How many elves do you see in Fort Drakon? If you're the CE/DE Origin, you see one, yourself. This is known as a plot device, it gives you a way to escape w/out having to fight every soldier in the fort. This doesn't mean that it's Standard Operating Procedure, unless, of course, you can point to the rest of the CE/DE/dwarves in the guard?BlueMagitek wrote...
dragonflight288 wrote...
While it is true that CE's are an abused lot and are the victims of excessive racism by the humans, they don't make it difficult to be taken advantage of. They go out of their way (culturally as City Elves at least) to avoid settling in with humans, often violently driving them out of the alienages, which the City Elf warden can try to do to Duncan. City Elves in general have no ambition and the handmaiden in the Human Noble origin says she doesn't want her daughter to believe she can rise to anything above servant.
...
Don't listen to the words of Zevran, he's a Dalish supporter.
But what you say is true. We simply disagree on whether they should be pity or scorned for it. Sadly, next to no one supports the City Elves, and yes, part of that is there fault. Even the Casteless seem to have options (as despicable as their lot is) with the Carta and the traditional option of the Legion, but the City Elves do discourage their own from association with humans when they're clearly allowed to join the Guard (CE escape from Fort Drakon).
Which is why I like the City Elf boon; it gives them a chance to move up and if the Warden is Bann, they actually do. For a time, anyway.
Choices, consequences and the Mage Templar war
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Noctis Augustus
, avril 14 2013 02:55
#651
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 12:56
robertthebard
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#652
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 02:14
dragonflight288
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To avoid a quote pyramid...
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living.
Let me put this another way. We have city elves call humans shems as a racial slur, and talk about remembering their heritage and that's why they plant the tree. But when I look at City Elves, I don't see a people proud of their heritage as elves. I don't see a people culturally willing to stand up and say "We are elves! You may have conquered us centuries ago, but that does not mean we should only allowed to live in slums or be servants." Unfortunately, I just don't see elves standing up and saying they are elves. They differentiate themselves from the humans by a racial slur, all the while refusing to acknowledge that they can be better than servants.
In other words, they say things about how they are elves and they should remember their heritage, but do absolutely nothing about it, and pretty much aren't much different from lower class humans, with the difference being they are often seen as less-than-human by...well, the humans AND themselves in some cases. Thus zevran's line about them growing a giant tree to remind themselves of their heritage and then pissing on it is a good analogy of city elf culture, even if it isn't everything there is about city elves.
Elves are generally regarded in poor taste, as something less than human. And I can list a few ways that I'm sure we all already know about.
Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.
In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way.
That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way.
As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn.
Now if the human comes in and makes it clear that his intentions aren't benevolent, then I'm all for the elves driving them out. But when that happens, the city elves pretty much scarper and say "do what you want, we don't want any trouble!" thus empowering the bully further.
As for the elves becoming bann of Denerim. I agree that's cool and it's all well and good, but it doesn't last. Humans have just come to expect elves to fall in line, and the city elves generally do.
I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. But personally, as of how things stand since DA2 ended, I just have a hard time willing myself to care about helping city elves like I would about Casteless or mages, casteless do utilize their options that they have, and don't have that sense of "woe is me" despondancy that City Elves have, well Braska's mother has that, but whatever, culturally the casteless lack that despondant attitude. The mages have tried several peaceful options, before ultimately resorted to delcaring themselves independent.
It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something.
And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want.
Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude.
Now those elves who joined the Qun in DA2, I GREATLY respected them. They went to the guard legally to report their sister's rape, were told off, then Aveline was a total **** and ignored rumors, so they (illegally) took matters into their own hands and then went on to join the Qun, who see elves as completely equal to everyone (except mages) and everyone is assigned a single role for their lives based on their merits.
That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
In Exile wrote...
cut
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living.
Let me put this another way. We have city elves call humans shems as a racial slur, and talk about remembering their heritage and that's why they plant the tree. But when I look at City Elves, I don't see a people proud of their heritage as elves. I don't see a people culturally willing to stand up and say "We are elves! You may have conquered us centuries ago, but that does not mean we should only allowed to live in slums or be servants." Unfortunately, I just don't see elves standing up and saying they are elves. They differentiate themselves from the humans by a racial slur, all the while refusing to acknowledge that they can be better than servants.
In other words, they say things about how they are elves and they should remember their heritage, but do absolutely nothing about it, and pretty much aren't much different from lower class humans, with the difference being they are often seen as less-than-human by...well, the humans AND themselves in some cases. Thus zevran's line about them growing a giant tree to remind themselves of their heritage and then pissing on it is a good analogy of city elf culture, even if it isn't everything there is about city elves.
Elves are generally regarded in poor taste, as something less than human. And I can list a few ways that I'm sure we all already know about.
Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.
In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way.
That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way.
As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn.
Now if the human comes in and makes it clear that his intentions aren't benevolent, then I'm all for the elves driving them out. But when that happens, the city elves pretty much scarper and say "do what you want, we don't want any trouble!" thus empowering the bully further.
As for the elves becoming bann of Denerim. I agree that's cool and it's all well and good, but it doesn't last. Humans have just come to expect elves to fall in line, and the city elves generally do.
I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. But personally, as of how things stand since DA2 ended, I just have a hard time willing myself to care about helping city elves like I would about Casteless or mages, casteless do utilize their options that they have, and don't have that sense of "woe is me" despondancy that City Elves have, well Braska's mother has that, but whatever, culturally the casteless lack that despondant attitude. The mages have tried several peaceful options, before ultimately resorted to delcaring themselves independent.
It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something.
And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want.
Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude.
Now those elves who joined the Qun in DA2, I GREATLY respected them. They went to the guard legally to report their sister's rape, were told off, then Aveline was a total **** and ignored rumors, so they (illegally) took matters into their own hands and then went on to join the Qun, who see elves as completely equal to everyone (except mages) and everyone is assigned a single role for their lives based on their merits.
That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
#653
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 02:45
robertthebard
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The problem with this scenario is two fold.dragonflight288 wrote...
snip
First, as we can see in the CE Origin, moving requires permission from both the original city and the new city. Bribes must be paid, etc etc. Attempting to stand up for themselves results in purge, wherein all the elves are killed, and then new "stock" is brought in. Dogs are treated better in Ferelden than Elves are, and have more rights.
Second, as history teaches us, if they did manage to establish a city, and decided to worship their own Gods, the Chantry would have a cow. It wouldn't be long before they declared yet another Exalted March on the Elves, and this time, since they had had the audacity to deny the Chantry's generosity, they would become extinct. Likely leading to not only the CEs being wiped out, but the Dalish as well, since Elves are Elves, don't you know.
You see, the current system does one thing; it keeps the numbers small enough that a Bann's army could eliminate them without much in the way of loss. Since they aren't allowed to own weapons, it would get even easier, because while some would have some, not all would, and as you point out, some are content to just let the Humans lord it over them, and may even turn on any proposed rebellion to curry some favor with the local lord. One of the possible endings has the Denerim Alienage wiped out.
#654
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 05:00
In Exile
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[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living. [/quote]
I apologize. I thought I was being funny-snarky as opposed to rude-snarky. I didn't mean to give offence!
[quote]Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.[/quote]
So you at least acknowledge that the elves in alienages are absolutely powerless and bound by the legal authority of their abusers, with no hope of getting out of it?
[quote]In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. [/quote]
Farm land is incredibly valuable. The land that actually grows food well, the breadbasket of a nation, is generally handed out in large plot to the nobility through the estates system and flows down to the farmers to work on it. Thking back to what I learned in property (keeping in mind this is from the legal POV, so it may be that the actual on-the-ground reality departed from this) there were extensive records that covered where and how the land was allocated and to whom it belonged.
Property and land ownership (with exceptions) was one of the most highly regulated aspects of the law going back to (borrowing an old legal phrase) time immemorial.
Also, I get that you're thinking in video-game terms where were towns usually spring from the aether, but actual proper settlements have a lot of hard constraints on them (such as water).
It's one thing to set up a farmteand and (for example) dig to an aquifer to set up a well, and another to actually set up a large population centre. The kind of water you need for that is significant.
[quote]A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. [/quote]
It's not occupied, but it's owned. If you set up a hut on government land without having purchased it, the government is well within its rights to remove you. This is the same thing, only you have a large group of elves attempting to start city-state on your soil.
[quote]I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. [/quote]
Again - what makes you think that a noble would do this? The fuedal system is not about the conveyance of property for material. There are lots of ideas of service and servitude bound up in grants of land, and for the estate to be conveyed to the elves lawfully, the noble would have to grant them the land (in some fashion or other).
So without actualy breaking the laws of the period, the elves couldn't just show up and settle. They'd need the land first. And it would have to be good farmland, with water nearby. Which is prized.
[quote]That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way. [/quote]
You think a bann is going to let what could be an actual army of elves onto his o rher land? And you think a pious bann is going to let a bunch of heretical armed elves start a village on his plot?
[quote]That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. [/quote]
What human would be stupid enough to let this happen? The whole point of the current system (from the racist human POV) is to prevent the elves from doing exactly this. Why would a bann agree to empower elves on his land?
[quote]They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way. [/quote]
Again, they don't have the land on their side if they plop a bunch of gold in front of a person whose land they're trespassing on.
[quote]As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn. [/quote]
So you're saying that they should (in theory) punch Vaughn in the face, but not Duncan, because Duncan is (mostly) a nice guy? The elves are trying to stand up to human bullies. Which as you'll recall is precisely what Shianni does when Mr. Sexual Assault and his goons show up, but it turns out that she had the misfortune of clonking someone important on the skull.
[quote]I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. [/quote]
I'd be rather worried about the Dalish starting their racially pure utopia, but I agree that it would be nice to see justice for the CEs.
[quote]It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something. [/quote]
Again - that's not how the law works with. And now you're talking about the elves being cowards for not starting an armed insurrection. Where would they get these mystical weapons? How would they use them? Would would having their sons killed and their daughters raped help anything?
[quote]And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want. [/quote]
Your complaint is that the elves don't deserve help because they haven't started a criminal cartel yet? Because the there's no above world equivalent of the dead legion, and as I described, going somewhere else is just not an option.
[quote]Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude. [/quote]
I think your problem isn't bias, so much as it is that I don't think you appreciate the actual logistical impossibility of what you're asking (aside from the Carta-equivalent). That's totally plausible, but I'm not sure how common the view that people refuse to stand up for themselves for turning to a life of crime is.
[quote]That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
[/quote]
I'm not sure the Qunari treat(ed) the elves with more respect.
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living. [/quote]
I apologize. I thought I was being funny-snarky as opposed to rude-snarky. I didn't mean to give offence!
[quote]Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.[/quote]
So you at least acknowledge that the elves in alienages are absolutely powerless and bound by the legal authority of their abusers, with no hope of getting out of it?
[quote]In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. [/quote]
Farm land is incredibly valuable. The land that actually grows food well, the breadbasket of a nation, is generally handed out in large plot to the nobility through the estates system and flows down to the farmers to work on it. Thking back to what I learned in property (keeping in mind this is from the legal POV, so it may be that the actual on-the-ground reality departed from this) there were extensive records that covered where and how the land was allocated and to whom it belonged.
Property and land ownership (with exceptions) was one of the most highly regulated aspects of the law going back to (borrowing an old legal phrase) time immemorial.
Also, I get that you're thinking in video-game terms where were towns usually spring from the aether, but actual proper settlements have a lot of hard constraints on them (such as water).
It's one thing to set up a farmteand and (for example) dig to an aquifer to set up a well, and another to actually set up a large population centre. The kind of water you need for that is significant.
[quote]A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. [/quote]
It's not occupied, but it's owned. If you set up a hut on government land without having purchased it, the government is well within its rights to remove you. This is the same thing, only you have a large group of elves attempting to start city-state on your soil.
[quote]I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. [/quote]
Again - what makes you think that a noble would do this? The fuedal system is not about the conveyance of property for material. There are lots of ideas of service and servitude bound up in grants of land, and for the estate to be conveyed to the elves lawfully, the noble would have to grant them the land (in some fashion or other).
So without actualy breaking the laws of the period, the elves couldn't just show up and settle. They'd need the land first. And it would have to be good farmland, with water nearby. Which is prized.
[quote]That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way. [/quote]
You think a bann is going to let what could be an actual army of elves onto his o rher land? And you think a pious bann is going to let a bunch of heretical armed elves start a village on his plot?
[quote]That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. [/quote]
What human would be stupid enough to let this happen? The whole point of the current system (from the racist human POV) is to prevent the elves from doing exactly this. Why would a bann agree to empower elves on his land?
[quote]They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way. [/quote]
Again, they don't have the land on their side if they plop a bunch of gold in front of a person whose land they're trespassing on.
[quote]As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn. [/quote]
So you're saying that they should (in theory) punch Vaughn in the face, but not Duncan, because Duncan is (mostly) a nice guy? The elves are trying to stand up to human bullies. Which as you'll recall is precisely what Shianni does when Mr. Sexual Assault and his goons show up, but it turns out that she had the misfortune of clonking someone important on the skull.
[quote]I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. [/quote]
I'd be rather worried about the Dalish starting their racially pure utopia, but I agree that it would be nice to see justice for the CEs.
[quote]It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something. [/quote]
Again - that's not how the law works with. And now you're talking about the elves being cowards for not starting an armed insurrection. Where would they get these mystical weapons? How would they use them? Would would having their sons killed and their daughters raped help anything?
[quote]And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want. [/quote]
Your complaint is that the elves don't deserve help because they haven't started a criminal cartel yet? Because the there's no above world equivalent of the dead legion, and as I described, going somewhere else is just not an option.
[quote]Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude. [/quote]
I think your problem isn't bias, so much as it is that I don't think you appreciate the actual logistical impossibility of what you're asking (aside from the Carta-equivalent). That's totally plausible, but I'm not sure how common the view that people refuse to stand up for themselves for turning to a life of crime is.
[quote]That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
[/quote]
I'm not sure the Qunari treat(ed) the elves with more respect.
Modifié par In Exile, 28 avril 2013 - 05:02 .
#655
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 06:19
LobselVith8
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- Members
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almostinsane99 wrote...
My main problem with what Lob argues is the implication that the Mages should submit to no authority if there's any hint of Mages not being treated fairly. Well, outside the Circle, they will be living in countries with civil laws and a reasonable suspicion towrds Mages. They will need to adhere to civil magistrates and the laws of the country.
I don't think an oppressive anti-mage religion should have dominion over mages by divine right. That doesn't mean I advocate mages living without regulations and laws in place like almost everyone else does. I doubt many on the pro-mage side argue for mages to be above the law.
Sir JK wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.
I don't recall the City elf version enough to comment on it, but as a Andrastian human noble the level of casual racism Sarel, Zathrian and even Lanaya, to a degree, level against you if you question parts of their side of the story is pretty jaw dropping. At best they're condesending and superior, at worst they're pretty much lumping the human's communal guilt on you, calling you a lesser being (not in those words) with voices dripping acid. It's way beyond just being upset.
They're perfectly civil as long as you accept their story and just listen to them. But question it and the niceties end. Zathrians treatment of the werewolves also does him no favours.
Lanaya's limited experience with humans were gang rapists who murdered her parents and used her as a sex slave for a long time, and Zathrian's limited experience was with humans who brutalized and murdered his son and raped his daughter (leading to her committing suicide).
However, Lanaya is diplomatic enough to ease tensions between elves and humans if she becomes Keeper of the clan, and she seemed fairly even-handed to me in many of her comments (including when The Warden points out the hostility of some members of the clan towards a non-Dalish Warden), while it takes much more for Keeper Zathrian to give up his hatred (and the curse).
BlueMagitek wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
The rarity of elves in the guard suggests something else to me.
The story-teller Sarel lost his wife to the werewolves recently (which is revealed to the Dalish Warden), so that's why he's still angry.
I actually found the Denerim Alienage background I chose for my Surana Warden, as well as his upbringing in the Circle of Ferelden, as perfect reasons not to be religiously Andrastian. Although I think being a mage is a suficient enough reason, honestly.
Except that it happens.
That's so unfortunate, I can see why he would take his frustration out on outsiders who have a treaty with his people. For daring to question a story which was passed down orally. Those are never rife with falsities.
Glad to see you're so empathetic about a man who just lost his wife.
BlueMagitek wrote...
Well your bias has been shown quite often when it comes to the various Andrastian faiths, so I'm really not surprised.
As opposed to your pro-Chantry, pro-templar bias that shows up every time we discuss the mages or the elves?
#656
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 07:38
dragonflight288
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[quote]In Exile wrote...
[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living. [/quote]
I apologize. I thought I was being funny-snarky as opposed to rude-snarky. I didn't mean to give offence! [/quote]
No offense taken in any way.
I was simply saying that in the event that we may or may not have readers reading this who would've understood that. Typing what we're saying without inflection from our voices is bound to raise misunderstandings.
[quote][quote]Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.[/quote]
So you at least acknowledge that the elves in alienages are absolutely powerless and bound by the legal authority of their abusers, with no hope of getting out of it?[/quote]
I do. I just resent that, from my view, that the city elves in general have an attitude that nothing can be done about it. It's nothing against them, I just have a problem with any group of people living in perpetual self-pity. Comparing city elves to dalish elves views on what it means to be elven.
Dalish is "We are superior to you in EVERY way by virtue of us being elves! We are awesome! And if you disagree with us in any way, then you must hate us and can be categorically placed in the group of everyone who isn't dalish and thus inferior! And it doesn't matter that we've been conquered....that doesn't count!"
City Elf is "Maybe I might become a servant, and it would be greedy of me to want more out of life. We have things so hard, and if my life-time friend wants to leave the alienage and make something of themselves, they are forgetting what it means to be elven! I want nothing to do with them UNTIL the shem destroy his property and force him back here, so I can welcome him back with open arms. We are elves, we belong here in the slums."
One is extremely arrogant and self-righteous, and the other is living in a pity party. Both are perfectly reasonable reactions after centuries of living the way they do, and neither are attractive.
[quote]
[quote]In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. [/quote]
Farm land is incredibly valuable. The land that actually grows food well, the breadbasket of a nation, is generally handed out in large plot to the nobility through the estates system and flows down to the farmers to work on it. Thking back to what I learned in property (keeping in mind this is from the legal POV, so it may be that the actual on-the-ground reality departed from this) there were extensive records that covered where and how the land was allocated and to whom it belonged.
Property and land ownership (with exceptions) was one of the most highly regulated aspects of the law going back to (borrowing an old legal phrase) time immemorial.
Also, I get that you're thinking in video-game terms where were towns usually spring from the aether, but actual proper settlements have a lot of hard constraints on them (such as water).
It's one thing to set up a farmteand and (for example) dig to an aquifer to set up a well, and another to actually set up a large population centre. The kind of water you need for that is significant. [/quote]
I haven't forgotten the land management and resource gathering section. I was actually thinking in Ferelden having the city elves move to Ostagar, on the border of the wilds, and setting up shop there, the land had been blighted and is on the road to recovery. No one lives there at the moment. Or heck, they could move in the wilds and live comfortably there outside of any King's rule. Granted, they'd be in competition with the Chasind or the Avvar, but still, better than doing nothing.
[quote]
[quote]A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. [/quote]
It's not occupied, but it's owned. If you set up a hut on government land without having purchased it, the government is well within its rights to remove you. This is the same thing, only you have a large group of elves attempting to start city-state on your soil. [/quote]
And that's why I said pay the proper taxes or go through the proper channels. I'm likely glossing over details, but....
....I'd like to say that if the City Elves set up their own community in an open area, swear fealty to the King, they would have the protection of the crown, but be expected to help serve their country in providing men and arms in the event of war, and pay the proper taxes.
It would be better if the elves could purchase the land, but I don't see that happening with how much they have going against them.
[quote]
[quote]I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. [/quote]
Again - what makes you think that a noble would do this? The fuedal system is not about the conveyance of property for material. There are lots of ideas of service and servitude bound up in grants of land, and for the estate to be conveyed to the elves lawfully, the noble would have to grant them the land (in some fashion or other).
So without actualy breaking the laws of the period, the elves couldn't just show up and settle. They'd need the land first. And it would have to be good farmland, with water nearby. Which is prized. [/quote]
I know. But a country on the verge of a civil war (orlais), a violent era of change is about to occur, (mage/templar war) And Ferelden preparing for the possibility of an Orlesian invasion, and the likely scenario of the Qunari invading again, I believe that a lot of land will become available quite quickly as things disslve further into chaos, and the city elves or the Dalish elves can claim some land in the chaos. And that land won't be tainted by darkspawn.
I'm taking into account current events of Thedas.
[quote]
[quote]That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way. [/quote]
You think a bann is going to let what could be an actual army of elves onto his o rher land? And you think a pious bann is going to let a bunch of heretical armed elves start a village on his plot?
[/quote]
Again, current events. I don't see a single bann or arl doing this during a time of peace. I do see them having trouble keeping elves from claiming land when they're so busy with all the other chaos that's going to be happening.
Let me reiterate though, it would be best if the elves could purchase the land. I don't see that happening any time soon, not with the Dalish having no land and are constantly hunted, and the city elves, through racism of humans (and of themselves) keeping them in the slums.
[quote]
[quote]That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. [/quote]
What human would be stupid enough to let this happen? The whole point of the current system (from the racist human POV) is to prevent the elves from doing exactly this. Why would a bann agree to empower elves on his land?[/quote]
None.
And a bann wouldn't agree. 
But they'll be busy fighting Orlais, mages, templars or Qunari.
Unless the chaos grows big enough that a bann or arl, or king or queen, become desperate for more sword arms that they offer this to the elves in exchange for aid. Then it's not a matter of giving up power for the sake of the elves, it becomes a matter of preserving the power they do have, and in order to do so they have to empower the elves to gain the aid necessary for it.
[quote]
[quote]They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way. [/quote]
Again, they don't have the land on their side if they plop a bunch of gold in front of a person whose land they're trespassing on. [/quote]
Again, current events.
[quote]
[quote]As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn. [/quote]
So you're saying that they should (in theory) punch Vaughn in the face, but not Duncan, because Duncan is (mostly) a nice guy? The elves are trying to stand up to human bullies. Which as you'll recall is precisely what Shianni does when Mr. Sexual Assault and his goons show up, but it turns out that she had the misfortune of clonking someone important on the skull.[/quote]
Yup.
Well not really. Duncan was a Grey Warden and Vaughn was the son of the arl, but later on in the game, we see a merchant getting the snot kicked out of him, correct me if I'm wrong, all he was doing was trying to cut through to get somewhere faster.
If my memory is wrong, let me know, but if it's true, then that was completely undeserving and unneeded.
[quote]
[quote]I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. [/quote]
I'd be rather worried about the Dalish starting their racially pure utopia, but I agree that it would be nice to see justice for the CEs.
[/quote]
We agree on something when it comes to elves!
But I do know one thing about the Dalish. They're extremely isolationist. They're not out to conquer everyone else like Tevinter or Orlais. They want to be left alone, and are willing to do extremes to do so. If I know where the Dalish are at, if they ever rebuild their kingdom, I'll go five miles out, put up a sign and say "Don't enter. Dalish might shoot you. They'll avoid you if you avoid them."
[quote]
[quote]It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something. [/quote]
Again - that's not how the law works with. And now you're talking about the elves being cowards for not starting an armed insurrection. Where would they get these mystical weapons? How would they use them? Would would having their sons killed and their daughters raped help anything?
[/quote]
Well, they could stand back and let everyone kill each other in all the chaos that's been built up through Origins and DA2 and the novels, then take land when everyone else can't hold it.
[quote]
[quote]And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want. [/quote]
Your complaint is that the elves don't deserve help because they haven't started a criminal cartel yet? Because the there's no above world equivalent of the dead legion, and as I described, going somewhere else is just not an option.[/quote]
You misunderstand. My complaint is that the city elves don't do anything to help themselves. Not that they haven't started a criminal organization. The casteless in the carta are criminals, and I wont' think twice about shutting them down and killing those who resist, but the attitude of the casteless is completely different from the city elves. They'll stand up and do something to help themselves and their families.
I don't agree with what they do in the Carta, but I respect the attitude of taking life by the reigns and DOING something. I very much approve of the casteless who enter the legion of the dead or go to the surface and become merchants or something. I don't approve of the carta.
Hoped I cleared up the misunderstanding.
[quote]
[quote]Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude. [/quote]
I think your problem isn't bias, so much as it is that I don't think you appreciate the actual logistical impossibility of what you're asking (aside from the Carta-equivalent). That's totally plausible, but I'm not sure how common the view that people refuse to stand up for themselves for turning to a life of crime is. [/quote]
You may be right, but you can't help people who don't want it. And the City-Elves are pretty pessismistic, and that makes it harder to want to help people who have given up on themselves.
[quote][quote]That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
[/quote]
I'm not sure the Qunari treat(ed) the elves with more respect.
[/quote][/quote]
I'd like to quote Sten and Zevran party banter.
Whether you agree with having one life and one duty, and serving your role as decided by the tamassran is another matter, but elves ARE treated better by the Qunari than they are by Andrastians.
[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
First, I don't put all my faith or opinions based on Zevran and what he said, I felt that line was a pretty good analogy on how I viewed the City Elves. And yes, I admit that I might be quite harsh on them for their centuries of poverty and living. [/quote]
I apologize. I thought I was being funny-snarky as opposed to rude-snarky. I didn't mean to give offence! [/quote]
No offense taken in any way.
I was simply saying that in the event that we may or may not have readers reading this who would've understood that. Typing what we're saying without inflection from our voices is bound to raise misunderstandings.[quote][quote]Vaughn is far from the only pig-headed jerk who gives humans a bad name. In Shale's DLC, when we get the control rod from the merchant and he talks about losing his mule, he mentions in an offhand way "I sent the elf to get him." as if the elf didn't have a name. The Quartermaster at Ostagar was obviously not friendly toward his elven help, especially if you talk to the elves running around non-stop.
I see those kinds of humans as nothing short of bullies. And if you give bullies power over you and never resist, you merely open yourselves to more abuse. And yes, I know that resisting generally leads to bad things overall for the elves in general, so the other way of dealing with bullies is to remove them from the equation entirely, and that brings me to my next thought on what the elves could do.[/quote]
So you at least acknowledge that the elves in alienages are absolutely powerless and bound by the legal authority of their abusers, with no hope of getting out of it?[/quote]
I do. I just resent that, from my view, that the city elves in general have an attitude that nothing can be done about it. It's nothing against them, I just have a problem with any group of people living in perpetual self-pity. Comparing city elves to dalish elves views on what it means to be elven.
Dalish is "We are superior to you in EVERY way by virtue of us being elves! We are awesome! And if you disagree with us in any way, then you must hate us and can be categorically placed in the group of everyone who isn't dalish and thus inferior! And it doesn't matter that we've been conquered....that doesn't count!"
City Elf is "Maybe I might become a servant, and it would be greedy of me to want more out of life. We have things so hard, and if my life-time friend wants to leave the alienage and make something of themselves, they are forgetting what it means to be elven! I want nothing to do with them UNTIL the shem destroy his property and force him back here, so I can welcome him back with open arms. We are elves, we belong here in the slums."
One is extremely arrogant and self-righteous, and the other is living in a pity party. Both are perfectly reasonable reactions after centuries of living the way they do, and neither are attractive.
[quote]
[quote]In my mind, when I said finding some land to settle an all-elven town, I never once said they should ask human farmers to evict themselves or go into an area where humans are already settled. I'm guessing, based strictly on the technology available, as magic isn't often used because mages are locked up upon discovery, that you have towns, a few outlying farms, and a couple of cities. [/quote]
Farm land is incredibly valuable. The land that actually grows food well, the breadbasket of a nation, is generally handed out in large plot to the nobility through the estates system and flows down to the farmers to work on it. Thking back to what I learned in property (keeping in mind this is from the legal POV, so it may be that the actual on-the-ground reality departed from this) there were extensive records that covered where and how the land was allocated and to whom it belonged.
Property and land ownership (with exceptions) was one of the most highly regulated aspects of the law going back to (borrowing an old legal phrase) time immemorial.
Also, I get that you're thinking in video-game terms where were towns usually spring from the aether, but actual proper settlements have a lot of hard constraints on them (such as water).
It's one thing to set up a farmteand and (for example) dig to an aquifer to set up a well, and another to actually set up a large population centre. The kind of water you need for that is significant. [/quote]
I haven't forgotten the land management and resource gathering section. I was actually thinking in Ferelden having the city elves move to Ostagar, on the border of the wilds, and setting up shop there, the land had been blighted and is on the road to recovery. No one lives there at the moment. Or heck, they could move in the wilds and live comfortably there outside of any King's rule. Granted, they'd be in competition with the Chasind or the Avvar, but still, better than doing nothing.
[quote]
[quote]A countries borders may cover a lot of area, but that doesn't mean that all the land is occupied. [/quote]
It's not occupied, but it's owned. If you set up a hut on government land without having purchased it, the government is well within its rights to remove you. This is the same thing, only you have a large group of elves attempting to start city-state on your soil. [/quote]
And that's why I said pay the proper taxes or go through the proper channels. I'm likely glossing over details, but....
....I'd like to say that if the City Elves set up their own community in an open area, swear fealty to the King, they would have the protection of the crown, but be expected to help serve their country in providing men and arms in the event of war, and pay the proper taxes.
It would be better if the elves could purchase the land, but I don't see that happening with how much they have going against them.
[quote]
[quote]I was thinking the elves could go build an all-elven settlement where there aren't any humans, and then pay the proper taxes to the bann or arl in the area. [/quote]
Again - what makes you think that a noble would do this? The fuedal system is not about the conveyance of property for material. There are lots of ideas of service and servitude bound up in grants of land, and for the estate to be conveyed to the elves lawfully, the noble would have to grant them the land (in some fashion or other).
So without actualy breaking the laws of the period, the elves couldn't just show up and settle. They'd need the land first. And it would have to be good farmland, with water nearby. Which is prized. [/quote]
I know. But a country on the verge of a civil war (orlais), a violent era of change is about to occur, (mage/templar war) And Ferelden preparing for the possibility of an Orlesian invasion, and the likely scenario of the Qunari invading again, I believe that a lot of land will become available quite quickly as things disslve further into chaos, and the city elves or the Dalish elves can claim some land in the chaos. And that land won't be tainted by darkspawn.
I'm taking into account current events of Thedas.
[quote]
[quote]That way they could avoid the rules where elves aren't allowed to carry weapons, they can build shops and the like without fear of being burned down, or if they are believers in the Chant of Light and Andrastianism, teach their own the chant and form their own chantry...or return to a worship of the creators like the Dalish have, I don't care either way. [/quote]
You think a bann is going to let what could be an actual army of elves onto his o rher land? And you think a pious bann is going to let a bunch of heretical armed elves start a village on his plot?
[/quote]
Again, current events. I don't see a single bann or arl doing this during a time of peace. I do see them having trouble keeping elves from claiming land when they're so busy with all the other chaos that's going to be happening.
Let me reiterate though, it would be best if the elves could purchase the land. I don't see that happening any time soon, not with the Dalish having no land and are constantly hunted, and the city elves, through racism of humans (and of themselves) keeping them in the slums.
[quote]
[quote]That way, with their own militia or force of arms, should humans come in and say "We need our servants to beat up and abuse because I can't find any humans willing to be treated this way, so come back nice and quietly to the alienage," the elves can say no with a bit more power to back them up. [/quote]
What human would be stupid enough to let this happen? The whole point of the current system (from the racist human POV) is to prevent the elves from doing exactly this. Why would a bann agree to empower elves on his land?[/quote]
None.
And a bann wouldn't agree. But they'll be busy fighting Orlais, mages, templars or Qunari. Unless the chaos grows big enough that a bann or arl, or king or queen, become desperate for more sword arms that they offer this to the elves in exchange for aid. Then it's not a matter of giving up power for the sake of the elves, it becomes a matter of preserving the power they do have, and in order to do so they have to empower the elves to gain the aid necessary for it.
[quote]
[quote]They can say they have the law on their side as they are paying their due to the bann or arl, who might even be an elf if they are in a completely uninhabited area, and serves the king or queen of the country, and send them on their merry way...or not so merry and possibly injured way. [/quote]
Again, they don't have the land on their side if they plop a bunch of gold in front of a person whose land they're trespassing on. [/quote]
Again, current events.
[quote]
[quote]As for your point about elves violently beating up humans and driving them from the alienage being a way of standing up for themselves. I disagree. I think that's just elves being bullies themselves. For all we know, that human who comes in may have genuinely good intentions like Duncan. I see it as the elves trying to give themselves a sense of power in their otherwise powerless lives by making things miserable for humans who may mean them no harm at all, and that makes the elves bullies in turn. [/quote]
So you're saying that they should (in theory) punch Vaughn in the face, but not Duncan, because Duncan is (mostly) a nice guy? The elves are trying to stand up to human bullies. Which as you'll recall is precisely what Shianni does when Mr. Sexual Assault and his goons show up, but it turns out that she had the misfortune of clonking someone important on the skull.[/quote]
Yup.
Well not really. Duncan was a Grey Warden and Vaughn was the son of the arl, but later on in the game, we see a merchant getting the snot kicked out of him, correct me if I'm wrong, all he was doing was trying to cut through to get somewhere faster.
If my memory is wrong, let me know, but if it's true, then that was completely undeserving and unneeded.
[quote]
[quote]I'll likely change my tune if I see them doing something in all the chaos that's going to happen in Inquisition, and if the elves get their homeland they've been searching, I'll be behind them 100%, Dalish or City Elf. [/quote]
I'd be rather worried about the Dalish starting their racially pure utopia, but I agree that it would be nice to see justice for the CEs.
[/quote]
We agree on something when it comes to elves!
But I do know one thing about the Dalish. They're extremely isolationist. They're not out to conquer everyone else like Tevinter or Orlais. They want to be left alone, and are willing to do extremes to do so. If I know where the Dalish are at, if they ever rebuild their kingdom, I'll go five miles out, put up a sign and say "Don't enter. Dalish might shoot you. They'll avoid you if you avoid them."
[quote]
[quote]It's probably just me, but I really would love to see city elves stand up for themselves, claim a piece of uninhabited land, say this is ours, and if it's owned by someone else, we'll pay the proper taxes." or something. Smuggle in weapons and form a resistance movement, stand up and say they deserve to be above the rank of servant, at least SOMETHING that suggests they are doing something. [/quote]
Again - that's not how the law works with. And now you're talking about the elves being cowards for not starting an armed insurrection. Where would they get these mystical weapons? How would they use them? Would would having their sons killed and their daughters raped help anything?
[/quote]
Well, they could stand back and let everyone kill each other in all the chaos that's been built up through Origins and DA2 and the novels, then take land when everyone else can't hold it.
[quote]
[quote]And yes, the elven riots do count but that felt more of an exception to the rule than the elves actively fighting than anything else. The casteless have been in just as bad conditions, legally they don't exist, for far longer than the city elves, but the casteless seem tougher and more willing to take steps to help themselves, even if it is the criminal carta, the dead legion, or coming up to the surface where they are free to be whatever they want. [/quote]
Your complaint is that the elves don't deserve help because they haven't started a criminal cartel yet? Because the there's no above world equivalent of the dead legion, and as I described, going somewhere else is just not an option.[/quote]
You misunderstand. My complaint is that the city elves don't do anything to help themselves. Not that they haven't started a criminal organization. The casteless in the carta are criminals, and I wont' think twice about shutting them down and killing those who resist, but the attitude of the casteless is completely different from the city elves. They'll stand up and do something to help themselves and their families.
I don't agree with what they do in the Carta, but I respect the attitude of taking life by the reigns and DOING something. I very much approve of the casteless who enter the legion of the dead or go to the surface and become merchants or something. I don't approve of the carta.
Hoped I cleared up the misunderstanding.
[quote]
[quote]Or maybe I'm just biased to dwarves in general. *shrug* Simply my view, but I don't see city elves in general doing much to change their lot in lives, nor even a desire to change things, more or less a passive 'please don't hurt us' attitude. [/quote]
I think your problem isn't bias, so much as it is that I don't think you appreciate the actual logistical impossibility of what you're asking (aside from the Carta-equivalent). That's totally plausible, but I'm not sure how common the view that people refuse to stand up for themselves for turning to a life of crime is. [/quote]
You may be right, but you can't help people who don't want it. And the City-Elves are pretty pessismistic, and that makes it harder to want to help people who have given up on themselves. [quote][quote]That was something I enjoyed seeing. Elves taking a stand for what was right, trying the legal action first, then standing up for themselves and their sister, and then left to join a group that would treat them with respect and more equality than the one they were in. Even as Hawke fought the Qunari, I was thinking "Good for those elves.....not so good that I now have to kill them if thy fight me."
[/quote]
I'm not sure the Qunari treat(ed) the elves with more respect.
[/quote][/quote]
I'd like to quote Sten and Zevran party banter.
- Zevran: I understand that there are elves in the Qunari lands, Sten.
- Sten: There are elves everywhere.
- Zevran: Hm. Yes. Well, I've heard that the Qunari actually put the elves in charge? Over the humans? Is that true?
- Sten: Some of them.
- Zevran: Only some? Which ones are they?
- Sten: The ones who belong in charge. That is the way of the Qun.
- Zevran: How does this Qun determine who belongs in charge?
- Sten: The tamassrans evaluate everyone and place them where their talents merit.
- Zevran: But elves, in general, merit higher places than humans in Qunari society?
- Sten: Some of them.
- Zevran: Back where we began. It's like talking to a water wheel.
Whether you agree with having one life and one duty, and serving your role as decided by the tamassran is another matter, but elves ARE treated better by the Qunari than they are by Andrastians.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 28 avril 2013 - 07:43 .
#657
Posté 28 avril 2013 - 07:45
dragonflight288
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This is a double post, but another bit of Zevran banter that discusses how the Qunari are different from Andrastian society.
Sten: I knew one of your countrymen once, elf.
Zevran: Oh? Have you been to Antiva, then?
Sten: No. Until I came to Ferelden, I had never left the islands. She came to Seheron twice a year with the traders who bought spices from the northern jungle. Only she among the traders would speak to the antaam. Questions about the rainforest, its depths, and the things to be seen there. We humored her. She was... an unfortunate soul.
Zevran: Unfortunate in what way?
Sten: She was a Crow, as you were. Sent to assassinate the kithshoks, leaders of the army of Seheron, for the Tevinter Imperium. We knew this, and pitied her.
Zevran: I'm surprised you did not simply slay her.
Sten: There was no need. Her questions were meant to show her the way through the jungle towards our fortifications. And so one day, she snuck into the jungle to find her target. We found the pieces of her body in a tree, where the spotted cats kept them for later. We had never told her that our kithshoks were the ones who negotiated all the trades at the port.
Zevran: Then she was a fool. That's not very sympathetic, I'm afraid.
Sten: It was her ignorance we pitied, not her mistake. She believe we hoarded things we cared for as her own people do. We were sorry for her, that she thought only some people were important.
Sten: I knew one of your countrymen once, elf.
Zevran: Oh? Have you been to Antiva, then?
Sten: No. Until I came to Ferelden, I had never left the islands. She came to Seheron twice a year with the traders who bought spices from the northern jungle. Only she among the traders would speak to the antaam. Questions about the rainforest, its depths, and the things to be seen there. We humored her. She was... an unfortunate soul.
Zevran: Unfortunate in what way?
Sten: She was a Crow, as you were. Sent to assassinate the kithshoks, leaders of the army of Seheron, for the Tevinter Imperium. We knew this, and pitied her.
Zevran: I'm surprised you did not simply slay her.
Sten: There was no need. Her questions were meant to show her the way through the jungle towards our fortifications. And so one day, she snuck into the jungle to find her target. We found the pieces of her body in a tree, where the spotted cats kept them for later. We had never told her that our kithshoks were the ones who negotiated all the trades at the port.
Zevran: Then she was a fool. That's not very sympathetic, I'm afraid.
Sten: It was her ignorance we pitied, not her mistake. She believe we hoarded things we cared for as her own people do. We were sorry for her, that she thought only some people were important.
