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[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...

[
The people want to protect Anders doesn't mean he need to hide, he do hide himself because he has the agenda that he manage to do years later....

"...and i have rason of my own...(i want to blow up the church)"

The people want to protect him assuming Templars will do something to him, they don't know Grey Warden are protected from such thing

First, Anders didn't want to blow up the Chantry since Act 1, considering that in his quest in Act 2, when knowing that both Elthina and Meredith rejected the Tranquil Solution, he thought that he could talk with the Grand Cleric.
Second, people generally know that Wardens are protected by normal law. I mean, you can have the Hero of the Ferelden being a mage. People would assume that if the GW in Ferelden wasn't put in the Circle, the same wouldn't happen to Anders.
Third, Anders is no longer a GW. He's tainted, of course, but he's not part of the organization anymore. He said so himself. He could lie to Meredith, of course, but given the fact that there isn't a GW base in Kirkwall (meaning that he shouldn't have business here), the fact that he was hiding in Darktown and not talk directly to the authorities of the city, and that Mereidth could easily know if he's still part of the order by simply asking the Wardens in Ferelden and Orlais (or whatever GW base is near), the templars could easily find that he's not part of the GW anymore, and put him in the Gallows.
Even in the case that the Wardens recognize him as a member, he'd been forced to go to Ferelden, which isn't what Anders wants. He has every reason to hide for the templars, because otherwise, in a way or another, he couldn't help his fellow mages.

[Boycott Bioware]

secretsandlies wrote...
you don't get it. it is not about is it truth or lies or how it is exploited.

the very fact that when pc speaks with Cullen and can disagree with his position that mages can not be threated as humans proves that there is no real propaganda at work. there is no propaganda at all. because pc can see alternative and idea that mages are not humans is not ingrained in pc mind as it should be if propaganda would actually at work in human world of Thedas at all.

Fear of power and unknown - yes, ideas and postulates are not soaked into human minds with mothers milk from the very time when they are born.

You may speak of propaganda as some notes on the wall or priests speaches, i speak about real one. When there is no alternative for expression other opionions on the matter because there is can't be another opinions at all.

What is propaganda?

"Muslims are terrorists", "Islam is evil religion", "Christians are homophobic", "Japan is rapists country", "Blacks are criminals", "White are conquerors", "Iran execute homosexuals", "Americans are fat ignorant people", "Jews are to be blamed for everything", "Arabs are backward people", "USA is run by Satanic cult", "Chinese love to lie", "India is a poor country, their people begging on the street, selling their daughters"....ect ect ect....

if you believe above, then you believe propaganda...it maybe true, maybe lie, maybe half true, maybe there is a truth in it, maybe some lies, maybe exaggerated, maybe cherry picking...but someone gain something with those above

The idea of what Cullen say that Mages cannot be treated like other human comes from where? from his belief, the dogma and the doctrine, he have been indoctrinated by the Chantry to think that way...if he NOT a Templar, will he think that way? Keran sister interrupt him saying "surely that is harsh...."

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 03:13 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...


The idea of what Cullen say that Mages cannot be treated like other human comes from where? from his belief, the dogma and the doctrine, he have been indoctrinated by the Chantry to think that way...if he NOT a Templar, will he think that way? Keran sister interrupt him saying "surely that is harsh...."

I'd say that Cullen's view weere influenced more by being caged for weeks, when he was tortured and forced to see both templars and mages tortured and give in to Uldred, becoming abominations or thralls, and not much the Chantry propaganda, since there are templars who don't view mages as weapons or tools. Or are you forgetting what he suffered in DAO?

[Althix]

what you are talking are stereotypes, i am talking about spreading infromation that will influence minds inside and outside entire countries. propaganda that evolve in time into indoctrination. and in few decades it is gona be the only truth people can know because there is no alternative to it.

As it now in world of Thedas propaganda is present yes but in initial form possible, that allow people to think for them selfs.
In case of Templars victory propaganda will expand and evolve into indoctrination. It is just most obvious route possible, because Templars would not like another rebellion and will not allow it to happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

robertthebard wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

I would like to point out that the Chantry and Andrastre did not form out of thin aitr...these discussions seem to almost always forget that the people of Thedas 

a) know how bad Tevinter was (and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them)

can easily see what mages in charge would result in.

That's not fear. That's just prudence

Yes, because being forced to either live in Alienages, or forced to be wandering Nomads that have no real home is vastly superior to having their own corner of the world to reside in.  The Chantry decided, via promises of "If the Chant is sung in all corners of the world, I will return", very rough paraphrase, that all people should follow the Maker, and if not, then it's time for an Exalted March.  The last time I checked, Alienage life, while giving one a home, really isn't butterflies and rainbows.  What about the Gods the Elves worshipped?  Shouldn't they be allowed to follow their own beliefs?  The answer is, according to the Chantry; "No, because the Maker..."  I don't find it hard to believe at all, since the Andrastian Chantry was set up by people who supposedly followed the teachings of the woman that actually had a hand in freeing them in the first place, only to turn around and put them right back in the same position they were before.  Elves are considered less than animals in Thedas, but don't take my word for it, ask the Arl's son in the CE origin.  "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".

It is not the Chantry who forces the Elves to live in alienages....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 26 avril 2013 - 03:30 .

[robertthebard]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

I would like to point out that the Chantry and Andrastre did not form out of thin aitr...these discussions seem to almost always forget that the people of Thedas 

a) know how bad Tevinter was (and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them)

can easily see what mages in charge would result in.

That's not fear. That's just prudence

Yes, because being forced to either live in Alienages, or forced to be wandering Nomads that have no real home is vastly superior to having their own corner of the world to reside in.  The Chantry decided, via promises of "If the Chant is sung in all corners of the world, I will return", very rough paraphrase, that all people should follow the Maker, and if not, then it's time for an Exalted March.  The last time I checked, Alienage life, while giving one a home, really isn't butterflies and rainbows.  What about the Gods the Elves worshipped?  Shouldn't they be allowed to follow their own beliefs?  The answer is, according to the Chantry; "No, because the Maker..."  I don't find it hard to believe at all, since the Andrastian Chantry was set up by people who supposedly followed the teachings of the woman that actually had a hand in freeing them in the first place, only to turn around and put them right back in the same position they were before.  Elves are considered less than animals in Thedas, but don't take my word for it, ask the Arl's son in the CE origin.  "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".

It is not the Chantry who forces the Elves to live in alienages....

It is the Chantry that gave them the choice; live as Nomads, or live in Alienages, unless, of course, we want to rewrite the history because it's inconvenient?  The Chantry declared an Exalted March on the Elves because they refused to allow the Chantry into the Dales.  So, who forced them to live in alienages?

[Rinshikai10]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

azarhal wrote...

The anti-mage sentiment is driven by fear, which turn into hate. People who fear mages interpretated the Chant of Light with an anti-mage bias. The Chant of Light doesn't have an anti-mage bias,  Andraste's teaching (Transfiguration) is all about the Maker hating people who do evil things (steal, abuse, murder, force others to do things against their will).

I would like to point out that the Chantry and Andrastre did not form out of thin aitr...these discussions seem to almost always forget that the people of Thedas 

a) know how bad Tevinter was (and I'm amused that people think the Dalish would hate the Chantry _MORE_ for supposedly destroying the dales than the Tevinter who actually did destroy & enslave them)

can easily see what mages in charge would result in.

That's not fear. That's just prudence

Yes, because being forced to either live in Alienages, or forced to be wandering Nomads that have no real home is vastly superior to having their own corner of the world to reside in.  The Chantry decided, via promises of "If the Chant is sung in all corners of the world, I will return", very rough paraphrase, that all people should follow the Maker, and if not, then it's time for an Exalted March.  The last time I checked, Alienage life, while giving one a home, really isn't butterflies and rainbows.  What about the Gods the Elves worshipped?  Shouldn't they be allowed to follow their own beliefs?  The answer is, according to the Chantry; "No, because the Maker..."  I don't find it hard to believe at all, since the Andrastian Chantry was set up by people who supposedly followed the teachings of the woman that actually had a hand in freeing them in the first place, only to turn around and put them right back in the same position they were before.  Elves are considered less than animals in Thedas, but don't take my word for it, ask the Arl's son in the CE origin.  "You can dress up your pets if you want, but don't pretend this is a proper wedding".

It is not the Chantry who forces the Elves to live in alienages....

The Chantry created the Alienages.

[MisterJB]

The Chantry ordered Andrastian nations to shelter elven refugees after the Dales fell and that is the extent of it.
The Chantry is not to blame for every social inequality and prejudice that exists in Thedas. In fact, no one is keeping the elves in the alienages. They can live wherever they please; most just can't afford it and they risk being attacked by racist humans.

Oh and the Chantry ordered an Exalted March only as the elves lay siege to Val-Royeaux so, who's really to blame for that one?

[Boycott Bioware]

hhh89 wrote...
I'd say that Cullen's view weere influenced more by being caged for weeks, when he was tortured and forced to see both templars and mages tortured and give in to Uldred, becoming abominations or thralls, and not much the Chantry propaganda, since there are templars who don't view mages as weapons or tools. Or are you forgetting what he suffered in DAO?

yes he got caged in DA:O, but what is the basis of his hatred? Not because he got caged and see his friends fallen...but because HE LOVE A MAGE GIRL but he can't...he's a Templar...who tell that Templar can't have relationship with Mages?

the Chantry

What happen in DA:O is just his excuse, same like fenris, they all finding excuses to justify what their doing and what they believe in

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[Boycott Bioware]

secretsandlies wrote...
what you are talking are stereotypes, i am talking about spreading infromation that will influence minds inside and outside entire countries. propaganda that evolve in time into indoctrination. and in few decades it is gona be the only truth people can know because there is no alternative to it.

Propaganda makes stereotypes and it work in other way too.

The action of a person may become an excuse to exterminate the whole race of that person if the propaganda played well.

Propaganda is anything that can be used to justify things. Want to wage war with some people, just use anything to justify it....take advantage of situations and declare war. Want to control people? just make an excuse on why you are needed and make them depend on you, then give some examples, propagate it

Modifié par Qistina, 26 avril 2013 - 04:06 .

[The Elder King]

Qistina wrote...
yes he got caged in DA:O, but what is the basis of his hatred? Not because he got caged and see his friends fallen...but because HE LOVE A MAGE GIRL but he can't...he's a Templar...who tell that Templar can't have relationship with Mages?
the Chantry
What  happen in DA:O is just his excuse, same like fenris, they all finding excuses to justify what their doing and what they believe in

You're wrong, expecially because Cullen isn't always in love with a mage woman, which happens in only a small part of playthrough. The events of DAO influenced his view.
Before Uldred's coup, Cullen believes that mages are treated too harshly (regardless if the Warden is a mage girl, or even a mage); after what happened during Broken Circle, he changed his mind.
You just want to blame the Chantry for Cullen's and Fenris's view, while it was directly shown that Cullen changed his views because of what MAGES did (and not because a love that happened in a few playthrough, or Chantry supposed propaganda, since he believed that mages should be treated better before BC), and Fenris suffered directly under the magister's rule. They're not finding excuse for their opinions of magic. Their opinions are determinated by what they suffered because of magic and mages.
Just to be clear, I don't agree with their opinions, since they are too extremists, but I understand why they think that way.

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

we do not need inefficient and expensive junkies-Templars(and of course we no need their Orlais Chantry propoganda).

mages can do Templars magic block much better and without constant use of expensive Lyrium.

Templars need to use Lyrium every 1-2 weaks to just have their ability's and without Lyrium they go crazy and die after 1-2 month.

(Anders is rare exception to the rules, because of his half-elf mage blood with taint and some dragon blood)

Templars unlike Mages almost have no protection against blood magic, demons and serious spells

Trained Templar Knight can kill only 1-2 weak and untrained aprentice from the circle who can not really fight, but this mage rather immediately frightened and use blood magic(but without experiense it is danderous for mage) or turn himself into a demon....and then, most likely demon will immediately kill/enslave this Templar and some others before he would be killed

in 90 % Templars are never fighting alone, and usually they always go in groups of not less than 3-5 people just against a one untrained Circle aprentice

Anders doesn't have half-elf blood, so I can only assume you refer to Alistair.  By the way, it's NOT a fact that his mother is Fiona, so we don't know that he has elven blood.  That said, what the hell does elf blood have to do with anything?  There's no indication, as far as I know, that elven blood makes any difference in regards to lyrium addiction  (Not that I've ever heard of an elf being a Templar).  But Alistair is NO exception--he never ingested lyrium.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 avril 2013 - 04:42 .

[robertthebard]

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry ordered Andrastian nations to shelter elven refugees after the Dales fell and that is the extent of it.
The Chantry is not to blame for every social inequality and prejudice that exists in Thedas. In fact, no one is keeping the elves in the alienages. They can live wherever they please; most just can't afford it and they risk being attacked by racist humans.

Oh and the Chantry ordered an Exalted March only as the elves lay siege to Val-Royeaux so, who's really to blame for that one?

Exactly how did the Dales fall again?  Oh yeah, the Chantry, trying to assert themselves as the only religion practiced in Thedas so that the Maker will return?  So your position is that there was no war prior to the Exalted March, instead of the Chantry declaring an Exalted March because the war wasn't going so well?  So were the Elves out to conquer Thedas with their new found freedom, or were they simply trying to defend their way of life, including the worship of their own Gods?  I told the guy in Orzammar trying to form a Chantry to take a long walk on a short pier.  How long until the Chantry declares an Exalted March on the Dwarves for daring to deny the Maker access to what is rightfully His?  After all, if the lands granted to the Elves after the war with Tevinter are actually Chantry property, everything must be.  Wasn't there a mention of this in the codex, I don't recall now.

So the Chantry orders Andrastian nations to shelter the refugees that they created by stealing their lands and razing their cities, gee, that's thoughtful of them.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Silfren wrote...

[Anders doesn't have half-elf blood, so I can only assume you refer to Alistair.  By the way, it's NOT a fact that his mother is Fiona, so we don't know that he has elven blood.  That said, what the hell does elf blood have to do with anything?  There's no indication, as far as I know, that elven blood makes any difference in regards to lyrium addiction  (Not that I've ever heard of an elf being a Templar).  But Alistair is NO exception--he never ingested lyrium.

yes Alister not Anders)))
even if elf mage Fiona not his mother, he still have taint and some dragon blood in his veins...and as we see Alister(not in game) not use his Templar powers every time

and we not know maybe he use some lyrium every 2 weaks and month

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 05:02 .

[The Elder King]

Silfren wrote...


Anders doesn't have half-elf blood, so I can only assume you refer to Alistair.  By the way, it's NOT a fact that his mother is Fiona, so we don't know that he has elven blood.  That said, what the hell does elf blood have to do with anything?  There's no indication, as far as I know, that elven blood makes any difference in regards to lyrium addiction  (Not that I've ever heard of an elf being a Templar).  But Alistair is NO exception--he never ingested lyrium.

Considering the dragon blood, he was surely talking about Alistair. Which, as you say, is no exception to the rule. He just never ingested lyrium
The reason he's talking about elven blood is because he believes in elves being better than humans, and something related to them having more magical power or something similar.

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

[Anders doesn't have half-elf blood, so I can only assume you refer to Alistair.  By the way, it's NOT a fact that his mother is Fiona, so we don't know that he has elven blood.  That said, what the hell does elf blood have to do with anything?  There's no indication, as far as I know, that elven blood makes any difference in regards to lyrium addiction  (Not that I've ever heard of an elf being a Templar).  But Alistair is NO exception--he never ingested lyrium.

yes Alister not Anders)))
even if elf mage Fiona not his mother, he still have taint and some dragon blood in his veins...and as we see Alister(not in game) not use his Templar powers every time

and we not know maybe he use some lyrium every 2 weaks and month

There's no reason to think Alistair has ever taken lyrium.  He plainly tells us that because he never took his vows as a templar, he never ingested lyrium.  Since he didn't want to become a Templar in the first place, and abandoned that profession for the Wardens (or possibly became King), why would he suddenly have started taking lyrium?  Especially since he himself clearly was thankful he was never exposed to the addictive substance. 

There is some inconsistency here, as DA lore and Gaider have made it clear that story-wise, templar abilities are derived from lyrium, but we have Alistair saying that lyrium isn't necessary for templar powers.  Between the strength of the rest of the lore, Gaider's statement, and the fact it just wouldn't make sense for templars to randomly develop anti-magic powers without lyrium, I think it's quite safe to conclude that Alistair's statement should be dismissed as invalid. 

That said, once again we have no reason whatsoever to go thinking that Alistair was lying and that he secretly ingests lyrium.  It's speculation completely without any basis.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 avril 2013 - 05:09 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

hhh89 wrote...

The reason he's talking about elven blood is because he believes in elves being better than humans, and something related to them having more magical power or something similar.

1)WUT??? yes i am not like Orlais and Orlais Chantry and i not blame elf for being racist because they not wanted to crossbreading with humans...but this is too far, in magic they maybe better...ancient was better and ancient Tevinters confirmed that

2)she was a damn mage who even cured herself from taint

3)elves always have some magic in their veins this is why many blood mages prefers elven blood for ritualls, this is real fact

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 26 avril 2013 - 05:23 .

[The Elder King]

Dark Korsar wrote...

1)WUT??? yes i am not like Orlais and Orlais Chantry and i not blame elf for being racist because they not wanted to crossbreading with humans...but this is too far, in magic they maybe better...ancient was better and ancient Tevinters confirmed that

2)she was a damn mage who even cured herself from taint

3)elves always have some magic in their veins this is why many blood mages prefers elven blood for ritualls, this is real fact

1)In magic thet're not necessarily better. The Imperium defeated Arlathan, so I'd say that the magisters were stronger than the elven mages. As for ancient=better, I wouldn't put in this way, but yes ancient magisters (and elves) were stronger than current mages.
As for crossbreeding, I don't blame elves for not wanting crossbreeding. The future of their race is at stake. I blame them when they act as racist, the same way I'd blame humans for being racists.
2)Fiona? I didn't read the Calling, but I don't remember that she cured herself, but that something else cured her. Though it was shown that elven magic could slow the taint, since Marethari slowed the Dalish's Warden taint. Without ther intervention, he'd have died before reaching Ostagar.
Which means that elven magic is good against the taint. It doesn't mean that it's better in other fields than human magic.
3)If you believe that elven were all mages, which we have no evidence to say it's 100& real. As for elven blood used in rituals, where was it stated? I don't remember being presend in the games, though I didn't read the books, so I don't know if it's true or not.

I don't necessarily support either the Chantry or Orlais, and yet I don't believe that elves are genetically or naturally better than humans. If we have to claim a race superior by history (which I don't), humans prove to be stronger than elves, since they defeated elves twice.

Modifié par hhh89, 26 avril 2013 - 05:35 .

[Silfren]

Dark Korsar wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

The reason he's talking about elven blood is because he believes in elves being better than humans, and something related to them having more magical power or something similar.

1)WUT??? yes i am not like Orlais and Orlais Chantry and i not blame elf for being racist because they not wanted to crossbreading with humans...but this is too far, in magic they maybe better...ancient was better and ancient Tevinters confirmed that

2)she was a damn mage who even cured herself from taint

3)elves always have some magic in their veins this is why many blood mages prefers elven blood for ritualls, this is real fact

Where is your fact that elves always have some magic in their veins?  Several things you've said are obviously incorrect, being not implied but directly refuted by the game's lore.  So you'll have to excuse me if I generally find most of what you write automatically suspect.

For instance, Fiona didn't cure herself.  As I recall, something happened to her that meant she was freed of the degenerative effects of the taint, in that she was theorized to be immune to the Calling for some reason.  That may or may not mean that the taint itself was cured, although that would explain why she left the Wardens to become the Grand Enchanter--though the lore doesn't say she was cured of being a Warden, just that she may have been the first Warden who doesn't have to go through the Calling.  But she did NOT cure herself.  There's a few theories floating about as to how she was "cured," but it wasn't something she did on her own.

Modifié par Silfren, 26 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[Senya]

robertthebard wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry ordered Andrastian nations to shelter elven refugees after the Dales fell and that is the extent of it.
The Chantry is not to blame for every social inequality and prejudice that exists in Thedas. In fact, no one is keeping the elves in the alienages. They can live wherever they please; most just can't afford it and they risk being attacked by racist humans.

Oh and the Chantry ordered an Exalted March only as the elves lay siege to Val-Royeaux so, who's really to blame for that one?

Exactly how did the Dales fall again?  Oh yeah, the Chantry, trying to assert themselves as the only religion practiced in Thedas so that the Maker will return?  So your position is that there was no war prior to the Exalted March, instead of the Chantry declaring an Exalted March because the war wasn't going so well?  So were the Elves out to conquer Thedas with their new found freedom, or were they simply trying to defend their way of life, including the worship of their own Gods?  I told the guy in Orzammar trying to form a Chantry to take a long walk on a short pier.  How long until the Chantry declares an Exalted March on the Dwarves for daring to deny the Maker access to what is rightfully His?  After all, if the lands granted to the Elves after the war with Tevinter are actually Chantry property, everything must be.  Wasn't there a mention of this in the codex, I don't recall now.

So the Chantry orders Andrastian nations to shelter the refugees that they created by stealing their lands and razing their cities, gee, that's thoughtful of them.

Who was it that said that it was the Chantry trying to force their religion on the Dales? It was the elves. Dalish history is just as questionable as Chantry history. The only thing that can be confirmed with both sources is:

1. The elves refused to aid in a Blight.

2. The elves isolated themselves from any and all humans, creating resentment and suspicion.

3. Relations cooled in part because of the elves refusing to help in a Blight.

4. Border skirmishes erupted.

5. The Dalish won early victories and stretched themselves out too thin as they reached Val Royeaux.

6. Going on the above, the Dales went beyond simple defensive war, which they might have won.

7. The Chantry only declared an Exalted March when Val Royeaux was taken. If it had been a war about spreading Andrastianism, then it would have been declared at the start. This sheds some doubt on the Dalish's accounts of missionaries and Templars.

8. Orlais was the only country involved in the Exalted March.

Going on this, it is reasonable to state that the war would have started with or without the Chantry. It is also safe to say that the Exalted March declaration served little more than a morality boost and that the truce prevented total enslavement and massacre.

This is a GREY world. As such, there is little clear cut good and evil. Word of Gaider is that this was a conflict between races in order to simulate what would realistically happen if different races shared the same world.

Are the elves solely to blame for what happened? Of course not. But they are not entirely innocent.

What can I say? I like pointing out the Grey in the game.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 26 avril 2013 - 06:01 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

you don't get it. it is not about is it truth or lies or how it is exploited.

the very fact that when pc speaks with Cullen and can disagree with his position that mages can not be threated as humans proves that there is no real propaganda at work. there is no propaganda at all. because pc can see alternative and idea that mages are not humans is not ingrained in pc mind as it should be if propaganda would actually at work in human world of Thedas at all.

Fear of power and unknown - yes, ideas and postulates are not soaked into human minds with mothers milk from the very time when they are born.

You may speak of propaganda as some notes on the wall or priests speaches, i speak about real one. When there is no alternative for expression other opionions on the matter because there is can't be another opinions at all.

Hawke is the son of an apostate, so I don't think he would be an example of the average Andrastian. However, we see that there is propoganda against mages, because we continually see and hear in Origins and Dragon Age II how the Chantry preaches that mages are "cursed", which is why we keep hearing Andrastians say that mages and magic are a curse: from Circle mage Keili to Bethany, and even Knight-Commander Meredith. We also hear from Wynne how this has caused Andrastians to react to mages, usually by attempting to murder them if anything goes wrong in their society (because they almost instinctively blame the mages).

[robertthebard]

almostinsane99 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The Chantry ordered Andrastian nations to shelter elven refugees after the Dales fell and that is the extent of it.
The Chantry is not to blame for every social inequality and prejudice that exists in Thedas. In fact, no one is keeping the elves in the alienages. They can live wherever they please; most just can't afford it and they risk being attacked by racist humans.

Oh and the Chantry ordered an Exalted March only as the elves lay siege to Val-Royeaux so, who's really to blame for that one?

Exactly how did the Dales fall again?  Oh yeah, the Chantry, trying to assert themselves as the only religion practiced in Thedas so that the Maker will return?  So your position is that there was no war prior to the Exalted March, instead of the Chantry declaring an Exalted March because the war wasn't going so well?  So were the Elves out to conquer Thedas with their new found freedom, or were they simply trying to defend their way of life, including the worship of their own Gods?  I told the guy in Orzammar trying to form a Chantry to take a long walk on a short pier.  How long until the Chantry declares an Exalted March on the Dwarves for daring to deny the Maker access to what is rightfully His?  After all, if the lands granted to the Elves after the war with Tevinter are actually Chantry property, everything must be.  Wasn't there a mention of this in the codex, I don't recall now.

So the Chantry orders Andrastian nations to shelter the refugees that they created by stealing their lands and razing their cities, gee, that's thoughtful of them.

Who was it that said that it was the Chantry trying to force their religion on the Dales? It was the elves. Dalish history is just as questionable as Chantry history. The only thing that can be confirmed with both sources is:

1. The elves refused to aid in a Blight.

2. The elves isolated themselves from any and all humans, creating resentment and suspicion.

3. Relations cooled in part because of the elves refusing to help in a Blight.

4. Border skirmishes erupted.

5. The Dalish won early victories and stretched themselves out too thin as they reached Val Royeaux.

6. Going on the above, the Dales went beyond simple defensive war, which they might have won.

7. The Chantry only declared an Exalted March when Val Royeaux was taken. If it had been a war about spreading Andrastianism, then it would have been declared at the start. This sheds some doubt on the Dalish's accounts of missionaries and Templars.

8. Orlais was the only country involved in the Exalted March.

Going on this, it is reasonable to state that the war would have started with or without the Chantry. It is also safe to say that the Exalted March declaration served little more than a morality boost and that the truce prevented total enslavement and massacre.

This is a GREY world. As such, there is little clear cut good and evil. Word of Gaider is that this was a conflict between races in order to simulate what would realistically happen if different races shared the same world.

Are the elves solely to blame for what happened? Of course not. But they are not entirely innocent.

What can I say? I like pointing out the Grey in the game.

I'm not pulling from the Dalish Origin though, I'm pulling from Leliana, who has no reason to "color" the history in any particular light.  The war is because Andrastians want to build a Chantry in the Dales, the Exalted March is because they weren't doing so well in the war, obviously, if the elves could sack Val Royeaux.  The truce comes about because with the full force of the Templars behind them, from anywhere even close, not just from Orlais, the Elves were outnumbered and, as we can see, thoroughly decimated, by the literal definition.  Extending the courtesy of being treated as less than animals isn't really much of a "we are no longer at war because we have a truce", but more of a "the combined might of the Chantry just kicked your ass, you can live in squalor in human cities, or become homeless nomads" thing.  The Alienage in Kirkwall didn't even compare to the Alienage in Denerim for squalor though, although I think they had intended it to appear that way based on the way people talk about it, but the Elves are still less than second class citizens.  The Magistrate has no problem covering up what his son is doing, so long as he continues doing it to elven children, because nobody that's not Elven cares.

[RedArmyShogun]

Fear not brothers the Qun will save you

I wanna be the very best
Like no Qunari ever was
To crush them is my real test
To convert them is my cause

I will travel across the land of thedas
Searching far and wide
Each Bass will understand
The power that's the Qun

Beresaad, its you and me
I know it's my destiny
Bas, oh, you'll bend the knee
In a world we must put right
Basra, a heart so corrupt
Our swords will push through

You bow to me and I'll teach you
Bas'ra, gotta catch and educate 'em all

Every challenge along the way
With the Qun I will face
I will battle every day
To claim my rightful place as Arishok

Come with me, the time is right
There's no better day to die
With the Qun we'll win the fight
It's always been our dream

[Heimdall]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is the son of an apostate, so I don't think he would be an example of the average Andrastian. However, we see that there is propoganda against mages, because we continually see and hear in Origins and Dragon Age II how the Chantry preaches that mages are "cursed", which is why we keep hearing Andrastians say that mages and magic are a curse: from Circle mage Keili to Bethany, and even Knight-Commander Meredith. We also hear from Wynne how this has caused Andrastians to react to mages, usually by attempting to murder them if anything goes wrong in their society (because they almost instinctively blame the mages).

  I've seen people demonstrate prejudice against mages, but I've never heard the Chantry preaching that all mages are cursed.  Certainly that they are dangerous, but is that a lie?  Frankly I just think prejudice aginst mages would be rife in the population even without the Chantry.  The Tervinter Imperium ensured that.  Its a mistake to lay all ill feeling for mages on the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Lord Aesir wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke is the son of an apostate, so I don't think he would be an example of the average Andrastian. However, we see that there is propoganda against mages, because we continually see and hear in Origins and Dragon Age II how the Chantry preaches that mages are "cursed", which is why we keep hearing Andrastians say that mages and magic are a curse: from Circle mage Keili to Bethany, and even Knight-Commander Meredith. We also hear from Wynne how this has caused Andrastians to react to mages, usually by attempting to murder them if anything goes wrong in their society (because they almost instinctively blame the mages).

 

I've seen people demonstrate prejudice against mages, but I've never heard the Chantry preaching that all mages are cursed.  Certainly that they are dangerous, but is that a lie?  Frankly I just think prejudice aginst mages would be rife in the population even without the Chantry.  The Tervinter Imperium ensured that.  Its a mistake to lay all ill feeling for mages on the Chantry. 

Except societies without the Chantry are usually tolerant of mages and magic, from the Dalish to the people of Rivain.