656 réponses à ce sujet

[Ianamus]

It's entirely possible that the "ashes" are not Andraste's ashes at all, that they are a special kind of healing powder, or that the original ashes were given healing properties by a mage. For all we know whoever put them there could have just poured an extremely potent health potion over them.

It's also possible that the Maker actually exists and that they are blessed. Bioware deliberately made it vague whether or not they are of divine origin, so arguing over it isn't really going to get you anywhere closer to the "truth". I have a feeling even Bioware themselves don't know if the Maker exists or not.

Modifié par EJ107, 23 avril 2013 - 07:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

No one is disputing that there were Lyrium in the walls. We are questioning Oghrens idea that it might be the sourdce behind the Temple's power. Since Oghren has absolutely no idea about the workings of Lyrium, and all that he's got going for him, is the ability to sense it, I would hesitate with using him as a reliable source on the workings of Lyrium.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

No one is disputing that there were Lyrium in the walls. We are questioning Oghrens idea that it might be the sourdce behind the Temple's power. Since Oghren has absolutely no idea about the workings of Lyrium, and all that he's got going for him, is the ability to sense it, I would hesitate with using him as a reliable source on the workings of Lyrium.

The developers already admitted that the point of Oghren's dialogue was to provide an alternative explanation for the healing properties of the ashes, so I'm not sure why this is even up for debate. Oghren is a dwarf from Orzammar, he can sense the lyrium in the walls, and he explicitly notes how the purity of the lyrium is effecting everything in the temple - including the ashes. It's what establishes the ambiguity of the events that unfold in the temple. He's the most reliable source on lyrium among The Warden's companions.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just because Oghren is wrong, does not confirm the divinity of the Ashes. There could be any number of magical reasons for the Ashes to hold the power they do. However, since Lyrium has not ever had the influence Oghren suggest it holds in the Temple, we are just hesitant to agree with Oghren in particular.
And I honestly think that Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar, actually hold more knowledge about Lyrium in particular than Oghren. WHile Oghren might be able to feel it, he knows squat about it.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because Oghren is wrong, does not confirm the divinity of the Ashes. There could be any number of magical reasons for the Ashes to hold the power they do. However, since Lyrium has not ever had the influence Oghren suggest it holds in the Temple, we are just hesitant to agree with Oghren in particular.

The fact that Oghren can actually sense the lyrium in the walls, as well as their purity, makes me question why you think he's wrong.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I honestly think that Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar, actually hold more knowledge about Lyrium in particular than Oghren. WHile Oghren might be able to feel it, he knows squat about it.

Why? We know from the codex: "The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle." As the codex would indicate, lyrium is something that Oghren would have some exposure to throughout his life living in the Great Thaig of Orzammar, while it's strictly regulated to Circle mages like Senior Enchanter Wynne.

Oghren has been around lyrium all his life as a dwarf of Orzammar, while Alistair notes that he hasn't taken lyrium (which is why he wonders if it actually improves the abilities of a templar), and Morrigan is an apostate who would likely have a great deal of difficulty acquiring lyrium when it's so strictly controlled by the Chantry (which is the problem Merrill ran into).

[Asdrubael Vect]

there is many cults of Andraste and many versions of Chant of Light what was formed after Andraste execution

and Tevinter Archont Hessarian with Althus Magisters see Andraste in Fade and accepted Maker even before Orlais and Dracon with his Orlais Chantry

Alistar(if Fionna his mother) have Elven blood and some dragon blood in his veins and tait blood, so this is why he not really need of Lyrium

and mages i think, cant sense so much Lyrium(they can not recognize it because they never felt it so much before) in places with so strong connection with Fade and demons..Ogren-dwarf who not have dreams, connection with fade and he actually can sense Lyrium and hear "Lyrium song"

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 23 avril 2013 - 08:16 .

[TEWR]

Look here, another statue of Andraste with fire.

She's still not wielding fire. Yes, she's being bathed by it (and she's naked, for some reason, when that's taboo) but that's representative of her being burned at the stake in Minrathous.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I have never done such thing. What I did was point out that history and logic suggest that Andraste was not a mage.

History written by the Chantry Drakon established (which was one of many cults devoted to Andraste), who wouldn't want that information to be released lest their chokehold on Mages be weakened.

You can argue whether Andraste being a Mage is good or bad for society's drive to move forward scientifically, but I find that a weak argument as the people that actually control progress (the Chantry) are the ones who could move forward, if they wished to.

But they don't.

Though if we took Prosper's inclination that the reward he was to receive from Salit would be blackpowder recipes or dreadnought plans and factored in the rumors he was working directly for Empress Celene, it seems Celene is smart enough to realize society must advance technologically.

azarhal wrote...

I read a theory that suggest the Guardian is Havard.

Doubtful, as you can converse directly with Havard's spirit and he's beardless. And they sound different. I'd say the Guardian is simply Kolgrim's forefather from those long days past.

They look kinda similar.

Yes, trying to defeat the most powerful empire in recorded history with a group of unwashed barbarians

Smell is one hell of a weapon.

Beyond that, the empire has been substantially weakened. Land is tainted, leading to reduced resources for their armies. Their armies were almost broken due to the Darkspawn, which means there's a better chance of her forces winning victories.

IIRC, Tevinter abandoned certain areas to the Blight in that time to consolidate their strength, which means Andraste could've launched a surprise attack.

And beyond that, the fact that Elves saw this as a golden opportunity -- the enemy of my enemy is my friend -- also helped, as Tevinter was now facing a war on two fronts.

whose weaponry largely consisted of leather vests and iron weapons

Their weaponry and armor was more steel, wood, and whatnot.

Remember, the barbarians of Ferelden that resided in Vigil's Keep once traded with the Dwarves. And that fortress was around specifically to fight back the Tevinter forces (and the Avvar did indeed win).

rather than attempt to use her amazing powers to take control of said
empire and use its already existing infrastructure to improve life for
non-mages if that is what she wished.

Not feasible. As powerful as she may have been, those reforms would've meant that the entire Senate would've united against her, assuming the rest of the Magisters were all corrupt douchebags and there weren't any decent folks back then.

Beyond that, her powers only seemed to come into her control after she fled back to Ferelden. 

Mage Andraste, who could have become Archon, chose to go to the most
uncivilized area in the continent? I find that hard to believe.

She fled the Imperium and ran to Ferelden. It was only in Ferelden that she decided to fight back, and she gathered what resources she could.

It wasn't "I'll go here and take the barbarians with me!"

It was "I've fled the Imperium, but I have nowhere left to go. And though I'm free, many others suffer. I shall fight for them!" and then she went to the barbarians and managed to get them.

In desperate times, you make use of what you can. Like how Stannis got the more savage northmen to agree to fight for him (thanks to Jon Snow's advice) in order to bolster his forces in his march to fight the Boltons. At that time, he only had his own forces which wouldn't have been enough.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 23 avril 2013 - 08:33 .

[MisterJB]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
History written by the Chantry Drakon established, who wouldn't want that information to be released lest their chokehold on Mages be weakened.

If Andraste had been a mage, the entire mindset regarding magic would be different. Besides, I'm not speaking of the Chantry claiming she spoke to the Maker but of Andraste choosing to wage a military campaign which would have reduced her chances of accomplishing her goal and even assure the deaths of the very people she seemed to wish to protect while there would be other options available had she been a mage.
Unless you mean to call into question Andraste's rebellion.

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And I honestly think that Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar, actually hold more knowledge about Lyrium in particular than Oghren. WHile Oghren might be able to feel it, he knows squat about it.

Morrigain calls shenanigans on the whole thing, and Wynne is a believer. I'm not sure what they would add. Wynne wants it to be true, so she wouldn't doub it. Morragain would believe it's BS no matter what.

If Andraste had been a mage, the entire mindset regarding magic would be different. Besides, I'm not speaking of the Chantry claiming she spoke to the Maker but of Andraste choosing to wage a military campaign which would have reduced her chances of accomplishing her goal and even assure the deaths of the very people she seemed to wish to protect while there would be other options available had she been a mage.

Andraste died, and her followers were left to face the Imperium. It took a very long time for the Chantry to break and for Tevinter to actually convert. In between those periods, the mundanes could easily have taken over the cult of the Maker.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 avril 2013 - 08:26 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because Oghren is wrong, does not confirm the divinity of the Ashes. There could be any number of magical reasons for the Ashes to hold the power they do. However, since Lyrium has not ever had the influence Oghren suggest it holds in the Temple, we are just hesitant to agree with Oghren in particular.
And I honestly think that Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar, actually hold more knowledge about Lyrium in particular than Oghren. WHile Oghren might be able to feel it, he knows squat about it.

I have to agree with Lobsel here. There is no proof at all that Oghren is wrong. He senses lyrium, all dwarves in Orzammar can sense it. They're around it all the time. The wanderers who followed the lyrium's "voice" came upon a darkspawn raiding party that would've taken Orzammar by surprise, they sensed lyrium. The dwarves have more experience with lyrium than the Chantry does, as they've been dealing with it for hundreds of years BEFORE the Chantry was founded, as they were allies and trade partners with Tevinter...who bought lyrium from the dwarves.

There's no proof that the lyrium is the only thing that affected the ashes. But it cannot be discounted as a contributing factor.

[The Elder King]

Youth4Ever wrote...


I also said-- perhaps that after other evidence of Andraste's life surfaces or hints as to what Flemeth is, we might be expected to but the pieces together ourselves, or that later, we may be able to look back on DAO and DA2 and think, "I see now they were going in this direction, but didn't get it then because I just didn't have all the pieces or the right context to put it together or I just didn't thikn of it that way."

The only thing that could relate Flemeth to Andraste, IF we'll have hints or confirmations about this theory, if the Haven cult, because they believed that Andraste could turn into a dragon and Flemeth is a shifter. Still, as the situation is now, you have to stretch this situation to have a real hint.

edit: and what you said in your post about Flemeth's phrase, but I'll address later.

How do you know that Fade spirits aren't human or elven spirts to begin with? Andrastians believe you wander the Fade/Beyond after death-- just like spirits wander around the Fade-- if you aren't brought to the Maker's side.

Another verse stricken from the Chant says the Maker's first children were not the Spirits but the Old Gods were.
So what are Spirits really? Perhaps souls that have once forgotten they were people they've been dead so long?

And if that is not the case, you don't believe the spirit of a powerful mage, perhaps a dreamer, or the spirit of an OGB could possess someone if they choose?

Indeed, the knowledge about spirits and demons aren't that much, Humans, elves, and spirits themselves believe that they are different species, but it could be false. As you said, spirits might have forgotten who they were, though I have to say that I find it unlikely.
I say that this theory is possible, but for the knowledge we have, I believe that spirits and demons are different species from mortals. In the case is truth, though, it could help a lot the Flemeth=Andraste theory.
As for powerful mages possessing someone, I don't see why it should be possible (if your theory about spirits and demons being elven and human spirits is not true). I wouldn't say it's surely impossible, since we don't know for sure what happens after death, but I'll believe on this only if it's shown in a DA product.

Flemeth doesn't tell Morrigan everything. She raised her to believe in certain things and discount a litany other ideas. She's grooming her for a specific purpose that is probably best serverd by her not knowing the whole truth and having the arrogant personality to believe she does.

I did say that Flemeth could be lying. Or Morrigan could be lying.
Still, this is the (scarce) info we have. As long as we don't know more about Flemeth, she could be everything.

They've worshipped in isolation for centuries. They were the only people who knew the urn actually exisisted. They follow some very old traditions and beliefs on the mountain and even have a mage as their leader. They are so fervent in belief they go overboard in some areas of their faith, but I wouldn't discount entirely everything they practiced or believed in. They have a library with forgotten books, forgotten verses etc. I won't dismiss them completely.

I remember that they started worshipping dragons after Kolgrim's ancestors started this propaganda, so it depends on the reason why they started this worship. I'd like to know more about why they started woshipping a dragon, and their lore in general.
Anyway, I never said Andraste couldn't be a dragon, I'm discussing the theory Flemeth=Andraste. Even if Andraste was able to be a dragon (possible if she was a mage, and I already said my stance on this topic in this thread) it woudn't mean that she's Flemeth, though it'd be a  good hint for this theory.

I like the line, "You are required to do nothing least of all believe."  Faith is the hardest thing to have and IMO faith is the basis of Andraste's character and its the basis of Andrastianism. Faith and what you believe-- even in a more mundane sense-- are the first things Flemeth starts talking about.

I'd say this is a way to interpretate Flemeth's phrase, since believing in something/someone doesn't necessarily means faith, but it's fair interpretation, that could relate the two characters. As the situation is now, is the only real thing (again, in my opinion) that could  really relate Andraste to Flemeth. I forgot about the phrase, thank you for reminding it to me:)

Its more to do with how you look at what has been presented and how you make connections going forward. 

The problem is that what it was presented is scarce at best, and is a lot related too the hints or evidences of another theory, the one about Andraste being a mage, which I already said that the hints or evidences about Andraste couldn't objectively lead to either Andraste=mage or Andraste=non-mage to be at advantage to each other.
Flemeth=Andraste is based on a lot of assumptions, in my opinion, and if Andraste=mage is going to be proven wrong, it would completely disprove the former theory.
I'll start thinking that this theory is possible in the case that Andraste is confirmed to be a mage. I'd still see no reason to make those two character as the same, and it could end with a badly written story
. Though it could be that they'll pull off a good story for this, and I'll like it. I'm not that optimistic if they'll ever go to that route, but I'd like to be surprised.

Modifié par hhh89, 23 avril 2013 - 09:12 .

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because Oghren is wrong, does not confirm the divinity of the Ashes. There could be any number of magical reasons for the Ashes to hold the power they do. However, since Lyrium has not ever had the influence Oghren suggest it holds in the Temple, we are just hesitant to agree with Oghren in particular.

The fact that Oghren can actually sense the lyrium in the walls, as well as their purity, makes me question why you think he's wrong.

I didn't realize that the devs had gone on record as saying that was the purpose of Oghren's dialogue.  I still find it a little hard to swallow that lyrium could be the explanation for the ashes randomly having such potent curative properties that they can literally heal anything without any negative consequences...not when lyrium has been shown repeatedly to be a hugely destructive element.  But I do concede your point that however untenable the explanation is, it's purpose is to maintain the idea that the Gauntlet isn't de facto proof of Chantry doctrine.

I just wish they'd written it somewhat better.  I seriously have a hard time buying that lyrium, known for its guaranteed ability to drive people insane or kill them, could make ashes heal.

All that aside, I'm completely puzzled as to why people think Oghren wouldn't know anything about lyrium.  He's a dwarf for cripe's sake.  He doesn't have to be a personal expert on lyrium itself to be much more knowledgeable about it than people who aren't dwarves, just because lyrium is HIS PEOPLE'S stock in trade.  Any dwarf that lived his whole life in Orzammar is going to know much more about lyrium than the average non-dwarf. 

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 10:12 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
History written by the Chantry Drakon established, who wouldn't want that information to be released lest their chokehold on Mages be weakened.

If Andraste had been a mage, the entire mindset regarding magic would be different. Besides, I'm not speaking of the Chantry claiming she spoke to the Maker but of Andraste choosing to wage a military campaign which would have reduced her chances of accomplishing her goal and even assure the deaths of the very people she seemed to wish to protect while there would be other options available had she been a mage.
Unless you mean to call into question Andraste's rebellion.

One only has to take a basic look at the history of Christendom--the actual history--and compare that with church doctrines, to see that this is blatantly untrue.  The Chantry didn't come into existence until long after Andraste's death, and it was one of many Andrastian cults of the period--something else that mirrors the earliest Christian period: there were MANY Christian sects, many of which held to wildly disparate doctrines from one another, and that held beliefs completely alien to what is considered accepted doctrine today: in point of fact some beliefs that are naively and blindly accepted as having always been exactly what Christianity has always taught were considered heretical, even blasphemous by various Christian groups hundreds of years ago, and some of the beliefs held by certain Christian sects in the first decades following the execution of Christ, would be considered wholly alien and blasphemous today. 

My point being, it is well within the bonds of believability that there were early Andrastian sects that acknowledged and taught that Andraste was a mage, and that others decided the very idea was detrimental to what they wanted their form of Andrastianism to be about...and the cult that became the mainstream Chantry happened to be a cult that found the idea of Andraste being a mage too inconvenient.  This isn't something I'm twisting about to match my theory, either.  The history of the Chantry as it has been presented to us directly correlates to the history of Christianity, in particular the doctrinal battles between gnostic sects and what eventually became the Catholic church, which makes it perfectly reasonable to speculate that Andraste might have been a mage and the Chantry of the present day buried that aspect of Andraste's life for its own purposes.

A completely random aside: Andraste's most famous maxim, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," makes much more sense to have come from a mage than a non-mage.  Why would a non-mage, fighting against a tyrannical mage regime, go out of her way to stress that magic is not inherently evil, but is meant to be used in service to humanity and not as a tool of enslavement, when she could have simply dismissed magic as evil, as one might expect a non-mage fighting against a magocracy, to do?

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 11:02 .

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

A completely random aside: Andraste's most famous maxim, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," makes much more sense to have come from a mage than a non-mage.  Why would a non-mage, fighting against a tyrannical mage regime, go out of her way to stress that magic is not inherently evil, but is meant to be used in service to humanity and not as a tool of enslavement, when she could have simply dismissed magic as evil, as one might expect a non-mage fighting against a magocracy, to do?

Andraste doesn't have to be a mage to reach that conclusion as she probably witnessed it's more positive uses like healing spells, or probably recruited mages to her cause who's abilities were instrumental to her victories etc.

[EmperorSahlertz]

SInce when does being able to sense Lyrium equal having a phd in freakin "Lyrium and its inner workings"?? Oghren might be able to sense the presence of Lyrium as we can sense a gust of wind. But sensing wind doesn't make us super hardcore wind professors, same with Oghren, that he have a racial ability to sense Lyrium, DOES NOT make him know everyhting there is to know about Lyrium. On the other hand, Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar have had reason to study Lyrium during their life, and as such they might have some insight. Oghren is a grunt, a warrior, and a drunkard to boot. He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works, and as such the only useful thing in that whole line of his, is that there is indeed Lyrium in the mountains around the Temple.

[In Exile]

Silfren wrote...
I didn't realize that the devs had gone on record as saying that was the purpose of Oghren's dialogue.  I still find it a little hard to swallow that lyrium could be the explanation for the ashes randomly having such potent curative properties that they can literally heal anything without any negative consequences...not when lyrium has been shown repeatedly to be a hugely destructive element.  But I do concede your point that however untenable the explanation is, it's purpose is to maintain the idea that the Gauntlet isn't de facto proof of Chantry doctrine.

I can't speak to a specific statement about Oghren, but pre-release the devs and writters were very open about wanting to create a world were the status of divinity was uncertain. Anything that you read about, but don't see, should be taken as much more like a myth than truth.

All that aside, I'm completely puzzled as to why people think Oghren wouldn't know anything about lyrium.  He's a dwarf for cripe's sake.  He doesn't have to be a personal expert on lyrium itself to be much more knowledgeable about it than people who aren't dwarves, just because lyrium is HIS PEOPLE'S stock in trade.  Any dwarf that lived his whole life in Orzammar is going to know much more about lyrium than the average non-dwarf. 

Well, Oghren is a bit of an idiot. Just because he's from an area that is the source of the lyrium trade doesn't mean he knows much about.  He's warrior caste. I'm totally with people on Oghren being right re: lyrium, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspcious of Oghren's knowledge of anything that isn't stabbing something in the throat.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 avril 2013 - 11:17 .

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

A completely random aside: Andraste's most famous maxim, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," makes much more sense to have come from a mage than a non-mage.  Why would a non-mage, fighting against a tyrannical mage regime, go out of her way to stress that magic is not inherently evil, but is meant to be used in service to humanity and not as a tool of enslavement, when she could have simply dismissed magic as evil, as one might expect a non-mage fighting against a magocracy, to do?

Andraste doesn't have to be a mage to reach that conclusion as she probably witnessed it's more positive uses like healing spells, or probably recruited mages to her cause who's abilities were instrumental to her victories etc.

I agree that she doesn't, but in light of the society she was fighting against, I do think that it is much more likely that such a statement would come from a mage than a non-mage.  That's all I meant. I'm certainly not using it as evidence of anything--I just personally see it as being something more likely to be said by an actual mage than not, under the circumstances.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SInce when does being able to sense Lyrium equal having a phd in freakin "Lyrium and its inner workings"?? Oghren might be able to sense the presence of Lyrium as we can sense a gust of wind. But sensing wind doesn't make us super hardcore wind professors, same with Oghren, that he have a racial ability to sense Lyrium, DOES NOT make him know everyhting there is to know about Lyrium. On the other hand, Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar have had reason to study Lyrium during their life, and as such they might have some insight. Oghren is a grunt, a warrior, and a drunkard to boot. He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works, and as such the only useful thing in that whole line of his, is that there is indeed Lyrium in the mountains around the Temple.

How is it that you can speak with such certainty that Oghren doesn't know anything about lyirum?  Do you have any lore-based evidence to indicate such? Because "He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works," is a rather strong statement to go making, as if you have concrete evidence of such.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Well, Oghren is a bit of an idiot. Just because he's from an area that is the source of the lyrium trade doesn't mean he knows much about.  He's warrior caste. I'm totally with people on Oghren being right re: lyrium, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be suspcious of Oghren's knowledge of anything that isn't stabbing something in the throat.

Oghren's a drunk by the time we meet him in Origins, but it wasn't always the case; at one point he was respected as one of the finest warriors of his generation.  I'm not trying to suggest that Oghren is the world's premier expert on lyrium, but I really don't believe that he wouldn't know quite a lot about it, since it's the world's most valuable substance and what the dwarves are known for.  I really would expect a dwarf who spent his entire life in Orzammar to know a great deal about the dwarves' single most important contribution to the surface world.  How could he not, honestly? 

But quite aside from that, don't forget that he was married to a woman of the Smith Caste.  She would know a great deal about lyrium; I'd expect Oghren to be fairly knowledgeable just from that exposure if nothing else.

[BlueMagitek]

The Dwarves are heavily caste based, while a Warrior may have better knowledge of lyrium than a human or an elf, they wouldn't be experts on the subject.

For example, you can probably explain what electricity is, but you aren't an expert on it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SInce when does being able to sense Lyrium equal having a phd in freakin "Lyrium and its inner workings"?? Oghren might be able to sense the presence of Lyrium as we can sense a gust of wind. But sensing wind doesn't make us super hardcore wind professors, same with Oghren, that he have a racial ability to sense Lyrium, DOES NOT make him know everyhting there is to know about Lyrium. On the other hand, Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar have had reason to study Lyrium during their life, and as such they might have some insight. Oghren is a grunt, a warrior, and a drunkard to boot. He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works, and as such the only useful thing in that whole line of his, is that there is indeed Lyrium in the mountains around the Temple.

How is it that you can speak with such certainty that Oghren doesn't know anything about lyirum?  Do you have any lore-based evidence to indicate such? Because "He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works," is a rather strong statement to go making, as if you have concrete evidence of such.

THe mere fact that he is warrior-caste, and not smith-caste or miner-caste, should be all the evidence you need. THe warriors of Orzammar concern themselves with one thing: being warriors. Sure they might know some common knowledge (by dwarven standards anyway) facts about Lyrium, but they have no real experience with it. The miners and the smiths are the ones who really know stuff about Lyrium, and last I checked Oghren is neither.

[robertthebard]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

A completely random aside: Andraste's most famous maxim, "Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him," makes much more sense to have come from a mage than a non-mage.  Why would a non-mage, fighting against a tyrannical mage regime, go out of her way to stress that magic is not inherently evil, but is meant to be used in service to humanity and not as a tool of enslavement, when she could have simply dismissed magic as evil, as one might expect a non-mage fighting against a magocracy, to do?

Andraste doesn't have to be a mage to reach that conclusion as she probably witnessed it's more positive uses like healing spells, or probably recruited mages to her cause who's abilities were instrumental to her victories etc.

I agree that she doesn't, but in light of the society she was fighting against, I do think that it is much more likely that such a statement would come from a mage than a non-mage.  That's all I meant. I'm certainly not using it as evidence of anything--I just personally see it as being something more likely to be said by an actual mage than not, under the circumstances.

Alternatively, since the Tenvinter Imperium is ruled by mages, she's speaking out about that?  Since they very literally used magic to rule over man.

[Silfren]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dwarves are heavily caste based, while a Warrior may have better knowledge of lyrium than a human or an elf, they wouldn't be experts on the subject.

For example, you can probably explain what electricity is, but you aren't an expert on it.

What the hell, did people just leave their reading comprehensions at the door for this conversation....!?

Here's my quote, in full:

All that aside, I'm completely puzzled as to why people think Oghren wouldn't know anything about lyrium.  He's a dwarf for cripe's sake.  He doesn't have to be a personal expert on lyrium itself to be much more knowledgeable about it than people who aren't dwarves, just because lyrium is HIS PEOPLE'S stock in trade.  Any dwarf that lived his whole life in Orzammar is going to know much more about lyrium than the average non-dwarf. 

I didn't say he was a Ph.D level expert.  I just don't believe that being able to sense lyrium would be the total extent of his knowledge.  Given the importance of lyrium to the dwarves--they mine it, they use the vast majority of it for themselves and sell only a tiny percentage to the surface--how is it that any dwarf of born and raised in Orzammar wouldn't know a fair bit about lyrium?

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 11:46 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The same way that many of us probably don't know all that much about electricity, sewer-network, computing and any number of other important day-to-day parts of our lives.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 23 avril 2013 - 11:46 .