254 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Fix the whole name.

Fix no aspect of the character.

See?  I can do it, too.

Just pretend the whole name isn't fixed and your game won't have changed in any significant way from how you already experience it.  Claim anyone calling Sylvius by the name "Joe" is simply crazy or wrong, like you do whenever there's a miscommunication with the silent protagonist.

Meanwhile I won't be forced to listen to clumsily overused titles like "Warden" or "Commander."  

I win, your experience is unchanged.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 avril 2013 - 11:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Just pretend the whole name isn't fixed and your game won't have changed in any significant way from how you already experience it.  Claim anyone calling Sylvius by the name "Joe" is simply crazy or wrong, like you do whenever there's a miscommunication with the silent protagonist.

As you well know, I almost never had to do that.  I simply offered it as a solution to those who insisted that they needed to continue believing they could read NPC minds.

There's no way to know whether there has been a miscommunication (assuming such a thing is even a sensical concept).

Having NPCs constantly refer to Joe despite the lack of anyone in the room named Joe makes for some awfully one-note roleplaying, as the NPCs will never make any sense.  How do you suggest I replay that game with a different character and get a different result?

Meanwhile I won't be forced to listen to clumsily overused titles like "Warden" or "Commander."

You shouldn't have to listen to them, anyway.  As I've made quite clear, I don't think people address each other by name or by title in natural conversation.

Read a play.  Characters there don't address each other by name, because whom they are addressing is denoted in the play through stage directions, not through actual lines.  That games use the characters' names is an artifact of literature - an artifact that has no place in cinematic games.

If BioWare wants these games to be cinematic so badly, why then do they cling to this need to have the characters address each other by name (or title) all the time, like characters in novels do?  This isn't a novel.  Having characters address each other by name (or title) made perfect sense in games without voice-overs, but now with every line voiced and acted, it's no longer necessary.

I win.  Your experience is improved.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 16 avril 2013 - 12:03 .

[upsettingshorts]

Clearly, the answer is a toggle.

This is me not getting into another discussion with Sylvius about the practice of human interaction.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 avril 2013 - 12:10 .

[lil yonce]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

How games are made and who they're made for have changed. I hadn't been born in 1989 and was five years old in 1997. New audience. I wouldn't play Bioware games if they hadn't changed at all from a by-gone era of gaming.

I didn't say the games shouldn't have changed at all.  I said they shouldn't flatly prohibit the playstyle around which they used to be based.

Shooters aren't exactly the same as they were in 1993 (when DOOM was released), but the fundamental gameplay (maneouvre from a first-person perspective - target and trigger weapons in real time) hasn't changed at all.  It's been tweaked - a lot - but that core is still there.

Roleplaying games shouldn't have changed more fundamentally than that.

Like all games RPGs must change with the times. Audio and visuals receive far more emphasis today than in 1989 and console gaming is an important market. That's worked fine for the five hour action packed FPS but has changed the twenty+ hour action lacking, character focused RPG.

Its strange when your character is the only one who doesn't speak and is too frequently addressed by title. Why should they be this nameless, voiceless character when every other major character is noticeably unique?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 16 avril 2013 - 12:37 .

[DarkEnigma1115]

 A good long and catchy surname would be, for me: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
Hahaha. But in all seriousness, a togglable surname would be most welcome, I found it irritating in Dragon Age 2 where on my first play through, I spent literally half an hour thinking up a name and when I played, they just called me Hawke. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

How games are made and who they're made for have changed. I hadn't been born in 1989 and was five years old in 1997. New audience. I wouldn't play Bioware games if they hadn't changed at all from a by-gone era of gaming.

I didn't say the games shouldn't have changed at all. I said they shouldn't flatly prohibit the playstyle around which they used to be based.

Shooters aren't exactly the same as they were in 1993 (when DOOM was released), but the fundamental gameplay (maneouvre from a first-person perspective - target and trigger weapons in real time) hasn't changed at all. It's been tweaked - a lot - but that core is still there.

Roleplaying games shouldn't have changed more fundamentally than that.

Like all games RPGs must change with the times. Audio and visuals receive far more emphasis today than in 1989 and console gaming is an important market. That's worked fine for the five hour action packed FPS but has changed the twenty+ hour action lacking RPG.

Its strange when your character is the only one who doesn't speak and is too frequently addressed by title. Why should they be this nameless, voiceless character when every other major character is noticably unique?

I disagree, the best RPGs for me are those wherein the PC doesn't speak, or is addressed with naught but just a title, since it lets me immerse more into it.

Plus the best RPG(s) for me, is still, and will always be, The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, and all it's successors, namely, Oblivion and Skyrim. But, the one thing they have in common is that they are based on the age old tradition of RPGs which other series/games are slowly losing.

Modifié par DarkEnigma1115, 16 avril 2013 - 12:38 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Read a play.  Characters there don't address each other by name, because whom they are addressing is denoted in the play through stage directions, not through actual lines.  That games use the characters' names is an artifact of literature - an artifact that has no place in cinematic games.

This playwright seems to disagree.

TYBALT

What, art thou drawn among these heartless hinds?

Turn thee, Benvolio, look upon thy death.

BENVOLIO

I do but keep the peace: put up thy sword,

Or manage it to part these men with me.

and later...

BENVOLIO

It was. What sadness lengthens Romeo's hours?

ROMEO

Not having that, which, having, makes them short.

And later still...

BENVOLIO

Why, Romeo, art thou mad?

ROMEO

Not mad, but bound more than a mad-man is;

Shut up in prison, kept without my food,

Whipp'd and tormented and--God-den, good fellow.

[lil yonce]

DarkEnigma1115 wrote...

I disagree, the best RPGs for me are those wherein the PC doesn't speak, or is addressed with naught but just a title, since it lets me immerse more into it. 

Plus the best RPG(s) for me, is still, and will always be, The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, and all it's successors, namely, Oblivion and Skyrim. But, the one thing they have in common is that they are based on the age old tradition of RPGs which other series/games are slowly losing.

The Elder Scrolls is meant to be played in first person and (Skyrim I know) has mainstorylines just as short as any FPS. Its not so much about the story and certainly not interacting with fleshed out characters and companions throughout like DA. Its instead primarily about first person, lone character action and adventure. Different formula.

[MerinTB]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Clearly, the answer is a toggle.

I know this is a joke, but you are just about right on something.

Like all the old cRPGs, which had a party of pre-made characters you could use, BioWare RPGs could have the pre-defined MC, with voice and appearance set.  That could be the default play, and probably what most people would choose (you know, still being allowed to advance the character and tweak stats and such.)  But then the game could ALSO give the option of creating your own character, which THEN has no voice-over but just text for his/her dialog.  This would require ONE extra reading of some lines for the dialog of NPCs - like you have one for female and male pronouns, now you would need just one with no "Hawke" or "Shepard" or whichever name is used for the pre-defined MC.  As a result of doing this, just like they typically avoid gender pronouns as much as possible in writing dialog, they would now avoid addressing the character by name more, too, to avoid too many extra line reads.

It would be the best solution for both parties with LITTLE additional cost.  For those who want the game to acknowledge their character by voice-over and other such that a pre-defined character allows, this aspect can be built up MORE as there'd be one MC to do for it.

For those who don't want this, it is little different than the change of gender and turning on of sub-titles for the MC.  Now the player is allowed to make their own character, satisfying that crowd, as well.

The players making their own character lose a bunch of NPC and game reactivity that the pre-defined MC allows, but I think it's a trade-off that said players would happily make.

And before "added work" gets brought up on how this would take so much more design work, all it would really take is the same kind of dialog omission that story choices make - you tag all the pre-defined character dialog and stuff with a flag similar to gender or class or "did you side with the mages or the templars", and then have the game check the dialog against that flag, with the game omitting the pre-defined character dialog due if the player made their own character.

[GodOfFailik]

Mineev ?
That sounds very foreign yet satisfying.

[Zeldrik1389]

Muffin. Name after my mother in law's epic cat )) I would love to hear npcs call the Inquisitor "Mr. Muffin" =)))))))))

[lil yonce]

Triché.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 16 avril 2013 - 03:37 .

[mllrthyme]

Ashe.

[Poquimo]

Harbinger.

[GodOfFailik]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Triche.

What you don't like the name Mineev ?
Actaully I am with you, Triche sounds good if the Inquisitor is a woman.

[lil yonce]

GodOfFailik wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Triche.

What you don't like the name Mineev ?
Actaully I am with you, Triche sounds good if the Inquisitor is a woman.

I'm not certain how Mineev is pronounced.  

[Zeta42]

D'Artagnan.

[FireAndBlood]

Blackadder!

[Little Princess Peach]

Sparkles

[BrowncoatN7]

Ximénez, Biggles or Fang depending on your background choices.

[Voodoo2015]

Whyme

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Read a play.  Characters there don't address each other by name, because whom they are addressing is denoted in the play through stage directions, not through actual lines.  That games use the characters' names is an artifact of literature - an artifact that has no place in cinematic games.

This playwright seems to disagree.

TYBALT

What, art thou drawn among these heartless hinds?

Turn thee, Benvolio, look upon thy death.

BENVOLIO

I do but keep the peace: put up thy sword,

Or manage it to part these men with me.

and later...

BENVOLIO

It was. What sadness lengthens Romeo's hours?

ROMEO

Not having that, which, having, makes them short.

And later still...

BENVOLIO

Why, Romeo, art thou mad?

ROMEO

Not mad, but bound more than a mad-man is;

Shut up in prison, kept without my food,

Whipp'd and tormented and--God-den, good fellow.

To be fair, Romeo nad Juliet was written in Iambic Pentameter, which is not exactly everyday speech. Shakespearae occassionally needed to pad the syllables of his lines.

Contrast it with a play written with normal prose, like Death of a Salesman.

[Wulfram]

Names aren't really needed when you're addessing someone to their face, but they are needed when talking about them to others.

I don't think a set surname is needed if you get a title early on - there aren't that many occasions when surname fits but title doesn't. I can't recall any occasions when the lack of set name particularly bothered me in Origins, though it helped that at least the Warden could "say" their name when introducing themselves.

Occasionally lack of first name can be awkward with LIs, but I wouldn't remove the ability to choose just for that.

[lil yonce]

lament.ballad wrote...

Ximénez, Biggles or Fang depending on your background choices.

Already suggested. 

FireandBlood wrote...

Blackadder!

Also already suggested. 

-----
And please no more Torquemada for the record. Suggested three times. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, Romeo nad Juliet was written in Iambic Pentameter, which is not exactly everyday speech. Shakespearae occassionally needed to pad the syllables of his lines.

Contrast it with a play written with normal prose, like Death of a Salesman.

This playwright also disagrees with Sylvius.

Act 1, Scene 1:

WILLY: Did Biff say anything after I went this morning?

LINDA: You shouldn’t have criticised him, Willy, You mustn’t lose your temper with him.

Act 2, Scene 1:

HOWARD: I don’t want you to represent us. I’ve been meaning to tell you for a long time now.

WILLY: Howard, are you firing me?

HOWARD: I think you need a good long rest, Willy.

WILLY: Howard...

HOWARD: And when you feel better, come back, and we’ll see if we can work something out.

[Fast Jimmy]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be fair, Romeo nad Juliet was written in Iambic Pentameter, which is not exactly everyday speech. Shakespearae occassionally needed to pad the syllables of his lines.

Contrast it with a play written with normal prose, like Death of a Salesman.

This playwright also disagrees with Sylvius.

Act 1, Scene 1:

WILLY: Did Biff say anything after I went this morning?

LINDA: You shouldn’t have criticised him, Willy, You mustn’t lose your temper with him.

Act 2, Scene 1:

HOWARD: I don’t want you to represent us. I’ve been meaning to tell you for a long time now.

WILLY: Howard, are you firing me?

HOWARD: I think you need a good long rest, Willy.

WILLY: Howard...

HOWARD: And when you feel better, come back, and we’ll see if we can work something out.

Well, I guess I walked into that.

EDIT: Not to move the goalposts or anything, but I'd be curious to see the amount of times characters are referred to by their names in a television drama. The only reason I bring this up is that the volume of dialouge in a Bioware video game dwarfs that of a play or a movie. Its only real correlation would be, roughly, a season's worth of TV.

Again, not trying to change the argument, just trying to continue the conversation.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 17 avril 2013 - 12:12 .