656 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Plaintiff wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

soo... you want to replace Chantry with.. what?

*whispering* cult of holy desire demon will do...

I don't want to replace the Chantry with anything, it is not my place to tell other people what they should believe or why. I have no interest in establishing a new dominant religion.

Hell, the Chantry can stay, for all I care. It just can't have an army anymore. We don't let religions command military force in the real world, so why would we accept it in Thedas?

Because Thedas is not the real world.

And if Andrastians believe their church needs an army, saying it can't have one is indeed telling them what to believe.

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Lanaya in origins says that the Keepers are descended from the nobles, but that's not always the case. Lanaya was a city elf and a mage who was taken in by the clan. She competed with the other mages to become Zathrian's First, and succeeded.

I'm aware of that, but what I mean is that the Dalish keep a rather class-based society doing, and there's a worrying cultural undertone to the "people meant to serve" line. How would they be meant to serve? The elves that were forced into ghettoes were free in the Dales, right? 

But what that Dalish codex is saying suggests that they were somehow lower class, or that they were treated in such a way in the Dales as to make it so that they "want to be controlled" (or whatever the exact line was). That's something very worrying. 

Sir JK wrote...
Another interesting experience is playing through the Brecilian forest as a human noble (which I just did) or city elf and not agreeing with the Dalish (Zathrian, Lanaya and Sarel) when they talk about the elves... they're not exactly being kind and constantly revert back to communal guilt for all humans.

My personal dislike of much of what the Dalish stand for comes from my CE playthrough. As an elf, I'd say the Dalish are better than the humans only because their society happens to be be elven, so at the very least their racism is directed outward. 

BlueMagitek wrote...
I actually recently finished a playthrough of DA:O as a City Elf, and the Dalish were certainly the most racist in the game if you don't agree with them.  Even if you hate humans and brought a golem, dwarf & elf/qunari, you get compared to your 'Shemlen masters' and it is vile throughout.  Only the First and the elf whose wife is missing are any sort of tolerable characters.  

There were bad moments.

Even captured in Fort Drakon a city elf can somehow get into the Guard, but among the Dalish?  And heaven forbid that your Andrastian City Elf dares to question what the Dalish taught.

What parts are these? I never had a CE who was anywhere close to Andrastian. 

[Senya]

^^

If the Templars are gone, then there must be some group to oversee and deal with magical crimes and it cannot be solely Mage or solely non-Mage.

My main problem with what Lob argues is the implication that the Mages should submit to no authority if there's any hint of Mages not being treated fairly. Well, outside the Circle, they will be living in countries with civil laws and a reasonable suspicion towrds Mages. They will need to adhere to civil magistrates and the laws of the country.

But, who will enforce those laws? It will need to be an organization composed of Mages and non-Mages. This comes from the demonstrated fact that Mages, particularly after winning a war, will feel solidarity for each other and a need to prove they have no problems whatsoever so the Mages that fall into blood magic and questionable dealings with demons can well be overlooked. All it takes is someone in a sufficiently high position like First Enchanter Orsino, who ignored Quentin and allowed him to murder to avoid backlash.

It is a group mentality that is entirely human. It's, "You're one of us, we have your back."

Rivain must has a system where their Seers are apprehended, otherwise they have no accountability. The Dalish seem to have a law against blood magic and demonology with the code drilled into them that they must hunt their own Keeper should they turn into an abomination. This is probelmatic when someone like Zathrian hides what he's doing and he's become someone who is unquestioned by others.

Then there is Tevinter, on which the Circle were based off of and is closer to the rest of Thedas in culture than Rivain or the Dalish. Mages given the sole power to police themselves there eventually became Magisters.

There is also the problem of having only non-Mages police the Mages as seen in the Templars, so I don't need to go into that.

City Guards are not trained for this and if they did, to power Templar abilities effectively, they need lyrium, according to Word of Gaider, which trumps Word of Alistair.

So, there needs to be a group of Mages and non-Mages with access to lyrium to either hand over those Mages who are corrupt or those who attack Mages to the courts. Or they will need to be the court themselves.

This group, is called the Inquisition.

In this game, one of your responsibilities is to mete out justice. Any favoritism to any one group is dereliction of duty.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 27 avril 2013 - 05:02 .

[robertthebard]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Dalish sealed their own date when they stood by during the Second Blight and did nothing to help the other races fight the Darkspawn, plain and simple. That their reasons for doing so (avoiding human contact to restore their fabled lost immortality) were entirely selfish didnt help.

Does anyone honestly think the world would have stood by and watched the Orlesian Empire use the Divine as their puppet to launch an Exalted March to steal the Elven lands if everyone didnt utterly hate them for being vain and conceited? If the Elves had pulled their weight against the Blight, like every other race and nation, then it would not have been silently condoned by the entire world to conquer their lands.

They had their shot at freedom under Andrastian society. And they squandered it in pursuit of a selfish myth. THAT'S why they live in abject poverty under the thumb of humans.

Ah, so that's why Orlais moved in and conquered Ferelden too.  I understand now.  Did the Free Marches also stand back and watch?  Because, you know, Orlais took them over too.  So it didn't really have anything to do with trying to build an Empire, just revenge for the Blight?

[BlueMagitek]

In Exile wrote...
What parts are these? I never had a CE who was anywhere close to Andrastian. 

If you are captured by Loghain's aide, you wind up in Fort Drakon.  One of the means of getting out is to "join" the guard.  No one bats an eye at an elf joining up.  You can even be commended for being so eager.

As for the latter, it mostly comes up by questioning the Dalish Storyteller's tale, as that goes against what a City Elf might know from the Chantry.

I find that strange, though.  Most of my characters are Andrastian by the nature of everyone being Andrastian in Thedas.  Except for the Dwarvish and Dalish origins, that is.  Each also has varying degrees of Andrastian (a mage won't open up a Chantry in Orzammar, for example).  I took the CE to be the most religiously inclined of them all, given that s/he would have less to cling to than, say, the Human Noble.

[robertthebard]

TJPags wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Nobody, mage or otherwise, should be expected to abide by or respect the dictates of any religion unless they specifically choose to be a member of that religion.

Really?  Do you really mean that?

Because there are many religions in the real world.  Most people are members only of one.  Does that mean that they should not respect the beliefs of any other religion?

That's how things like religious wars - Crusades, Jihads, or in Thedas, Exalted Marches - begin.  By that logic, the Chantry and every Andrastian nation should be exterminating every elf they can find - as well as every Dwarf and Qunari.

He didn't say "beliefs," he said "dictates." There is a huge difference there.

You can certainly respect someone else's right to believe what they believe, as long as they don't try to force their own belief on you (which is a problem with most religions), and not feel compelled to follow their religious dictates.


[edit]
Sigh, never mind. Read the follow up post. Word choice is important.

"Dictates" stem from "beliefs" and are imposed on "believers".

Refusing to respect someone's beliefs, or the dictates they follow as a result of those beliefs, is pretty damn intolerant.

Color me pretty damn intolerant then, because there are some religious dictates, from a couple of major religions, that I neither respect, nor desire to be associated with.  There are, even more specifically, dictates from specific churches that I neither respect nor want to see carried out.  In the Middle Ages, I would have probably already been tortured, and either burned at the stake or drowned by the Church.  Hell, back then, the Church burned scholars at the stake for disagreeing with Church Doctrine.  That's a dictate I don't respect.  But hey, I'm just being intolerant.

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you are captured by Loghain's aide, you wind up in Fort Drakon.  One of the means of getting out is to "join" the guard.  No one bats an eye at an elf joining up.  You can even be commended for being so eager.

The rarity of elves in the guard suggests something else to me.

BlueMagitek wrote...

As for the latter, it mostly comes up by questioning the Dalish Storyteller's tale, as that goes against what a City Elf might know from the Chantry.

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

BlueMagitek wrote...

I find that strange, though.  Most of my characters are Andrastian by the nature of everyone being Andrastian in Thedas.  Except for the Dwarvish and Dalish origins, that is.  Each also has varying degrees of Andrastian (a mage won't open up a Chantry in Orzammar, for example).  I took the CE to be the most religiously inclined of them all, given that s/he would have less to cling to than, say, the Human Noble.

I actually found the Denerim Alienage background I chose for my Surana Warden, as well as his upbringing in the Circle of Ferelden, as perfect reasons not to be religiously Andrastian. Although I think being a mage is a suficient enough reason, honestly.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

I don't recall the City elf version enough to comment on it, but as a Andrastian human noble the level of casual racism Sarel, Zathrian and even Lanaya, to a degree, level against you if you question parts of their side of the story is pretty jaw dropping. At best they're condesending and superior, at worst they're pretty much lumping the human's communal guilt on you, calling you a lesser being (not in those words) with voices dripping acid. It's way beyond just being upset.

They're perfectly civil as long as you accept their story and just listen to them. But question it and the niceties end. Zathrians treatment of the werewolves also does him no favours.

[Noctis Augustus]

Sir JK wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

I don't recall the City elf version enough to comment on it, but as a Andrastian human noble the level of casual racism Sarel, Zathrian and even Lanaya, to a degree, level against you if you question parts of their side of the story is pretty jaw dropping. At best they're condesending and superior, at worst they're pretty much lumping the human's communal guilt on you, calling you a lesser being (not in those words) with voices dripping acid. It's way beyond just being upset.

They're perfectly civil as long as you accept their story and just listen to them. But question it and the niceties end. Zathrians treatment of the werewolves also does him no favours.

What would you expect? It's like saying to a Jew that you question parts of their extermination in **** Germany.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The rarity of elves in the guard suggests something else to me.

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

I actually found the Denerim Alienage background I chose for my Surana Warden, as well as his upbringing in the Circle of Ferelden, as perfect reasons not to be religiously Andrastian. Although I think being a mage is a suficient enough reason, honestly.

Except that it happens.

That's so unfortunate, I can see why he would take his frustration out on outsiders who have a treaty with his people.  For daring to question a story which was passed down orally.  Those are never rife with falsities. 

Well your bias has been shown quite often when it comes to the various Andrastian faiths, so I'm really not surprised.

[robertthebard]

BlueMagitek wrote...

In Exile wrote...
What parts are these? I never had a CE who was anywhere close to Andrastian. 

If you are captured by Loghain's aide, you wind up in Fort Drakon.  One of the means of getting out is to "join" the guard.  No one bats an eye at an elf joining up.  You can even be commended for being so eager.

As for the latter, it mostly comes up by questioning the Dalish Storyteller's tale, as that goes against what a City Elf might know from the Chantry.

I find that strange, though.  Most of my characters are Andrastian by the nature of everyone being Andrastian in Thedas.  Except for the Dwarvish and Dalish origins, that is.  Each also has varying degrees of Andrastian (a mage won't open up a Chantry in Orzammar, for example).  I took the CE to be the most religiously inclined of them all, given that s/he would have less to cling to than, say, the Human Noble.

Oh yeah, the plot device to escape on your own.  So did you blink when your dwarf was accepted as a member of the guard, or your Dalish Elf?  Hey, here's a funny, what about your mage?  Plot device does not equal standard procedure.

[dragonflight288]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The rarity of elves in the guard suggests something else to me.

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

I actually found the Denerim Alienage background I chose for my Surana Warden, as well as his upbringing in the Circle of Ferelden, as perfect reasons not to be religiously Andrastian. Although I think being a mage is a suficient enough reason, honestly.

Except that it happens.

That's so unfortunate, I can see why he would take his frustration out on outsiders who have a treaty with his people.  For daring to question a story which was passed down orally.  Those are never rife with falsities. 

Well your bias has been shown quite often when it comes to the various Andrastian faiths, so I'm really not surprised.

As for the city elves in the guard, I attribute part of that to City Elf culture. City elves are quite cruel to each other when it looks like one of them is getting ahead. A city elf moves out of an alienage, the others don't like it, and when the racism of humans burn down the shop and home of the elf leaving the alienage, they come back, and join the mutual suffering of the alienage, where they are greeted with open arms.

City Elves seem spineless in my opinion. They are happy to stand up for one another up to the point where it'll cause problems for the alienage. A city elf warden is treated like a pariah and is blamed for the purge Howe committed, and everyone ignores that all the City Elf was doing was trying to keep their woman from being the 'entertainment' for a spoiled little lordling.

And while I agree that the oral tradition cannot be trusted completely when it comes to the Dalish, the Dalish absolutely refuse to allow a single question about their teachings and beliefs. Sarel the storyteller goes out of his way to make it clear that he blames all shemlen for the suffering of the Dalish by telling the story of the creation of the Dalish BEFORE agreeing to give information regarding the forest. Question their side of things even a little, and you are made guilty by association, even if you're a dwarf, for crimes committed centuries before the warden lived.

Kind of like what Zathrian does with the werewolves. Dalish culture encourages self-righteousness and snobbery to anything not-dalish.

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

City Elves seem spineless in my opinion. They are happy to stand up for one another up to the point where it'll cause problems for the alienage. A city elf warden is treated like a pariah and is blamed for the purge Howe committed, and everyone ignores that all the City Elf was doing was trying to keep their woman from being the 'entertainment' for a spoiled little lordling.

Kind of like what Zathrian does with the werewolves. Dalish culture encourages self-righteousness and snobbery to anything not-dalish.

I would not be too harsh upon the City Elves.  If they act as a group, they are often purged.  So they'll stand up for one another until it looks like that person may cause harm to the unit as a whole.  Is it weak?  Well, yes.  But the alternative is typically death and making it worse for the next generation of City Elves.  But yes, it was quite satisfying watching Vaughn die horribly.

I agree completely.  A pity I wasn't playing a dwarf so I could side with the werewolves. :/

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you are captured by Loghain's aide, you wind up in Fort Drakon.  One of the means of getting out is to "join" the guard.  No one bats an eye at an elf joining up.  You can even be commended for being so eager.

The rarity of elves in the guard suggests something else to me.

BlueMagitek wrote...

As for the latter, it mostly comes up by questioning the Dalish Storyteller's tale, as that goes against what a City Elf might know from the Chantry.

The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.

BlueMagitek wrote...

I find that strange, though.  Most of my characters are Andrastian by the nature of everyone being Andrastian in Thedas.  Except for the Dwarvish and Dalish origins, that is.  Each also has varying degrees of Andrastian (a mage won't open up a Chantry in Orzammar, for example).  I took the CE to be the most religiously inclined of them all, given that s/he would have less to cling to than, say, the Human Noble.

I actually found the Denerim Alienage background I chose for my Surana Warden, as well as his upbringing in the Circle of Ferelden, as perfect reasons not to be religiously Andrastian. Although I think being a mage is a suficient enough reason, honestly.

There does happen to be a Chantry priest advocating for them, but that doesn't fit your ideology that all humans, partiuclarly Andrastians, are evil.

[In Exile]

BlueMagitek wrote...

If you are captured by Loghain's aide, you wind up in Fort Drakon.  One of the means of getting out is to "join" the guard.  No one bats an eye at an elf joining up.  You can even be commended for being so eager.

Oh, I should have specified. That part I was aware of. I mean the elven part.

As for the latter, it mostly comes up by questioning the Dalish Storyteller's tale, as that goes against what a City Elf might know from the Chantry.

I see. I didn't associate that with being Andrastian. For my CE, it was a matter of not believing the Dalish were somehow special.

I find that strange, though.  Most of my characters are Andrastian by the nature of everyone being Andrastian in Thedas.  Except for the Dwarvish and Dalish origins, that is.  Each also has varying degrees of Andrastian (a mage won't open up a Chantry in Orzammar, for example).  I took the CE to be the most religiously inclined of them all, given that s/he would have less to cling to than, say, the Human Noble.

To me, the mage and CE are the least likely to care for religion. My CEs are very much anti-human rebels. Not per se racists, but certainly hateful of human society. No reason to adopt it. And for mages it's similar. Why would a mage willingly believe in a religion that all but says you are second-class citizens and certianly treats you like it?

dragonflight288 wrote...
City Elves seem spineless in my opinion. They are happy to stand up for one another up to the point where it'll cause problems for the alienage. A city elf warden is treated like a pariah and is blamed for the purge Howe committed, and everyone ignores that all the City Elf was doing was trying to keep their woman from being the 'entertainment' for a spoiled little lordling.

Not that I disagree with your take on the Dalish, but I think you're too rough on the CEs.

The CEs are an abused group. And what the CE did led to drastic and radical consequences for everyone. It's easy to be a rebel when you have some kind of power, but for most CEs, a riot means getting raped and butchered at the hands of Ferelden's troops. 

[TJPags]

robertthebard wrote...

Color me pretty damn intolerant then, because there are some religious dictates, from a couple of major religions, that I neither respect, nor desire to be associated with.  There are, even more specifically, dictates from specific churches that I neither respect nor want to see carried out.  In the Middle Ages, I would have probably already been tortured, and either burned at the stake or drowned by the Church.  Hell, back then, the Church burned scholars at the stake for disagreeing with Church Doctrine.  That's a dictate I don't respect.  But hey, I'm just being intolerant.

Your attempt to cloak it in sarcasm notwithstanding, you are indeed intolerant.

You seem to find it acceptable.  That's nice for you.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

There does happen to be a Chantry priest advocating for them, but that doesn't fit your ideology that all humans, partiuclarly Andrastians, are evil. 

I find the teachings of the Chantry to be repugnant and monstrous. I don't think all members of the Chantry or the templars are evil, though.

[robertthebard]

TJPags wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Color me pretty damn intolerant then, because there are some religious dictates, from a couple of major religions, that I neither respect, nor desire to be associated with.  There are, even more specifically, dictates from specific churches that I neither respect nor want to see carried out.  In the Middle Ages, I would have probably already been tortured, and either burned at the stake or drowned by the Church.  Hell, back then, the Church burned scholars at the stake for disagreeing with Church Doctrine.  That's a dictate I don't respect.  But hey, I'm just being intolerant.

Your attempt to cloak it in sarcasm notwithstanding, you are indeed intolerant.

You seem to find it acceptable.  That's nice for you.

Yep, because I feel that respect is earned, not given.  I don't respect the intolerance that is taught in religion, Love they neighbor as thyself.  This is what Christ allegedly taught, right?  Except that, it's actually more "Love thy neighbor as thyself, unless he's different from you.  Is your neighbor gay?  You have every right to declare that he/she can or cannot be married, because God said so.  So no, I don't have to respect the intolerance of religious people, and not doing so doesn't make me intolerant.  They do, of course, have the right to hold an opinion, but not the right to force their opinion on other people.  I don't have to respect wars of conversion.  If people want to worship so and so's God, they'll do so, why force it at the point of a sword, or the barrel of a gun?

I love my mom, I really do, and I have the utmost respect for her, but I don't respect some of her religious beliefs, and will, if it comes up, tell her so.  She was shocked to find that I think gay people should be able to get married if they want to, or that I honestly believe that American soldiers that die for our freedom should have the right to have their religion recognized on their tombstones in Arlington National Cemetery.  So you see, the sarcasm in the above post is saying that refusing to respect religious dictates is intolerance, especially when the dictate is to be intolerant of other people, and their beliefs.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

There does happen to be a Chantry priest advocating for them, but that doesn't fit your ideology that all humans, partiuclarly Andrastians, are evil. 

I find the teachings of the Chantry to be repugnant and monstrous. I don't think all members of the Chantry or the templars are evil, though.

Yes, very repugnant stuff, that Chant of Light:

All things in this world are finite.
What one man gains, another has lost.
Those who steal from their brothers and sisters
Do harm to their livelihood and to their peace of mind.
Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart.

i.e., "don't steal"

Blessed are they who stand before
The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.
Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just.

more repugnant stuff

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

Real disgusting stuff in that Chant . . .

[Noctis Augustus]

TJPags wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

There does happen to be a Chantry priest advocating for them, but that doesn't fit your ideology that all humans, partiuclarly Andrastians, are evil. 

I find the teachings of the Chantry to be repugnant and monstrous. I don't think all members of the Chantry or the templars are evil, though.

Yes, very repugnant stuff, that Chant of Light:

All things in this world are finite.
What one man gains, another has lost.
Those who steal from their brothers and sisters
Do harm to their livelihood and to their peace of mind.
Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart.

i.e., "don't steal"

Blessed are they who stand before
The corrupt and the wicked and do not falter.
Blessed are the peacekeepers, the champions of the just.

more repugnant stuff

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,
From the lowest slaves
To the highest kings.
Those who bring harm
Without provocation to the least of His children
Are hated and accursed by the Maker.

Real disgusting stuff in that Chant . . .

That one is extremely repugnant.

The Chantry is a anti-mage organization and monopolizes religion. That in my opinion is extremely repugnant and loathsome. Not to mention racist and hypocritical.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 28 avril 2013 - 12:49 .

[TJPags]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

That one is extremely repugnant.

The Chantry is a anti-mage organization and monopolizes religion. That in my opinion is extremely repugnant and loathsome. Not to mention racist and hypocritical.

Okay, let's dissect it, okay?

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him = Magic should be a tool to help people, not a tool to dominate or abuse them

Foul and corrupt are they Who have taken His gift And turned it against His children. = Those who turn magic against their fellow man are evil

They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones. = We shall call those who use magic against other people Maleficar, or evil ones.

They shall find no rest in this world Or beyond = We shall hunt them down, and kill them


Now, tell me, what is so terrible about this passage?  It's basically saying that mages should use magic to help other people, rather than for their own selfish interests.  That's bad?

You can argue that the Chantry has corrupted this passage, and perhaps be correct.  But the passage itself certainly doesn't seem so repugnant to me.

[dragonflight288]

Not that I disagree with your take on the Dalish, but I think you're too rough on the CEs.

The CEs are an abused group. And what the CE did led to drastic and radical consequences for everyone. It's easy to be a rebel when you have some kind of power, but for most CEs, a riot means getting raped and butchered at the hands of Ferelden's troops.

While it is true that CE's are an abused lot and are the victims of excessive racism by the humans, they don't make it difficult to be taken advantage of. They go out of their way (culturally as City Elves at least) to avoid settling in with humans, often violently driving them out of the alienages, which the City Elf warden can try to do to Duncan. City Elves in general have no ambition and the handmaiden in the Human Noble origin says she doesn't want her daughter to believe she can rise to anything above servant.

The City Elves just generally have a way of dealing with their problems that I don't like. "Let them have what they want, we'll endure it, and then try to forget about it." seems to be the cultural consensus.

Nothing is stopping them from simply, as a culture, pack up and leave the city's and building their own settlements where humans don't live, and paying taxes to the freeholder or lord of the bann or arling they move to....well aside from the Chantry declaring that they had to live in slums when the Dales were conquered.


Maybe it's just me, but I simply have a problem with people who don't stand up for themselves and put themselves into positions, or at least don't do anything to get them out of said positions, where they can be abused routinely. I blame the abusers for the problems, but I don't see myself taking the time to help the City Elves as they are unwilling to help themselves.

It's just my view and belief that you can't help people who are unwilling to help themselves. Agree or disagree with my take on City Elves, as there are always exceptions, my perception of the city elves pretty much comes down to a single line from Zevran.

"They plant a giant tree to remind themselves of their heritage, and then they ****** all over it. Lovely symbolism."

[BlueMagitek]

dragonflight288 wrote...

While it is true that CE's are an abused lot and are the victims of excessive racism by the humans, they don't make it difficult to be taken advantage of. They go out of their way (culturally as City Elves at least) to avoid settling in with humans, often violently driving them out of the alienages, which the City Elf warden can try to do to Duncan. City Elves in general have no ambition and the handmaiden in the Human Noble origin says she doesn't want her daughter to believe she can rise to anything above servant.

...

Don't listen to the words of Zevran, he's a Dalish supporter.


But what you say is true.  We simply disagree on whether they should be pity or scorned for it.  Sadly, next to no one supports the City Elves, and yes, part of that is there fault.  Even the Casteless seem to have options (as despicable as their lot is) with the Carta and the traditional option of the Legion, but the City Elves do discourage their own from association with humans when they're clearly allowed to join the Guard (CE escape from Fort Drakon).

Which is why I like the City Elf boon; it gives them a chance to move up and if the Warden is Bann, they actually do.  For a time, anyway.

[Plaintiff]

TJPags wrote...
Because Thedas is not the real world.

So?

And if Andrastians believe their church needs an army, saying it can't have one is indeed telling them what to believe.

No it's not. They can believe it all they like.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 avril 2013 - 07:49 .

[In Exile]

dragonflight288 wrote...
While it is true that CE's are an abused lot and are the victims of excessive racism by the humans, they don't make it difficult to be taken advantage of.  

Centuries of extreme poverty and absolutely no hope of advancement will do that to you.

They go out of their way (culturally as City Elves at least) to avoid settling in with humans, often violently driving them out of the alienages, which the City Elf warden can try to do to Duncan.  

That isn't standing up for themselves to you? What is, then?
  

City Elves in general have no ambition and the handmaiden in the Human Noble origin says she doesn't want her daughter to believe she can rise to anything above servant.  

Ambition to do what, exactly? The CE was being groomed to take a job with the city guard, but what exact skills do the CEs have? Where in their extreme poverty do you see the potential for them to start their own businesses? And let's say that they did - how long before their shops are burned. Hell, would humans even really buy from them?

The City Elves just generally have a way of dealing with their problems that I don't like. "Let them have what they want, we'll endure it, and then try to forget about it." seems to be the cultural consensus.  

Except for when they riot in the only part of the CE ending that you see. Yeah, some people are terrified. But you'll recall that they band toghether with the CE to rescue Shianni and everyone, and without the CE, there's a race riot. That's not sitting idle.

Nothing is stopping them from simply, as a culture, pack up and leave the city's and building their own settlements where humans don't live,

You mean except for the fact that they have no clue how to farm, no money to buy materials, and no land to take? What, do you think a bann is going to give unwashed elves prize farmland instead of the sons and daughters of the people who fought and bled for the bann's ancestors? 

Do you think a bann will want peasant levies made up of elves? 

and paying taxes to the freeholder or lord of the bann or arling they move to....well aside from the Chantry declaring that they had to live in slums when the Dales were conquered.

Because, again, those people would love to evict other people from farmland and give it to the elves?

Maybe it's just me, but I simply have a problem with people who don't stand up for themselves and put themselves into positions, or at least don't do anything to get them out of said positions, where they can be abused routinely. I blame the abusers for the problems, but I don't see myself taking the time to help the City Elves as they are unwilling to help themselves.

Help themselves how, exactly? Because what you've come up with is about as realistic the mages to try harder not to get possesed.

It's just my view and belief that you can't help people who are unwilling to help themselves. Agree or disagree with my take on City Elves, as there are always exceptions, my perception of the city elves pretty much comes down to a single line from Zevran.

"They plant a giant tree to remind themselves of their heritage, and then they ****** all over it. Lovely symbolism."

It's never good when your views on anything cone down to a single snarky line said by some guy.