656 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Total mage freedom or status quo are completely unrealistic to hope for, Since such radically different choices would be far to difficult to address in future games. A more viable solution would be something like status quo or independent circles or monarch governed circles... or the isolationist approach.

[Medhia Nox]

@XxDeonxX: OR the nations of Thedas crapping their pants when the Qunari show up to thank them for dealing with the mage issue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You are probably not going to get an ending which will change the entire political and cultural landscape of Thedas. Or rather, you aren't going to get multiple of such. What you can hope for is local changes of minor impact. For instance, whichever rules Ferelden, Alistar or Anora, neither of them changes much for Ferelden on the international scene. If there is going to be a world changing ending, it will be like the Archdemon, for instance. No matter how you play DA:O, the Archdemon always dies, and the Fifth Blight is prevented from picking up the pace. So dont get your hopes up for multiple world changing endings, but be sure to see some kind of minor local endings (for instance who rules Orlais, since it appears to be in a state of civil war).

[Ianamus]

There is no way that complete mage freedom or complete return to the old system will happen, It's just not feasible, and if you are expecting them to be options then your expectations are set far too high.

What we will likely get are various degrees of shaky compromise. If the mages 'lose' the conflict then the compromise is slightly more in the Templars favour, if the mages 'win' then it is slightly more in their favour and if both sides reach a compromise then it is more equal. I see it as being like the "special requests" you can make at the end of DA:O- they have an impact, but in the grand scheme of Thedas have relatively small impact. And this is perfectly fine in my opinion, because even hero's like the Warden shouldn't have the power to shape the entire mage/templar conflict on their own, only influence it. The efforts of a single person shouldn't be enough to steer the entire conflict into either full mage freedom or complete return to the old system.

The mage/Templar conflict will likely apprach it's own conclusion, one that the player characters can nudge in one direction or the other, but will overall be similar other than a few key differences that can be picked up by future titles. And whatever the solutiuon is there will still be some degree of conflict between mages and Templars, just as there was before. 

Modifié par EJ107, 15 avril 2013 - 04:08 .

[LobselVith8]

EJ107 wrote...

What we will likely get are various degrees of shaky compromise. If the mages 'lose' the conflict then the compromise is slightly more in the Templars favour, if the mages 'win' then it is slightly more in their favour and if both sides reach a compromise then it is more equal.

So you don't think Inquisition would appeal to players who have no interest in establishing a compromise between the mages and the templars?

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you don't think Inquisition would appeal to players who have no interest in establishing a compromise between the mages and the templars?

If the war's conclusion is left up to us (which is by no means assured): No.

I honestly think, based on the glimpses I've gotten from what you seem to desire to do in Thedas, being allowed the choice on which side to bring to victory is the last thing you want Lobsel. There's simply no way it could live up to those ideas if there's a choice involved. Unless I've misunderstood you completely. Unless the series ends there, or continues on only in Qunari lands or Tevinter. Then it might actually be able to live up to what you dream.
But the choices cannot be too radically different if we're supposed to return to lands affected to them.

Maybe I am wrong. I hope I am. But I wouldn't count on it.

Modifié par Sir JK, 15 avril 2013 - 06:17 .

[Noctis Augustus]

secretsandlies wrote...
OP, where is my total mages genocide option?

I doubt Bioware would give you that option but if they do, then I want to be able to obliterate the Chantry and erase them from the records of history itself.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 15 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[Senya]

EJ107 wrote...

There is no way that complete mage freedom or complete return to the old system will happen, It's just not feasible, and if you are expecting them to be options then your expectations are set far too high.

What we will likely get are various degrees of shaky compromise. If the mages 'lose' the conflict then the compromise is slightly more in the Templars favour, if the mages 'win' then it is slightly more in their favour and if both sides reach a compromise then it is more equal. I see it as being like the "special requests" you can make at the end of DA:O- they have an impact, but in the grand scheme of Thedas have relatively small impact. And this is perfectly fine in my opinion, because even hero's like the Warden shouldn't have the power to shape the entire mage/templar conflict on their own, only influence it. The efforts of a single person shouldn't be enough to steer the entire conflict into either full mage freedom or complete return to the old system.

The mage/Templar conflict will likely apprach it's own conclusion, one that the player characters can nudge in one direction or the other, but will overall be similar other than a few key differences that can be picked up by future titles. And whatever the solutiuon is there will still be some degree of conflict between mages and Templars, just as there was before. 

^^

This is most likely, in my opinion.

[SwordofMercy1]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Or Bioware could give you just one outcome which I think makes the mage templar war completely meaningless and will definitely drive me away from the Dragon Age games.

And the horrible memories come forth...

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...

What we will likely get are various degrees of shaky compromise. If the mages 'lose' the conflict then the compromise is slightly more in the Templars favour, if the mages 'win' then it is slightly more in their favour and if both sides reach a compromise then it is more equal.

So you don't think Inquisition would appeal to players who have no interest in establishing a compromise between the mages and the templars?

So you just want the option of killing every single templar or mage in the chantry area?

[LobselVith8]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you don't think Inquisition would appeal to players who have no interest in establishing a compromise between the mages and the templars?

So you just want the option of killing every single templar or mage in the chantry area?

I want the option to help the mages maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, not condemn them to another millennia of servitude to the Chantry.

[Herr Uhl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So you don't think Inquisition would appeal to players who have no interest in establishing a compromise between the mages and the templars?

So you just want the option of killing every single templar or mage in the chantry area?

I want the option to help the mages maintain their autonomy from the Chantry and the templars, not condemn them to another millennia of servitude to the Chantry.

So you want peace? That is a compromise. The only way to avoid any compromise is to annihalate the other side.

[Althix]

ibbikiookami wrote...
obliterate the Chantry

what Chantry ever did to you? you know that their Chant is almost a Matthew (Bible).

I think you fail to see a difference between Chantry and Templar Order. And these two organizations are rather distant in their approach to let say magi problem.

Even if i am always up for some bloodbath(blood for the Blood God and such), random violence should be applied in the right time, right place and to the right people.

p.s. also obliterating Chantry can get you killed, just look at Anders. Dogs ate his body.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 17 avril 2013 - 04:29 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

obliterate the Chantry 

what Chantry ever did to you?

My Surana Warden condemned the Chantry for sending their templars into the Dales and starting a war with his people. He also viewed the Chantry controlled Circle as an oppressive place. The Chantry robbed him of his family, and tried to murder his friend. My apostate Hawke saw the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. I'm sure my next protagonist has plenty of reasons to hate the Chantry.

secretsandlies wrote...

you know that their Chant is almost a Matthew (Bible).

No, it isn't.

secretsandlies wrote...

I think you fail to see a difference between Chantry and Templar Order. And these two organizations are rather distant in their approach to let say magi problem.

The templars were the military arm of the Chantry for nearly a millennia, until Lambert broke the Order away from the Chantry.

secretsandlies wrote...

Even if i am always up for some bloodbath(blood for the Blood God and such), random violence should be applied in the right time, right place and to the right people.

For some of us, that means defeating the templars, and the Chantry if necessary. They are the fulcrum of evil.

secretsandlies wrote...

p.s. also obliterating Chantry can get you killed, just look at Anders. Dogs ate his body. 

He was alive last time my blood mage Hawke checked. 

[Althix]

no it's not. but you must admit that there is too much similarities. between chant of light and some verses from Matthew. (i guess that is from where ispiration is coming. you just switch peacemakers for peacekeepers and you are good)

as for the rest... you zealots are so funny.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 17 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

no it's not. but you must admit that there is too much similarities. between chant of light and some verses from Matthew. (i guess that is from where ispiration is coming. you just switch peacemakers for peacekeepers and you are good)

as for the rest... you zealots are so funny.

Because some people dislike the Chantry?

[10K]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@XxDeonxX: OR the nations of Thedas crapping their pants when the Qunari show up to thank them for dealing with the mage issue.

And that's the thing, the Qunari will invade. And with out mages to lend aid, do you really think Thedas will stand a chance. I think not.

Edit: Qunari Mages accepted their role in the Qun. In Thedas Mages are human and Elves who want  freedom. And will not accept someones rule over them. So of course there's this huge conflict, and if they don't find a compromise they all will be converted into the Qun. Or die. 

Modifié par mosesarose, 17 avril 2013 - 06:43 .

[Althix]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because some people dislike the Chantry?

i don't care about any religion but Chaos Gods.

and i am sure i will decide what to do in the same manner as i did in DA:O. those who have higher value will endure. that is why mages are not dead, that is why i sided with elves, that is why i saved the anvil.

but i tell you this. if mages need 3rd party help to get this freedom they want. well than they just not deserve it. same with templars. if they can't put mages down hard, colar and chain them with out help. well then, they are just not fit for the duty they are trying to carry.

p.s. but your point is : bwahahahah. i am pro mage, i will deliver freedom for my brothers. even if this means i have to slay over 9000 other people in the process. because my cause is just.

zealots are dangerous. or you can call yourself a paladin. same thing.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 17 avril 2013 - 07:07 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because some people dislike the Chantry?

i don't care about any religion but Chaos Gods.

and i am sure i will decide what to do in the same manner as i did in DA:O. those who have higher value will endure. that is why mages are not dead, that is why i sided with elves, that is why i saved the anvil.

Some people want to finish off where their Warden started.

secretsandlies wrote...

but i tell you this. if mages need 3rd party help to get this freedom they want. well than they just not deserve it. same with templars. if they can't put mages down hard, colar and chain them with out help. well then, they are just not fit for the duty they are trying to carry.

You must have really hated Origins, then.

secretsandlies wrote...

p.s. but your point is : bwahahahah. i am pro mage, i will deliver freedom for my brothers. even if this means i have to slay over 9000 other people in the process. because my cause is just.

You spared the Anvil. Yet you're vilifying me because I think mage autonomy from the Chantry is a good thing? 

secretsandlies wrote...

zealots are dangerous. or you can call yourself a paladin. same thing. 

Grey Warden might be a more apt term for this universe.

[Althix]

why should i hate Origins? It is a perfect example of how a good deeds can be a perfect mask for thoughtfully orchestrated scheme. Let say redcliffe - my warden was fighting that battle not because he is a good man or eager to help. But because those people in redcliffe village are tools for war that coming. Tools must be used, not wasted.

And yes i spared the anvil, because storming Drakon keep gates is easier with golems. And no i am not vilifying you... i guess, but i would rather see situation as 3rd side with my own agenda. rather than taking agenda of one of interested parties and deliver for them no matter what.

Also if mages want their freedom so bad, it is they who must fight for it not i. What value this freedom will have for them, if they get it from somebody's hands. delivered to them on a white saucer with blue border. Close to none in my eyes. Same for templars. If you can't fulfil your duties, just step aside and submit.

My Hawke ended Anders not because this chantry explosion, i would rather go there my self and hang Grand Cleric with her entrails head down on Maker's statue. Anders is a problem, and alive he is not as valuable as being dead.

And i think Grey Wardend are not similar to zealotry or paladins. First of all, their tasks and goals would benefit every living soul. Also Grey Wardens would rather negotiate truce between Templars and Mages, simply because two assets is better than one. And i don't remember any civilians being murdered in order to prove some point by Wardens.

And as for finish off where Warden started, well i guess if we are about to see Qunari invasion. I hope my Warden will spearhead Qunari attack.


But your point is - freedom for mages. Alright. But mages are flawed, because they are living beings. Who angers, who desires, who jealous. And one mage rejected by a girl is enough to set a village on fire or wake the dead or summon some demons with bad attitude towards everyone. Or highborn mage can use his gift to alter the odds in his family's or his own favor.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 17 avril 2013 - 07:55 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

why should i hate Origins? It is a perfect example of how a good deeds can be a perfect mask for thoughtfully orchestrated scheme. Let say redcliffe - my warden was fighting that battle not because he is a good man or eager to help. But because those people in redcliffe village are tools for war that coming. Tools must be used, not wasted.

Origins gave you the choice to help the mages as well, via the Mages Collective. It's not a new concept.

secretsandlies wrote...

And yes i spared the anvil, because storming Drakon keep gates is easier with golems. And no i am not vilifying you... i guess, but i would rather see situation as 3rd side with my own agenda. rather than taking agenda of one of interested parties and deliver for them no matter what.

My Surana Warden was pragmatic, too, and he spared the Anvil.

secretsandlies wrote...

Also if mages want their freedom so bad, it is they who must fight for it not i. What value this freedom will have for them, if they get it from somebody's hands. delivered to them on a white saucer with blue border. Close to none in my eyes. Same for templars. If you can't fulfil your duties, just step aside and submit.

I play as a mage in Dragon Age, so it's an issue that makes sense for my character to care about. Helping the templars or the Chantry wouldn't make sense for me.

secretsandlies wrote...

My Hawke ended Anders not because this chantry explosion, i would rather go there my self and hang Grand Cleric with her entrails head down on Maker's statue. Anders is a problem, and alive he is not as valuable as being dead.

You're entitled to your opinion.

secretsandlies wrote...

And i think Grey Wardend are not similar to zealotry or paladins. First of all, their tasks and goals would benefit every living soul.

I meant a group that's driven to do whatever is necessary.

secretsandlies wrote...
Also Grey Wardens would rather negotiate truce between Templars and Mages, simply because two assets is better than one.

Some are neutral (like Riordian); some are political (like the First Warden). My Hero of Ferelden asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given its independence; as my example addresses, it depends on the specific Warden.

secretsandlies wrote...

And i don't remember any civilians being murdered in order to prove some point by Wardens.

The Chantry isn't a civilian organization.

secretsandlies wrote...

And as for finish off where Warden started, well i guess if we are about to see Qunari invasion. I hope my Warden will spearhead Qunari attack.

My Surana Warden left the world with Morrigan (and his Mabari Hound).

secretsandlies wrote...
But your point is - freedom for mages. Alright. But mages are flawed, because they are living beings. Who angers, who desires, who jealous. And one mage rejected by a girl is enough to set a village on fire or wake the dead or summon some demons with bad attitude towards everyone. Or highborn mage can use his gift to alter the odds in his family's or his own favor.

Everyone knows mages are people. That doesn't change the fact that some people disagree with subjugating mages under the heel of an anti-mage religious organization.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 17 avril 2013 - 09:03 .

[mopotter]

Sir JK wrote...

I think that if you're hoping for two (or more) radically different outcomes, then you'd probably best served by lowering your expactations quite a lot. You're not going to get to choose between mage utopia on one hand and Pax Andraste on the other. While getting the choice between Black and White sounds awesome, if one was hoping to see it followed up or more adventures following that point then the expectations border the unreasonable.
Whatever choices we're offered, the results of those will likely be no more than the footnotes of history so to speak. Making an impact, but not really changing things irreversibly. Consider the choice between Anora and Alistair in DAO for instance. They're both likely sterile. No matter how succesful monarchs they are, they will die with no successors. Allowing us to return to a Ferelden later in the age with one fix ruler no matter who we chose.
That's the sort of thing you could expect at the most, I believe. Things that in and of themselves probably do not lead anywhere, but historians would pick up on and discuss as "interesting" or "setting a stage for later".
They cannot tailor make a game for one choice after all, no matter how much any one fan might love that choice. Not only is it blatantly disrespectful against those who didn't, but it also risk alienating new players since they'd be forced to play previous titles to get this one.

So I advice you too keep your expectations low. Hope for interesting choices, but not much more. And if I am wrong and they actually do make world altering choices and follows up on them? Well that's just a positive suprise.

Which is why I don't plan on pre-ordering it.  I need to find out what they do with the ending options before I fork out 60 or 70 or more.  I guess my expectations or so low I'm not going to risk it.  Weird, my expectations are low, but my hopes are high.

I hope they give us 3 endings that make sense - support the mages, support the templars or bring a group together of mages and templars who will work together with Rhys and Evangeline against the separatist.  But that's just a hope.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

[Bleachrude]

"obliterate the chantry"

Strange how people have more of a hard-on for the chantry than for the Tevinters...

Looking again at origins, but the life of a mage is LEAGUES better than the life of the average slave in Tevinter...

Hell, the mage dorms in the Ferelden circle when you play the mage origin (before the rebellion) ACTUALLY are cleaner/look nicer than most of the hovels of normal average Ferelden citizens to say nothing of either the alienage elves or the casteless.

I honestly would respect the mage position more if I actually saw them lead a war/uprising against Tevinter.

I'm hoping that when we World of Thedas comes that there are SOME indication that there were human mages fighting alongside Andrastre.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yea, it is kinda like a bunch of people ****ing about their lunch being 5$ more expensive, while there is a homeless guy on the street in front of their office building. It's about perspective, and not everyone got it.