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[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think that would make the mage rebellion and every action toward mage independence (including the Magi Boon) pointless.

So, you advocate what?  Endless war?  A mage reign of terror?

I'd like to help maintain mage autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. I don't advocate "compromises" with people who think the Maker gives them religious authority over mages.

So, in your mind, peace is out of the question in its entirety?  Because "peace" is the question that was asked, as you see here:

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Anyway, since we are going way off topic and turning the thread into a Fenris thread I will make an on topic post.

Do you guys think that there will be an option for peace between the Templars and Magi? just like the Geth-Quarian conflict in Mass Effect 3 had a peace option.

If peace is out of the question, the only alternative is endless war or a mage rulership (which I call a reign of terror). 

Or do you have some other alternative that I haven't thought of?

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'd like to help maintain mage autonomy from the Chantry and the templars. I don't advocate "compromises" with people who think the Maker gives them religious authority over mages.

So, in your mind, peace is out of the question in its entirety?  Because "peace" is the question that was asked, as you see here:

Garden of Heaven wrote...

Anyway, since we are going way off topic and turning the thread into a Fenris thread I will make an on topic post.

Do you guys think that there will be an option for peace[/b] between the Templars and Magi? just like the Geth-Quarian conflict in Mass Effect 3 had a peace option.

If peace is out of the question, the only alternative is endless war or a mage rulership (which I call a reign of terror).  

Or do you have some other alternative that I haven't thought of?

There can be peace when the templars are defeated, and the Chantry can't force the mages to capitulate to them.

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

I suppose all wars ended through reasonable negotiation became pointless then.

That entirely misses my point about all the actions made towards mage independence. You're welcome to a differing opinion, of course.

Mages need to follow the laws of the society they live in. As long as they live with and interact with non-Mages, they will need to face judgement for any crimes by courts and law enforcement composed of Mages and non-Mages with Templar training so that Mages who abuse their power might be apprehended while the prejudices of Mages and non-Mages are kept in check by the other group.

We do not have special courts for different races in the real world. The only reason why I advocate for a police force specializing in Magi suspects is for the dangers magic might pose for normal guards. And a court system composing of Mages and non-Mages keeps Mages from going to easy on other Mages or overlooking evidence by virtue of belonging to the same group. Likewise, non-Mages would be prevented from abusing power or taking a non-Mage's word over a Mage's.

Would a non-Mage feel like they're getting equal treatment in a court composed solely of Mages? Would a Mage feel like they're getting equal treatment from a court composed entirely of non-Mages?

The police and court system should be overseen, whether by the Chantry or individual governments. I don't care either way, but they need oversight to prevent corruption and abuse of power.

[Silfren]

I tend to agree with Lob in that I don't think peace can be achieved so long as the Chantry maintains power and fixates on the idea that mages are irreparably cursed. I think there COULD be peace between mages and templars...but first the Templar order would have to be entirely re-defined. It cannot be the military arm of an organization who encourages its soldiers toward anti-mage militancy, if it is to be a force that is TRULY balanced between guarding mages as well as guarding against them.

There has to be some kind of military force available that is equipped to counter magic and to put down demons and abominations, but there also have to be checks and balances in place to prevent that force from abusing its position. The Chantry can't be that institution--at least not in its current state.

[Boycott Bioware]

I think Templar should be an independent order, anyone can join and anyone can leave. Not religious order but a welfare order. Act as a part of City Guard/Police department that handling magical cases. No longer religious order, but secular one.

By this they no longer have the anti-mage sentiment it is because their sentiment is driven solely by religion/Chantry dogma and doctrine. And by that it diminished the hatred from mages toward them and toward the society. They also can get assistance from mages who are neutral

It is clear that the whole mess is caused by religious moral and dogma by the Chantry

[Althix]

Qistina wrote...
It is clear that the whole mess is caused by religious moral and dogma by the Chantry

what ? common sense can't cause this?

[Asdrubael Vect]

we do not need inefficient and expensive junkies-Templars(and of course we no need their Orlais Chantry propoganda).

mages can do Templars magic block(and they can drain mana too) much better and without constant use of expensive Lyrium.

Templars need to use Lyrium every 1-2 weaks to just have their ability's and without Lyrium they go crazy and die after 1-2 month.

(Alister rare exception to the rules, because of his half-elf mage blood with taint and some dragon blood)

Templars unlike Mages almost have no protection against blood magic, demons and serious spells

Trained Templar Knight can kill only 1-2 weak and untrained aprentice from the circle who can not really fight, but this mage rather immediately frightened and use blood magic(but without experiense it is danderous for mage) or turn himself into a demon....and then, most likely demon will immediately kill/enslave this Templar and some others before he would be killed

in 90 % Templars are never fighting alone, and usually they always go in groups of not less than 3-5 people just against a one untrained Circle aprentice

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 27 avril 2013 - 10:49 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

I seriously do not understand the people that support the Templars in this war, it is really very unwise and does not make sense

no srly people, what do you think Templars will do in such situation, even if they somehow can win this battle and somehow stop rebellion...so how they could do that? and what be next?

you really think that mages will accept any Orlais Chantry or Templars control/opressions and back to Chantry Circle System?

or do you really think that if Templars somehow can kill/Tranquil/enslave rebellion mages this will change something? or you are naive to think about the Saerabas system of Qun?

this war is pointless

1)The more you opressing mages the more they resist and they will use all what they have...and we have seen what they can do

2)Mages will be born anyway and they always will fight agains their opression

3)mages always would be better, powerfull and stronger then non-mages, and nothing will change this

3)Blood magic existed in Thedas before humans, and do not even try you can not get rid of it as long as mages and magic with Fade still exist

4)without mages Thedas will be doomed from the Demons, Darkspawns(Grey Wardens cant exist without blood magic)..and i not think that you really would like living by Qun

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 12:28 .

[Althix]

Dark Korsar wrote...
Trained Templar Knight can kill only 1-2 weak and untrained aprentice from the circle who can not really fight

oh shiet. so you are saying that mages spent one thousand years inside the circles because they like food there?

Modifié par secretsandlies, 26 avril 2013 - 12:35 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

no because for 14 Chantry Circles(non-Tevinter) we have an army of hundreds/thousands Templars with ~15 Knight-commander who was supported by Orlais Empire and Chantry for 900 years

and for 700 years we have a 17 Right of Annulment and 2 after Meredit corruption

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 12:38 .

[Althix]

but you are saying that a trained templar knight can kill only 2 apprentices at best.
what senior mages can do? burn down armies?
i mean serously have you ever saw artillery in action? or at least mortar team? single mine from a mortar can destroy a squad and well placed mine can cripple a platoon.

i mean if mages are so godlike they just can burn to ash any army with ease. so why they were in circles all that time? good will? sexy templar recruits? food? jokes on templars?

[azarhal]

Qistina wrote...

I think Templar should be an independent order, anyone can join and anyone can leave. Not religious order but a welfare order. Act as a part of City Guard/Police department that handling magical cases. No longer religious order, but secular one.

By this they no longer have the anti-mage sentiment it is because their sentiment is driven solely by religion/Chantry dogma and doctrine. And by that it diminished the hatred from mages toward them and toward the society. They also can get assistance from mages who are neutral

It is clear that the whole mess is caused by religious moral and dogma by the Chantry

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

[Asdrubael Vect]

secretsandlies

900 years Chantry Propoganda, Circle Life( 6-12 year kids are grown in cicles), Harrowing, Tranquil, Templars opression

Chantry Сircles limit mages knowledges about magic....and do not allow them to have their own weapons(swords and others) and armors

If Child -mage began to demonstrate magical abilities so according to the laws of the Chantry, this would result in the child being sent to the Circle Tower for tutoring, as well as forfeiting all rights to lands and titles(and for all mage children, too..even if they are will not be mages, but they are more likely to be raised by Chantry as Templars or Chantry sisters/brothers).

and many apostates run from there(and Templars still have their phylacteries and many peoples in many Chantry countries were hunt for mages for gold)

and as you can see Tevinter Empire is totally different

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 01:00 .

[Althix]

oh. well it is not a propaganda. Hitler had a propaganda, Joseph Stalin and his cult of personality is propaganda as well.
This is not a propaganda what we see in Thedas, it is just a warnings about dangers of magic.

Propaganda it is when mages will not be considered as living being or human or person, but much less than that. Thing that must be caged. Like in Qun.
Such freethinkers like Anders just can't be born or appear in society where real working propaganda is in place.

As for why Templars will win. It is simple enough, they are trained proffesional soldiers. Who instead of amphetamine are using lyrium.

[Bleachrude]

azarhal wrote...

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

I would like to point out that the Chantry and Andrastre did not form out of thin aitr...these discussions seem to almost always forget that the people of Thedas

a) know how bad Tevinter was (and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them)

can easily see what mages in charge would result in.

That's not fear. That's just prudence

[Boycott Bioware]

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People
who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias.
The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching
(Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil
things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their
will).

Templar is just a normal person who consume Lyrium and have training to resist magic, other than this they are just normal person. Their sentiment toward mages are being brainwashed into them, their religious belief taught by the Chantry.

Their ability is not divine anyway

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 01:52 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Propaganda it is when mages will not be considered as living being or human or person, but much less than that. Thing that must be caged. Like in Qun.

Cullen clearly said Mages cannot be treated like human, they are weapon. Clearly it is a propaganda

Such freethinkers like Anders just can't be born or appear in society where real working propaganda is in place.

Anders is a Grey Warden, that is the only reason no Templar touch him no matter what he do, and then Anders association with Hawke strengthen his position, the Templars already have bad name in the city as Cullen stated so they don't want to create situation by messing with "the Champion friend" who is also a Grey Warden (the memory about the Blight is still strong that time in peoples mind), Kirkwall population now filled with Fereldens

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 02:01 .

[Althix]

no it is not. Cullen just voicing his opinion or common opinion inside the Order. it is different to what we have in the Qun where real propaganda and nation wide indoctrination is actually working. I don't remember any situation when mages in human world burn them selfs to ash because they were for too long without supervision.

Which is why i think if Templars win, real large scale propaganda will be used, and in few decades mages will lose all right and freedoms they had inside the circle.

[Asdrubael Vect]

secretsandlies

and Andres was born in Anderfells who have a very strong influense of Grey Wardens than Orlais Chantry

Bleachrude

"and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them"

year, Ancient Tevinter Empre(ALL THEDAS) with Dragons and demons  destroyed Arlathan and enslaved them more then 2000 years ago.....so whom they hate more Ancient Tevinter what was gone with first Blight or Orlais and his Chantry who was destroed their Dales 700 years ago and who pursues them and their religion, their Keepers and all mages, for Anraste and Maker will

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 02:33 .

[Boycott Bioware]

the truth can be a propaganda, as well as lies, anything can be propagated

Example, it maybe true there are religious extremists among religious people, but when it being highlighted by someone that religion breed extremism, there you got a propaganda.

It maybe true that "A" company making bad products, but when some other companies use that to buy customers, it become a propaganda.

Then there is a bandwagon...when one person saying "A" is a liar, it is nothing, but when that person come with 40 others saying "A" is a liar to make people believe it, it become a propaganda

Propaganda is something exploited for something

[robertthebard]

Bleachrude wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

I would like to point out that the Chantry and Andrastre did not form out of thin aitr...these discussions seem to almost always forget that the people of Thedas

a) know how bad Tevinter was (and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them)

can easily see what mages in charge would result in.

That's not fear. That's just prudence

Yes, because being forced to either live in Alienages, or forced to be wandering Nomads that have no real home is vastly superior to having their own corner of the world to reside in.  The Chantry decided, via promises of "If the Chant is sung in all corners of the world, I will return", very rough paraphrase, that all people should follow the Maker, and if not, then it's time for an Exalted March.  The last time I checked, Alienage life, while giving one a home, really isn't butterflies and rainbows.  What about the Gods the Elves worshipped?  Shouldn't they be allowed to follow their own beliefs?  The answer is, according to the Chantry; "No, because the Maker..."  I don't find it hard to believe at all, since the Andrastian Chantry was set up by people who supposedly followed the teachings of the woman that actually had a hand in freeing them in the first place, only to turn around and put them right back in the same position they were before.  Elves are considered less than animals in Thedas, but don't take my word for it, ask the Arl's son in the CE origin.  "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...



Anders is a Grey Warden, that is the only reason no Templar touch him no matter what he do, and then Anders association with Hawke strengthen his position, the Templars already have bad name in the city as Cullen stated so they don't want to create situation by messing with "the Champion friend" who is also a Grey Warden (the memory about the Blight is still strong that time in peoples mind), Kirkwall population now filled with Fereldens

You're right about Anders being protected by the Champion in Act 3. Meredith doesn't want to go against the Champion because of his/her popularity in Kirkwall.
About the GW, you're wrong. The templars failed for years to locate Anders. Anders's recruitment quest, when the Fereldan mobs threaten Hawke shows that the people need to protect Anders's identity from the Templars, who would've put him in the Gallows if they found him.
Which means that the templars have to blame themselves for not catching him before he was under the protection of the Champion.

[DKJaigen]

secretsandlies wrote...

oh. well it is not a propaganda. Hitler had a propaganda, Joseph Stalin and his cult of personality is propaganda as well.
This is not a propaganda what we see in Thedas, it is just a warnings about dangers of magic.

Propaganda it is when mages will not be considered as living being or human or person, but much less than that. Thing that must be caged. Like in Qun.
Such freethinkers like Anders just can't be born or appear in society where real working propaganda is in place.

As for why Templars will win. It is simple enough, they are trained proffesional soldiers. Who instead of amphetamine are using lyrium.

Oh i dont doubt it. But the chantry cannot survive without the circle mages . the templars may win the war  but they will not survive afterwards. Supporting the templars is pointless because there are greater threats then the circle mages.

[Boycott Bioware]

hhh89 wrote...
You're right about Anders being protected by the Champion in Act 3. Meredith doesn't want to go against the Champion because of his/her popularity in Kirkwall.
About the GW, you're wrong. The templars failed for years to locate Anders. Anders's recruitment quest, when the Fereldan mobs threaten Hawke shows that the people need to protect Anders's identity from the Templars, who would've put him in the Gallows if they found him.
Which means that the templars have to blame themselves for not catching him before he was under the protection of the Champion.

The people want to protect Anders doesn't mean he need to hide, he do hide himself because he has the agenda that he manage to do years later....

"...and i have reason of my own...(i want to blow up the church)"

The people want to protect him assuming Templars will do something to him, they don't know Grey Warden are protected from such thing

Anyway, everything in DA2 is VARRIC VERSION, so things are by his own perception/perspective

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 02:55 .

[Althix]

you don't get it. it is not about is it truth or lies or how it is exploited.

the very fact that when pc speaks with Cullen and can disagree with his position that mages can not be threated as humans proves that there is no real propaganda at work. there is no propaganda at all. because pc can see alternative and idea that mages are not humans is not ingrained in pc mind as it should be if propaganda would actually at work in human world of Thedas at all.

Fear of power and unknown - yes, ideas and postulates are not soaked into human minds with mothers milk from the very time when they are born.

You may speak of propaganda as some notes on the wall or priests speaches, i speak about real one. When there is no alternative for expression other opionions on the matter because there is can't be another opinions at all.