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[lil yonce]

MisterJB wrote...

Given the fact the Chantry also offers free housing, schooling, clothing and food plus certain freedoms and rights, I'd say they are being very lenient. I expect we would have been far less merciful in our own medieval times.
Stakes and wood and fire and whatnot.

And that ritzy palace in Cumberland where they held the College of Magi-- that place was nice. Incredibly luxurious. And what did the mages accomplish at their gatherings? Nothing. It was a conclave everyone attended primarily to be scene as if they were senators playing Circle politics in Tevinter. And then they complain about a lack of change and how oppressive the Chantry is and how it never lets them set their course or make their own decisions. They accomplish little with the plethora of opportunities they've had to intelligently and peacefully plan and orchestrate a suitable treatment and compromise. Mages. SMH.

Reference-- Asunder p. 336-337.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 19 avril 2013 - 05:55 .

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

A morally bankrupt society, true, but one with free mages that is ruled by a mundane.

A small village who we know almost nothing about. How did Kolgrim become its leader? Because he was the most fervorous beliver? And are mages free? We seem them fighting and one preaching which indicates a position of some importance for one at least but it's by no means indication of mages marrying with their cousins; it is Haven; and having little dragon-worshippers.

Kolgrim is the descendant of the one who believed the High Dragon was Andraste reborn; Kolgrim doesn't share the Chantry's view on magic; and Kolgrim's status as leader indicates that we have a non-mage presiding over mages and non-mages alike.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Unless the seers actually rule over the people, it doesn't mean that.

There are many forms of control and only a very portion of it involves it chains and whips.
If the mages are allowed to conduct their spiritual experimentations without oversight by anyone and when one; surprise, suprise; becomes an Abomination and kills people it's just sweeped under the rug as a "natural disaster", then clearly the mages have privileges they should not have and it's not a system the rest of the continent should adopt.

The seers don't rule Rivain; we know little about how the seers merging with spirits - the end result could be no different than the abomination Wynne.

MisterJB wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The codex mentioned the witches were not controlled by templars in Rivain.

Which is not evidence of a lack of Chantry of presence leading to peace between mages and non-mages. In fact, one could easily claim that the only reason rivaini mages are not more visible it's because they don't wish to attract the attention of other more powerful and devoted countries. Besides, the Qun controls a portion of Rivain and they are not going to overlook mages. 

It's evidence that there are free mages in a kingdom that isn't ruled by mages.

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
We have Anders mention that it happened in Ferelden, too.  I know that a lot of people will automatically dismiss it because it came from Anders, but there it is.

It gets brought up enough times in Kirkwall that it ISN'T just two isolated mentions.  Rape is a common occurrence in Kirkwall, and we have no reason to think that other oppressive Circles don't have a similar problem.  I'd argue that any of the Circles which have an environment which encourages templars to think of themselves as having divine right over mages' lives is going to produce at least a few people who take advantage of the imbalance of power in that most fundamental of methods. 

I'm aware that some Circles are better than others, but it's worth pointing out that all it takes for the environment to change dramatically is the changing of the guard.  Being imprisoned in the Circle and requiring permission of the Knight Commander to leave the premises, ALL it takes for Ferelden's relatively benign atmosphere to become totalitarian is for a Meredith to come into power.  It's useless to talk about the mages' rights when the mages can't actually exercise them without first leaving the tower in the first place.  The fact remains that the imbalance of power is such that mages are always only ever at the mercy of the temperament of whomever is in charge.  A place like Ferelden, with fewer averages of abuse can nevertheless quickly descend into an abusive system because benign or not, the power is ALL in the hands of the Templars.

And how is that any different from a Noble's relations with his subjects?

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 04:59 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

Who are the other Templars? Plus Alain's dialogue about rape only happens when you send him to the Gallows in Act 1 while Kerras is still alive?

This is the reason Alain joined Thrask's rebellion. Don't you recall his dialogue when Hawke asks why he joined Thrask?

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
It gets brought up enough times in Kirkwall that it ISN'T just two isolated mentions.  Rape is a common occurrence in Kirkwall, and we have no reason to think that other oppressive Circles don't have a similar problem.  I'd argue that any of the Circles which have an environment which encourages templars to think of themselves as having divine right over mages' lives is going to produce at least a few people who take advantage of the imbalance of power in that most fundamental of methods. 

It gets brought up by Alain and that is the extent of it. Even Alrik is an educated guess, not a confirmation.
So, while I don't doubt it happens now and again, given the fact we know only of two named templars who were rapists as opposed to many named templars in Kirkwall who were not rapists, I don't think you can say it's a common ocurrence.

I'm aware that some Circles are better than others, but it's worth pointing out that all it takes for the environment to change dramatically is the changing of the guard.  Being imprisoned in the Circle and requiring permission of the Knight Commander to leave the premises, ALL it takes for Ferelden's relatively benign atmosphere to become totalitarian is for a Meredith to come into power.  It's useless to talk about the mages' rights when the mages can't actually exercise them without first leaving the tower in the first place.  The fact remains that the imbalance of power is such that mages are always only ever at the mercy of the temperament of whomever is in charge.  A place like Ferelden, with fewer averages of abuse can nevertheless quickly descend into an abusive system because benign or not, the power is ALL in the hands of the Templars. 

And if Celene's heir happen to be more similar to Vaughan than to Bryce Cousland, the empire will descend into opression and agressive expansionism again. The mages really are not a isolacted case when it comes to potential abuses of power.

[Silfren]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
We have Anders mention that it happened in Ferelden, too.  I know that a lot of people will automatically dismiss it because it came from Anders, but there it is.

It gets brought up enough times in Kirkwall that it ISN'T just two isolated mentions.  Rape is a common occurrence in Kirkwall, and we have no reason to think that other oppressive Circles don't have a similar problem.  I'd argue that any of the Circles which have an environment which encourages templars to think of themselves as having divine right over mages' lives is going to produce at least a few people who take advantage of the imbalance of power in that most fundamental of methods. 

I'm aware that some Circles are better than others, but it's worth pointing out that all it takes for the environment to change dramatically is the changing of the guard.  Being imprisoned in the Circle and requiring permission of the Knight Commander to leave the premises, ALL it takes for Ferelden's relatively benign atmosphere to become totalitarian is for a Meredith to come into power.  It's useless to talk about the mages' rights when the mages can't actually exercise them without first leaving the tower in the first place.  The fact remains that the imbalance of power is such that mages are always only ever at the mercy of the temperament of whomever is in charge.  A place like Ferelden, with fewer averages of abuse can nevertheless quickly descend into an abusive system because benign or not, the power is ALL in the hands of the Templars.

And how is that any different from a Noble's relations with his subjects?

I am sick of people trying to make comparisons between the peasantry/nobility and mages/Templars.  How many peasants did you see in Ferelden who had hateful, miserable lives?  How many nobles do you see acting with total disregard to the peasantry versus those who give something of a damn?  How many peasants do you see regarding the lives of mages with drooling envy, since mages have it so awesome, what with free food, education, and shelter?

I'd have a lot more respect for this argument if we had seen example after example after example of miserable peasants with unhappy, thankless existences--and not in the context of a Blight--and zero examples of peasants living any other kind of life.  We saw it in Kirkwall, with the caveat of the kind of history Kirkwall has had.  But we DIDN'T see it in Ferelden, so clearly it is not a Thedas-wide condition.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Kolgrim is the descendant of the one who believed the High Dragon was Andraste reborn; Kolgrim doesn't share the Chantry's view on magic; and Kolgrim's status as leader indicates that we have a non-mage presiding over mages and non-mages alike.

Haven is a small village, not a large society. What applies there doesn't necessarely apply to the rest of the world and we don't even know how Kolgrim has managed to remain the leader or how the mages are treated.
Unless I missed a part where he detailed the live of haven citizens.

The seers don't rule Rivain; we know little about how the seers merging with spirits - the end result could be no different than the abomination Wynne.

What did I just say about there being different froms of control and supremacy? Must I repeat myself?

And while some seers might be like Wynne, some will certainly be like Tahrone.

It's evidence that there are free mages in a kingdom that isn't ruled by mages.

Again, you are either missing or purposely avoiding my points.

[Palidane]

Silfren wrote...
I am sick of people trying to make comparisons between the peasantry/nobility and mages/Templars.  How many peasants did you see in Ferelden who had hateful, miserable lives?  How many nobles do you see acting with total disregard to the peasantry versus those who give something of a damn?  How many peasants do you see regarding the lives of mages with drooling envy, since mages have it so awesome, what with free food, education, and shelter?

I'd have a lot more respect for this argument if we had seen example after example after example of miserable peasants with unhappy, thankless existences--and not in the context of a Blight--and zero examples of peasants living any other kind of life.  We saw it in Kirkwall, with the caveat of the kind of history Kirkwall has had.  But we DIDN'T see it in Ferelden, so clearly it is not a Thedas-wide condition.

I didn't see that many peasants in Ferelden leading hateful, miserable lives. But then again, I didn't see many mages in the Ferelden Circle who seemed hateful and miserable. I would venture to say that there are a lot more peasants and mages who have accepted their lot than peasants/mages bristling with anger and ready to start killing some nobles/templars.

Not every Mage sits around all day whining about the injustice of the Circle.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, they are seers, highly respected by the people of Rivain.[/quote]
I bet the Magisters are highly respected in Tevinter too. [/quote]
Are mages ruling the kingdom of Rivain? No? Then I don't see the comparison.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The humans who raped his daughter and murdered his son were cursed. And he used the Spirit of the Forest - not a demon from the Fade. [/quote]
No one cares about those humans, the innocents were the ones who got bitten by them and turned into mindless monsters for no reason. I would have understood if Zathrian just massacred them all, but even you can't defend that curse. [/quote]
While an entire population of men, women, and children are endangered in Kirkwall because templars have dominion over mages in the name of religion. I see mages and non-mages capable of horrible things.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
Also, I think "Spirit of the Forest" is just a name given by the Dalish, and I'm not sure she counts as an actual Spirit. [/quote]
It's not just a name. The Poet Tree references the missing spirit of the Forest.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Meredith managed a higher body count in Kirkwall because templars have dominion over mages by divine right, and Meredith could legally execute hundreds of innocent men, women, and children for something they didn't do. That's not even counting her death squad. [/quote]
A, Meredith was completely insane. B, two wrongs don't make a right. Meredith's murders do not excuse the murders of a young Keeper commited years ago and hundreds of miles away. [/quote]
Meredith's actions demonstrate how dire things can be for mages, even when they are innocent, with the Chantry having absolute authority over them.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.
Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???[/quote] 
Dealing with demons is foolish, in every form. [/quote]
That's precisely what The Warden could do in Origins. And how is it foolish when Audacity is trapped in a totem? Dangerous to no one, until Marethari released it.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
And while I haven't looked up every outcome of that quest, I have only been betrayed by Merril and Isabela before. I apologise if my information was innaccurate. [/quote]
Everyone but Anders betrays you to one of the demons. In a matter of seconds. Because the Plot Says So.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
You know who got Marethari killed? Marethari. You don't blame someone  for the actions of another person.
And you know who was the only person who studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard? Merrill. Why should Merrill listen to anyone who is completely ignorant of the Eluvian when she actually did the research?
Furthermore, please stop acting like blood magic is evil. Duncan mentions that Grey Warden mages use blood magic. The phylacteries are blood magic. The Joining Ritual is blood magic. Finn used blood magic to locate the Eluvian.[/quote]
Marethari died protecting Merril. [/quote]
No, she died trying to kill Merrill as an abomination.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
I never once got the feeling that Merril was an expert or had any clue what the hell she was walking into. Marethari was far older than her and had been researching Dalish lore before Merril was born. [/quote]
Marethari admits she isn't familiar with the Eluvian; Merrill studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated infiormation from the shard. Marethari jumps from one baseless assumption to another between Acts II and III. I see no reason to trust Marethari's speculations when they are wildly inconsistent, and have no basis. In fact, her theory about Audacity escaping through the restored Eluvian probably came from Audacity.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
And no, I still maintain blood magic is, if not precisely evil in of itself, ridiculously dangerous and incredibly malevolent and all kinds of bad. I don't support Wardens who use Blood Magic, the Joining was a desperate measure created in the utmost desperate of times, the same is true of phylacteries (plus Templars are not mages and can't do the big blood magic), and Finn did not use Blood Magic. Blood was a component, but was not powering the spell. [/quote]
Finn asked everyone to keep it a secret because that flimsy excuse wouldn't work on anyone.
[quote]Palidane wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Avvar, the Chasind, the Dalish, the kingdom of Rivain, and even Haven don't emulate Tevinter, despite having free mages. [/quote]
We know almost nothing about the Avvar and Chasind, I've countered the Dalish, we have conflicting information on Rivain, and Haven? Seriously? [/quote]
The point is that none of those societies emulate Tevinter.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 19 avril 2013 - 05:28 .

[Sir JK]

Guys (and gals)! We've done this a thousand times before... we're just throwing moralistic arguments at one another, usually based on nothing but our own perceptions or ideas. While I agree that the topic is an interesting one to discuss... we're not really discussing it anymore. We're just repeating what we "know" ad infinitum.

As I actually from time to time enjoy these topics, I suggest that we all agree to take them to the next level.
And source everything. You make a claim? Provide the rest of us with where you got it from. So that we can look for ourselves.
A certain codex entry mentioned it? Mention which one.
You read it in a book? Mention which and roughly where.
Anders said so? Which discussion and preferably which dialogue prompt.
Gaider wrote it? Dig up the actual quote.

And if you cannot do this? Then the claim is null and void. Interpretations are fine as long as their root is in actual lore (which must be shown). But don't mention things you cannot back up and don't respond to things that aren't.

To follow my own suggestion:
For instance, the rivaini seers are brought up as a positive example of free mages that are fairly popular. As mentioned in codex entry: rivain.
However, codex entry: Harrowing mentions the rivaini circle and in Asunder when the mages convene the Darsmuid (which is in Rivain) is mentioned to have been annulled just prior to the summoning to the college of enchanters. Furthermore, Isabela mentions in DA2 when you talk to her about her upbringing that her mother pretended to be a seer. Finally, the Qunari and Exalted March entries in the codex seem to state that northern Rivain is very much Qunari, though the exact status of mages in those areas is not mentioned.
So which status mages has and the degree in which they practise magic in Rivain seem very ambigous.

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Palidane wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Actually, they are seers, highly respected by the people of Rivain.

I bet the Magisters are highly respected in Tevinter too.

Are mages ruling the kingdom of Rivain? No? Then I don't see the comparison.

That's fine, I'll explain it to you.
Seers are respected in Rivain but magisters are respected in Tevinter and templars are rspected in Andrastean Thedas. The simple fact that people are respected, doesn't mean that these people are incapable of bringing harm to others.

[Palidane]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think we're both talking past each other. My point was that there are no societies where mages are treated as perfectly equal but abominations and blood magic and so on is not a problem. Rivain is a theological warzone, and we have little information on it. We know very little about the Chasind and Avvar. Every single Dalish clan we've met so far has had a mage kill a ton of innocent people. Don't even get me started on Tevinter. While yes, mundane people can have a similar body count as mages, the difference is in scale. It would have taken an entire army of commited, skilled attackers to bring down Castle Redcliffe, but one untrained mage managed to do it in a week. The entire Dalish clan would have had to band together to kill those merchants, instead of one pissed off Keeper. Your average mage as 100 times the power of your average straight, and I don't think we can allow these demigods to roam about unaccounted for. Not all of them can resist the enticement of demons, and not all of them are paragons of virtue.

As for Marathari, I'd rather not get into that. I thought that whole debacle was horribly written and incredibly confusing, and I would prefer to just move on. Come to think of it, that's a pretty good metaphor for Dragon Age II as a whole.

Modifié par Palidane, 19 avril 2013 - 05:51 .

[Althix]

@ Sir JK but this is not fun. Throwing our selfs on canon is just boring. besides there is no strong canon in da.
Let say Sten is not Arishok, but Arishok is Arishok. However in a book Sten is Arishok. Or Sten will be Arishok because in other guy/girl playthrough Arishok was killed by Hawke. Anders/Vengeance killed a girl in the caves and later he was killed by Champion after Chantry explosion. On the other hand Champion saved the girl and spared Anders after Chantry explosion.

Even wh40k lore have so many flaws and contradictions and lore conflicts that it makes you feel bad. Not to mention a half made half borrowed lore for pc game such as DA.

Also - even if we had a strong canon to look upon all conversations or debates will end like:
person a - what if...?
person b - no, rtfm!
boring isn't it?

Besides, entire debate is based on horribly written DA2 plot. add to that personal preferences and moral level of each participant and we have a decent conversation. Just look at this - i was working for a day, and there is already 3 more pages of conversations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.

Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???

Considering that Merrill is the only one of your companions who have had trainning specifically to resist demon temptation, I'd say that yes, we can villify her for it. Because obviously she is a ****** poor mage, who should have been tranquilized the second her magic manifested. The other companions can be excused, since they have no way of knowing how to handle themselves within the Fade, except Vengeance (and Vengeance doesn't betray you, you betray him in this quest). Merrill just shows her incompetence.

[WardenWade]

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I am sick of people trying to make comparisons between the peasantry/nobility and mages/Templars.  How many peasants did you see in Ferelden who had hateful, miserable lives?  How many nobles do you see acting with total disregard to the peasantry versus those who give something of a damn?  How many peasants do you see regarding the lives of mages with drooling envy, since mages have it so awesome, what with free food, education, and shelter?

I'd have a lot more respect for this argument if we had seen example after example after example of miserable peasants with unhappy, thankless existences--and not in the context of a Blight--and zero examples of peasants living any other kind of life.  We saw it in Kirkwall, with the caveat of the kind of history Kirkwall has had.  But we DIDN'T see it in Ferelden, so clearly it is not a Thedas-wide condition.

I didn't see that many peasants in Ferelden leading hateful, miserable lives. But then again, I didn't see many mages in the Ferelden Circle who seemed hateful and miserable. I would venture to say that there are a lot more peasants and mages who have accepted their lot than peasants/mages bristling with anger and ready to start killing some nobles/templars.

Not every Mage sits around all day whining about the injustice of the Circle.

I apologize if this is diverging from the original topic too much, but by way of comparison, would you consider the city elves as peasants in this case?  We don't see a lot of the life of the average (human) peasant, though it is likely as difficult as anyone's in Thedas, but we can see that life in the alienages is about as miserable and thankless as it gets on the surface.  Most city elves are locked down and preyed upon much as it is implied mages are preyed upon, are treated as lesser beings, and I was under the impression they might indeed look with some envy on life in the Circle.  Indeed, David Gaider mentions here that elven mages would likely be most prominent in the Loyalist faction, and I get the impression that it may in part be because if the Circles fall they will be forced back into the inferior alienages.

Modifié par WardenWade, 19 avril 2013 - 01:13 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.

Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???

Considering that Merrill is the only one of your companions who have had trainning specifically to resist demon temptation, I'd say that yes, we can villify her for it. Because obviously she is a ****** poor mage, who should have been tranquilized the second her magic manifested. The other companions can be excused, since they have no way of knowing how to handle themselves within the Fade, except Vengeance (and Vengeance doesn't betray you, you betray him in this quest). Merrill just shows her incompetence.

I don't see how you can vilify Merrill for it when every companion is railroaded into betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds. A ludicrous offer is made, and they accept it within seconds, because it's a moronic quest. It's ridiculous, unrealistic, and inconsistent with Origins and Awakening.

[Dave of Canada]

WardenWade wrote...

By way of comparison, would you consider the city elves as peasants in this case?

Somewhat, yes. They're abused and no-one cares just like the peasantry but they've got it worse because even the peasants themselves abuse the city elves, burning down their homes and stealing everything they own and no-one lifts a finger to stop them.

That and they're culled more frequently because no-one gives a **** about them, they were culled... two? Maybe three times in Origins? Which was pretty great for them only to die from disease or be sold to slavers immediately afterwards. 

Human peasantry may be abused by the nobility and the guardsmen, left to starve on the streets and such but it's far more infrequent because elves are available for the same type of punishment with less people caring because any time the elves complain, they're culled by nobility (which happens to humans too but probably far more infrequently).

Elven Circle Mages have food, education, shelter and warm clothes. They've got no reason to want to leave the Circle because they'd gain nothing, lose everything and probably be culled shortly afterwards, mage or no.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 19 avril 2013 - 01:18 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Correction: Merrill spoke to a demon sundered from the Fade and trapped in a totem.

Also, are you seriously vilifying Merrill for the actions done in a quest where every companion betrays you???

Considering that Merrill is the only one of your companions who have had trainning specifically to resist demon temptation, I'd say that yes, we can villify her for it. Because obviously she is a ****** poor mage, who should have been tranquilized the second her magic manifested. The other companions can be excused, since they have no way of knowing how to handle themselves within the Fade, except Vengeance (and Vengeance doesn't betray you, you betray him in this quest). Merrill just shows her incompetence.

I don't see how you can vilify Merrill for it when every companion is railroaded into betraying Hawke in a matter of seconds. A ludicrous offer is made, and they accept it within seconds, because it's a moronic quest. It's ridiculous, unrealistic, and inconsistent with Origins and Awakening.

Except that none of the companions accept by free will. THe demons each influence the companions, and they succumb. In most of the cases it can be excused because frankly, they havn't gotten the trainning to resist such. Merrill on the other hand does have the trainning, and she frequently commune with demons, yet she succumbs. Incompetence at its finest.

[Silfren]

WardenWade wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I am sick of people trying to make comparisons between the peasantry/nobility and mages/Templars.  How many peasants did you see in Ferelden who had hateful, miserable lives?  How many nobles do you see acting with total disregard to the peasantry versus those who give something of a damn?  How many peasants do you see regarding the lives of mages with drooling envy, since mages have it so awesome, what with free food, education, and shelter?

I'd have a lot more respect for this argument if we had seen example after example after example of miserable peasants with unhappy, thankless existences--and not in the context of a Blight--and zero examples of peasants living any other kind of life.  We saw it in Kirkwall, with the caveat of the kind of history Kirkwall has had.  But we DIDN'T see it in Ferelden, so clearly it is not a Thedas-wide condition.

I didn't see that many peasants in Ferelden leading hateful, miserable lives. But then again, I didn't see many mages in the Ferelden Circle who seemed hateful and miserable. I would venture to say that there are a lot more peasants and mages who have accepted their lot than peasants/mages bristling with anger and ready to start killing some nobles/templars.

Not every Mage sits around all day whining about the injustice of the Circle.

I apologize if this is diverging from the original topic too much, but by way of comparison, would you consider the city elves as peasants in this case?  We don't see a lot of the life of the average (human) peasant, though it is likely as difficult as anyone's in Thedas, but we can see that life in the alienages is about as miserable and thankless as it gets on the surface.  Most city elves are locked down and preyed upon much as it is implied mages are preyed upon, are treated as lesser beings, and I was under the impression they might indeed look with some envy on life in the Circle.  Indeed, David Gaider mentions here that elven mages would likely be most prominent in the Loyalist faction, and I get the impression that it may in part be because if the Circles fall they will be forced back into the inferior alienages.

I think the city elves are something of a separate, if related, discussion.  They are peasants, obviously, but they're a special class unto themselves, specifically due to their ghettoization.  They're not an integrated portion of the larger peasantry population. 

[WardenWade]

Dave of Canada wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

By way of comparison, would you consider the city elves as peasants in this case?

Somewhat, yes. They're abused and no-one cares just like the peasantry but they've got it worse because even the peasants themselves abuse the city elves, burning down their homes and stealing everything they own and no-one lifts a finger to stop them.

That and they're culled more frequently because no-one gives a **** about them, they were culled... two? Maybe three times in Origins? Which was pretty great for them only to die from disease or be sold to slavers immediately afterwards. 

Human peasantry may be abused by the nobility and the guardsmen, left to starve on the streets and such but it's far more infrequent because elves are available for the same type of punishment with less people caring because any time the elves complain, they're culled by nobility (which happens to humans too but probably far more infrequently).

Elven Circle Mages have food, education, shelter and warm clothes. They've got no reason to want to leave the Circle because they'd gain nothing, lose everything and probably be culled shortly afterwards, mage or no.

These are good points. 

**POSSIBLE SPOILERS**

I know there was a purge on the Denerim alienage prior to the events of Origins.  Speaking to Soris in the CE Origin you learn his parents were killed then.  And then Howe's purge and the Tevinter slavers.  And food riots and a possible future purge by Anora in the epilogue, if she rules alone. 

**END SPOILERS**

As you said, human peasants can have a terrible existence as well, but in theory may have some rights that can be enforced on their behalf.  Thanks for the discussion, Dave!

[WardenWade]

Silfren wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I am sick of people trying to make comparisons between the peasantry/nobility and mages/Templars.  How many peasants did you see in Ferelden who had hateful, miserable lives?  How many nobles do you see acting with total disregard to the peasantry versus those who give something of a damn?  How many peasants do you see regarding the lives of mages with drooling envy, since mages have it so awesome, what with free food, education, and shelter?

I'd have a lot more respect for this argument if we had seen example after example after example of miserable peasants with unhappy, thankless existences--and not in the context of a Blight--and zero examples of peasants living any other kind of life.  We saw it in Kirkwall, with the caveat of the kind of history Kirkwall has had.  But we DIDN'T see it in Ferelden, so clearly it is not a Thedas-wide condition.

I didn't see that many peasants in Ferelden leading hateful, miserable lives. But then again, I didn't see many mages in the Ferelden Circle who seemed hateful and miserable. I would venture to say that there are a lot more peasants and mages who have accepted their lot than peasants/mages bristling with anger and ready to start killing some nobles/templars.

Not every Mage sits around all day whining about the injustice of the Circle.

I apologize if this is diverging from the original topic too much, but by way of comparison, would you consider the city elves as peasants in this case?  We don't see a lot of the life of the average (human) peasant, though it is likely as difficult as anyone's in Thedas, but we can see that life in the alienages is about as miserable and thankless as it gets on the surface.  Most city elves are locked down and preyed upon much as it is implied mages are preyed upon, are treated as lesser beings, and I was under the impression they might indeed look with some envy on life in the Circle.  Indeed, David Gaider mentions here that elven mages would likely be most prominent in the Loyalist faction, and I get the impression that it may in part be because if the Circles fall they will be forced back into the inferior alienages.

I think the city elves are something of a separate, if related, discussion.  They are peasants, obviously, but they're a special class unto themselves, specifically due to their ghettoization.  They're not an integrated portion of the larger peasantry population. 

That's definitely a fair assessment, Silfren.  As you said, the alienages are semi-autonomous and not precisely part of the broader human community.  Though it is a similar situation, I imagine they lack some basic rights for example that the meanest peasant could at least attempt to enforce.  Thanks!

Modifié par WardenWade, 19 avril 2013 - 01:59 .

[azarhal]

Sir JK wrote...

Guys (and gals)! We've done this a thousand times before... we're just throwing moralistic arguments at one another, usually based on nothing but our own perceptions or ideas. While I agree that the topic is an interesting one to discuss... we're not really discussing it anymore. We're just repeating what we "know" ad infinitum.

As I actually from time to time enjoy these topics, I suggest that we all agree to take them to the next level.
And source everything. You make a claim? Provide the rest of us with where you got it from. So that we can look for ourselves.
A certain codex entry mentioned it? Mention which one.
You read it in a book? Mention which and roughly where.
Anders said so? Which discussion and preferably which dialogue prompt.
Gaider wrote it? Dig up the actual quote.

And if you cannot do this? Then the claim is null and void. Interpretations are fine as long as their root is in actual lore (which must be shown). But don't mention things you cannot back up and don't respond to things that aren't.

To follow my own suggestion:
For instance, the rivaini seers are brought up as a positive example of free mages that are fairly popular. As mentioned in codex entry: rivain.
However, codex entry: Harrowing mentions the rivaini circle and in Asunder when the mages convene the Darsmuid (which is in Rivain) is mentioned to have been annulled just prior to the summoning to the college of enchanters. Furthermore, Isabela mentions in DA2 when you talk to her about her upbringing that her mother pretended to be a seer. Finally, the Qunari and Exalted March entries in the codex seem to state that northern Rivain is very much Qunari, though the exact status of mages in those areas is not mentioned.
So which status mages has and the degree in which they practise magic in Rivain seem very ambigous.

World of Thedas might be able to clear some of these up.

I saw a preview page that mention the mages in Nevarra. They are well organized, wealthy and hold political sway. Pushing the boundries of magic and necromancy doesn't sound like something that is Chantry-approved...

[The Hierophant]

Lobselvith8 wrote...

This is the reason Alain joined Thrask's rebellion. Don't you recall his dialogue when Hawke asks why he joined Thrask?

Since i uninstalled DA2 i checked youtube and watched a few playthroughs of "Best Served Cold", and in non of the vids that i watched did Alain mention what you stated. If this is from dialogue with Alain after the quest can you or anyone else post a direct link?

[Nightdragon8]

I love the fact that people keep Saying the chantry when it was prefectly clear the the grand cleric wasn't able to control .Meridth the Templars didn't seem to answer to the grand cleric at all

While yes they follow the chant they where not a part of it

[lil yonce]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I love the fact that people keep Saying the chantry when it was prefectly clear the the grand cleric wasn't able to control Meridth the Templars didn't seem to answer to the grand cleric at all  While yes they follow the chant they where not a part of it

Preach.