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[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I find this barely worth addressing, really, since I've already given you my position on your particular brand of logic, and I will again point out that I see no reason at all that the events as we understand them to have happened should lead to the conclusion that Andraste's being a mage is an unlikely scenario.  Your entire position appears to be that choosing to overthrow Tevinter rather than change it from within means that it is unlikely Andraste was a mage, and I find that stance to be laughable in the extreme.

So, basically, "no".

We don't know that she was sitting about thinking to herself, "I want to change the world and free the slaves.  How might I best achieve this?"  She could well have been thinking, "Tevinter is evil and I will destroy it and free the slaves."

But you have nothing whatsoever to suggest this. You believe that
Andraste would just have chosen the path that diminished the chances of
her accomplishing her goals while pretty much ensuring that the first
people to die would be the slaves without a single basis to this claim.
And that I find laughable.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 avril 2013 - 03:54 .

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

I agree (that's why I said if I liked to troll the fanbase I'd do someone like that), but it depends about your opinion of what is "trolling". Some fans believe that  with the ME3 endings (expecially before EC), and the Refuse ending, Bioware trolled the fanbase. I don't agree, but someone see it that way.
I'd say I believe that Flemeth=Andraste and Leliana=Andraste's reincarnation are pretty stupid though, near the borders of trolling the fanbase.

Why is Flemeth=Andraste trolling?

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

I agree (that's why I said if I liked to troll the fanbase I'd do someone like that), but it depends about your opinion of what is "trolling". Some fans believe that  with the ME3 endings (expecially before EC), and the Refuse ending, Bioware trolled the fanbase. I don't agree, but someone see it that way.
I'd say I believe that Flemeth=Andraste and Leliana=Andraste's reincarnation are pretty stupid though, near the borders of trolling the fanbase.

Why is Flemeth=Andraste trolling?

I didn't say it's trolling. I said it's incredibly stupid, near the borders of trolling.
I believe that because, from what we knows about the character, they are two completely different characters (aside for the fact that Andraste might be a mage), and there is practically no hints or evidence that they are the same character. Andraste, in every lore we got, died in the pyre (no matter if for the fire or the sword of the magister/archon), while Flemeth (while most believed she was a legend) were always said to be alive. The lore and Morrigan and Leliana's stories follow this path. The temple in Haven follow this path (which doesn't mean much since it could be lyrium allucination, though I don't believe in this theory). Flemeth's herself, to the Warden, when she talked about herself (though she didn't say much, and you could say that she was lying) never made hints about her being somehow Andraste.
As the situation is now, I don't see any hints for those characters been the same. They are two completely different characters, with different goals. Of course, unless we met Andraste in the Fade or in whatever method, Bioware could very well made the theory Andraste=Flemeth real. It wouldn't change (for me, I want to note) that this is going to remain incredibly stupid. I might enjoy the reaction of Chantry followers in-game to this revelation, though (and Morrigan's too, if she doesn't know about her identity).

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

(mind you the ones who made the Temple probably never met Andraste either

Havard, a disciple of Andraste that personally knew her, was the one that carried the ashes to the mountain with the intent of building said temple. And I recall a codex penned by Genitivi saying that Andraste's followers took her ashes, hid them away, and built a temple devoted to her.

Since Havard took the Ashes away after being healed by them (supposedly he was healed by them) and into the mountains, then proceeded to build a temple to her, it seems safe to say that the people that built said temple knew her.

Plus, the Guardian also knew her. You can ask him to tell you about her.

A Temple of that size and location would take several centuries to build. Only a very precious few of those builders would ever have known Andraste personally, and by the Temple's finish, none would remain who could remeber Andraste. And the Guardian is an apparition of unknown origin, and we can't really use his words for anything, since he neither denies, nor confirms Andraste as a mage, so his input on this matter is irrelevant.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

THe carrying of a flame is a common symbolism, which often means to carry hope, or enlightenment. It could literally mean hundreds of different things, and should probably not be taken literally, just like the modern Chantry's depictions of her shouldn't.

Were we not presented with other evidence supporting a mage Andraste theory, I'd agree with you that it's simply indicative of that.

But it is not just that. That is part of it, but it is not the only thing. Again, the details we have of how Andraste lived tell us that she was very likely a Mage. She is described as having meditated for days on end, without food or water. I again point to the description on a pair of boots talking of how a Mage liked to walk the winding and fluctuating roads of the Fade for days on end.

Furthermore, she suffered terrible dreams of "the Maker" from a very early age.

Hmmm... who else have we known to have been plagued by horrifying dreams? Ah yes, Feynriel, a Somniari Mage. Granted, they weren't of "the Maker", but no dream is going to be the same now is it?

And as Silfren pointed out, the idea that Tevinter suffered from natural disasters that crippled their forces while Andraste's weren't affected seems particularly... Mage-y.

That smell... a type of smelly smell. The type of smelly smell that smells... smelly.

Mother Teresa also "suffered" from dreams. I don't think she was a mage.. Hell, I know several soldiers who suffer from recurrent dreams, they certainly aren't mages... It doesn't take magical ability to be suffering from recurrent dreams,so Andraste doing so, is indicative of nothing. And some Buddhist monks mediate for days on end without food or water aswell, doesn't take magical ability either.

And the biggest nail in the coffin of mage Andraste theory is exactly those disasters. If it were indeed Andraste who cast spells that decimated an entire region of Thedas, then not only would that be an unprecedented display of magical power, which surely would have torn the veil asunder, she would also have had to do so in complete secrecy, or else her enemies and allies alike would have known her as a mage.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

I didn't say it's trolling. I said it's incredibly stupid, near the borders of trolling. 
I believe that because, from what we knows about the character, they are two completely different characters (aside for the fact that Andraste might be a mage), and there is practically no hints or evidence that they are the same character.

If it were true, you don't think they would begin to hint at the possibility or perhaps that after other evidence of Andraste's life surfaces or hints as to what Flemeth is, we might be expected to but the pieces together ourselves, or that later, we may be able to look back on DAO and DA2 and think, "I see now they were going in this direction, but didn't get it then because I just didn't have all the pieces or the right context to put it together or I just didn't thikn of it that way."

If they randomly say Flemeth is Andraste with no explanation or hints or foreshadwing that would be offputting, but I don't think they would do that, and personally, I view Flemeth more as a sort of Angel of Death with her prophecies of change.

Nothing lives without death-- the ending is the seed of a new, stronger beginning. She may appear fearsome and monstrous to mortals but she could be good in reality. Most if not all biblical angels were fearsome, frightening beings naturally but they were still instruments and messengers of God with only righteous intent. And many have entertained Angels unware-- if you do meet one, they often don't explain who or what they are and they take a form you would be more comfortable with.

And if you saw her for what she really was it would negate the purpose of faith and peronal spiritual transformation. 

Andraste, in every lore we got, died in the pyre (no matter if for the fire or the sword of the magister/archon), while Flemeth (while most believed she was a legend) were always said to be alive.The lore and Morrigan and Leliana's stories follow this path.

I still don't see where it conflicts. Andraste's spirit crossed into the Fade at death but that does not mean she couldn't come back. Spirits can inhabit bodies. Justice did. A variety of demons do. Claudio Valisti's spirit is called back from the Fade and bound again to his body by one of Flemeth's daughters in the comics. Flemeth was possessed wasn't she by a spirit she begged for help? Conobar and Cormac weren't so good as in the vanilla tale were they? And why should Leliana and Morrigan know the complete tale as it happened? They just repeat what they've been told and that doesn't make it the whole truth.

The temple in Haven follow this path (which doesn't mean much since it could be lyrium allucination, though I don't believe in this theory).

The Haven dragon cult believes Andraste to have returned in dragon form. Their beliefs have likely been preserved for centuries in isolation. It is obvious the High Dragon is not Andraste, but their belief n a returned dragon Andraste, I don't believe, is entirely baseless. And Flemeth is a dragon shapeshifter...

Flemeth's herself, to the Warden, when she talked about herself (though she didn't say much, and you could say that she was lying) never made hints about her being somehow Andraste.

Its too good a story element to give away a few hours into the first Dragon Age.

As the situation is now, I don't see any hints for those characters been the same. They are two completely different characters, with different goals. Of course, unless we met Andraste in the Fade or in whatever method, Bioware could very well made the theory Andraste=Flemeth real. It wouldn't change (for me, I want to note) that this is going to remain incredibly stupid. I might enjoy the reaction of Chantry followers in-game to this revelation, though (and Morrigan's too, if she doesn't know about her identity).

I think there is much more to it than you think.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 avril 2013 - 05:48 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Youth4Ever

Flemet is not the only one shapeshifter(even Dragon shapeshifter) in Thedas history, and as we know Andraste was never doing that thing...only mindcontroll and some powefull nature/fire spells

Flemet is ancient and powerfull Old God worchiper witch, who drink High Dragon blood and changed many bodies with some ancient ritualls(Corypheus did this stuff without any problem)

or may be she is one of Old Gods(Zazikel or others...gender is not really important) who was saved with Dark Ritual(we maybe have 3 or even 5 OGB) and she became very weak and need to change bodies after some time

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 05:35 .

[MisterJB]

Look here, another statue of Andraste with fire.

[Asdrubael Vect]

facepalm<_<

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 22 avril 2013 - 05:51 .

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...


If it were true, you don't think they would begin to hint at the possibility or perhaps that after other evidence of Andraste's life surfaces or hints as to what Flemeth is, we might be expected to but the pieces together ourselves, or that later, we may be able to look back on DAO and DA2 and think, "I see now they were going in this direction, but didn't get it then because I just didn't have all the pieces or the right context to put it together or I just didn't thikn of it that way."

If they randomly say Flemeth is Andraste with no explanation or hints or foreshadwing that would be offputting, but I don't think they would do that, and personally, I view Flemeth more as a sort of Angel of Death with her prophecies of change.

I never said that they'd say Flemeth=Andraste without explanations or hints in previous games (for example, they could make hints in DA3, and then decide if continue making hints in DA4 or directly announce her identity in DA4). My point is that, if they wanted to follow this route, they could've done already in the previous games. Since there are no hints, the theory is just wishful thinking.
I admit that it's not necessary to make hints in the first two games. They could do it in the following games, before revealing the truth. Still, at this point, the theory has no basis (in my opinion).

I still don't see where it conflicts. Andraste's spirit crossed into the Fade at death but does not mean she couldn't come back. Spirits can inhabit bodies. Justice did. A variety of demons do. Claudio Valisti's spirit is called back from the Fade and bound again to his body by one of Flemeth's daughters in the comics. Flemeth was possessed wasn't she? Conobar and Cormac weren't so good as in the vanilla tale were they? And why should Leliana and Morrigan know the complete tale as it happened? They just repeat what they've been told and that doesn't make it the whole truth.

I never said that the stories about Flemeth and Andraste conflicted between each other. I said that they told about different characters.
Regardless, the spirits of the Fade can inhabit bodies. There is no evidence that a human or elf spirit could possess bodies. Justice isn't the same type of spirit as Andraste. Until you can prove that a human spirt can possess a body (regardless of living or dead) you have no basis to make this theory believable.
As for Leliana and Morrigan's stories, they are examples of what the game is suggesting, one coming from Flemeth herself. Granted, Morrigan (or Flemeth to Morrigan) could be lying about the story, but we have no evidence to believe otherwise.

The Haven dragon cult believes Andraste to have returned in dragon form. Their beliefs have likely been preserved for centuries in isolation. It is obvious the High Dragon is not Andraste, but their belief n a returned dragon Andraste, I don't believe, is entirely baseless. And Flemeth is a dragon shapeshifter...

Unless I read hints or evidence about the possibility of Andraste becoming an High Dragon, I wouldn't believe that the Haven cult have any evidence other their insanity.

Its too good a story element to give away a few hours into the first Dragon Age.

I don't think it's that good of a story element, but I can see why they wouldn't put anything in the first hours of DAO. Still, it's the only time when Flemeth talked about herself.

I think there is much more to it than you think.

Much more of what? Evidence? Hints? If so, feel free to explain to me. It's not like I remember everything of the books and games, so I might have missed something.
If the "much more" is referred to how much it could bring to DA, I disagree, but I believe it's a matter of opinion.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

Look here, another statue of Andraste with fire.

As I said, I don't care much about the subject, and I don't believe any evidence favours either of the theories, but this statue is  simply the rapresentation of ther death. She's on fire.It's different than having flames in your hands (though there are other way to interpret the meaning of the flame other that magic).
Regardless, I find the statue, which is in Orlais, curious, since she has a sword in her chest, which is supposedly done by the Archon to give her peace or whatever (by the Tevinter interpretation of the events to explain how the conversion started). I find the presence of this statue in Orlais strange.

[Asdrubael Vect]

hhh89 may be this is a statue of some saint Orlais exhibitionist prostitute who was slain by evil mages, but she was enjoy that as we see

[lil yonce]

hhh89 wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...


If it were true, you don't think they would begin to hint at the possibility or perhaps that after other evidence of Andraste's life surfaces or hints as to what Flemeth is, we might be expected to but the pieces together ourselves, or that later, we may be able to look back on DAO and DA2 and think, "I see now they were going in this direction, but didn't get it then because I just didn't have all the pieces or the right context to put it together or I just didn't thikn of it that way."

If they randomly say Flemeth is Andraste with no explanation or hints or foreshadwing that would be offputting, but I don't think they would do that, and personally, I view Flemeth more as a sort of Angel of Death with her prophecies of change.

I never said that they'd say Flemeth=Andraste without explanations or hints in previous games (for example, they could make hints in DA3, and then decide if continue making hints in DA4 or directly announce her identity in DA4). My point is that, if they wanted to follow this route, they could've done already in the previous games. Since there are no hints, the theory is just wishful thinking. 
I admit that it's not necessary to make hints in the first two games. They could do it in the following games, before revealing the truth. Still, at this point, the theory has no basis (in my opinion).

I also said-- perhaps that after other evidence of Andraste's life surfaces or hints as to what Flemeth is, we might be expected to but the pieces together ourselves, or that later, we may be able to look back on DAO and DA2 and think, "I see now they were going in this direction, but didn't get it then because I just didn't have all the pieces or the right context to put it together or I just didn't thikn of it that way." 

I never said that the stories about Flemeth and Andraste conflicted between each other. I said that they told about different characters. Regardless, the spirits of the Fade can inhabit bodies. There is no evidence that a human or elf spirit could possess bodies. Justice isn't the same type of spirit as Andraste. Until you can prove that a human spirt can possess a body (regardless of living or dead) you have no basis to make this theory believable.

How do you know that Fade spirits aren't human or elven spirts to begin with? Andrastians believe you wander the Fade/Beyond after death-- just like spirits wander around the Fade-- if you aren't brought to the Maker's side.

Though all before me is shadow,
Yet shall the Maker be my guide.
I shall not be left to wander the drifting roads of the Beyond.
For there is no darkness in the Maker's Light
And nothing that He has wrought shall be lost.


Another verse stricken from the Chant says the Maker's first children were not the Spirits but the Old Gods were.

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.-

Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

So what are Spirits really? Perhaps souls that have once forgotten they were people they've been dead so long?

And if that is not the case, you don't believe the spirit of a powerful mage, perhaps a dreamer, or the spirit of an OGB could possess someone if they choose?

As for Leliana and Morrigan's stories, they are examples of what the game is suggesting, one coming from Flemeth herself. Granted, Morrigan (or Flemeth to Morrigan) could be lying about the story, but we have no evidence to believe otherwise.

Flemeth doesn't tell Morrigan everything. She raised her to believe in certain things and discount a litany other ideas. She's grooming her for a specific purpose that is probably best serverd by her not knowing the whole truth and having the arrogant personality to believe she does.

]Unless I read hints or evidence about the possibility of Andraste becoming an High Dragon, I wouldn't believe that the Haven cult have any evidence other their insanity.

They've worshipped in isolation for centuries. They were the only people who knew the urn actually exisisted. They follow some very old traditions and beliefs on the mountain and even have a mage as their leader. They are so fervent in belief they go overboard in some areas of their faith, but I wouldn't discount entirely everything they practiced or believed in. They have a library with forgotten books, forgotten verses etc. I won't dismiss them completely.

I don't think it's that good of a story element, but I can see why they wouldn't put anything in the first hours of DAO. Still, it's the only time when Flemeth talked about herself.

I like the line, "You are required to do nothing least of all believe."  Faith is the hardest thing to have and IMO faith is the basis of Andraste's character and its the basis of Andrastianism. Faith and what you believe-- even in a more mundane sense-- are the first things Flemeth starts talking about.

Much more of what? Evidence? Hints? If so, feel free to explain to me. It's not like I remember everything of the books and games, so I might have missed something. If the "much more" is referred to how much it could bring to DA, I disagree, but I believe it's a matter of opinion.

Its more to do with how you look at what has been presented and how you make connections going forward. 

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 avril 2013 - 10:48 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
We don't know that she was sitting about thinking to herself, "I want to change the world and free the slaves.  How might I best achieve this?"  She could well have been thinking, "Tevinter is evil and I will destroy it and free the slaves."

But you have nothing whatsoever to suggest this. You believe that Andraste would just have chosen the path that diminished the chances of her accomplishing her goals while pretty much ensuring that the first people to die would be the slaves without a single basis to this claim.And that I find laughable.

I believe that there are any number of reasons why Andraste could have chosen to go about her rebellion the way that she did, and I do not believe that any of them mean that it is unlikely she could have been a mage. 

I even think it's possible that her intentions in starting a rebellion were radically different from what is believed, for much the same reason I know for a fact that many assumptions about Christianity and its own primary figure are totally false...but try explaining this to diehard believers. 

I also am not interested in whitewashing Andraste into someone who was not aware that innocents were going to die in her war.  Even if she was not a mage, if it bothered her at all that slaves were going to die as a result of her actions--and you can bet that more than a few did--then she shouldn't have been waging war in the first place, mage or no.  She wanted to conquer Tevinter.  Mage or not, that was her goal, from all appearances.  The only one here insisting that she must have JUST wanted to free the slaves and therefore would surely had spent time strategizing the best way to do that, is you.

Finally, I think it's even a possibility that Maferath was the conquerer who waged war on the Imperium, and Andraste's spiritual campaign was something that happened alongside his own; but that she gets all the credit and focus because, well, history can sometimes go that way.

The available evidence tells ME that Andraste heard visions of the Maker that prompted her to conquer Tevinter.  I see no contradiction here in the possibility that she was a mage.  Actually I think it strengthens the idea.  Who else is more likely to have visions of a powerful spirit conversing with her and showing her things...a mundane, or a mage?  Don't forget, one thing we're told about Fade denizens is that they are attracted to mages, and the more powerful mages attract more powerful spirits...and we're told that Tevinters certainly do teach that she was an exceptionally powerful mage. 

[Silfren]

hhh89 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Look here, another statue of Andraste with fire.

As I said, I don't care much about the subject, and I don't believe any evidence favours either of the theories, but this statue is  simply the rapresentation of ther death. She's on fire.It's different than having flames in your hands (though there are other way to interpret the meaning of the flame other that magic).
Regardless, I find the statue, which is in Orlais, curious, since she has a sword in her chest, which is supposedly done by the Archon to give her peace or whatever (by the Tevinter interpretation of the events to explain how the conversion started). I find the presence of this statue in Orlais strange.

Why? That Andraste was killed by a sword through the heart is taught by the Orlesian Chantry as well as the Tevinter one...it's hardly unique to Tevinter.  In fact the sword is considered a symbol of mercy for the very reason of the Archon using it to give Andraste a quick death.  There's no reason why Orlais wouldn't have such a statue representing this moment.

[BlueMagitek]

So now Andraste is a Mage Lord who was also an OGB who fought not to free the oppressed or at least forge a nation free of Tevinter influence (hi Shartan) but to conquer Tevinter and install her own reign of terror.

Good that we're on the same page.

She was probably a Reaver too, imo, what with a Dragon named Andraste hanging out by the Urn.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

So now Andraste is a Mage Lord who was also an OGB who fought not to free the oppressed or at least forge a nation free of Tevinter influence (hi Shartan) but to conquer Tevinter and install her own reign of terror.

Good that we're on the same page.

She was probably a Reaver too, imo, what with a Dragon named Andraste hanging out by the Urn.

I raised only possibilities.  I'm aware that Andraste set out to free the slaves, but I think it's important to keep in mind that she did this as a conquerer out to topple one empire and set up another.  I said nothing whatsoever about her wanting to "install her own reign of terror," that's just you making sh*t up.

[BlueMagitek]

I think I'm onto something:

A village of people who were descendants of Andraste's original followers began Dragon Worship, something that Tevinter seemed to be into, despite the presence of the urn. They weren't committing heresy, they were actually just worshiping the forgotten side of Andraste : an OGB who drank Dragon's blood.

The Dragon was not Andraste, but she was one who wished to free Andraste's soul, bound to Thedas in the form of her ashes. If she had to deceive some of her lady's followers, then so be it.

Andraste's ashes heal blood magic not only because of the lyrium, but because as her blood was that of a Dragon's, she also had healing property! Look at the description for the Reaver, how it deals with the transformation of the body. From the Lyrium's influence, instead of causing harm to another, her ashes took the property of healing.

It's also established that important people in Thedas are connected to Dragons. Flemeth, Calahend, Maric, Maric's line, the Tevinter Magisters -- even Loghain had been saved by a Dragon devastating Orlais' forces in Fereldan at one point, if I remember correctly. The most important person in Thedas? Andraste.

Where do you find the great Dragonslayer? The blade Yusaris, gift of the Circle? You find it in the Mages' tower, something that had been in Fereldan for centures ; this is also the Blade of Mercy; it struck down Andraste despite her Dragon form, and the Tevinters hid it in a place no one would think to search for a powerful magical artifact; the blight of land that would one day be known as Redcliffe (a very moist book).

Finally, there is little more powerful than a Dragon Mage, and such a force would be needed to destroy Tevinter (aside from a Blight, but I'm fairly certain Andraste is not a darkspawn).

[lil yonce]

^Why would she need to drink dragon blood when her soul is already that of an Old God Dragon? In many defintions soul is the most basic sense is lifeforce and lifeforce is in the blood. Blood magic has a lot of importance in the DA universe-- using someone's blood/lifeforce for power as you noted. If Andraste has the "soul" of an Old God, she has the blood of an Old God. Its essence is her essence, and again, life essence is often in the blood.

[BlueMagitek]

Youth4Ever wrote...

^Why would she need to drink dragon blood when her soul is already that of an Old God Dragon? In many defintions soul is the most basic sense is lifeforce and lifeforce is in the blood. Blood magic has a lot of importance in the DA universe-- using someone's blood/lifeforce for power as you noted. If Andraste has the "soul" of an Old God, she has the blood of an Old God. Its essence is her essence, and again, life essence is often in the blood.

Because it seems the Soul is seperate from the Flesh in DA.  Spirits can hop bodies, souls seem to wander the fade.

Andraste wears the flesh of a human and needs blood from the still beating heart of a High Dragon.

[EmperorSahlertz]

How would you explain the opinion the Guardian have of the cult then? He seems to believe they are misguided, and indeed commiting heresy.

[BlueMagitek]

The Guardian does not recognize the Dragon as a servant of Andraste; and indeed, perhaps there is some reason for her soul to remain bound, trapped by the Lyrium cavern in her ashes.

[lil yonce]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

^Why would she need to drink dragon blood when her soul is already that of an Old God Dragon? In many defintions soul is the most basic sense is lifeforce and lifeforce is in the blood. Blood magic has a lot of importance in the DA universe-- using someone's blood/lifeforce for power as you noted. If Andraste has the "soul" of an Old God, she has the blood of an Old God. Its essence is her essence, and again, life essence is often in the blood.

Because it seems the Soul is seperate from the Flesh in DA.  Spirits can hop bodies, souls seem to wander the fade.

In the DA universe it becomes separate when you die, but I don't know that it means its separate in your body while you live. You can argue that it dwells within the body as a separate entity, but there is no "soul organ". You can't point to the soul in an x-ray or in a dissection etc. I'm inclined to believe soul is in the blood or in the flesh in general in the DA universe.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 avril 2013 - 01:40 .

[BlueMagitek]

The Guardian can sense Shale's soul despite the centuries, millenia of being buried in a lyrium shell.

And even if the soul is in the blood, she still has a human body. Just as the OGB that Morrigan may have birthed is still human. Perhaps it can change through magic or taint, hence the need for delicious, delicious dragon blood.

[lil yonce]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Guardian can sense Shale's soul despite the centuries, millenia of being buried in a lyrium shell.

But the body of the person who becomes a golem was never destroyed, or wholly so anyway.

And even if the soul is in the blood, she still has a human body. Just as the OGB that Morrigan may have birthed is still human. Perhaps it can change through magic or taint, hence the need for delicious, delicious dragon blood.

Or shapeshifting could be the gift of being an OGB. The Archdemon's essence can posses another body at death and from there shapeshift into a dragon. That darkspawn doesn't need to drink dragon blood to become a dragon or have special abilities.

[robertthebard]

Youth4Ever wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Guardian can sense Shale's soul despite the centuries, millenia of being buried in a lyrium shell.

But the body of the person who becomes a golem was never destroyed, or wholly so anyway.

And even if the soul is in the blood, she still has a human body. Just as the OGB that Morrigan may have birthed is still human. Perhaps it can change through magic or taint, hence the need for delicious, delicious dragon blood.

Or shapeshifting could be the gift of being an OGB. The Archdemon's essence can posses another body at death and from there shapeshift into a dragon. That darkspawn doesn't need to drink dragon blood to become a dragon or have special abilities.

So Abominations are just OGB's?  They can, after all, shift to their true form, and back to whatever is their host.  Wait, that can't be exactly true, can it, since Morrigan is a shapeshifter, and can teach the Warden how it works.  So if she's already an OGB, why does she want another one?  Which begs the question, just how old is Morrigan then?  It's been 400 years since the last blight, IIRC, so she looks damn good for her age, and the Warden in that Blight died slaying the Archdemon, so that doesn't add up to what we know about how OGBs are conceived.  So she must be really old then.

So it's far more likely that somebody has a theory about the nature of Flemeth/Andraste, and are reaching for whatever "facts" they can find to support it.  As much as I don't want to accept this, it's entirely possible that the Maker did just what we are told He did, heard Andraste sing, and fell in love with her.  It's not the first time in theological based myths that Gods have fallen for mortals, in spite of Thedas of course being separate from our own mythologies.  Given this, it's entirely possible that the displays of power in Andraste's war happened exactly the way we are told, the Maker did it.  What reason would Makerath have to lie in the temple?  He's already dead, and so is Andraste.  However, if she were a mage, it's likely he would know.  I'd discount the whole thing, if the Ashes had failed to heal Arl Eamon.  But they do, in fact, heal him.  This could simply be due to her being "touched" by the Maker.  No headcanon required, we just go with what the story gives us.