amassing an army of united clansmen that fight with ferocity and strength unparalleled and striking your opponent when they've just been devastated by a Blight (such that they lost a number of troops and resources) is impractical?

I beg to differ.

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I don't see why. The Imperium enslaved Mages and non-Mages alike, and people are naturally going to want to topple an oppressive regime even if they could benefit should they become like them. Empires rise and fall, despite the fact that people could use said empires to their personal advantage by trying to elevate their standing.

Empires fall for many reasons and only rarely because people who benefit from it decided not to.
Mage Andraste, who could have become Archon, chose to go to the most uncivilized area in the continent? I find that hard to believe.

Marrying a barbarian warlord and amassing an army of united clansmen that fight with ferocity and strength unparalleled and striking your opponent when they've just been devastated by a Blight (such that they lost a number of troops and resources) is impractical?

I beg to differ.

Yes, trying to defeat the most powerful empire in recorded history with a group of unwashed barbarians whose weaponry largely consisted of leather vests and iron weapons rather than attempt to use her amazing powers to take control of said empire and use its already existing infrastructure to improve life for non-mages if that is what she wished.
Unless she was not a mage and conquering it was the only option.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 avril 2013 - 02:53 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Andraste's dreams are a good point but the meditating for days on end is a stretch.

Like Ethereal mentioned, a Circle mage travelled to the Fade for days at a time, and was presumed dead by the templars because she was gone for so long (although she was actually alive). It wouldn't be impossible.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 22 avril 2013 - 03:00 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Other than that, the details of her life actually points towards her not being a mage. For one, the idea of a mage fighting to throw down an empire of mages is unlikely, to say the very least

I don't see why. The Imperium enslaved Mages and non-Mages alike, and people are naturally going to want to topple an oppressive regime even if they could benefit should they become like them. Empires rise and fall, despite the fact that people could use said empires to their personal advantage by trying to elevate their standing.

And even if we assume that to be true, she would still have attempted it in the most impractical manner possible.

Marrying a barbarian warlord and amassing an army of united clansmen that fight with ferocity and strength unparalleled and striking your opponent when they've just been devastated by a Blight (such that they lost a number of troops and resources) is impractical?

I beg to differ.

You're talking to the guy who insists that if Andraste had been a mage, the most logical route for her to take would be to rise through the ranks of Magisters and change Tevinter from within; that she did not do that, the most logical move, he swears up and down means she could not possibly have been a mage.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like Ethereal mentioned, a Circle mage travelled to the Fade for days at a time, and was presumed dead by the templars because she was gone for so long (although she was actually alive). It wouldn't be impossible.

No but meditating and fasting are not exclusive to mages.

[The Elder King]

As I see the situation, the lore and the games didn't show any hints or evidences that objectively lead to one of the two theories to be more likely. People will intepret the hints in lore and games as they wish, and say that one of the theories is pointed by the games.
If I worked at Bioware and liked to troll the fanbase, I'd try to find the solution that would ****** everyone. Hope for you guys that the Bioware folks will not decide for this (if they haven't already decided).
As for my self, I don't care which theory is true. I just hope we'll not get Flemeth=Andraste, or Leliana being the reincarnation of Andraste, since I'll believe it would be ridicously stupid, and I'll probably laugh to death for the idiocy of either revelations.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
he swears up and down means she could not possibly have been a mage.

I have never done such thing. What I did was point out that history and logic suggest that Andraste was not a mage.
Sure, Andraste could have been a mage and she could have chosen the most impractical way of achieving her goals because she just hated the Imperium that much but until we have an indication that this is what happened, I'm not basing my beliefs on who Andraste was on the possibility that she acted in an illogical manner.

That is to believe in a theory despite the facts rather than because of them.

[azarhal]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plus, the Guardian also knew her. You can ask him to tell you about her.

I read a theory that suggest the Guardian is Havard.

[Silfren]

hhh89 wrote...

As I see the situation, the lore and the games didn't show any hints or evidences that objectively lead to one of the two theories to be more likely. People will intepret the hints in lore and games as they wish, and say that one of the theories is pointed by the games.
If I worked at Bioware and liked to troll the fanbase, I'd try to find the solution that would ****** everyone. Hope for you guys that the Bioware folks will not decide for this (if they haven't already decided).
As for my self, I don't care which theory is true. I just hope we'll not get Flemeth=Andraste, or Leliana being the reincarnation of Andraste, since I'll believe it would be ridicously stupid, and I'll probably laugh to death for the idiocy of either revelations.

*shrug* I am comfortably certain that Bioware isn't going to troll anyone--I find the idea kind of eye-rollingly stupid, actually.  That's the work of trolls and immature fanfic writers, not professional game writers.

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:17 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Like Ethereal mentioned, a Circle mage travelled to the Fade for days at a time, and was presumed dead by the templars because she was gone for so long (although she was actually alive). It wouldn't be impossible.

No but meditating and fasting are not exclusive to mages.

Why is that a strech? The church I attend just finished a month long fast and our faith demands we stay in meditation. Pray, Pray, Pray! I don't think its a strech a highly spiritual woman would stay in meditation for weeks on end in the Fade where she could actually speak to the Maker.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 avril 2013 - 03:26 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

 From an early age , Andraste suffered troubling dreams of the Maker

Tevinter is sort of the firt state to adopt Andraste Teaching.After Archon Hessarion heard the Maker.A lot of altus* magisters and old god priests were killed during this period called :Transfiguration.A lot
who converted said they saw Andraste spirit in the fade...

for now this with other knowing facts is 100% proof that Andraste was a mage

*There are 4 classes in Tevinter : 2 mages/2 non mages.
1 :The Altus :descendats of the frist dreamers who used to talk with the Old gods.
2:The Laetans :mages with non glorious heritage , a lot of them are mages born
in non mages family.
3:Soporati (non mage):they can own land , join the military etc but they can't
rule....
4 Slaves.Those who are freed are called Liberati they have limited rights.

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 03:23 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
he swears up and down means she could not possibly have been a mage.

I have never done such thing. What I did was point out that history and logic suggest that Andraste was not a mage.
Sure, Andraste could have been a mage and she could have chosen the most impractical way of achieving her goals because she just hated the Imperium that much but until we have an indication that this is what happened, I'm not basing my beliefs on who Andraste was on the possibility that she acted in an illogical manner.

That is to believe in a theory despite the facts rather than because of them.

I have to point out again that just because it appears illogical to you means little.  You are not the final arbiter on what is and isn't logical...especially not when you don't have access to any more facts about the situation Andraste was in than the rest of us. 

You're also ruling out the possibility that it might not even have occurred to her to try to change Tevinter from within.  That is, whatever you may think, possible.  If Andraste, having fled from slavery and taken up life with Maferath and his people, decided she was of a mind to conquer, it's believable that the alternative of change-from-within might not have entered her mind.  You seem to be of the mind that people are wont to sit down and consider all options available to them, calculating the logic of each one.  I don't actually know many people at all who do that, so I'm not troubled by the idea that Andraste could have been a mage and yet picked supposedly the most illogical means of destroying the Imperium.  Especially since I could see it possibly having been originally Maferath's intention to conquer--he was the warlord, after all.  Perhaps Andraste's visions simply convinced her to work with him.  Perhaps he decided to use her Maker-visions to his advantage...only to watch it all get away from him as his wife grew in influence and popularity.

I had initially thought that Andraste being a Somniari Blood Mage early OGB of Flemeth was something of a stretch, and I still think it is kind of going overboard that she could have been all those things.  But it occurs to me that I can see how the blood mage angle would fit. 

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[MisterJB]

Youth4Ever wrote...
Why is that a strech? The church I attend just finished a month long fast and our faith demands we stay in meditation. Pray, Pray, Pray! I don't think its a strech a highly spiritual woman would stay in meditation for weeks on end.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me but I called it a stretch because of matching one description; not even a codex; of a particular mage's habits with one of Andraste's and calling it evidence that she was a mage.
As you said, spiritual people are very much capable of fasting and meditating. It's not exclusive to mages.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I have to point out again that just because it appears illogical to you means little  You are not the final arbiter on what is and isn't logical...especially not when you don't have access to any more facts about the situation Andraste was in than the rest of us. 

That is true. Do you have a more logical way of proceeding to suggest based on the information that we have acess to?

You seem to be of the mind that people are wont to sit down and consider all options available to them, calculating the logic of each one.  I don't actually know many people at all who do that,

I assume that people who wish to change an entire continent will sit down and consider all the options available to them before setting out to destroy an empire, yes.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 avril 2013 - 03:32 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Why is that a strech? The church I attend just finished a month long fast and our faith demands we stay in meditation. Pray, Pray, Pray! I don't think its a strech a highly spiritual woman would stay in meditation for weeks on end.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me but I called it a stretch because of matching one description; not even a codex; of a particular mage's habits with one of Andraste's and calling it evidence that she was a mage.
As you said, spiritual people are very much capable of fasting and meditating. It's not exclusive to mages.

I think it's more that since we know of one mage who was in the habit of traversing the Fade for so long she was mistakenly believed to be dead, that when people hear of Andraste meditating and fasting for days on end, it conjures up the same image.  Taking that with what we know about the Fade, and the fact that Andraste is said to have had talked directly with the Maker, who supposedly showed her all the works of his hands...in the context of the DA universe that sounds like she was in the Fade literally communing with an exceptionally powerful spirit. 

When you also consider that powerful mages attract powerful spirits...well, that could certainly explain why this Maker spirit was following Andraste about and trying to woo her...

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I have to point out again that just because it appears illogical to you means little  You are not the final arbiter on what is and isn't logical...especially not when you don't have access to any more facts about the situation Andraste was in than the rest of us. 

That is true. Do you have a more logical way of proceeding to suggest based on the information that we have acess to?

I find this barely worth addressing, really, since I've already given you my position on your particular brand of logic, and I will again point out that I see no reason at all that the events as we understand them to have happened should lead to the conclusion that Andraste's being a mage is an unlikely scenario.  Your entire position appears to be that choosing to overthrow Tevinter rather than change it from within means that it is unlikely Andraste was a mage, and I find that stance to be laughable in the extreme.

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You seem to be of the mind that people are wont to sit down and consider all options available to them, calculating the logic of each one.  I don't actually know many people at all who do that,

I assume that people who wish to change an entire continent will sit down and consider all the options available to them before setting out to destroy an empire, yes.

We don't know that she was sitting about thinking to herself, "I want to change the world and free the slaves.  How might I best achieve this?"  She could well have been thinking, "Tevinter is evil and I will destroy it and free the slaves."

Modifié par Silfren, 22 avril 2013 - 03:46 .

[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
Why is that a strech? The church I attend just finished a month long fast and our faith demands we stay in meditation. Pray, Pray, Pray! I don't think its a strech a highly spiritual woman would stay in meditation for weeks on end.

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me but I called it a stretch because of matching one description; not even a codex; of a particular mage's habits with one of Andraste's and calling it evidence that she was a mage.
As you said, spiritual people are very much capable of fasting and meditating. It's not exclusive to mages.

Its corroborating evidence is what I'm saying. You don't look at it without the context of initial evidence to support Andraste being a mage. To isolate it would be to ignore other evidence in this situation. A mage literally has a greater spiritual attunment than regular people-- Their connection to the Fade. The benefits they stand to gain from meditation and spritual fasting are in theory greater.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 avril 2013 - 10:52 .

[The Elder King]

Silfren wrote...

*shrug* I am comfortably certain that Bioware isn't going to troll anyone--I find the idea kind of eye-rollingly stupid, actually.  That's the work of trolls and immature fanfic writers, not professional game writers.

I agree (that's why I said if I liked to troll the fanbase I'd do someone like that), but it depends about your opinion of what is "trolling". Some fans believe that  with the ME3 endings (expecially before EC), and the Refuse ending, Bioware trolled the fanbase. I don't agree, but someone see it that way.
I'd say I believe that Flemeth=Andraste and Leliana=Andraste's reincarnation are pretty stupid though, near the borders of trolling the fanbase.