656 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Bleachrude wrote...

"obliterate the chantry"

Strange how people have more of a hard-on for the chantry than for the Tevinters...

One evil empire at a time.

Bleachrude wrote...

Looking again at origins, but the life of a mage is LEAGUES better than the life of the average slave in Tevinter...

The torture, rape, forced tranquility, and murder of mages in the Circle of Kirkwall suggested otherwise to me.

Bleachrude wrote...

Hell, the mage dorms in the Ferelden circle when you play the mage origin (before the rebellion) ACTUALLY are cleaner/look nicer than most of the hovels of normal average Ferelden citizens to say nothing of either the alienage elves or the casteless.

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Bleachrude wrote...

I honestly would respect the mage position more if I actually saw them lead a war/uprising against Tevinter.

We haven't been to Tevinter yet.

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm hoping that when we World of Thedas comes that there are SOME indication that there were human mages fighting alongside Andrastre.

I wonder if the Chantry would acknowledge something like that.

[Althix]

well then. we should go a burn all christian churches. because i don't like when a holy father driving top end crossover instead of spending his live in a service of god.

if i knew that working as servant of the god that profitable, i would rather went to church instead of army and 3 universities.

Modifié par secretsandlies, 18 avril 2013 - 04:08 .

[Erhank]

Some templar boys and pitiful magelings are irrevelent(It is good concept and I want to see) BUT real problems are old gods, talking darkspawns(blighted old tevinter mages who walked to golden city?, etc corypheus, architect). and Flemeth ofcourse, something is brewing. In Legacy dlc we read there are talking DS in old times. And confirmed some twenter mages really walked in somewhere very important(gold city, light, arlathan(became god = gain elf immortality) or else) and that place was really dark or became dark when they arrived(corypheus said they found darkness AND he is still want to light). I think THAT story is really interesting which I'm egarly waiting to see more than templar-mage conflict.

[Noctis Augustus]

secretsandlies wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...
obliterate the Chantry

what Chantry ever did to you? you know that their Chant is almost a Matthew (Bible).

I think you fail to see a difference between Chantry and Templar Order. And these two organizations are rather distant in their approach to let say magi problem.

Even if i am always up for some bloodbath(blood for the Blood God and such), random violence should be applied in the right time, right place and to the right people.

p.s. also obliterating Chantry can get you killed, just look at Anders. Dogs ate his body.

They locked me up in a tower full of templars ready to kill me and Chantry propaganda... I still have nightmares. I don't know who that is.

The templars are the army of the Chantry... How are they distant? It's like saying the US army is distant from the government.

Random violence? What are you talking about? Besides the right people are the Chantry and the templars.

What? I haven't seen Anders for awhile but last time we opposed and defeated the templars together then we had a small party with my other companions. I couldn't have been more proud when he destroyed the Chantry.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 18 avril 2013 - 11:59 .

[Nightdragon8]

guys you do realize that any such change could make it MUCH harder to make DA4... I mean what woudl be the changes if the Mages "win" the war. Are then mages free to roam and use magic? Now thats find and dandy if that ends up being cannon but if you then have games that have Templars wining, how does that effect the planescape of the NPCS in the game. Cause then you will need to have 2 spawns of different NPCS to deal with the diversity in change.

And how much will it effect the story. and what not. because in DA4 the change will need to be a bar minium of not that much different if the mages are 'free' or 'locked up' as it where. Then you will have the ask yourself the question... so they had a war just so I could have X quests or X number of NPCS running around that are mages. vs 0 mages running around... how do the lines of mages in the circle change depending on the outcome.

so in reality they need to write DA3 and prepare for a DA4 just to lightin the workload for future writers

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 18 avril 2013 - 01:20 .

[LobselVith8]

secretsandlies wrote...

well then. we should go a burn all christian churches. because i don't like when a holy father driving top end crossover instead of spending his live in a service of god.

if i knew that working as servant of the god that profitable, i would rather went to church instead of army and 3 universities.

The Chantry of Andraste isn't Christianity. Stop comparing the two. The Chantry is a fictional religion that subjugated the elves and enslaved the mages in Chantry controlled Circles. It's easy to see why some of us despise this vile organization.

[The Elder King]

LobselVith8 wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

well then. we should go a burn all christian churches. because i don't like when a holy father driving top end crossover instead of spending his live in a service of god.

if i knew that working as servant of the god that profitable, i would rather went to church instead of army and 3 universities.

The Chantry of Andraste isn't Christianity. Stop comparing the two. The Chantry is a fictional religion that subjugated the elves and enslaved the mages in Chantry controlled Circles. It's easy to see why some of us despise this vile organization.

Indeed. What I find strange is that some of the pro-mages see Tevinter in a different view, as it's not either a vile/corrupted state. As the majority of nations of Thedas.
I don't care much about the subject, since I don't think any nations and major organization are "good", and the best of them have some major flaws, but it seems to me a bit hypocrital.

Modifié par hhh89, 18 avril 2013 - 03:52 .

[Noctis Augustus]

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

well then. we should go a burn all christian churches. because i don't like when a holy father driving top end crossover instead of spending his live in a service of god.

if i knew that working as servant of the god that profitable, i would rather went to church instead of army and 3 universities.

The Chantry of Andraste isn't Christianity. Stop comparing the two. The Chantry is a fictional religion that subjugated the elves and enslaved the mages in Chantry controlled Circles. It's easy to see why some of us despise this vile organization.

Indeed. What I find strange is that some of the pro-mages see Tevinter in a different view, as it's not either a vile/corrupted state. As the majority of nations of Thedas.
I don't care much about the subject, since I don't think any nations and major organization are "good", and the best of them have some major flaws, but it seems to me a bit hypocrital.

Good, evil... I don't see the world that way.  I'm amoral, the reasons why I like Tevinter have nothing to do with that. I don't see why I'm hypocrital.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 18 avril 2013 - 03:56 .

[The Elder King]

ibbikiookami wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

secretsandlies wrote...

well then. we should go a burn all christian churches. because i don't like when a holy father driving top end crossover instead of spending his live in a service of god.

if i knew that working as servant of the god that profitable, i would rather went to church instead of army and 3 universities.

The Chantry of Andraste isn't Christianity. Stop comparing the two. The Chantry is a fictional religion that subjugated the elves and enslaved the mages in Chantry controlled Circles. It's easy to see why some of us despise this vile organization.

Indeed. What I find strange is that some of the pro-mages see Tevinter in a different view, as it's not either a vile/corrupted state. As the majority of nations of Thedas.
I don't care much about the subject, since I don't think any nations and major organization are "good", and the best of them have some major flaws, but it seems to me a bit hypocrital.

Good, evil... I don't see the world that way.  I'm amoral, the reasons why I like Tevinter have nothing to do with that. I don't see why I'm hypocrital.

Of course, I should've specified that it depends on people's view of the world. Those who like Tevinter for the way it is are not hypocrites. The same goes for those that recognize the Chantry's flaws, but support it because they believe it's doing a necessary mission.
Those who view the Chantry as bad/evil and Tevinter as good are the people that seem hypocrites to me.

[Althix]

what? if you see Chantry as evil empire, why can't i see fan club of the christian god as the same evil empire? Slaves here, slaves there. ummm also churches. nevermind. both institutes of fate is a serious business.

thing is, that freedom for mages possess much more danger for everyone around than let say... i can't compare it with anything esle really. Also keep in mind, that Templars just as much prisoners of the Circle as mages are, well with much bigger freedom of movement but still. They are like prison wardens. And even with so little power that Templars have over mages, that power corrupt some or many of them. And templars can't project lightings from their fingers.

Also chantry runs orphanages and participate in many social activities. Remove Andrastian cult or put a puppet in holy chair what we will get? Although i would love to be a part of Holy Desire Demon cult, but i doubt majority of population would like a new religion. And with other things that will follow - like sacrifices, abductions, sudden rains of fire, death vortexes, armies of walking dead etc.

Let's just hope, those mages are worthy all the problems that this little war of theirs will bring. Otherwise Blood God will be pleased with rivers of magician's blood and pyramides of their skulls.(at least i hope that we will have this option.)

Because the only reason why Circle survived in DA:O that they are far more efficient than Templars are.

[Palidane]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The torture, rape, forced tranquility, and murder of mages in the Circle of Kirkwall suggested otherwise to me.

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Lobsel, you know that the Kirkwall Circle is not the standard for all other Circles? That it was famous for being a horrible opressive circle, and was probably the worst one? And even there the rape, torture, and murder was unsanctioned and uncommon, at least until the end. Can honestly imagine any of that happening in the Ferelden Circle?

Also, say what you will about the Chantry, but the mages are not slaves. The Chantry does not force them into labor. Call them prisoners if you wish, but they are free to do as they wish within the tower.

Modifié par Palidane, 18 avril 2013 - 06:38 .

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The torture, rape, forced tranquility, and murder of mages in the Circle of Kirkwall suggested otherwise to me.

Lobsel, you know that the Kirkwall Circle is not the standard for all other Circles? That it was famous for being a horrible opressive circle, and was probably the worst one? And even there the rape, torture, and murder was unsanctioned and uncommon, at least until the end. Can honestly imagine any of that happening in the Ferelden Circle?

The beatings seemed to be sanctioned. The rape and murder happened because of the power templars have over mages in the Chantry controlled Circle. The Starkhaven Circle mages say that their Circle was really bad. The mage protagonist can say that the Circle of Ferelden is an oppressive place, and Wynne never contests this; she argues that The Warden can change that if he returns and takes a leadership position in the Circle. Anders even pointed out the many suicides that took place.

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Also, say what you will about the Chantry, but the mages are not slaves. The Chantry does not force them into labor. Call them prisoners if you wish, but they are free to do as they wish within the tower. 

It's seen as slavery by some. Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. In-game authors note that some mages have fled the Circle because they didn't want to continue to live in servitude to the Chantry.

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The torture, rape, forced tranquility, and murder of mages in the Circle of Kirkwall suggested otherwise to me.

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Lobsel, you know that the Kirkwall Circle is not the standard for all other Circles? That it was famous for being a horrible opressive circle, and was probably the worst one? And even there the rape, torture, and murder was unsanctioned and uncommon, at least until the end. Can honestly imagine any of that happening in the Ferelden Circle?

Also, say what you will about the Chantry, but the mages are not slaves. The Chantry does not force them into labor. Call them prisoners if you wish, but they are free to do as they wish within the tower.

Yes, they are slaves.  Slavery isn't just about forced labor.  When your life is utterly in the hands of an organization and you live or die by the word of its soldiers, you're very much a slave.  Mages are forced into the Circles completely irrespective of their feelings on the matter:  if you're cool with it, great, but cool with it or not you have zero choice in the matter.  How is that NOT a mark of slavery?

It occurs to me that many people who are pro-Circles object to calling mages slaves possibly because of the negative perceptions of the term, perhaps? 

I'd prefer the people in the pro-Circle camp to just say that the Circle is necessary evil rather than tripping over themselves to come up with reasons why it's not so bad, really, and mages should be happy to go into the Circle system.  You CAN believe that the Circle is an oppressive organization while also believing that however bad it is, it is necessary for the good of the majority.  I don't believe it is necessary, certainly not in its present incarnation, but at least that is a more honest viewpoint than trying to claim that the Circle is somehow this totally awesome place for mages, or denying that the list of restricted or outright prohibited freedoms somehow doesn't equate to slavery.

Modifié par Silfren, 18 avril 2013 - 08:35 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

 the main question is from what exactly Mages need to be controlled?  

to gaining much political powers than non-mages and be nobles/kings/emperrors? 

to use Blood magic and abilitys to kill(for various reasons) peoples with magic instead of weapons?

or the main and real reason to have some controll for them.. controlled from some powerful, totally mad and very rich mages who really being able to do a full destruction of Thedas and turning him into infernal demon lands

if it is the reason, so we not need Chantry and of course we  have no need of Templars for that....we need a special Order of Mages  for this situations based on Tevinters Grey Wardens

and if we really need a Circle, so we need a normal Circle school/university system(and not eternal isolator), without any Chantry and non-mages jailors as Templars(trained Mages can block/drain mana much better if somethinc go not right) in normal Circles mages will not be live there and after they learned Magic they would be totally free

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 18 avril 2013 - 11:58 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Also, say what you will about the Chantry, but the mages are not slaves. The Chantry does not force them into labor. Call them prisoners if you wish, but they are free to do as they wish within the tower. 

It's seen as slavery by some. Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. In-game authors note that some mages have fled the Circle because they didn't want to continue to live in servitude to the Chantry.

So because it is percieved by some as slavery it must be slavery? Well then..... I guess whites are superior to blacks, and I guess men are superior to women... I mean, some people think that's true, so it must be true... Right?

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 18 avril 2013 - 09:32 .

[Noctis Augustus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nice quarters don't excuse forcing mages into servitude to the Chantry.

Also, say what you will about the Chantry, but the mages are not slaves. The Chantry does not force them into labor. Call them prisoners if you wish, but they are free to do as they wish within the tower. 

It's seen as slavery by some. Aldenon the Wise, Anders, and pro-mage Hawke refer to the Chantry controlled Circles as slavery. In-game authors note that some mages have fled the Circle because they didn't want to continue to live in servitude to the Chantry.

So because it is percieved by some as slavery it must be slavery? Well then..... I guess whites are superior to blacks, and I guess men are superior to women... I mean, some people think that's true, so it must be true... Right?

Stop acting like a fool, if you aren't one you should understand what he said.

Slave:
Noun
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Mages are slaves.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 18 avril 2013 - 09:53 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages are not property of the Chantry, nor are they forced to do anything the Chantry says, other than live in the Circles, and abide by the rules each individual Circle sets.

Mages are not slaves.

[Enigmatick]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Stop acting like a fool, if you aren't one you should understand what he said.

Slave:
Noun
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Mages are slaves.

Only in the Tevinter Imperium oh deluded one

[Noctis Augustus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are not property of the
Chantry, nor are they forced to do anything the Chantry says, other than
live in the Circles, and abide by the rules each individual Circle
sets.

Mages are not slaves.

... I'm not sure what to say. Are you blind?

Enigmatick wrote...

ibbikiookami wrote...

Stop acting like a fool, if you aren't one you should understand what he said.

Slave:
Noun
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

Mages are slaves.

Only in the Tevinter Imperium oh deluded one

Really? Because you seem to be the deluded one to me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Mages are NOT property of the Chantry. No matter how all you pro-mages try to spin it. Mages have rights of their own, and are only forced to live inside the Circles. Other than that, it is the Cirlces themselves that set the rules, and these rules vary wildly from Circle to Circle. Furthermore the Chantry cannot force the Mages to labour against the mages' will. Whenver mages are called to war, it is volunteers who joins the war, not forced conscription, nor can the Chantry force a mage into runecrafting, or any other form of work.

So still the same resounding conclusion: Mages are NOT slaves.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Yes, they are slaves.  Slavery isn't just about forced labor.  When your life is utterly in the hands of an organization and you live or die by the word of its soldiers, you're very much a slave.  Mages are forced into the Circles completely irrespective of their feelings on the matter:  if you're cool with it, great, but cool with it or not you have zero choice in the matter.  How is that NOT a mark of slavery?

Because there are many things in both Thedas and our world that people are forced into without any choice in the matter but that won't make them slaves. Your nationality, compulsory education, vacination; obey the king, obey the empress, obey the law, etc.
Now, you can tell me that it's not the same thing and you're partially correct but the simple fact that people are forced into certain roles by the system does not make it slavery.
The most widely accepted defining characteristic of slavery is the process of dehumanizing the slave into an object. An object has no rights or freedoms; it's owner can do to the object what s/he wishes. They're, basically, proprierty.
Mages are not proprierty of the Chantry or Templars. They have rigths protecting them such as the right to physical integrity; mages can't be beaten or raped by Templars; and they have freedoms that must be respected such as the freedom of association; mages can join any fraternity they choose. This doesn't always translate as it should but corruption exists in the legal and police systems of democratic countries and they're not hallmarks of slavery.
They also can't be forced to perform labor. The Chantry or others can request help from a Circle; such as the Warden asking Irving to commit to fight against the Blight or to help deal with Connor; but the mages render the assistance only if they wish to do so. The profits of the sale of any objects produced by the Tanquils goes to the Circle, not the Chantry.
Hence, mages are not slaves.

It occurs to me that many people who are pro-Circles object to calling mages slaves possibly because of the negative perceptions of the term, perhaps?

No, it's because it's not slavery.  Even David Gaider doesn't believe the Circles are a form of slavery and he created the Dragon Age Universe.

I'd prefer the people in the pro-Circle camp to just say that the Circle is necessary evil rather than tripping over themselves to come up with reasons why it's not so bad, really, and mages should be happy to go into the Circle system.  You CAN believe that the Circle is an oppressive organization while also believing that however bad it is, it is necessary for the good of the majority.  I don't believe it is necessary, certainly not in its present incarnation, but at least that is a more honest viewpoint than trying to claim that the Circle is somehow this totally awesome place for mages, or denying that the list of restricted or outright prohibited freedoms somehow doesn't equate to slavery.

But there are some amongst us who genuinelly believe that the Circle is not so bad. Free housing, schooling, clothing, food plus armed guards to stop any bandits or Darkspawn from killing them. The mages in the Circle of Orlais lived in Drakon's former palace. They were literally sleeping in beds an emperor used to sleep in.
Compared to both the living conditions and legal systems of most countries in Thedas and our own world and I believe some of us are justified in claiming that the Circle really is not that bad and that the mages are acting like self entitled children who overglorify "free Thedas" because they never actually had to deal with its harsh realities.
The people of Thedas have enough horrors to deal with without adding uncontrolled, uncaring, uneducated, irresponsible walking demonics-all-you-can-eat-buffets to the mix, thank you very much.
So, in the words of the wise Carver Hawke: "Shove your plight.". And that's directed at the mages, not you.

If the simple restriction of freedom was slavery, any prison system would be a form of slavery. Should we just abolish it?

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 avril 2013 - 01:14 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are not property of the Chantry, nor are they forced to do anything the Chantry says, other than live in the Circles, and abide by the rules each individual Circle sets.

Mages are not slaves.

Yet you argued once that the mages couldn't be given their freedom because the Circle was property of the Chantry.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages are not property of the Chantry, nor are they forced to do anything the Chantry says, other than live in the Circles, and abide by the rules each individual Circle sets.

Mages are not slaves.

Yet you argued once that the mages couldn't be given their freedom because the Circle was property of the Chantry.

The mages can't be allowed to live outside the Cirlces because of the inherent threat they pose. That doesn't make them slaves. Asylum patients can't be allwoed to live outside the asylums either, because of the threat they pose to society (along with numerous other reasons), yet they are not slaves either. Confinement is not slavery.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 19 avril 2013 - 12:56 .

[Dave of Canada]

ibbikiookami wrote...

Mages are slaves.

Under that definition, pretty much everyone is a slave.

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
Yes, they are slaves.  Slavery isn't just about forced labor.  When your life is utterly in the hands of an organization and you live or die by the word of its soldiers, you're very much a slave.  Mages are forced into the Circles completely irrespective of their feelings on the matter:  if you're cool with it, great, but cool with it or not you have zero choice in the matter.  How is that NOT a mark of slavery?

It occurs to me that many people who are pro-Circles object to calling mages slaves possibly because of the negative perceptions of the term, perhaps? 

I'd prefer the people in the pro-Circle camp to just say that the Circle is necessary evil rather than tripping over themselves to come up with reasons why it's not so bad, really, and mages should be happy to go into the Circle system.  You CAN believe that the Circle is an oppressive organization while also believing that however bad it is, it is necessary for the good of the majority.  I don't believe it is necessary, certainly not in its present incarnation, but at least that is a more honest viewpoint than trying to claim that the Circle is somehow this totally awesome place for mages, or denying that the list of restricted or outright prohibited freedoms somehow doesn't equate to slavery.

And I would prefer is people in the pro-mage camp would stop throwing around buzz words like "slavery" and "rape" just to try and get the moral high ground. You CAN oppose the Chantry and the circle system while also not demonizing the Templars to the point of absurdity.

I don't think the Mages have great lives. Some pro-templar people do, but I have never claimed the Templars were doing the mages a favor. Mages are brought, sometimes forced, into the Circle at a young age. There they learn to harness the magic in an opressive enviroment, constantly monitored by a whole spectrum of religious zealots. They are always held in suspicion, always told how dangerous they are, and always have to be on their best behavior. But for crying out loud, they're not slaves! It's not like they're forced to do backbreaking labor in a quarry somewhere, only to be given a crust of bread by their cruel supervisor, who sends them out to lie in the rain while he throws wild extravagent parties within earshot. They get clean rooms, constant food, an abundance of security, a wealth of knowledge to peruse, and a community of similar individuals to interact with. They are in a grand, disciplined, well-ordered prison, but let's not pretend they're stuck in a gulag somewhere, grovelling in the mud before ****-esque overlords.

Edit: Fine, Germans of a National and Socialist persuasion, then.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 01:21 .