656 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

secretsandlies wrote...

no but the fact that she is the mage does.

Right, because if there's anything that we all want to support, it's forced imprisonment based on immutable characteristics. 

[Plaintiff]

In Exile wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

There's a difference between expected and forced. Wynne is an Andstratian. Do you think that this somehow gives the templars moral authority to imprison her in a Circle?

If she truly believes in the doctrine of the Chantry, then the expectation is that she will live in the Circle willingly, of her own accord.

If she won't do that, then she's obviously not an "Andrastian" as the Chantry understands the term.

At no point did I say that believing in Andraste automatically entails being a follower of the Chantry's laws.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ah, I see.  So, mage reign of terror.  Got it.

Because not wanting the Chantry to meddle in every aspect of your life automatically makes you a tyrannical despot.

The question was whether there could be a peace.  Lobsel has quite clearly stated that the only way he would accept a peace is the utter defeat of the Templars, and Mage power over what the Chantry can and can't do.

That, to me, is a mage reign of terror.  Or, to use your words, the rule of a tyrannical despot.

What Lobsel stated and what you state are not the same thing.

He said the mages should not be forced to capitulate to the Chantry. That is not the same as saying that the Chantry should be forced to capitulate to the mages.

Since the Templars are, as far as can be known, hellbent on killing every mage, I think it's fair to say that their defeat is necessary, unless you think they're going to willingly agree to a massive restructuring?

And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

[Noctis Augustus]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Mages are indeed people, and I would expect them to abide by the dictates of the religion, or at least to respect them.

The way I read Lobsel's posts, is that he feels the mages need not do so, and in fact, should NOT do so.  I find that a bit troubling.

Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Mages are indeed people, and I would expect them to abide by the dictates of the religion, or at least to respect them.

The way I read Lobsel's posts, is that he feels the mages need not do so, and in fact, should NOT do so.  I find that a bit troubling.

Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

Really?  Do you really mean that?

Because there are many religions in the real world.  Most people are members only of one.  Does that mean that they should not respect the beliefs of any other religion?

That's how things like religious wars - Crusades, Jihads, or in Thedas, Exalted Marches - begin.  By that logic, the Chantry and every Andrastian nation should be exterminating every elf they can find - as well as every Dwarf and Qunari.

[Sir JK]

In Exile wrote...

Wait, what? The elven historian is a racist supremacist? Which codex was that?

It's partly alluded to in Vallasin: Blood writing and again in City Elves. In both cases the Dalish versions of course.

But the most damning piece is in Arlathan: part one and The Dalish elves.

It's in the last one he outright states that all human kingdoms will fall and the elves must be ready to step up and take their place. And in the others he's being extremely dismissive towards non-dalish.

[Noctis Augustus]

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ah, I see.  So, mage reign of terror.  Got it.

Because not wanting the Chantry to meddle in every aspect of your life automatically makes you a tyrannical despot.

The question was whether there could be a peace.  Lobsel has quite clearly stated that the only way he would accept a peace is the utter defeat of the Templars, and Mage power over what the Chantry can and can't do.

That, to me, is a mage reign of terror.  Or, to use your words, the rule of a tyrannical despot.

What Lobsel stated and what you state are not the same thing.

He said the mages should not be forced to capitulate to the Chantry. That is not the same as saying that the Chantry should be forced to capitulate to the mages.

Since the Templars are, as far as can be known, hellbent on killing every mage, I think it's fair to say that their defeat is necessary, unless you think they're going to willingly agree to a massive restructuring?

And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

Therefore I/we want to destroy the Chantry. What's the problem?

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 27 avril 2013 - 04:03 .

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Does anyone honestly think the world would have stood by and watched the Orlesian Empire use the Divine as their puppet to launch an Exalted March to steal the Elven lands if everyone didnt utterly hate them for being vain and conceited?

Yes I think it's perfectly plausible. We've seen similar incidents in our own history, where the suffering of a country was blamed on a minority group that was not actually responsible.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 27 avril 2013 - 04:03 .

[TJPags]

ibbikiookami wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ah, I see.  So, mage reign of terror.  Got it.

Because not wanting the Chantry to meddle in every aspect of your life automatically makes you a tyrannical despot.

The question was whether there could be a peace.  Lobsel has quite clearly stated that the only way he would accept a peace is the utter defeat of the Templars, and Mage power over what the Chantry can and can't do.

That, to me, is a mage reign of terror.  Or, to use your words, the rule of a tyrannical despot.

What Lobsel stated and what you state are not the same thing.

He said the mages should not be forced to capitulate to the Chantry. That is not the same as saying that the Chantry should be forced to capitulate to the mages.

Since the Templars are, as far as can be known, hellbent on killing every mage, I think it's fair to say that their defeat is necessary, unless you think they're going to willingly agree to a massive restructuring?

And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

Therefore I/we want to destroy the Chantry. What's the problem?

There is no problem, actually.  That's your view, and that's fine. 

I disagree with it on so many levels, but it's fine to have that view.

Is it equally okay for me to want to eradicate every mage in Thedas?

[In Exile]

Plaintiff wrote...
If she truly believes in the doctrine of the Chantry, then the expectation is that she will live in the Circle willingly, of her own accord.

If she won't do that, then she's obviously not an "Andrastian" as the Chantry understands the term.

At no point did I say that believing in Andraste automatically entails being a follower of the Chantry's laws.

My point was different: that expection is not coercion. Maybe Wynne is a bad Andrastian. Maybe she disagrees with that part of dogma. Whatever. What matters is the gulf between the Chantry saying you should lock yourself up and the Chantry forcefully locking you up. 

There's a big difference between the mages breaking the military power of the Chantry and imposing terms and actually uprooting a religious organization that all of Thedas' mundanes believe in. 

If there's anything that's going to cause a perpetual religious holy war, it's that. 

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...
Really?  Do you really mean that?

I absolutely mean it. It's one of my most fervent beliefs.

Because there are many religions in the real world.  Most people are members only of one.  Does that mean that they should not respect the beliefs of any other religion?

Yes. And it also means that a person who doesn't subscribe to any religion doesn't have to respect any of their beliefs.

I do not respect the Christian belief that homosexuality is a sin, I don't respect the Muslim belief that women should keep their heads covered, I don't respect the Jewish belief that eating pork is wrong. I could go on for days and days about the many, many, many religious beliefs that I do not and never will respect.

That's how things like religious wars - Crusades, Jihads, or in Thedas, Exalted Marches - begin.  By that logic, the Chantry and every Andrastian nation should be exterminating every elf they can find - as well as every Dwarf and Qunari.

No, religious wars start because religions can't mind their own damn business. Respecting each other is not required for that.

[Noctis Augustus]

TJPags wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ah, I see.  So, mage reign of terror.  Got it.

Because not wanting the Chantry to meddle in every aspect of your life automatically makes you a tyrannical despot.

The question was whether there could be a peace.  Lobsel has quite clearly stated that the only way he would accept a peace is the utter defeat of the Templars, and Mage power over what the Chantry can and can't do.

That, to me, is a mage reign of terror.  Or, to use your words, the rule of a tyrannical despot.

What Lobsel stated and what you state are not the same thing.

He said the mages should not be forced to capitulate to the Chantry. That is not the same as saying that the Chantry should be forced to capitulate to the mages.

Since the Templars are, as far as can be known, hellbent on killing every mage, I think it's fair to say that their defeat is necessary, unless you think they're going to willingly agree to a massive restructuring?

And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

Therefore I/we want to destroy the Chantry. What's the problem?

There is no problem, actually.  That's your view, and that's fine. 

I disagree with it on so many levels, but it's fine to have that view.

Is it equally okay for me to want to eradicate every mage in Thedas?

Of course. If you have the power and you want to do it everything else is meaningless.

[In Exile]

Sir JK wrote...
It's partly alluded to in Vallasin: Blood writing and again in City Elves. In both cases the Dalish versions of course.

But the most damning piece is in Arlathan: part one and The Dalish elves.

It's in the last one he outright states that all human kingdoms will fall and the elves must be ready to step up and take their place. And in the others he's being extremely dismissive towards non-dalish.

I'm just going to quote parts of the codex to see if I can appreciate which aspects you're suggest underlie the views.

From the Vallasin codex:

It sets us apart from the shemlen, and from the elves who have thrown their lot in with them. It reminds us that we will never again surrender our traditions and beliefs.

From the City Elves codex:

We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves. They are weak and afraid--afraid of the unfamiliar, afraid of our life of wandering. Above all, they are afraid even to hope that one day we may have a home of our own.

I suppose that would be his (or the Dalish) distain/sense of superiority as compared to their CE counterparts. 

From Arlathan Part One:

But the humans brought worse things than war with them. Our ancestors proved susceptible to human diseases, and for the first time in history, elves died of natural causes. What's more, those elves who spent time bartering and negotiating with humans found themselves aging, tainted by the humans' brash and impatient lives. Many believed that the ancient gods had judged them unworthy of their long lives and cast them down among the quicklings. Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities. The ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble the civilization.

Finally, from the Dalish Elves:

We gather every ten years for the Arlathvhen, to retell the ancient stories and keep them alive. For when the human kingdoms are gone, we must be ready to teach the others what it means to be elves.

I'm not sure what the make of the "when the human kingdoms are gone" like, but their absolute distain for the CEs is pretty shocking. Weren't the Dalish the former nobility of the Dales, by and large? 

Modifié par In Exile, 27 avril 2013 - 04:12 .

[TJPags]

ibbikiookami wrote...

TJPags wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ah, I see.  So, mage reign of terror.  Got it.

Because not wanting the Chantry to meddle in every aspect of your life automatically makes you a tyrannical despot.

The question was whether there could be a peace.  Lobsel has quite clearly stated that the only way he would accept a peace is the utter defeat of the Templars, and Mage power over what the Chantry can and can't do.

That, to me, is a mage reign of terror.  Or, to use your words, the rule of a tyrannical despot.

What Lobsel stated and what you state are not the same thing.

He said the mages should not be forced to capitulate to the Chantry. That is not the same as saying that the Chantry should be forced to capitulate to the mages.

Since the Templars are, as far as can be known, hellbent on killing every mage, I think it's fair to say that their defeat is necessary, unless you think they're going to willingly agree to a massive restructuring?

And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

Therefore I/we want to destroy the Chantry. What's the problem?

There is no problem, actually.  That's your view, and that's fine. 

I disagree with it on so many levels, but it's fine to have that view.

Is it equally okay for me to want to eradicate every mage in Thedas?

Of course. If you have the power and you want to do it everything else is meaningless.

See, YOU I like

[nightscrawl]

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

Really?  Do you really mean that?

Because there are many religions in the real world.  Most people are members only of one.  Does that mean that they should not respect the beliefs of any other religion?

That's how things like religious wars - Crusades, Jihads, or in Thedas, Exalted Marches - begin.  By that logic, the Chantry and every Andrastian nation should be exterminating every elf they can find - as well as every Dwarf and Qunari.

He didn't say "beliefs," he said "dictates." There is a huge difference there.

You can certainly respect someone else's right to believe what they believe, as long as they don't try to force their own belief on you (which is a problem with most religions), and not feel compelled to follow their religious dictates.


[edit]
Sigh, never mind. Read the follow up post. Word choice is important.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 avril 2013 - 04:17 .

[dragonflight288]

In Exile wrote...

Weren't the Dalish the former nobility of the Dales, by and large?

Lanaya in origins says that the Keepers are descended from the nobles, but that's not always the case. Lanaya was a city elf and a mage who was taken in by the clan. She competed with the other mages to become Zathrian's First, and succeeded.

[Althix]

oh Plaintiff you really should turn your gaze on Chaos Gods like i did.

and also religious wars starts when one particular institute of fate want to expand their business. I mean look at crusaders, wealthy ones. They gave away their lands to church "for safe keeping" when they gone crusading. How many of them returned? profit.

[Sir JK]

In Exile: You caught the same things yes. And yes, the Dalish do claim that.

Another interesting experience is playing through the Brecilian forest as a human noble (which I just did) or city elf and not agreeing with the Dalish (Zathrian, Lanaya and Sarel) when they talk about the elves... they're not exactly being kind and constantly revert back to communal guilt for all humans.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...
And why should the Chantry agree to allow their armed guards to be disbanded or otherwise utterly defeated?  To think the Chantry would agree to that is the same as the Chantry capitulating.  Templars and the Chantry are not separate - the Templars are PART of the Chantry.

No they aren't, not anymore. They seceded from the Chantry during the events of Asunder.

When you force a bully to stop bullying others, does that make you a bully? If taking away the Chantry's means of violently subjugating non-believers is forcing them to capitulate, then it's a capitulation I can get behind.

Lobsel has flat out said that there can be no peace so long as the Templar Order exists.  That causes a problem, don't you think?

Nope. The Templar Order consists primarily of violent zealots that the Chantry uses to enforce its tyrannical regime across the continent. Dismantling it can only be a good thing.

[Althix]

soo... you want to replace Chantry with.. what?

*whispering* cult of holy desire demon will do...

[LobselVith8]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Dalish sealed their own date when they stood by during the Second Blight and did nothing to help the other races fight the Darkspawn, plain and simple. That their reasons for doing so (avoiding human contact to restore their fabled lost immortality) were entirely selfish didnt help.

The Dalish didn't help an empire that was conquering its neighbors since its inception? An empire that was having issues with the Dales, which prevented Emperor Drakon from conquering the Free Marches? I'm not really surprised, considering that the Orlesian Empire posed a threat to the Dales and their sovereignty with the intent of creating an empire under the Maker, and spreading the Chant to the four corners of the world.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Does anyone honestly think the world would have stood by and watched the Orlesian Empire use the Divine as their puppet to launch an Exalted March to steal the Elven lands if everyone didnt utterly hate them for being vain and conceited? If the Elves had pulled their weight against the Blight, like every other race and nation, then it would not have been silently condoned by the entire world to conquer their lands.

The Epilogue on the Dalish clans who helped during the Fifth Blight disprove this notion entirely. I'm not surprised that religious Andrastians hate "heathens" who don't follow the Maker.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

They had their shot at freedom under Andrastian society. And they squandered it in pursuit of a selfish myth. THAT'S why they live in abject poverty under the thumb of humans.

I don't find it selfish for the elves to reclaim their culture, the worship of the Creators, or an attempt to regain their immortality. Their neighbor was conquering other lands, and enforcing the worship of Drakon's particular Cult of Andraste as the national religion. Why would the Dales welcome these conquerors with open arms? The elves of the Dales could have given up their culture and their religion to follow the Chantry of Andraste, but refused to do so.

[Plaintiff]

secretsandlies wrote...

soo... you want to replace Chantry with.. what?

*whispering* cult of holy desire demon will do...

I don't want to replace the Chantry with anything, it is not my place to tell other people what they should believe or why. I have no interest in establishing a new dominant religion.

Hell, the Chantry can stay, for all I care. It just can't have an army anymore. We don't let religions command military force in the real world, so why would we accept it in Thedas?

[BlueMagitek]

Sir JK wrote...

In Exile: You caught the same things yes. And yes, the Dalish do claim that.

Another interesting experience is playing through the Brecilian forest as a human noble (which I just did) or city elf and not agreeing with the Dalish (Zathrian, Lanaya and Sarel) when they talk about the elves... they're not exactly being kind and constantly revert back to communal guilt for all humans.

I actually recently finished a playthrough of DA:O as a City Elf, and the Dalish were certainly the most racist in the game if you don't agree with them.  Even if you hate humans and brought a golem, dwarf & elf/qunari, you get compared to your 'Shemlen masters' and it is vile throughout.  Only the First and the elf whose wife is missing are any sort of tolerable characters. 

Even captured in Fort Drakon a city elf can somehow get into the Guard, but among the Dalish?  And heaven forbid that your Andrastian City Elf dares to question what the Dalish taught.

[Althix]

In real world religion don't need an army. Because it's grip on people is rather strong with out military force. Church never fought any war with it's own army. Because they have zealots to fight for them.

In Thedas zealots left the church alone. And look what we have, Chantry first of all the martyr - because some ****** possessed abomination blow the local church up.
No matter who wins, Templars or Mages, Chantry will still be in strong position, if not even stronger.

So in order to destroy grip of church in Thedas, you must become a monster yourself. Tyrant and butcher of innocents. Are you up for a task?

[TJPags]

nightscrawl wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

Really?  Do you really mean that?

Because there are many religions in the real world.  Most people are members only of one.  Does that mean that they should not respect the beliefs of any other religion?

That's how things like religious wars - Crusades, Jihads, or in Thedas, Exalted Marches - begin.  By that logic, the Chantry and every Andrastian nation should be exterminating every elf they can find - as well as every Dwarf and Qunari.

He didn't say "beliefs," he said "dictates." There is a huge difference there.

You can certainly respect someone else's right to believe what they believe, as long as they don't try to force their own belief on you (which is a problem with most religions), and not feel compelled to follow their religious dictates.


[edit]
Sigh, never mind. Read the follow up post. Word choice is important.

"Dictates" stem from "beliefs" and are imposed on "believers".

Refusing to respect someone's beliefs, or the dictates they follow as a result of those beliefs, is pretty damn intolerant.