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[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The same way that many of us probably don't know all that much about electricity, sewer-network, computing and any number of other important day-to-day parts of our lives.

This isn't a good comparison because of the differences in our modern society to the one presented us in Orzammar, and the fact that lyrium's singular importance is more immediate and obvious than things like electricity and computer networking that are such most of us can take them for granted to the point where they are invisible until they are gone.  But there's no point in going on at length to explain this to someone like yourself who is so determined to be obtuse you'd lecture me on how the sky is really pink if I told you it was blue.

The child who grows up in a mining community, whose parents are miners, is going to know a lot about mining even if she herself spends her time playing chess and is going to school to be an optometrist.  Figure it out.

Modifié par Silfren, 23 avril 2013 - 11:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, Oghrens parents weren't miners... They were warriors... Caste system you know...

[BlueMagitek]

Silfren wrote...

What the hell, did people just leave their reading comprehensions at the door for this conversation....!?

Here's my quote, in full:

All that aside, I'm completely puzzled as to why people think Oghren wouldn't know anything about lyrium.  He's a dwarf for cripe's sake.  He doesn't have to be a personal expert on lyrium itself to be much more knowledgeable about it than people who aren't dwarves, just because lyrium is HIS PEOPLE'S stock in trade.  Any dwarf that lived his whole life in Orzammar is going to know much more about lyrium than the average non-dwarf. 

I didn't say he was a Ph.D level expert.  I just don't believe that being able to sense lyrium would be the total extent of his knowledge.  Given the importance of lyrium to the dwarves--they mine it, they use the vast majority of it for themselves and sell only a tiny percentage to the surface--how is it that any dwarf of born and raised in Orzammar wouldn't know a fair bit about lyrium?

I said he knew more about lyrium than your average overworlder. 

However, I'm asking you, why aren't you more knowledgable on electricity?  Using it cannot be the total extent of your knowledge.  Given the importance of electricity to humans -- they harvest it, they use it for the vast majority of themselves and just waste the rest -- how is it that any human born in a country with electricity wouldn't know a fair bit about electricity?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

SInce when does being able to sense Lyrium equal having a phd in freakin "Lyrium and its inner workings"?? Oghren might be able to sense the presence of Lyrium as we can sense a gust of wind. But sensing wind doesn't make us super hardcore wind professors, same with Oghren, that he have a racial ability to sense Lyrium, DOES NOT make him know everyhting there is to know about Lyrium. On the other hand, Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar have had reason to study Lyrium during their life, and as such they might have some insight. Oghren is a grunt, a warrior, and a drunkard to boot. He knows nothing of how Lyrium really works, and as such the only useful thing in that whole line of his, is that there is indeed Lyrium in the mountains around the Temple.

Oghren seems capable of sensing the lyrium and the effect it's having on the ruins of the temple:

Leliana: "I never dreamed I would ever lay my eyes on the Urn of Sacred Ashes... I... I have no words to express"

Oghren: "(Grunts) Don't get your knickers in a twist, sweet cheeks. I don't know how mystical this Urn really is. The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."

[EmperorSahlertz]

Possessing the ability to sense Lyrium that ALL Orzammar dwarves have, does NOT make Oghren knowledgeable about the effect Lyrium could have on the Ashes.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dwarves are heavily caste based, while a Warrior may have better knowledge of lyrium than a human or an elf, they wouldn't be experts on the subject.

For example, you can probably explain what electricity is, but you aren't an expert on it.

The point of the matter is that Oghren senses the lyrium in the walls, it's purity, and the effect it's having on everything in the temple - including the ashes.

I'm also not certain why this is being debated when the developers already explained the purpose behind its inclusion in the story.

[robertthebard]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because Oghren is wrong, does not confirm the divinity of the Ashes. There could be any number of magical reasons for the Ashes to hold the power they do. However, since Lyrium has not ever had the influence Oghren suggest it holds in the Temple, we are just hesitant to agree with Oghren in particular.

The fact that Oghren can actually sense the lyrium in the walls, as well as their purity, makes me question why you think he's wrong.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And I honestly think that Wynne, Morrigan and even Alistar, actually hold more knowledge about Lyrium in particular than Oghren. WHile Oghren might be able to feel it, he knows squat about it.

Why? We know from the codex: "The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle." As the codex would indicate, lyrium is something that Oghren would have some exposure to throughout his life living in the Great Thaig of Orzammar, while it's strictly regulated to Circle mages like Senior Enchanter Wynne.

Oghren has been around lyrium all his life as a dwarf of Orzammar, while Alistair notes that he hasn't taken lyrium (which is why he wonders if it actually improves the abilities of a templar), and Morrigan is an apostate who would likely have a great deal of difficulty acquiring lyrium when it's so strictly controlled by the Chantry (which is the problem Merrill ran into).

Because I've never seen a reference to lyrium healing anything?  I've also never gotten the dialog, since I usually do the Urn before I do Eamon and the treaties, so I haven't picked him up yet. 

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The point of the matter is that Oghren senses the lyrium in the walls, it's purity, and the effect it's having on everything in the temple - including the ashes.

I'm also not certain why this is being debated when the developers already explained the purpose behind its inclusion in the story.

No one has disputed that Oggy can sense lyrium, or that it is a bunch of it (though he's sensed purer lyrium, or as pure lyrium, before). 

However, we've yet to see lyrium have a positive effect on people.  Dragon blood, yes, lyrium, not so much.

Unless you count the crazy eye.

[Senya]

^

We also have yet to see the lyrium in the Deep Roads producing anything other than preservation of memories. We have never talked to the ghosts in the Deep Roads, for example. They say the same thing over and over again in a loop.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The Dwarves are heavily caste based, while a Warrior may have better knowledge of lyrium than a human or an elf, they wouldn't be experts on the subject.

For example, you can probably explain what electricity is, but you aren't an expert on it.

And yet in Awakening, if you take him into Kal-Hirol he is able to a type of anvil and how outdated it is because of his relationship with Branka, and how it reminded him of her. He also talked about how Branka was was always taking samples of the stone in the tunnels to test their composition in Origins when we go into the Deep Roads.

Oghren is one of the best fighters there is, and ultimately became a drunk, but he does have a decent amount of knowledge when it comes to smithing, by virtue of marrying Branka and his relationship that he had with her before she left for the Anvil of the Void, which Oghren was also the only one in Orzammar to know about when she left...or at least he was the only one who knew where she was headed and what to look for, and the signs that she had been somewhere.

While Orzammar is heavily caste based, Oghren has shown a certain degree of competency with his knowledge when it comes to smithing. He's not an expert, he wasn't raised to be a smith, but he does know about it. I'd say his knowledge is pretty reliable, even if he lacks the skill to utilize it.

[Senya]

I'd say that his knowledge is debatable. I don't deny that he would be able to pick up some things from Branka, but basic things. He doesn't exactly say how the anvil is different or why, just that it's different. So, I would say his knowledge is incomplete.

Being married to say a physicist doesn't necessarily mean you are their equal in their field, particularly when your profession is in a whole different area. Sure, he'd pick up some things, but nothing in-depth.

[dragonflight288]

almostinsane99 wrote...

I'd say that his knowledge is debatable. I don't deny that he would be able to pick up some things from Branka, but basic things. He doesn't exactly say how the anvil is different or why, just that it's different. So, I would say his knowledge is incomplete.

Being married to say a physicist doesn't necessarily mean you are their equal in their field, particularly when your profession is in a whole different area. Sure, he'd pick up some things, but nothing in-depth.

I never said he was equal, or even close to an expert. But as a dwarf of Orzammar, his knowledge of lyrium exceeds those on the surface, and someone who was married to the best smith of Orzammar, just through exposure, he would also learn a bit more than the dwarves not part of the smith caste. Oghren isn't a smith, never has been, and I'm not saying he knows how to run a forge or smith anything.

But when he does speak up about smithing stuff or lyrium, he knows what he's talking about. I don't get why it's so hard to believe that a mountain full of pure lyrium can affect the ashes and andraste's temple, because lyrium is simply magic condensed into a raw material. We have seen lyrium have a lot of negative affects because of exposure, but lyrium also has a lot of other affects, from amplifying a mages power in place of blood magic, allowing templars to use their abilities, or enhancing their abilities, or whatever the lore says at the moment as Origins says one thing and Gaider says another...

It's entirely possible that there is no divinity going on with Andraste's ashes and it's all a natural reation because of exposure to lyrium. Or it may be divinely blessed. Fact of the matter is, it's ambiguous.

[Boycott Bioware]

Chemistry lesson 1

Lyrium + Water ----> Mana Potion

Chemistry lesson 2

Lyrium + Dead Woman Ash -----> Healing Powder

Chemistry lesson 3

Red Lyrium + Middle Aged Woman ----> Super Saiya

[robertthebard]

dragonflight288 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

I'd say that his knowledge is debatable. I don't deny that he would be able to pick up some things from Branka, but basic things. He doesn't exactly say how the anvil is different or why, just that it's different. So, I would say his knowledge is incomplete.

Being married to say a physicist doesn't necessarily mean you are their equal in their field, particularly when your profession is in a whole different area. Sure, he'd pick up some things, but nothing in-depth.

I never said he was equal, or even close to an expert. But as a dwarf of Orzammar, his knowledge of lyrium exceeds those on the surface, and someone who was married to the best smith of Orzammar, just through exposure, he would also learn a bit more than the dwarves not part of the smith caste. Oghren isn't a smith, never has been, and I'm not saying he knows how to run a forge or smith anything.

But when he does speak up about smithing stuff or lyrium, he knows what he's talking about. I don't get why it's so hard to believe that a mountain full of pure lyrium can affect the ashes and andraste's temple, because lyrium is simply magic condensed into a raw material. We have seen lyrium have a lot of negative affects because of exposure, but lyrium also has a lot of other affects, from amplifying a mages power in place of blood magic, allowing templars to use their abilities, or enhancing their abilities, or whatever the lore says at the moment as Origins says one thing and Gaider says another...

It's entirely possible that there is no divinity going on with Andraste's ashes and it's all a natural reation because of exposure to lyrium. Or it may be divinely blessed. Fact of the matter is, it's ambiguous.

I'd buy into this if you could show me one instance of lyrium actually healing anyone, or anything.  The most common phrase I remember about constant exposure to lyrium is lyrium addled.  How is that healing anything?

[Senya]

dragonflight288 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

I'd say that his knowledge is debatable. I don't deny that he would be able to pick up some things from Branka, but basic things. He doesn't exactly say how the anvil is different or why, just that it's different. So, I would say his knowledge is incomplete.

Being married to say a physicist doesn't necessarily mean you are their equal in their field, particularly when your profession is in a whole different area. Sure, he'd pick up some things, but nothing in-depth.

I never said he was equal, or even close to an expert. But as a dwarf of Orzammar, his knowledge of lyrium exceeds those on the surface, and someone who was married to the best smith of Orzammar, just through exposure, he would also learn a bit more than the dwarves not part of the smith caste. Oghren isn't a smith, never has been, and I'm not saying he knows how to run a forge or smith anything.

But when he does speak up about smithing stuff or lyrium, he knows what he's talking about. I don't get why it's so hard to believe that a mountain full of pure lyrium can affect the ashes and andraste's temple, because lyrium is simply magic condensed into a raw material. We have seen lyrium have a lot of negative affects because of exposure, but lyrium also has a lot of other affects, from amplifying a mages power in place of blood magic, allowing templars to use their abilities, or enhancing their abilities, or whatever the lore says at the moment as Origins says one thing and Gaider says another...

It's entirely possible that there is no divinity going on with Andraste's ashes and it's all a natural reation because of exposure to lyrium. Or it may be divinely blessed. Fact of the matter is, it's ambiguous.

Perhaps you are right. Still, I just wonder why neither Wynne nor Morrigan never mentioned it, even when they're with Oghren. I think they'd be more educated on lyrium than Oghren and the average surfacer, considering they're Mages.

Still, I think I understand their intent, though I don't find it convincing myself.

[azarhal]

dragonflight288 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

I'd say that his knowledge is debatable. I don't deny that he would be able to pick up some things from Branka, but basic things. He doesn't exactly say how the anvil is different or why, just that it's different. So, I would say his knowledge is incomplete.

Being married to say a physicist doesn't necessarily mean you are their equal in their field, particularly when your profession is in a whole different area. Sure, he'd pick up some things, but nothing in-depth.

I never said he was equal, or even close to an expert. But as a dwarf of Orzammar, his knowledge of lyrium exceeds those on the surface, and someone who was married to the best smith of Orzammar, just through exposure, he would also learn a bit more than the dwarves not part of the smith caste. Oghren isn't a smith, never has been, and I'm not saying he knows how to run a forge or smith anything.

But when he does speak up about smithing stuff or lyrium, he knows what he's talking about. I don't get why it's so hard to believe that a mountain full of pure lyrium can affect the ashes and andraste's temple, because lyrium is simply magic condensed into a raw material. We have seen lyrium have a lot of negative affects because of exposure, but lyrium also has a lot of other affects, from amplifying a mages power in place of blood magic, allowing templars to use their abilities, or enhancing their abilities, or whatever the lore says at the moment as Origins says one thing and Gaider says another...

There are no benefical result of exposition to lyrium.  Boosting
magic come at the cost of addiction, physical deformation and psychosis overtime. The lore indicate that lyrium having a degenerative effects in exchange of boosting magic power, why would it suddently turn ashes into a magical healing powder?

On top of that, we have another example of a place surrounded by lyrium: the Warden's Prison in Legacy. The principe was man made as well. It's purpose was to bind Corypheus and to power up the magical traps and spells in the prison. Haven's temple might have been build on the same concept.

Also, while it probably doesn't mean anything in term of the Dragon age setting, the symptoms from contact with raw lyrium are almost a copy-past of radioactivity poisoning. Even the blue glow of lyrium looks just like Cherenkov radiation (radioluminescence).

[Herr Uhl]

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

[Senya]

^

But there are no enchantments mentioned. Simply pure lyrium behind the walls.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 24 avril 2013 - 03:12 .

[Herr Uhl]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^

But there are no enchantments mentioned. Simply pure lyrium behind the walls.

Enchantments are lyrium worked into a weapon. Work lyrium into a cave and you might get something similar.

The effects of lyrium are wildly inconsistent, so ruling out that it can have a certain effect just seems weird.

[robertthebard]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

[Garden of Heaven]

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

We can argue that Lyrium provides mages with mana, which allows them to cast beneficial healing spells, thus Lyrium can be considered as helpful in that regard.

[Herr Uhl]

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

Here you go.

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Lyrium_Vein

The effects of lyrium are wildly inconsistent.

[robertthebard]

Garden of Heaven wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

We can argue that Lyrium provides mages with mana, which allows them to cast beneficial healing spells, thus Lyrium can be considered as helpful in that regard.

Woah, what a stretch that is, so now lyrium affects the types of spells mages learn?  Because mana also powers spells like Virulent Walking Bomb.  This is applied use of magic, not a result of direct exposure to lyrium.  The argument put forward is that the ashes heal as a direct result of direct exposure to lyrium, so please document another occurrence of this.

[robertthebard]

Herr Uhl wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

Here you go.

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Lyrium_Vein

The effects of lyrium are wildly inconsistent.

http://dragonage.wik...x_entry:_Lyrium

[Herr Uhl]

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Something that seems to be forgotten here is that enchantments are made from lyrium. You can make immortal automatons with lyrium. Explosives are made from lyrium. The assertion that there is no way lyrium can be worked in a way as to be beneficial to your health seems tentative at best.

Really?  So what healing properties has lyrium ever shown?  It's simple, point me to some healing affects of lyrium, and I'll re-evaluate my position.  In the interim, nothing in the lore indicates that it can make something else heal by exposure to it's raw form.  In regard to the effects on the temple, what powers the puzzle?  What creates all the spirits we interact with?  Lyrium is useful, I get it, but I have yet to see prolonged exposure to it heal anything.

Here you go.

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Lyrium_Vein

The effects of lyrium are wildly inconsistent.

http://dragonage.wik...x_entry:_Lyrium

You touch Lyrium and it literally replenishes your health. What else do you want? I'm aware of what the codex states, and my basic outlook on Lyrium is that it can be written into being whatever the writers want.