656 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

robertthebard wrote...

So it's far more likely that somebody has a theory about the nature of Flemeth/Andraste, and are reaching for whatever "facts" they can find to support it.  As much as I don't want to accept this, it's entirely possible that the Maker did just what we are told He did, heard Andraste sing, and fell in love with her.  It's not the first time in theological based myths that Gods have fallen for mortals, in spite of Thedas of course being separate from our own mythologies.  

It's also possible that this didn't happen. I didn't see anything in the ruins of the temple that proves that the Maker exists, or that Andraste genuinely heard the Maker; everything in the temple has an alternate explanation that doesn't involve the sadistic god of the Andrastian Chantry.

robertthebard wrote...

Given this, it's entirely possible that the displays of power in Andraste's war happened exactly the way we are told, the Maker did it.  

Or it's possible that this isn't the case. Not everyone thinks Andraste was altruistic. The elven Warden can address to Velanna that Andraste used their people for her own ends. Even after the events in the ruins of the temple, The Warden has a conversation with Leliana where they discuss Andraste, and The Warden can remain firm that Andraste wasn't divine.

robertthebard wrote...

What reason would Makerath have to lie in the temple?  He's already dead, and so is Andraste.  

I don't think the 'spirits' are literally the spirits of the people who died any more than the apparition of Jowan was the real Jowan.

robertthebard wrote...

However, if she were a mage, it's likely he would know.  

The Guardian never addresses whether Andraste was a mage or not, which is why people are speculating on the issue. He seems to believe in the Maker, so it's likely he believes that Andraste was blessed by the Maker.

robertthebard wrote...

I'd discount the whole thing, if the Ashes had failed to heal Arl Eamon.  But they do, in fact, heal him.  This could simply be due to her being "touched" by the Maker.  No headcanon required, we just go with what the story gives us.

The story tells us that a large wall of lyrium is effecting everything in the temple, including the ashes.

[Senya]

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

[Sir JK]

It's interesting when the same conversation seems to be held across several topics...

Not to be a bore or anything. But does it really matter?

Does anyone honestly believe that if Andraste was a mage/she had a fantastic beard/terrible singing voice/ did not really exist at all / was secretly male that it would change a thing?
She's dead. Has been for 1,2 thousand years. Who the actual woman was matters little. She's more legend than memory, what matters more is a good story and as far as the Chant of Light is concerned they already got one. Nor does it matter that they're not perfectly in line with the original disciples. Religions evolve. They're shaped by their living adherents.

Nothing short of irrefutable evidence is going to matter in regards to chantry theology. And pretty much nothing short of the Maker himself saying so will make them believe it is irrefutable.

[Heimdall]

Personally, I've never really understood people that go out of their way to try and disprove Chantry theology. I like that they leave it a bit ambiguous. I mean, I can understand disliking the institution, but I've never gotten the hate for Andrastrianism itself. Or perhaps its just a refusal to draw a distinction between the two.

[robertthebard]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

In fact, lyrium potions only "heal" mana.  So how would lyrium infused ashes heal anything?  Reading through the speculation presented, there are more plot holes than answers.  My time line is a bit rusty, but doesn't Flemeth predate Andraste?  If both are alive at the same time, how can one be the other?  Lots of speculation trying to make sense out of what we have been given, and some of it completely disregards what we have been given because it's inconvenient.  Such as lyrium being able to make ashes heal people.  I mean, if it was a simple as a healing potion, I could have cut the entirety of the Ashes quest chain out, and plopped a few healing potions down.

If I understand what's being presented, it's also being postulated that Andraste is the High Dragon outside the Temple?  If that were true, there should have been some serious repercussions to killing it, eh?  I know I've killed it in every game I've played, and no repercussions.  The fact is, there used to be dragons, and then they fell off the radar.  The reason this age is known as the Dragon Age is because they have made a resurgence.  Are all dragons Andraste?  After all, I'm sure that while we have only met the one cult, there must be more, some merely appeasing a dragon to keep it from destroying their homes.  We have reason to believe that we don't, or can't kill Flemeth, even before DA 2, Morrigan states that she's not sure Flemeth can be killed, but that it would buy her time to prepare.  We have nothing assuring us that killing the High Dragon means it's Andraste, and will be back later.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story tells us that a large wall of lyrium is effecting everything in the temple, including the ashes.

Who states this and are they an expert on lyrium? Plus if Andraste's ashes' healing effect is due to lyrium then why is there no mention of the Templars, Tranquil or dwarves having that ability?

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Personally, I've never really understood people that go out of their way to try and disprove Chantry theology.

It's a point of addressing that there's more than one side to the story; that the events in "The Urn of Sacred Ashes" isn't definitive proof of the divinity of Andraste or the Maker when we are provided with an alternative explanation for why the ashes have healing properties.

Lord Aesir wrote...

I like that they leave it a bit ambiguous. I mean, I can understand disliking the institution, but I've never gotten the hate for Andrastrianism itself. Or perhaps its just a refusal to draw a distinction between the two.

A religion that preaches that mages are cursed, gives templars dominion over mages by divine right, and teaches that the entire world must be converted to worship of the Maker in order to bring back the Maker has alienated some fans, especially when the latter seems to have lead to the Chantry invading the Dales with templars because the elves refused to convert to the human religion (according to Dalish history).

Modifié par LobselVith8, 23 avril 2013 - 04:46 .

[azarhal]

robertthebard wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

In fact, lyrium potions only "heal" mana.

lol

Raw lyrium kills mages on contact. Long term exposure to the substance (processed or not) cause psychosis, physical deformation and emotional instability. That's all from the codex. Lyrium doesn't heal, it's just raw power.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story tells us that a large wall of lyrium is effecting everything in the temple, including the ashes.

Who states this and are they an expert on lyrium?

The dwarven warrior Oghren mentions that he can sense an incredibly thick wall of lyrium having an effect on the entire temple, when Leliana comments on the ashes.

The Hierophant wrote...

Plus if Andraste's ashes' healing effect is due to lyrium then why is there no mention of the Templars, Tranquil or dwarves having that ability?

Probably because it has to do with the incredibly thick wall of lyrium that's right next to the temple and actively having an impact on everything in it, including the ashes.

[robertthebard]

azarhal wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

In fact, lyrium potions only "heal" mana.

lol

Raw lyrium kills mages on contact. Long term exposure to the substance (processed or not) cause psychosis, physical deformation and emotional instability. That's all from the codex. Lyrium doesn't heal, it's just raw power.

Hence the " " around heal?  Unless I miss what you're trying to say here, I was pointing out that lyrium in and of itself could not bestow healing properties on ashes.

[azarhal]

robertthebard wrote...

azarhal wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

In fact, lyrium potions only "heal" mana.

lol

Raw lyrium kills mages on contact. Long term exposure to the substance (processed or not) cause psychosis, physical deformation and emotional instability. That's all from the codex. Lyrium doesn't heal, it's just raw power.

Hence the " " around heal?  Unless I miss what you're trying to say here, I was pointing out that lyrium in and of itself could not bestow healing properties on ashes.

Ah, I missunderstood what you were saying (and I might have jumped a fun lines of texts too). Sorry. Although, lyrium potion "healing" mana is still funny as an "explanation"...

Modifié par azarhal, 23 avril 2013 - 05:23 .

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarven warrior Oghren mentions that he can sense an incredibly thick wall of lyrium having an effect on the entire temple, when Leliana comments on the ashes.

Can you post a link to his statement?

LobselVith8 wrote...

Probably because it has to do with the incredibly thick wall of lyrium that's right next to the temple and actively having an impact on everything in it, including the ashes.

Templars ingest dilluted lyrium to the point of addiction, while Dwarves depending on their caste, and Tranquil handle lyrium daily. I doubt constant exposure to lyrium grants healing abilities as the above stated groups would have it's effect mentioned to various degrees in their codices.

[robertthebard]

azarhal wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

azarhal wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

It tells us that it is [i]possibly[/if] affecting everything in the temple, which many people have trouble squaring with the specific events happening in the temple as mentioned previously in the thread. For example, lyrium has never been shown to have healing powers.

In fact, lyrium potions only "heal" mana.

lol

Raw lyrium kills mages on contact. Long term exposure to the substance (processed or not) cause psychosis, physical deformation and emotional instability. That's all from the codex. Lyrium doesn't heal, it's just raw power.

Hence the " " around heal?  Unless I miss what you're trying to say here, I was pointing out that lyrium in and of itself could not bestow healing properties on ashes.

Ah, I missunderstood what you were saying (and I might have jumped a fun lines of texts too). Sorry. Although, lyrium potion "healing" mana is still funny as an "explanation"...

I was going for ironic, but I'll take funny instead.

[azarhal]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarven warrior Oghren mentions that he can sense an incredibly thick wall of lyrium having an effect on the entire temple, when Leliana comments on the ashes.

Can you post a link to his statement?

I'm not LobselVith8, but you can find the Leliana/Oghren dialog on this page of the wiki.

• Leliana: I never dreamed I would ever lay my eyes on the Urn of Sacred Ashes... I... I have no words to express--
• Oghren: (Grunts) Don't get your knickers in a twist, sweet cheeks. I don't know how mystical this Urn really is.
• Oghren: The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer
  than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this
  temple and everything in it.

How much Oghren knows about lyrium is debatable, he's from the Warrior cast. Also, we have 0 evidence of lyrium bestowing specific powers all by itself. It does allow Templars to use magical abilities and boost spells. So theorically, it could have increaced the potency of the ashes.

New theory: Andraste was burned with Elfrood... It could explain the ashes base healing properties add some lyrium to boost the effect and you get miracle ashes.

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The dwarven warrior Oghren mentions that he can sense an incredibly thick wall of lyrium having an effect on the entire temple, when Leliana comments on the ashes.

Can you post a link to his statement?

It's the scene that happens when The Warden, Leliana, and Oghren approach the Urn. I have the PS3, so I don't have a PC where I can record the scene for you, unfortunately. However, I do have the dialogue that's said in the scene if you're curious:

Leliana: "I never dreamed I would ever lay my eyes on the Urn of Sacred Ashes... I... I have no words to express"

Oghren: "(Grunts) Don't get your knickers in a twist, sweet cheeks. I don't know how mystical this Urn really is. The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."

The Hierophant wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Probably because it has to do with the incredibly thick wall of lyrium that's right next to the temple and actively having an impact on everything in it, including the ashes.

Templars ingest dilluted lyrium to the point of addiction, while Dwarves depending on their caste, and Tranquil handle lyrium daily. I doubt constant exposure to lyrium grants healing abilities as the above stated groups would have it's effect mentioned to various degrees in their codices.

Oghren's statement seems to suggest that he believes the the properties of the ashes - as well as some aspects of the ruins of the temple - are the result of the thick wall of lyrium that the temple is built next to.

[Bleachrude]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Personally, I've never really understood people that go out of their way to try and disprove Chantry theology. I like that they leave it a bit ambiguous. I mean, I can understand disliking the institution, but I've never gotten the hate for Andrastrianism itself. Or perhaps its just a refusal to draw a distinction between the two.

It's because so many believe that wihout the chantry, conditions in Thedas would be better for the majority of the people.

Of course, this ignores what the game tells us happens when mages are left to their own devices, namely Tevinter.

Same thing with blood magic.

People believe that without the chantry, blood magic would not be seen as evil as it is currently. Of course, this ignores Anders and the history/use of blood magic generally.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a point of addressing that there's more than one side to the story; that the events in "The Urn of Sacred Ashes" isn't definitive proof of the divinity of Andraste or the Maker when we are provided with an alternative explanation for why the ashes have healing properties.

My issue mostly comes when those alternative explanations are claimed as proof that the ashes are not divine.  I like ambiguity.

A religion that preaches that mages are cursed, gives templars dominion over mages by divine right, and teaches that the entire world must be converted to worship of the Maker in order to bring back the Maker has alienated some fans, especially when the latter seems to have lead to the Chantry invading the Dales with templars because the elves refused to convert to the human religion (according to Dalish history).

You've sort of proven my point.  The Chantry preaches that mages need to be locked away.  All the Chant of Andrastrianism says on the subject is "Magic must serve man and never rule over him", which could be interpreted as little more than a warning against the corruptions of power.  I'm unsure whether or not the Chant or the Chantry mentions converting the world, but I seem to remember it having something to do with the founding of the Chantry in Orlais, perhaps part of an imperial justification for conquest.  Hence why most of my protagonists have turned into heretical Andrastrians rather than anti-Andrastrians.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Oghren is a drunkard with no knowledge of how Lyrium actually works, since he is of the warrior caste... Yet he is the source you pledge your trust in?

[The Hierophant]

My problem with Oghren's statement is that it assumes that he's an expert on lyrium despite his caste being a warrior, and a chronically intoxicated one at that. If the lore states that all dwarves are experts on lyrium so be it, but character statements have been shown to be fallible in the past.

[Senya]

^^

I'd trust his word on beserkers, warriors, ale, and Dwarven culture. But not really on lyrium or magic given he has zero experience with enchantment.

[The Hierophant]

ninja'd 

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a point of addressing that there's more than one side to the story; that the events in "The Urn of Sacred Ashes" isn't definitive proof of the divinity of Andraste or the Maker when we are provided with an alternative explanation for why the ashes have healing properties.

My issue mostly comes when those alternative explanations are claimed as proof that the ashes are not divine.  I like ambiguity.

It's proof that the ashes aren't indisputable proof of divinity.

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A religion that preaches that mages are cursed, gives templars dominion over mages by divine right, and teaches that the entire world must be converted to worship of the Maker in order to bring back the Maker has alienated some fans, especially when the latter seems to have lead to the Chantry invading the Dales with templars because the elves refused to convert to the human religion (according to Dalish history). 

You've sort of proven my point.  The Chantry preaches that mages need to be locked away.  All the Chant of Andrastrianism says on the subject is "Magic must serve man and never rule over him", which could be interpreted as little more than a warning against the corruptions of power.  I'm unsure whether or not the Chant or the Chantry mentions converting the world, but I seem to remember it having something to do with the founding of the Chantry in Orlais, perhaps part of an imperial justification for conquest.  Hence why most of my protagonists have turned into heretical Andrastrians rather than anti-Andrastrians. 

The Chantry of Andraste is based on Drakon's specific Cult of Andraste views; there were, apparently, many Cults of Andraste at the time.

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste or the Andrastian faith. I can't really find a reason to like the Chantry or their religious teachings, especially as a mage protagonist, which is why I played my Surana Warden as someone who condemned the Chantry for invading the homeland of his people at Ostagar and expressed to Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker.

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's proof that the ashes aren't indisputable proof of divinity.

That I can agree with.

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry of Andraste is based on Drakon's specific Cult of Andraste views; there were, apparently, many Cults of Andraste at the time.

I'm not a fan of the Chantry of Andraste or the Andrastian faith. I can't really find a reason to like the Chantry or their religious teachings, especially as a mage protagonist, which is why I played my Surana Warden as someone who condemned the Chantry for invading the homeland of his people at Ostagar and expressed to Justice that he didn't believe in the Maker.

Fair enough.  My Mage agrees the notion that a Mage's power can be corrupting and badly abused, as well as notions of charity implied to be in the chant throughout the games.  He'd rather change the Chantry than destroy it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oghren is a drunkard with no knowledge of how Lyrium actually works, since he is of the warrior caste... Yet he is the source you pledge your trust in?

Oghren is a dwarf of Orzammar who can literally sense the purity of the lyrium in the walls, and explicitly addresses that he notices how the lyrium is effecting everything in the temple. He's certainly more of an expert on lyrium than anyone else in the moiety crew with The Warden.

You're welcome to think the ashes are evidence of divinity; however, the developers added this dialogue to address this isn't indisputable fact, since there's an alternate explanation for the healing properties that the ashes possess. I see no reason to discredit Oghren when the entire reason for his dialogue (according to the developers) was to point out that the ashes may not be evidence of divinity.