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[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
The Dalish for one.  The Rivaini for another.  We don't know a lot about those societies, but in the case of the latter, especially, we have a book codex, authored by a Chantry brother no less, that talks about the Rivaini mages wilingly allowing themselves to be possessed.  We also hear that the Rivaini people don't let the Chantry get a real foothold in its society specifically because the Rivaini hold their seers in high regard and won't see them locked into Circles.  

We don't have as much information as I'd like, I'll grant you.  But if Rivaini had a serious problem with magic or possession, we'd certainly have heard about it, if only because the Chantry would be all over it as evidence of why Circles are necessary and free mages are dangerous. 

Sorry, but that just doesn't hold water. Rivain has a Chantry, complete with Templars and a Circle. The Chantry isn't completely accepted, but they have authority there. Besides, the people that don't support the Chantry are most likely Qunari, and we all know how they feel about mages. The Rivaini mages that let themselves be possesed are apostates, like Morrigan and Flemeth.

Yes, it does hold water.  I'm aware that we have lore about Rivaini having a Chantry presence.  But we DO have the lore asserting what I mentioned.  It's in a codex of a book written by Brother Genitivi, very specifically stating that Rivain refuses to be parted from its mages, and that Rivaini seers let themselves be possessed.

And the Chantry doesn't have to harp on about the dangers of Dalish and Rivaini mages. They already have a perfect example of a terrible, god-awful hellhole of a society dominated by mages. You might have heard of it. It's called Tevinter.

Irrelevant.  The Chantry WOULD use the example of Rivain if it had evidence of magical destruction.  Seriously, you suck at this logical debate thing if you think that having Tevinter as an example means that the Chantry would ignore all other available examples.  The Chantry has a vested interest in maintaining its position that without its Circles, another Tevinter Imperium is inevitable; if it could point to other societies to try to prove this it would. 

As far as the Dalish, what we have NOT seen is that magic is so dangerous, so uncontrollable, that due to its mages being free the Dalish clans are under constant threat of annhilation due to being used for blood magic guinea pigs, or turned into abominations by the score.  Sorry, but your examples don't suggest this. 

Modifié par Silfren, 19 avril 2013 - 03:14 .

[Ianamus]

Silfren wrote...

Nor do we have evidence that if mages live free, their takeover is inevitable.  Don't bring up Tevinter, because one society is NOT evidence of such.

Bear in mind that I have NEVER advocated that mages should live totally free of any oversight.  I simply reject entirely the idea that they MUST be forced into Circles and required to live in their present condition of forced servitude, since you hate the other s word so much.

Circles will always be at least partially neccessary. ideally mages could be placed into two groups: Those who are fit to live 'normal' lives under general supervision and those who do need to be placed in a circle-like institute. 
I say the second category because there are many different types of people. There are the kind, noble people, but there are also criminals, sociopaths and people who are unable to control their emotions. There are also unfortunately people with varying degrees of disability and mental instability, who would be incredibly dangerous with mage powers. The mage origin implies that many mages fail the Harrowing, and that means that a large proportion of mages are unsafe.

But then there are more moral questions raised. How do you decide who is fit to be allowed to live 'normally' and who is not? Would it be better just to tranquilise(or 'make tranquil') mages who cannot live safely in society, and what about hate crimes to free mages from the general populace? There would probably be a lot of discrimination. If a mage uses his or her dangerous abilities in self defense is that acceptable, or does ever using your mage power offensively in a civilian cituation mark you as dangerous? Even in this 'ideal' situation all free mages would fear the prospect of being locked away if they stepped even a milimeter out of line.

There will never be a simple solution to the problem because mages are as different as any other type of people. Some deserve freedom and some do not, and I myself aren't sure what I think would be the right answer to the whole mess. If there was a way to remove somebody's magical potential without making them tranquil that would be the best solution, but I don't see that happening. At the moment the circle system does seem to be the simplest way of dealing with a pretty huge problem. 

Modifié par EJ107, 19 avril 2013 - 03:20 .

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
Irrelevant.  The Chantry WOULD use the example of Rivain if it had evidence of magical destruction.  Seriously, you suck at this logical debate thing if you think that having Tevinter as an example means that the Chantry would ignore all other available examples.  The Chantry has a vested interest in maintaining its position that without its Circles, another Tevinter Imperium is inevitable; if it could point to other societies to try to prove this it would.  

As far as the Dalish, what we have NOT seen is that magic is so dangerous, so uncontrollable, that due to its mages being free the Dalish clans are under constant threat of annhilation due to being used for blood magic guinea pigs, or turned into abominations by the score.  Sorry, but your examples don't suggest this. 

I'll drop the Rivaini thing for now, as there is information in the World of Thedas that has not been spread around yet, and I don't think either of us has all the facts.

Just because we do not hear stuff about Abominations in Rivain doesn't mean it does not happen. In truth, we know almost nothing about Rivain. Our characters have not been able to go into a library to look up examples of mages abusing their power. We have talked to a few Templars and they always bring up Tevinter, because it is the biggest and most notable. Let's avoid making assumptions about things we don't know.

And I love how you dismiss my evidence against the Dalish because their body count is not high enough. Hundreds of people have been killed by Dalish Mages abusing their magic, and your counter is that thats not enough to brand their society "Mages free, unstable"?. When was Tevinter-levels of massacres the baseline for mages abusing their power? Tell me, how many more must die for you to acknowledge that maybe Dalish mages aren't so great after all?

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 03:29 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
The Dalish for one.  The Rivaini for another.  We don't know a lot about those societies, but in the case of the latter, especially, we have a book codex, authored by a Chantry brother no less, that talks about the Rivaini mages wilingly allowing themselves to be possessed.  We also hear that the Rivaini people don't let the Chantry get a real foothold in its society specifically because the Rivaini hold their seers in high regard and won't see them locked into Circles.

This is not, by itself, evidence of the frequence at which mages become dangerous in Rivain. We also have  other codex entries that claim that mages do become dangerous but that rivainis simply see Abominations as a natural ocurrence.
That is not much to go on but if true, it could be seen; and I do see it; as the inaction of sheep. Abominations are not natural accidents like a thypoon, they are the conscious actions of sentient beings who should be held accountable for their actions and there are measures that can and should be taken to minimize the chances of such things ocurring.
Cultures are not infallible and perhaps this whole "Seers allowing themselves to be possessed" is something the rivaini should seriously reconsider.

We don't have as much information as I'd like, I'll grant you.  But if Rivaini had a serious problem with magic or possession, we'd certainly have heard about it, if only because the Chantry would be all over it as evidence of why Circles are necessary and free mages are dangerous. 

In the new "The World of Thedas" a letter written by the First Enchanter of Rivain states that the foreign templars who arrived were shocked to see rivainin mages freely interacting with their families and training mages in the ways of the seer; which equals being possessed; and they invoked the Right of Annulment when the rivaini mages refused to comply with Chantry regulations.
All of this suggests that the knowledge of the Divine or the Knight-Vigilante regarding rivaini traditions is scarce at the very best.
How much, I can't say for sure but it could be that the Chantry at large just doesn't know much about Rivain at all which is feasible given the fact it's pretty much divided into three different cultures.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Yet we have evidence that it is possible for mages to live freely without causing societal destruction.  I see no compelling evidence for the Chantry and Templars not to at the very least TRY things another way. 

But we have no evidence that it is possible for mages to live freely without taking over society. 

Besides the 900 year old society of Haven and the kingdom of Rivain, you mean.

[Palidane]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Besides the 900 year old society of Haven and the kingdom of Rivain, you mean.

Rivain has been covered, but Haven? Freaking Haven? Lobsel, I respect your intelligence immensely, so I can't figure for the life of me why you are citing a town filled with cultists dedicated to making blood sacrifices to a dragon that they believe to be Andraste. They are basically Tevinter, just in one town in the middle of Ferelden. That's a stable society because everyone is brainwashed, either from birth or by blood magic. That is a terrible example of free mages acting responsibly.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 03:36 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Besides the 900 year old society of Haven and the kingdom of Rivain, you mean.

Haven is a small village of inbred, demented, dragon-worshippers and as I said in my previous post regarding Rivain, if the rivaini as just going to accept Abominations as natural accidents rather than make the mages own up to their mistakes and prevent future possessions, then they are placing the mages in a pedestal they don't belong in. Therefore, they are still being controled.
Besides, Rivain is a cultural battleground for the Chantry, the Qun and rivainis so, we can't say for sure that mages have no restrictions there.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Dalish for one.  The Rivaini for another.  We don't know a lot about those societies, but in the case of the latter, especially, we have a book codex, authored by a Chantry brother no less, that talks about the Rivaini mages wilingly allowing themselves to be possessed.  We also hear that the Rivaini people don't let the Chantry get a real foothold in its society specifically because the Rivaini hold their seers in high regard and won't see them locked into Circles.  

We don't have as much information as I'd like, I'll grant you.  But if Rivaini had a serious problem with magic or possession, we'd certainly have heard about it, if only because the Chantry would be all over it as evidence of why Circles are necessary and free mages are dangerous. 

Sorry, but that just doesn't hold water. Rivain has a Chantry, complete with Templars and a Circle. The Chantry isn't completely accepted, but they have authority there.

The witches and seers live outside the Circle of Rivain.

Palidane wrote...

Besides, the people that don't support the Chantry are most likely Qunari, and we all know how they[/i] feel about mages. The Rivaini mages that let themselves be possesed are apostates, like Morrigan and Flemeth.

Actually, they are seers, highly respected by the people of Rivain.

Palidane wrote...

The Dalish? Please. We've met three clans so far, and everyone of them has horribly abused their magic.
1. Zathrian's children were killed so he summoned a freaking demon from the fade, tied his life force to it, then sicced it on the humans, causing hundreds of innocent people over hundreds of years to be turned into mindless beasts by pure chance and no wrong of their own.

The humans who raped his daughter and murdered his son were cursed. And he used the Spirit of the Forest - not a demon from the Fade.

Palidane wrote...

2. Velanna was tricked by the Awakened and wrongfully massacred a bunch of human merchants. True, this may have happened regardless, but I don't think a Dalish archer or swordsmans' body count would be quite so high. Mages have a lot of power, and every mistake they make has dire consequences.

Meredith managed a higher body count in Kirkwall because templars have dominion over mages by divine right, and Meredith could legally execute hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for something they didn't do. That's not even counting her death squad. It seems to me mages and non-mages are capable of doing horrible things.

Palidane wrote...

3. Merril was a full on Maleficar who regularly communes with demons and is so easily decieved she will betray you and try to kill you at the mere suggestion of a demon.

Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.

Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???

Palidane wrote...

In the end, she gets her keeper killed and maybe her whole clan because she relentlessly pursued blood magic even when everyone in the entire world knew that that was a freakin stupid thing to do.[/i] 

You know who got Marethari killed? Marethari. You don't blame someone  for the actions of another person. 

And you know who was the only person who studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard? Merrill. Why should Merrill listen to anyone who is completely ignorant of the Eluvian when she actually did the research?

Furthermore, please stop acting like blood magic is evil. Duncan mentions that Grey Warden mages use blood magic. The phylacteries are blood magic. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. Finn used blood magic to locate the Eluvian. It's not the dark side of the Force.

Palidane wrote...

And the Chantry doesn't have to harp on about the dangers of Dalish and Rivaini mages. They already have a perfect example of a terrible, god-awful hellhole of a society dominated by mages. You might have heard of it. It's called Tevinter. 

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even Haven don't emulate Tevinter, despite having free mages.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 avril 2013 - 04:11 .

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
That is not much to go on but if true, it could be seen; and I do see it; as the inaction of sheep. Abominations are not natural accidents like a thypoon, they are the conscious actions of sentient beings who should be held accountable for their actions and there are measures that can and should be taken to minimize the chances of such things ocurring.

But when an abomination doesn't actually do anything to harm anyone, and the mage willingly got pasted toghehter, what is dangerous about it?

There are justifiable concerns re: mundanes and mages in Thedes, especially in terms of the mages being the natural ruling class of the world, but that's a social issue that's very different from what Rivain does.

In the new "The World of Thedas" a letter written by the First Enchanter of Rivain states that the foreign templars who arrived were shocked to see rivainin mages freely interacting with their families and training mages in the ways of the seer; which equals being possessed; and they invoked the Right of Annulment when the rivaini mages refused to comply with Chantry regulations.

How dare those mages hug their moms! You don't see anything wrong the the Chantry's reaction to a perfectly functional society being "kill 'em all"? At all?

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Besides the 900 year old society of Haven and the kingdom of Rivain, you mean.

Rivain has been covered, but Haven? Freaking Haven? Lobsel, I respect your intelligence immensely, so I can't figure for the life of me why you are citing a town filled with cultists dedicated to making blood sacrifices to a dragon that they believe to be Andraste. They are basically Tevinter, just in one town in the middle of Ferelden. That's a stable society because everyone is brainwashed, either from birth or by blood magic. That is a terrible example of free mages acting responsibly.

No, they aren't Tevinter. That's the point. Mages aren't ruling over mundanes. Their morally bankrupt, but that's not the issue. Mages are free, but it's not a magocracy. It's an example that free mages don't automatically rule over mundanes in society.

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
But when an abomination doesn't actually do anything to harm anyone, and the mage willingly got pasted toghehter, what is dangerous about it?

There are justifiable concerns re: mundanes and mages in Thedes, especially in terms of the mages being the natural ruling class of the world, but that's a social issue that's very different from what Rivain does.

Everything about it is dangerous. Spirits, even those who embody humanity's kinder nature are, ultimately, narrow-minded beings who are incapable of seeing situations in any colors being black and white and can be affected by the more negative emotion of the human whose flesh they're using as a suit. The best example of this is a spirit of Justice who became a terrorist and a slaugtherer of innocents such as Elia.
Mages are not born possessed, they do not need to be possessed in order to be alive or to feel emotions, there is no reason whatsoever any mage should, at any point, choose to be possessed.
It seems to me that this is not such an unresonable request. Don't be possessed, that's all.

How dare those mages hug their moms! You don't see anything wrong the the Chantry's reaction to a perfectly functional society being "kill 'em all"? At all?

Given the fact we know little to nothing how the society of Rivain fuctions, I'd wait before saying that it's perfectly functional.
And I have no problem with mages hugging their mothers. One thing that I have suggested is greater interaction between Circle mages and the outside world in order to prevent factionalization and dehumanization.
I do, on the other hand, have tons of problems with mages walking around freely and allowing themselves to be possessed. Usually, an entire Circle being possessed is grounds for Annulment.

I'll remind you that the Templars first simply told the rivaini mages to abide by Chantry regulations; which I support; and only invoked the Right once they resisted.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 avril 2013 - 04:04 .

[Naitaka]

 I'll just leave this here as it's quite relevent to the discussion and brings up some pretty good points about the subject. I don't think the result of the war matters as much, the consequences of your action can be on a much personal level. I think the problem with DA2 was how artificial it felt when it came to changes in character behavior. Also as pointed out in the video, failure is a consequence and really gives a much higher stake to dialogue. It's one of the reason why I felt DA2's dialogue was simply inferior to DA:O because I stop caring about what I'm choosing due to the dialogue mechanic just being different flavor text instead having real effect on the outcome of the game.

Modifié par Naitaka, 19 avril 2013 - 04:15 .

[Palidane]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, they are seers, highly respected by the people of Rivain.

I bet the Magisters are highly respected in Tevinter too.

The humans who raped his daughter and murdered his son were cursed. And he used the Spirit of the Forest - not a demon from the Fade.

No one cares about those humans, the innocents were the ones who got bitten by them and turned into mindless monsters for no reason. I would have understood if Zathrian just massacred them all, but even you can't defend that curse. Also, I think "Spirit of the Forest" is just a name given by the Dalish, and I'm not sure she counts as an actual Spirit.

Meredith managed a higher body count in Kirkwall because templars have dominion over mages by divine right, and Meredith could legally execute hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for something they didn't do. That's not even counting her death squad.

A, Meredith was completely insane. B, two wrongs don't make a right. Meredith's murders do not excuse the murders of a young Keeper commited years ago and hundreds of miles away.

Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.
Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???

Dealing with demons is foolish, in every form. And while I haven't looked up every outcome of that quest, I have only been betrayed by Merril and Isabela before. I apologise if my information was innaccurate.

You know who got Marethari killed? Marethari. You don't blame someone  for the actions of another person. 
And you know who was the only person who studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard? Merrill. Why should Merrill listen to anyone who is completely ignorant of the Eluvian when she actually did the research? 
Furthermore, please stop acting like blood magic is evil. Duncan mentions that Grey Warden mages use blood magic. The phylacteries are blood magic. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. Finn used blood magic to locate the Eluvian.

Marethari died protecting Merril. I never once got the feeling that Merril was an expert or had any clue what the hell she was walking into. Marethari was far older than her and had been researching Dalish lore before Merril was born.

And no, I still maintain blood magic is, if not precisely evil in of itself, ridiculously dangerous and incredibly malevolent and all kinds of bad. I don't support Wardens who use Blood Magic, the Joining was a desperate measure created in the utmost desperate of times, the same is true of phylacteries (plus Templars are not mages and can't do the big blood magic), and Finn did not use Blood Magic. Blood was a component, but was not powering the spell.

The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even Haven don't emulate Tevinter, despite having free mages.

We know almost nothing about the Avvar and Chasind, I've countered the Dalish, we have conflicting information on Rivain, and Haven? Seriously?

EDIT: Please excuse any typos or grammatical errors. I'm writing this on my phone.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 04:14 .

[The Hierophant]

Regarding Rivain's codex entry about the seers and their cultural view on abominations, Rivain's living conditions must have been crappy since a portion of their population remained loyal to the Qunari who seem stricter towards mages than the Chantry.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 19 avril 2013 - 04:38 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Besides the 900 year old society of Haven and the kingdom of Rivain, you mean.

Haven is a small village of inbred, demented, dragon-worshippers

A morally bankrupt society, true, but one with free mages that is ruled by a mundane.

MisterJB wrote...

and as I said in my previous post regarding Rivain, if the rivaini as just going to accept Abominations as natural accidents rather than make the mages own up to their mistakes and prevent future possessions, then they are placing the mages in a pedestal they don't belong in. Therefore, they are still being controled.

Unless the seers actually rule over the people, it doesn't mean that.

MisterJB wrote...

Besides, Rivain is a cultural battleground for the Chantry, the Qun and rivainis so, we can't say for sure that mages have no restrictions there. 

The codex mentioned the witches were not controlled by templars in Rivain.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Everything about it is dangerous. Spirits, even those who embody humanity's kinder nature are, ultimately, narrow-minded beings who are incapable of seeing situations in any colors being black and white and can be affected by the more negative emotion of the human whose flesh they're using as a suit. The best example of this is a spirit of Justice who became a terrorist and a slaugtherer of innocents such as Elia.

Of course it's dangerous. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. We don't know enough about Rivain to say whether the way they do it is going overboard (actively encouraging it as a cultural thing).

And Anders is a good example - he became, by the end, and absolute nutbag and Vengeance was morally reprehensible. But Anders is one person (well, two, but still). It doesn't mean it isn't knowledge we should pursue, under controlled circumstances.

Mages are not born possessed, they do not need to be possessed in order to be alive or to feel emotions, there is no reason whatsoever any mage should, at any point, choose to be possessed.
It seems to me that this is not such an unresonable request. Don't be possessed, that's all.

We don't know enough about it. I certainly (were I a mage) wouldn't want to be possessed. But without knowing more, who can say?

Given the fact we know little to nothing how the society of Rivain fuctions, I'd wait before saying that it's perfectly functional.

They've managed not to burn down under the weight of their seers, so they can't be doing worse than Kirkwall. 

And I have no problem with mages hugging their mothers. One thing that I have suggested is greater interaction between Circle mages and the outside world in order to prevent factionalization and dehumanization.
I do, on the other hand, have tons of problems with mages walking around freely and allowing themselves to be possessed. Usually, an entire Circle being possessed is grounds for Annulment.

See, that's where I object. Before going nuclear on the Chantry, there was no justification to just execute Anders. He was out of control, he needed help... but that doesn't mean putting his head on the chopping block.

I'll remind you that the Templars first simply told the rivaini mages to abide by Chantry regulations; which I support; and only invoked the Right once they resisted.

This isn't making it better. Hey, mages! Surrender your freedoms, renounce your traditions, let us execute your friends, and we promise not to kill you all! (no promises on rape or future abuse ). 

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
A morally bankrupt society, true, but one with free mages that is ruled by a mundane.

A small village who we know almost nothing about. How did Kolgrim become its leader? Because he was the most fervorous beliver? And are mages free? We seem them fighting and one preaching which indicates a position of some importance for one at least but it's by no means indication of mages marrying with their cousins; it is Haven; and having little dragon-worshippers.

Unless the seers actually rule over the people, it doesn't mean that.

There are many forms of control and only a very portion of it involves it chains and whips.
If the mages are allowed to conduct their spiritual experimentations without oversight by anyone and when one; surprise, suprise; becomes an Abomination and kills people it's just sweeped under the rug as a "natural disaster", then clearly the mages have privileges they should not have and it's not a system the rest of the continent should adopt.

The codex mentioned the witches were not controlled by templars in Rivain.

Which is not evidence of a lack of Chantry of presence leading to peace between mages and non-mages. In fact, one could easily claim that the only reason rivaini mages are not more visible it's because they don't wish to attract the attention of other more powerful and devoted countries.
Besides, the Qun controls a portion of Rivain and they are not going to overlook mages.

[Palidane]

Ok, I keep hearing accusations of rape getting thrown around. When did this happen? I'm not doubting your facts, I really just don't remember.

[In Exile]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, I keep hearing accusations of rape getting thrown around. When did this happen? I'm not doubting your facts, I really just don't remember.

It was Karras on Alain, as well as Ser-Tranquil-Solution or whatever. 

[Palidane]

In Exile wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Ok, I keep hearing accusations of rape getting thrown around. When did this happen? I'm not doubting your facts, I really just don't remember.

It was Karras on Alain, as well as Ser-Tranquil-Solution or whatever. 

That's it? From the way the pro-mages sling it around, I thought that it was common in more abusive circles. The only recorded instances we have are two Templars in the worst Circle on Thedas who were considered renegades even by their peers?

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 04:35 .

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
Of course it's dangerous. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. We don't know enough about Rivain to say whether the way they do it is going overboard (actively encouraging it as a cultural thing).

And Anders is a good example - he became, by the end, and absolute nutbag and Vengeance was morally reprehensible. But Anders is one person (well, two, but still). It doesn't mean it isn't knowledge we should pursue, under controlled circumstances.

Certain areas of knowledge are pursued, despite the danger, because they have the potential to provide benefits. There are no known potential benefits for something like willing possession. It makes the mages more powerful but the whole problem exists because mages are powerful to begin with. This just makes it worse because now they are more powerful and they also have a second voice in their head trying to tell them what to do.

Using spirits to heal is useful but that doesn't require possession.

They've managed not to burn down under the weight of their seers, so they can't be doing worse than Kirkwall. 

Tevinter hasn't burn down but I'd rather live in Kirkwall, all things considered.

See, that's where I object. Before going nuclear on the Chantry, there was no justification to just execute Anders. He was out of control, he needed help... but that doesn't mean putting his head on the chopping block.

He is possessed by a demon. If there was a realistic possibility of both being separated, I'd be willing to try. But there isn't. And the fact that he seems to like being possessed is not helping his case.

This isn't making it better. Hey, mages! Surrender your freedoms, renounce your traditions, let us execute your friends, and we promise not to kill you all! (no promises on rape or future abuse ). 

The alternative is to allow people capable of burning others or controlling their minds with a thought walking around and allowing themselves to be possessed by dangerous beings.
Given the fact the Chantry also offers free housing, schooling, clothing and food plus certain freedoms and rights, I'd say they are being very lenient. I expect we would have been far less merciful in our own medieval times.
Stakes and wood and fire and whatnot.

[MisterJB]

Palidane wrote...
That's it? From the way the pro-mages sling it around, I thought that it was common in more abusive circles. The only recorded instances we have are two Templars in the worst Circle on Thedas who were considered renegades even by their peers?

Yeah, that is it. Two guys on the worst Circle in Thedas and even the other templars were happy when Alrik was killed.

[LobselVith8]

Palidane wrote...

Ok, I keep hearing accusations of rape getting thrown around. When did this happen? I'm not doubting your facts, I really just don't remember.

Alrik made mages tranquil to use them for sex, Kerras, and other templars, as Alain is still raped if Kerras is killed.

[The Hierophant]

Who are the other Templars? Plus Alain's dialogue about rape only happens when you send him to the Gallows in Act 1 while Kerras is still alive?

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Palidane wrote...
That's it? From the way the pro-mages sling it around, I thought that it was common in more abusive circles. The only recorded instances we have are two Templars in the worst Circle on Thedas who were considered renegades even by their peers?

Yeah, that is it. Two guys on the worst Circle in Thedas and even the other templars were happy when Alrik was killed.

We have Anders mention that it happened in Ferelden, too.  I know that a lot of people will automatically dismiss it because it came from Anders, but there it is.

It gets brought up enough times in Kirkwall that it ISN'T just two isolated mentions.  Rape is a common occurrence in Kirkwall, and we have no reason to think that other oppressive Circles don't have a similar problem.  I'd argue that any of the Circles which have an environment which encourages templars to think of themselves as having divine right over mages' lives is going to produce at least a few people who take advantage of the imbalance of power in that most fundamental of methods. 

I'm aware that some Circles are better than others, but it's worth pointing out that all it takes for the environment to change dramatically is the changing of the guard.  Being imprisoned in the Circle and requiring permission of the Knight Commander to leave the premises, ALL it takes for Ferelden's relatively benign atmosphere to become totalitarian is for a Meredith to come into power.  It's useless to talk about the mages' rights when the mages can't actually exercise them without first leaving the tower in the first place.  The fact remains that the imbalance of power is such that mages are always only ever at the mercy of the temperament of whomever is in charge.  A place like Ferelden, with fewer averages of abuse can nevertheless quickly descend into an abusive system because benign or not, the power is ALL in the hands of the Templars. 

Modifié par Silfren, 19 avril 2013 - 04:54 .