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[Rinshikai10]

This thread is for the general discussion and theories of the current Divine of the Chantry Justinia V.  If you have a theory or a topic that you wish discuss, go for it.

Below is a topic that got my attention after DG talked about DotS.
 
Around two to three months ago, we learned that the Divine in Dawn of the Seeker is actually Beatrix III. Who was nearly killed by Blood Mages using dragons.

After Grand Cleric Callista, Knight Commander Martel, and Frenic fail in their attempt to kill her. Beatrix becomes very fearful of Mages, regardless if they are from the Circle or not, as shown in Asunder.

This makes me wonder why she would put Dorothea forward, if she was only a Revered Mother.From my understanding the Grand Clerics are the only people eligible for the position. However, I could be wrong.

Her dying of a stroke also seems a little strange. I know that she was old but it feel like fowl play was involved by Dorothea.

Why would a Divine fearful of Mages, select a Divine that is sympathetic to them?

I wonder how this plays out in DA3I.

Any thoughts?

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 15 juillet 2013 - 01:25 .

[Knight of Dane]

I hope she really actually just died from a stroke, everythign doesn't need to have a sinister background.

[Chiramu]

There's a new Divine, read Asunder; Dawn of the Seeker is old in the timeline.

[Rinshikai10]

Chiramu wrote...

There's a new Divine, read Asunder; Dawn of the Seeker is old in the timeline.

Just to be clear, you do know that Dorothea is Divine Justinia?

[Renmiri1]

Orlais is a hot bed of intrigue and noblemen and women are always pushing their competitors away with some "extra help" from bards and their daggers and poisons.

Beatrix being assassinated is not that far fetched, but with all the treachery around Orlais, it could have been anyone, not just pro-mages or mages. As for she choosing Dorothea, maybe she was conned by a pro-mage infiltrated among her close circle ?

[Xilizhra]

**** the Divine.

What was the topic about again? Oh, conspiracies. Who can say? It seems unlikely that Dorothea would stick her neck out that far, however.

[Rinshikai10]

@Renmiri
Except the three from DotS I can't think of any other individual besides Dorothea that would have a motive to kill Beatrix.

@Xilizhra
Could Dorothea have used Leliana without having to risk herself?

[KENNY4753]

well I made a thread a few months back how I suspect Dorothea/Justinia (whichever you prefer to call her) is actually a Blood Mage.

A lot of nonsense straw grasping went into my theory but I do believe she is a blood mage who could have used blood magic to convince Beatrix to put her name foward before killing her.

[azarhal]

You know, while Beatrice was saved, almost all the Grand Clerics were killed in 9:22. Dorothea might have been promoted between Leliana's Song and 9:34, the year Beatrice died.

Beatrice was a very old lady in 9:34 too, so natural cause might not have been out of the question. What is more interesting is that she gave the name of Dorothea to someone when she died. That person then told the Grand Clerics. Who was it? If someone is looking for fool play that is the place a good place to look at. Strokes tend to kill people in a few minutes, so it have to be someone close to her at the moment of death.

My first choice would be Cassandra, simply because she's the only character we know in Beatrice's entourage. Which would remove any sort of fool play. Unless there is a Nevarran plot hiden behind it (and Cassandra have to be a nationalist for that to happen. Thinking of it, higher up in the Chantry seems like the perfect place for spying on Orlais). Might I add that Leliana's Song was about Dorothea having ultra secret Orlesian military documents stolen from her and planted in the Denerim's palace to increase Orlesian/Ferelden relationship. It was even suggested that Marjolain was selling secrets to Nevarra in DA:O. hmm. The mages even moved to Andoral's Reach, which appear to be in Nevarra and that country doesn't persecute mages as much as the other Chantry country do (minus Tevinter).

I bet BioWare haven't though about it that much though....

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

**** the Divine.

What was the topic about again? Oh, conspiracies. Who can say? It seems unlikely that Dorothea would stick her neck out that far, however.

In the words of Fiona. I don't think Divine Justina V is pro-mage; she is simply willing to give the mages more freedom to keep them under the heel of the Chantry. She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. I'm not really surprised she was selected for the position, and I don't think a sinister conspiracy is behind her ascent.

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

**** the Divine.

What was the topic about again? Oh, conspiracies. Who can say? It seems unlikely that Dorothea would stick her neck out that far, however.

In the words of Fiona. I don't think Divine Justina V is pro-mage; she is simply willing to give the mages more freedom to keep them under the heel of the Chantry. She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. I'm not really surprised she was selected for the position, and I don't think a sinister conspiracy is behind her ascent.

I have a self-imposed obligation to open any of my statements about a topic relating to the Divine with that line. As for Justinia... it's possible that she's relatively pro-mage, a statement that doesn't actually mean much.

[Renmiri1]

Ya relatively pro mage in the sense that Atila the Hun is relatively against violence...

[lil yonce]

Beatrix didn't seem anti-mage in Dawn of the Seeker. She gives Galyan his props along with Cassandra lauding him as the, "heroic mage who fought beside her." At the very end she says, "a storm is coming," but I don't think that means she hates mages. I think that's just being prudent.

You can't just ignore such a bold display by apostates knowing they acted in a large group that could embolden other mages and almost brought you down. Plus her own people are unhappy with her over something about Kirkwall (not DA2) and scheming against her. Wanting more power for their Order, station etc and the trouble that brings when you talk about Templars with more power all around-- probably more of that on the way too. She has to be on the look out.

And she just seems senile in Asunder. Not anti-mage. She doesn't even know where she is when they bring her out. She thinks she's about to have lunch and not about to meet the new Enchanters in a formal ceremony so I don't read much into that.

EDIT: Deleted a sentence. Almost got my Divines mixed up. 

She seemed like a good person in Dawn of the Seeker. And since she was described as being on her last leg in Asunder I think her death by stroke is legitimate. Dorothea seems like a good person too and maybe Beatrix knew her as a pious, Maker-fearing individual and thought she'd make a good Divine-- in her rapidly deteriorating mind maybe she forgot about Justinia's scandalous past and didn't think about her views on Chantry politics and Mages and how that would affect everything going forward.

And I bet in her last years the clergy was running rampant under her. Probably getting away with whatever they wanted to with a weak Divine. Had it just like they wanted it. I know they have to be unhappy with Justinia coming in and calling shot that haven't been called in forever and trying to tinker with the balance of power concerning the Circle of Magi and Templars. There was even a hint in Asunder that maybe someone from the Templar Order or clergy helped that nutty Enchanter try to assassinate the Divine at the beginning of the book. Somebody in the Chantry likely wants Justinia dead.

Guess we'll find out come DA3.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 avril 2013 - 06:47 .

[Fredward]

I dunno man. But Dorothea seems like a lady with a helluva story to tell.

[Sir JK]

LobselVith8 wrote...

She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. .

Willing to? Or pressured to?
Contrary to popular belief, being the leader of a society does not mean you're free to dictate things at your whim. Those that do tend to have short reigns and earn the moniker "the mad".
Just because she ordered an exalted march on Kirkwall does not mean she's not pro-mage. It was certainly what the Chantry's conservative and militant side desired. Was it what she desired though? Or did she just not want to cross them right then and there? A small concession to prevent them from noticing the big change coming?

Big ships do not turn swiftly. And the Chantry is a huge ship indeed.

[Rinshikai10]

@Youth4ever I agree with you that she is senile, yet in that scene you are talking about as soon as word Mages was said she starts to panic, thing that the Mages may attack. Resulting in her attendants and two Templars trying to calm her down.

The events of DotS are likely very strong memories for her. I don't think she is very Anti-mage, but I believe that she is fearful of them after that event.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 15 avril 2013 - 06:40 .

[lil yonce]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

@Youth4ever I agree with you that she is senile, yet in that scene you are talking about as soon as word Mages was said she starts to panic, thing that the Mages may attack. Resulting in her attendants and two Templars trying to calm her down.

The events of DotS are likely very strong memories for her. I don't think she is very Anti-mage, but I believe that she is fearful of them after that event.

Yeah, but maybe her love for Dorothea won out or maybe she didn't even have a clue about how she felt about the Mages or maybe she wasn't thinking straight because she's a senile old woman when the choice is made. Don't know.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 avril 2013 - 03:35 .

[Daerog]

I agree with Knight of Dane.

Also, if Beatrix was "anti-mage" and she selected Justinia who is "pro-mage" then maybe the choice had nothing to do with the mage situation, maybe she thought Justinia has a better grasp of Andraste's teachings and thought that she was capable of the Divine's responsibility. The Chantry is more than just the overseers of the Circle.

Anyway, I wouldn't call either anti or pro mage, but Justinia does seem open to dialogue and doesn't see mages as some stereotypical caricature. Perhaps previous Divine's were too busy dealing with other matters and couldn't give as much attention to the Circles, but Justinia seems to make it a priority for her time as Divine. Not that it matters that much now since the Circle and Templars decided to end the discussion and get violent.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

**** the Divine.

What was the topic about again? Oh, conspiracies. Who can say? It seems unlikely that Dorothea would stick her neck out that far, however.

In the words of Fiona. I don't think Divine Justina V is pro-mage; she is simply willing to give the mages more freedom to keep them under the heel of the Chantry. She was willing to sack Kirkwall if the mages emancipated themselves from Meredith's dictatorship. I'm not really surprised she was selected for the position, and I don't think a sinister conspiracy is behind her ascent.

I have a self-imposed obligation to open any of my statements about a topic relating to the Divine with that line. As for Justinia... it's possible that she's relatively pro-mage, a statement that doesn't actually mean much.

Why? If you don't like her don't post. You don't need to force your views into every topic.

[Rinshikai10]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

I agree with Knight of Dane.

Also, if Beatrix was "anti-mage" and she selected Justinia who is "pro-mage" then maybe the choice had nothing to do with the mage situation, maybe she thought Justinia has a better grasp of Andraste's teachings and thought that she was capable of the Divine's responsibility. The Chantry is more than just the overseers of the Circle.

Anyway, I wouldn't call either anti or pro mage, but Justinia does seem open to dialogue and doesn't see mages as some stereotypical caricature. Perhaps previous Divine's were too busy dealing with other matters and couldn't give as much attention to the Circles, but Justinia seems to make it a priority for her time as Divine. Not that it matters that much now since the Circle and Templars decided to end the discussion and get violent.

Just to put in my two cents here, there is a possibility that Justinia, disbanded the Collage of Magi right after Fiona was elected (Asunder). I will agree that she is more open then many of the Divines we know about but, this decision to banned the Collage may say to the Circle that (I'm not going to listen to you.)

That decision to allow the Templars to crack down to maintain order, appears to have backfired. Given the Enchanters less reason to trust her. Making her research plan for reform useless.

This is just my opinion on the matter, but I believe that if she had talked to Fiona directly, she may have be able to gain some ground with the Mages.

[Heimdall]

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Just to put in my two cents here, there is a possibility that Justinia, disbanded the Collage of Magi right after Fiona was elected (Asunder). I will agree that she is more open then many of the Divines we know about but, this decision to banned the Collage may say to the Circle that (I'm not going to listen to you.)

That decision to allow the Templars to crack down to maintain order, appears to have backfired. Given the Enchanters less reason to trust her. Making her research plan for reform useless.

This is just my opinion on the matter, but I believe that if she had talked to Fiona directly, she may have be able to gain some ground with the Mages.

As I recall, it was Justinia's lenient intentions toward the Mages that led the Lord Seeker to break with the Chantry in the first place.  I don't recall her allowing them to crack down.

[Rinshikai10]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Rinshikai10 wrote...

Just to put in my two cents here, there is a possibility that Justinia, disbanded the Collage of Magi right after Fiona was elected (Asunder). I will agree that she is more open then many of the Divines we know about but, this decision to banned the Collage may say to the Circle that (I'm not going to listen to you.)

That decision to allow the Templars to crack down to maintain order, appears to have backfired. Given the Enchanters less reason to trust her. Making her research plan for reform useless.

This is just my opinion on the matter, but I believe that if she had talked to Fiona directly, she may have be able to gain some ground with the Mages.

As I recall, it was Justinia's lenient intentions toward the Mages that led the Lord Seeker to break with the Chantry in the first place.  I don't recall her allowing them to crack down.

Are you talking about Justinia sending Leliana to help the Mages escape? If I recall that happened because of the collage disbanding, and Justinia miscalculating how far things had gone.

When the Enchanters did not do as she and Wynne said. It shows they did not think things through or had prepared should the worse happen.

I may be using the word crackdown incorrectly. However,I recall she allowed the Templars to stop any and all Mage travel, and did not allow an Mage gathering for a year, without Templar oversight. in the name of maintaining order at their expense.


I know people will jump on me for this but, Justinia as a leader she leaves a great deal to be desired. I don't think she is a bad person, but she is far from a good leader IMHO.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 15 avril 2013 - 08:44 .

[Renmiri1]

Justinia >>>>> Beatrix

But agreed, she is a big improvement but that is not saying much since Beatrix was so incompetent.

[Rinshikai10]

I should have cleared this up in my first post. This discussion is not solely about conspiracies involving Justinia. The point of this was more about general discussion and theories about her.

If any of you have a topic or theory you want to share, go for it.

Modifié par Rinshikai10, 20 avril 2013 - 01:45 .